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Messsage #: 0
Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 16:01:00 -0700 From: "Larry Fish" Subject: Welcome Back! Hi Everybody, Now that the Compass Users Group has been reconstituted and a bunch of people have joined, I thought it would be a good time to send out an email. For those of you who have renewed your membership, welcome back. For those of you who are joining for the first time welcome also. A couple of announcements: A. COMPASS ARCHIVES. With the help of Roger Schuster and Paul Jorgenson, I was able to reconstruct the entire Compass User's group archive. The archive contains 180 message covering the time from July 2000 to December of 2005. The archive can be found here: http://www.fountainware.com/compass/groupmessages.htm It is all on one page, so by using the "Find" option in your browser, it is pretty easy to search. B. DEVELOPMENT. This has a relatively slow period for Compass development since I have been busy with work. My work load should slow down in the late Spring and I can get back to the long list of new Compass Features that I am working on. In spite of the lull, there have been five changes and bug fixes to Compass since the Nov-2005 release. The current version posted on the internet has a file date of Jan 21, 2006. C. FILE DATES. I added a new feature to Compass Download Web page that displays the file-date of each download. This makes it easy to see if you have the latest version. The feature uses Java Script, so you must have Java Script enabled to see the dates. The feature has been tested on Internet Explorer and Firefox and they both work fine. One problem I discovered is that it does not work with Opera. I have sent the Opera people a bug report and hopefully the problem will be fixed in a later version. (If anybody with Java Script and DOM experience under Opera has any ideas how to solve the problem, let me know.) D. COMPASS NEWSLETTER. For those who have not seen it, I have attached a copy of the Compass Newsletter I sent out a few months ago. Thanks again for all the Support. Larry Fish ==================================================================== COMPASS NEWSLETTER Judging from my emails, there seems to be quite a bit of interest in the changes I am planning for Compass. As a result, I thought it might be useful to list in detail the changes I am planning on making over the next year or so. 1. NEW FILE FORMAT. I originally developed the Compass file format around 1979. At the time I was working on a mainframe computer at the School Of Mines here in Colorado and only had a few thousand feet of cave data from Groaning Cave to work on. I never anticipated that it would become so widely used. Since then, the format has been modified a few times to handle new data items, but Compass can still read and display files I have archived from the early 1980's. However, as time goes on, I am having more and problems adding new features to the format. For this reason, I am thinking about shifting to a new XML-based format that will make it much easier to add new data items and make changes to the format. I am planning on using some ideas developed by Devin Kouts: http://www.psc-cavers.org/xml/#designRequirements For those who don't know what XML is, it is data format similar to HTML that allows you to create your own specialized document formats. It uses tags, just like HTML, except that you get to define your own tags. For example, the tags for a cave survey file might look something like this: Groaning Cave There are several advantages to XML. First, it is "extensible". That means it is very easy to add new items without breaking old programs that don't know about the new data. Second, the general XML format is already defined so it is easy for people to write programs that can read any XML file. In fact, there are general purpose utility programs and libraries that can read an XML file without knowing anything about the actual data that resides in the file. The biggest disadvantage is that it is verbose. This means that the files can be much bigger than with simpler formats. I have already written some code to write the new format and have discovered that the new format would be about 8 times bigger than the old files. The worst part is that data takes about 10 times longer to read or write. For example, writing one of the sections of Lechuguilla takes 0.4 seconds using the old format and 5 seconds under the new format even on my 2.8 Ghz Pentium-IV. This will be less of a problem as computers get faster, but it is probably too slow for some older computer. For example, someone with a 280-Mhz Pentium would take 50 second to read one Lechuguilla file and several minutes to read the whole cave. I think I can speed things up by simplifying the data format for the shot data and not breaking everything into independent tags. Even with the new file format, I will continue to support the old format for a long time to come. I will make sure all the Compass programs can read the old format and I will have programs that can convert the new data back to the old format. I have written a test program that reads the old Compass files and can write either the old or new XML format. If you would like to look at a sample of the new data or play with the program, you can down load a copy here: http://www.fountainware.com/download/xml.zip WARNING: Be careful how you use this program particularly when you save the files to the old format. It has not been tested extensive and it could damage your cave data. Make sure you only test it on backup copies of your data. 2. USING MEMORY. Up until recently, Compass' strategy for processing files was to parse the data on the fly, reading one character at a time and only retaining the data it needed to address the problem at hand. This reduced the memory requirements of Compass and allowed it to process large caves even with the limited memory available to the early Apples and PC's. The main problem is that you only have a certain amount of information in memory and this limits what things you can display. For example, the Viewer only has the shots and LRUDs data in memory. As a result, it is impossible to do other things like highlight individual loops in the Viewer. Today, memory is no longer a limitation and on the typical PC, it is very easy to allocate multi-megabyte arrays. As a result, I can now keep a lot more information in memory including loops, shots, comments, etc. I figure I need about 150 bytes per shot to do everything I want to do. For a cave like Lechuguilla, that would equate to 7 or 8 megabytes. For a cave like Mammoth, the requirement would be about 20 megabytes. These number are well within the capability of modern PCs. 3. UNDERLYING DATA STRUCTURES. Another aspect that will change is the structure of the data stored by Compass. In the past Compass used a fairly simple data structure, with just enough information to keep track of station locations and to find loops. The new data structure will be designed to support "graph theory" operations. Graph theory is the branch of mathematics that deals with the kind of "networks" of interconnected lines that cave surveys generate. In keeping with the Graph Theory model, the new data structure will have "edges," "vertices" and an "adjacency" information. Graph theory will allow Compass to add a bunch of new features such as finding the shortest distance between station, and even finding the easiest path between stations. Most of the new data structure has been built and code has been written to work with it. The only remaining task, (probably the hardest part), is to integrate it with the rest of Compass. 4. NEW LOOP CLOSURE TOOLS. With the new data structure, I will be able to do a better job of finding loops. Currently, under certain circumstances, Compass does not find the smallest set of loops in the cave. I have already written routines that do a much better job of finding loops. In fact, I have written an article about the techniques I am using for the NSS publication "Compass and Tape." You can get a preview of the article here: http://www.fountainware.com/compass/FindingLoops.doc You can also download a test program that generates large quantities of overlapped and randomly connected loops. The link is in the article. 4. NEW ROOM MODELING. I am also working on a system for handling large rooms. It will be based on using "splay" shots. Basically, you choose a station near the center of the room and take shots to the wall in various directions. Since the user might enter any where from one to a dozen splay shots, the plan is to have Compass interpolate and convert the splay shots into 8 or 10 evenly spaced pie-shaped wedges that would describe the room. Ideally, you would have at least four shots at evenly spaced angles to the wall, but the system would handle any number with any spacing. Of course, the more shots, the more precisely it would define the room. The splay shots would be entered just like a regular shots except that the "To" station would be a special symbol. Currently, the plan is to use a right parenthesis ")" for the "To" station. (It turns out that parenthesis is one of the few character that exists on most of the non-English key boards. It also vaguely resembles a passage wall.) The Up and Down dimension would apply to the "To" station of the shot. In other words, the Up and Down dimension would describe the wall height where the shot makes contact with the wall. The height of the center of the room would be controlled by the LRUDs of the "From" station. This should produce a reasonably realistic room shape which could be either convex or concaved. However, it would not model a side branch of the a room wanders around a corner. I have written test code and it seems to work well and I may put this feature in Compass fairly soon. 5. RUNNING PROFILES. If you have been reading the Compass Newsgroup you know that there have been some extensive discussion about what is know as "Running Profiles" or "Developed Profiles." These are profiles where the turns and bends in the cave passage are "unrolled" and the passage is displayed as though all the shots were in a straight line. In an ordinary profile, it may not be possible to see all the ups and downs of the passages because some shots maybe pointing directly toward or away from the viewer. Rotating the cave does not help, because as you rotate one shot into an optimal position, other shots will rotate into a bad position. The feature is very popular in Europe where there are lots of deep pits and not many maze caves. The feature works best in relatively simple caves that have few loops and interconnects. In the US where there are lots of maze caves, the feature is only useful on small segments of a cave. Again, I have already written some test code to experiment with the feature. I think the feature will be easier to implement when I have the new data structures in place. However, there may be a way to implement the feature sooner. 6. SVG/BITMAP WARPING. For several years I have been looking at ideas to help cavers create finished maps. One problem with finished cave maps is that they become obsolete whenever a new survey is added or loop errors are corrected. Ideally, cartographers would like to draw the map once, and then have a computer program warp the map to adapt it to changes. There are several ways Compass could address the problem: A. BITMAP MORPHING. First, it could import scanned bitmap images of survey sketches and then register various stations to locations on the bitmap. If a passage moved as a result of resurveying a passage, Compass would warp the bitmap using the kind of "Afine" transform used for "morphing" images. This is the approach used by Garry Petrie's Karst program and it is relatively easy to do. It works fairly well on small caves, but it does not really produce finished maps. It is also tedious to piece together multiple sketches to produce a full-scale cave map. I am just finishing up some changes to Compass that will take the first steps toward adding this feature. The next release will have the ability to register a bitmap image to the cave so that no matter how much you zoom, pan and rotate, the image will stay locked to the cave. B. ROUND TRIPPING. Another approach is to export and import cave survey data to a drawing program. For example, Walls exports and imports cave data in the SVG format; a format created and promoted by Adobe. The cave data is then imported into Adobe Illustrator and then passage wall details, symbols etc. are added. If the cave changes, the SVG data is loaded back in the Survey Program and the map is warped to match the changed survey data. This model has several advantages, the main one being that with Adobe Illustrator, you can produce very beautiful maps maps. One disadvantage is that Adobe Illustrator is fairly expensive and maybe not the best tool for cavers. I also have questions about how well this works with larger or complex caves. Finally, there are questions about how universal SVG will become and whether it will be adopted by other programs. Another option would be to do something similar using a less expensive drawing program such as Corel Draw, or Canvas. DXF would be the ideal format because it is a nearly universal file format. 7. GLOBAL STATIONS/PREFIXES. One of the problems with cave survey data occurs when you have duplicate stations. This usually happens when try to combine several caves into regional map. As you probably know, Compass uses a "Linking" system to deal with this issue. Although, it works well, people are often confused about how to apply it, particularly when the linking stations have to be "carried" between files. A different option that might be easier to understand would be to allow the user to declare certain stations in each file to be "Public" or "Global". These stations would be the only stations that would be visible to other files. In practice, it works similar to the "Links" but it might be easier to understand and use. Another option would be to add prefixes to each survey file or even each survey. The prefixes would then be added to each station name to help prevent name conflicts. This is what Survex does to deal with British cave data which often has duplicate station name even in a relatively small cave. 8. LOOP CLOSURE. As you may know, there has been some controversy about the efficacy of various loop closure techniques. I am convinced that the routine described by John Halleck are superior to other methods: http://www.cc.utah.edu/~nahaj/cave/survey/ My plan is implement John's ideas after have I changed the file format and data structures. 9. INCREMENTAL UPDATES. While I am working on all these changes, I will continue to make updates to the current version of Compass. I get lots of requests for new features and many of them are relatively easy to do (or at least fit into the current data structure.) For example, I have made about 40 changes to Compass in just the last six months. Currently, I am working on adding a standard-deviation field for Fixed Station. This is needed because GPS readings are often inaccurate and can distort the cave if more than one entrance is tied to a GPS fix. I am also finishing up the feature that locks a bitmap image to the cave. I expect to have these two features finished in a couple weeks. Although many of these changes have in place for months, I will probably make a public announcement in the next few weeks so that everyone will be aware of the new features. The big changes will come later. 10. TIME CONSTRAINTS. I work on Compass whenever I have free time. This depends on how much other work I have. Typically, I have several months each year when I am between contracts to work on Compass. As a result, the time frame for completing all the ideas listed above will depend on how much other work I have. I'm hoping to have the majority of the changes done within six months or a year. In case you are curious about what kind of work I do when I am not working on Compass, the last five years I have been writing control software for large astronomical telescopes manufactured by DFM engineering: http://www.dfmengineering.com/stan_cass_tele.html In addition to the Telescope Control Software, we have been designing Radio Telescope Control Software for colleges: http://www.pari.edu/OnlinePARIPresentation We have also been retrofitting NOAA's Satellite Tracking antennas in Virginia and Alaska with modern control systems and satellite tracking software: http://www.fcdas.noaa.gov/facilities.html http://ivs.nict.go.jp/mirror/publications/ar1999/nsgcgo/ http://www.photolib.noaa.gov/space/spind5.htm http://www.photolib.noaa.gov/space/spac0185.htm http://www.photolib.noaa.gov/space/spac0195.htm Finally, I am doing a lot of work power for a company that make a very nice power and inexpensive power monitoring tools: https://www.doubleed.com/secure.html Larry
Messsage #: 1
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 09:12:25 -0000 From: "caveguenter" Subject: no avi-export Hi Larry, nice to see the user group live again. It seems I have to start with a question? My (your) plot viewer version 5.06.3.28.223 does not make an .avi-file. Instead it gives me an error message after having input a filename: 'File not open' in an extra window with a header information of the name of my plf-file. Any suggestions? Thanks and happy programming on the new file format ... guenter
Messsage #: 2
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 13:51:18 -0600 From: "Larry Fish" Subject: Re: [compass-users] no avi-export Guenter, Thanks for your letter. nice to see the user group live again. It seems I have to start with a question? My (your) plot viewer version 5.06.3.28.223 does not make an .avi-file. Instead it gives me an error message after having input a filename: 'File not open' in an extra window with a header information of the name of my plf-file. I tried several different tests, but I could not duplicate your problem. There are three different ways you can generate AVI files in Compass: 1) Viewer - Using the "Movie" feature. 2) Viewer - Using the "Animation" feature. 3) CaveX - Using the AVI "Capture" option. I assumed that you were using one of the first two options, so I tested these extensively, generating many different AVI files without any problems. I noticed that you are using a "PLF" file as opposed to a "PLT", which implies that there is special data in that file, that might be giving Compass a problem when generating AVI files. You could try testing a PLT file to see if the problem goes away. Anyway, it would be useful for me to have more information what you are doing to cause the error. For example, which of the options listed above are you using to generate the AVI file? What "Compression" setting are you using? Are you generating a very large AVI file with lots of frames? (Perhaps the problem has something to do with large memory requirements.) What operating system are you running? Window 98, Windows 2000, Windows XP, etc? How much memory does your computer have? Do you have lots of free hard drive space? (Large AVI files can be more than 100 megabytes in size.)What CPU (Intel vs AMD)? Is there something special or unusual about your PLF file? One last question - What country are you in? Sometimes the Windows settings for a particular country will cause problems with Compass. For example, in the United States, the "decimal separator" is a "Period" (.), where as, in European Countries it is a "Comma" (,). This has caused several problems with Compass in the past and could cause problems in the future. Compass now very carefully controls these properties so that Compass file can be read by any computer in any country, but sometime I forget this issue when I add some new feature. Finally, if you can think of any other details that might be contributing to the problem, let me know. Larry
Messsage #: 3
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 14:20:25 -0000 From: "caveguenter" Subject: Re: no avi-export Larry, thanks for your reply. I'll try to answer all your questions. It seems to me that it is a general problem with the Viewer, at least on my systems which is WinXP SP2, German, set up new a few weeks ago. More info to the system: AMD Athlon 2.00 GHz, 512 MB Ram, 65 GByte free space on the drive D: were all data is to be stored. The programm itself is on C:, which is smaller, only 4,89 GByte free space). I do have a Matrox G450 with two Monitors, one with 1600*1200 and one with 1280*1024. I tried it also with an other system: AMD Sempron 2800+ 1 GByte Ram, 100 GByte free space, only one pure 1280*1024 graphic card and monitor, also WinXP SP2, German, really fresh system. Your programs freshly downloaded and run ... and exactly the same problem as described further: I tried several different tests, but I could not duplicate your problem. There are three different ways you can generate AVI files in Compass: 1) Viewer - Using the "Movie" feature. 2) Viewer - Using the "Animation" feature. 3) CaveX - Using the AVI "Capture" option. I assumed that you were using one of the first two options, so I tested these extensively, generating many different AVI files without any problems. Its the number 2 I am using. Number 1 is also not working. Number 3 is working. I tried it anew with fulford.plt, just to have a comparable source. I noticed that you are using a "PLF" file as opposed to a "PLT", which implies that there is special data in that file, that might be giving Compass a problem when generating AVI files. You could try testing a PLT file to see if the problem goes away. I tried it now with fulford.plt. I open the cave viewer, open there in - File -Open Plot File - fulford.plt, switch the image to Zoom, Profile. Then - Tools - Animations, add the first point, turn the cave a litle bit with the 3D Compass, make a second point. Test the Animation with the standart settings: Intermediate: 50, Frames/sec: 15, it works and then try to save it (with different compression levels tried) - Files - Save AVI Movie File, enter a name, press return and get an error window: In window title: "fulford.plt - Cave Viewer" and in the middle of the window: 'File not open'. In the file listing in the explorer there is a file with the name i had choosen, but with 0 bytes. This happens on both systems. Hope this helps ... and happy eastern Guenter
Messsage #: 4
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 14:14:21 -0000 From: "caveguenter" Subject: Re: no avi-export Larry, thanks for your reply. I'll try to answer all your questions. It seems to me that it is a general problem with the Viewer, at least on my systems which is WinXP SP2, German, set up new a few weeks ago. More info to the system: AMD Athlon 2.00 GHz, 512 MB Ram, 65 GByte free space on the drive D: were all data is to be stored. The programm itself is on C:, which is smaller, only 4,89 GByte free space). I do have a Matrox G450 with two Monitors, one with 1600*1200 and one with 1280*1024. I tried it also with an other system: AMD Sempron 2800+ 1 GByte Ram, 100 GByte free space, only one pure 1280*1024 graphic card and monitor, also WinXP SP2, German, really fresh system. Your programs freshly downloaded and run ... and exactly the same problem as described further: I tried several different tests, but I could not duplicate your problem. There are three different ways you can generate AVI files in Compass: 1) Viewer - Using the "Movie" feature. 2) Viewer - Using the "Animation" feature. 3) CaveX - Using the AVI "Capture" option. I assumed that you were using one of the first two options, so I tested these extensively, generating many different AVI files without any problems. Its the number 2 I am using. Number 1 is also not working. Number 3 is working. I tried it anew with fulford.plt, just to have a comparable source. I noticed that you are using a "PLF" file as opposed to a "PLT", which implies that there is special data in that file, that might be giving Compass a problem when generating AVI files. You could try testing a PLT file to see if the problem goes away. I tried it now with fulford.plt. I open the cave viewer, open there in - File -Open Plot File - fulford.plt, switch the image to Zoom, Profile. Then - Tools - Animations, add the first point, turn the cave a litle bit with the 3D Compass, make a second point. Test the Animation with the standart settings: Intermediate: 50, Frames/sec: 15, it works and then try to save it (with different compression levels tried) - Files - Save AVI Movie File, enter a name, press return and get an error window: In window title: "fulford.plt - Cave Viewer" and in the middle of the window: 'File not open'. In the file listing in the explorer there is a file with the name i had choosen, but with 0 bytes. Hope this helps ... and happy eastern Guenter
Messsage #: 5
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 15:24:06 -0600 From: "Larry Fish" Subject: Re: [compass-users] Re: no avi-export Guenter, Thanks for your reply. I have found the problem! Animation with the standart settings: Intermediate: 50, Frames/sec: 15, it works and then try to save it (with different compression levels tried) - Files - Save AVI Movie File, enter a name, press return and get an error window: In window title: "fulford.plt - Cave Viewer" The clues was when you said "enter a name". It occurred to me that you might be entering a name without the extension "AVI". Sure enough, when I just entered the name without the extension, I got the same error you did. The problem has now been fixed. If you don't enter an extension, the program will automatically add the correct extension. There is a corrected version posted on the internet here: http://www.fountainware.com/compass/download.htm Check it out and see if it fixes the problem on your machine. Thank you very much for the feedback. It really helps for finding and fixing problems like this. Larry
Messsage #: 6
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 12:45:58 -0000 From: "caveguenter" Subject: Re: no avi-export Hi Larry, Guenter, Thanks for your reply. I have found the problem! I can't tell you positive news. It is still the same, I just downloaded the newest file. No matter if I enter an extension (for the avi-file) or not. The .cmv - files are working, I tried it again with fulford.plt and with version: 5.06.4.16.223 of View32.exe. I will be in Spain for the next week, so I can't react for the next days. greetings Guenter
Messsage #: 7
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 13:55:08 -0000 From: "caveresource" Subject: Compass XML file format Hi Larry- I read with interest your plans to switch the Compass file format to a XML base. I was wondering if you have any plans to support the Google Earth file format of KML? The spec is available at: http://earth.google.com/kml/kml_intro.html I've posted an example of what this functionality might look like from the Google Earth side in the files section. Of course, you'll need Google Earth to view the link. I would be interested in your (and others!) thoughts. Best Regards- Aaron Addison
Messsage #: 8
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 17:06:17 -0600 From: "Larry Fish" Subject: Re: [compass-users] Re: no avi-export Guenter, I can't tell you positive news. It is still the same, I just downloaded the newest file. No matter if I enter an extension (for the avi-file) or not. The only way that I could produce the error you are describing was by forcing the AVI file's extension to be something other than "AVI". However, there are other error conditions that could cause an error. To make it easier to differentiate the different error types, I have added 20 different AVI errors to Compass. This may help us figure out what is causing the error. (When you get back from Spain,) there is a new version of Compass on the net. You should download it and test it. I expect that you will continue to get an error, but the message should give you lots more information. Let me know the exact words in the error message and that should help me zero in on the problem. Que tengas un buen viaje a Espa�a. (Have a good trip to Spain.) Larry
Messsage #: 9
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 03:32:26 -0600 From: "Larry Fish" Subject: Re: [compass-users] Compass XML file format Aaron, Thanks for your letter. I have been playing with Google Earth for several months and I think it is wonderful. I have even made several overlays of cave passages and loaded them into Google Earth. I do think I might be able to convert the shot lines into "Path Lines" so you could overlay passages onto Google terrains. Although I suspect that Google Earth might choke on the more than 32,000 shots in Lechuguilla. It is too bad that there is no way to make the ground transparent and be able to create underground polygon passage shapes. Larry From: "caveresource" Sent: Monday, April 17, 2006 7:55 AM Subject: [compass-users] Compass XML file format Hi Larry- I read with interest your plans to switch the Compass file format to a XML base. I was wondering if you have any plans to support the Google Earth file format of KML? The spec is available at: http://earth.google.com/kml/kml_intro.html I've posted an example of what this functionality might look like from the Google Earth side in the files section. Of course, you'll need Google Earth to view the link. I would be interested in your (and others!) thoughts. Best Regards- Aaron Addison Yahoo! Groups Links
Messsage #: 10
Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 20:41:26 -0000 From: "caveguenter" Subject: Re: no avi-export Larry, To make it easier to differentiate the different error types, I have added 20 different AVI errors to Compass. This may help us figure out what is causing the error. I tried it and I get: Unable to set Compression Format: Compression not supported I tried it now on two other PC's and it is working there. It seems to be a 'personal' problem ... On the machine with the problem, there is Windows media player 10 running (displaying) the fulford-.avi files from the other pc's. Also the moviemaker.exe shows the file correctly. The pc is nearly set up new with all MS Updates incl. SP2. Is there an avi codec missing? The correctly produced avi contained 'RIFF hdrlavih8 strlstrh8'. Nearly no idea what else to do, I do not want to 'overload' my system with unnecesarry nonsense ... so I will not blindly load different codecs in. Guenter
Messsage #: 11
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 03:19:39 -0600 From: "Larry Fish" Subject: Re: [compass-users] Re: no avi-export Guenter, Is there an avi codec missing? The correctly produced avi contained 'RIFF hdrlavih8 strlstrh8'. From your description, it does appear that you are missing a codec. The codec I use for Compass is the "MSVC" codec: http://www.fourcc.org/codecs.php The MSVC codec is probably the very first codec that Microsoft used and it should be installed on virtually every system. I didn't do anything special to install it on my computer, so I'm not sure why it wouldn't be on your computer. I wonder if it was removed from you computer. That is the kind of thing that a virus, worms or trojan horse could do. It is also possible that it was overwritten or deleted by another codec. There are some instructions here for transferring codecs from one computer to another here: http://www.fourcc.org/fcctxcod.php I have never tried this technique, so use caution. Larry
Messsage #: 12
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 14:54:01 -0000 From: "caveguenter" Subject: Re: no avi-export Larry, From your description, it does appear that you are missing a codec. The codec I use for Compass is the "MSVC" codec: I wonder if it was removed from you computer. That is the kind of thing that a virus, worms or trojan horse could do. It is also possible that it was overwritten or deleted by another codec. I tested the codec and checked it in the registry. Its all there (entries in the reg, dll's etc.), despite the fact, that GSpot (a program which lists installed codecs etc...) tells me, that MSVC for CRAM-files is not installed when I am trying to check the fulford video, but the codec is installed in the system if I check the 'installed codecs-list'. I even reinstalled all microsoft codecs, nothing changed. So I will leave it as it is under the terms of: ...just another ms-secret ... and use another pc to get my video. Thanks for your help. Guenter
Messsage #: 13
Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 03:28:44 -0000 From: "Randy" Subject: cave depth statistics I noticed there is a problem with the Cave Depth value when running Statistics. In my case, the Surface survey elevation from one entrance to another gets entered into the Depth field even though I need to include it for a Loop Closure. What I did was process it with the Surface Survey to tie in the entrances and create the plot file, then had to reflag the shots, resave it, and Compile it again for the Cave Statistics. Is there an easier way to exclude a shot in both Length and Depth, but still use those survey shots for a Loop Closure? I must be overlooking something simple or doing it the hard way... Randy
Messsage #: 14
Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 03:35:21 -0600 From: "Larry Fish" Subject: Re: [compass-users] cave depth statistics Randy, Thanks for your letter. I noticed there is a problem with the Cave Depth value when running Statistics. Is there an easier way to exclude a shot in both Length and Depth, but still use those survey shots for a Loop Closure? I must be overlooking something simple or doing it the hard way... This is actually a more complicated problem than it appears. The "flags" in Compass, (the ones that you enter in the Editor), apply to Shot information. For example, the "L" flag exludes a shot's Length from the statistics. The Depth information that you want to exclude applies to the Station information and is not available at the time that the flags are processed. The program has to process all the shots before it knows the depth of all the stations. As a result, the Depth is the last thing the program calculates and at that point, the flags are not available. In addition, adding a flag to exclude the Depth of a Station would be tricky. For example, if you have a shot from station "A1" to "A2", which station does the flag apply to? To solve that problem, you would have to choose one station as the default. For example, it would be logical to say that the "Station-Exclusion Flag" applies to the "From" station. This would work fine unless you had an out of sequence survey like this: X1 ---- A1 ---- A2
Messsage #: 15
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 17:29:42 +0100 From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?S�rgio_Nunes?=" Subject: VRML problems: "bla, bla expected" Hello! I'm new with Compass. I found a wonderful feature of this program: vrml exportation. However, it seams not to work with me. I gave up trying. I have Cortoma installed, but nothing. It keeps appearing *"file://E:\3.wrl(6,29) : '}' expected*, and similar warnings. I use *Visual Topo* and export to Compass to have better 3D features. Thank you. Sergio Hello! I'm new with Compass. I found a wonderful feature of this program: vrml exportation. However, it seams not to work with me. I gave up trying. I have Cortoma installed, but nothing. It keeps appearing "file://E:\3.wrl(6,29) : '}' expected, and similar warnings. I use Visual Topo and export to Compass to have better 3D features. Thank you. Sergio
Messsage #: 16
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 16:54:28 -0600 From: "Larry Fish" Subject: Re: [compass-users] VRML problems: "bla, bla expected" Sergio, Thanks for your letter. I have found the source of the problem and I have fixed it. There is a new version of Compass up on the internet. Download it and let me know if it fixes the problem. The problem caused by the fact that many European countries use a comma "," as the "Decimal Point" and a period "." as the decimal separator. The United States and some other countries use the opposite standard. When someone is using a computer that is configured for a European country, Windows will read/write numbers with the comma as decimal point. For programs such as Compass that have to work in any country this does not work. If Compass allowed the files to vary from country to country, then a file created in one country would not be readable in another. For this reason, Compass always turns off the "International Compatibility" options in Windows. In this case, I forgot to turn off those options for the VRML export routines. Larry From: "S�rgio Nunes" Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 10:29 AM Subject: [compass-users] VRML problems: "bla, bla expected" Hello! I'm new with Compass. I found a wonderful feature of this program: vrml exportation. However, it seams not to work with me. I gave up trying. I have Cortoma installed, but nothing. It keeps appearing *"file://E:\3.wrl(6,29) : '}' expected*, and similar warnings. I use *Visual Topo* and export to Compass to have better 3D features. Thank you. Sergio
Messsage #: 17
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 15:52:41 -0000 From: "rwmille10" Subject: problem with shortcut keys Any time I try to enter a letter in a "Find" text box that also happens to be a shortcut key, Compass executes the shortcut rather than accepting the letter. Following a hard drive crash, I re-installed Compass from the website. I have not changed any settings. I have a Dell Inspiron 8100 with a Pentium III; my OS is Windows 2000. Do I need to change some setting? Thanks for your help! Ron Miller
Messsage #: 18
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 10:27:40 -0600 From: [email protected] Subject: Re: [compass-users] problem with shortcut keys Ron, I've noticed the same problem that you mentioned with entering a letter that happens to be a short-cut key in any of the "find" windows in COMPASS. A good example of this problem is trying to enter "A" for finding the A survey which will then color the lineplot by elevation. I have found this problem on multiple computers with different Operating Systems running COMPASS, so I don't think it is a problem with your settings or OS. I've found that if you press shift and the desired key you can enter the desired letters. Assuming that your caps lock is off this will produce a capital letter, which is probably what you want since most surveys are capitalized. If you want a lower-case letter you can turn caps lock on and then press shift. Not pretty, but it works. StanStan Allison, Cave TechnicianCarlsbad Caverns National Park3225 National Parks HighwayCarlsbad, NM [email protected]@yahoogroups.com wrote: -----To: [email protected]: "rwmille10" <[email protected]>Sent by: [email protected]: 06/25/2006 09:52AMSubject: [compass-users] problem with shortcut keysAny time I try to enter a letter in a "Find" text box that alsohappens to be a shortcut key, Compass executes the shortcut ratherthan accepting the letter.Following a hard drive crash, I re-installed Compass from the website. I have not changed any settings. I have a Dell Inspiron 8100 with aPentium III; my OS is Windows 2000.Do I need to change some setting?Thanks for your help!Ron Miller------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> See what's inside the new Yahoo! Groups email.http://us.click.yahoo.com/2pRQfA/bOaOAA/yQLSAA/C5grlB/TM--------------------------------------------------------it your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/compass-users/<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [email protected]<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Messsage #: 19
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 15:42:10 -0600 From: "Larry Fish" Subject: Re: [compass-users] problem with shortcut keys Hi Everybody, Thanks for the heads up on the problem. I have fixed it and there a new version of Compass on the internet here: http://www.fountainware.com/compass/download.htm Let me know if the changes work for everyone. Larry From: Sent: Sunday, June 25, 2006 10:27 AM Subject: Re: [compass-users] problem with shortcut keys Ron, I've noticed the same problem that you mentioned with entering a letter that happens to be a short-cut key in any of the "find" windows in COMPASS. A good example of this problem is trying to enter "A" for finding the A survey which will then color the lineplot by elevation. I have found this problem on multiple computers with different Operating Systems running COMPASS, so I don't think it is a problem with your settings or OS. I've found that if you press shift and the desired key you can enter the desired letters. Assuming that your caps lock is off this will produce a capital letter, which is probably what you want since most surveys are capitalized. If you want a lower-case letter you can turn caps lock on and then press shift. Not pretty, but it works. Stan Stan Allison, Cave Technician Carlsbad Caverns National Park 3225 National Parks Highway Carlsbad, NM 88220 505-785-3105 [email protected] [email protected] wrote: ----- To: [email protected] From: "rwmille10" Sent by: [email protected] Date: 06/25/2006 09:52AM Subject: [compass-users] problem with shortcut keys Any time I try to enter a letter in a "Find" text box that also happens to be a shortcut key, Compass executes the shortcut rather than accepting the letter. Following a hard drive crash, I re-installed Compass from the website. I have not changed any settings. I have a Dell Inspiron 8100 with a Pentium III; my OS is Windows 2000. Do I need to change some setting? Thanks for your help! Ron Miller Yahoo! Groups Links
Messsage #: 20
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 22:35:06 -0400 From: Ron Miller Subject: Re: [compass-users] problem with shortcut keys Thanks for the work around - seems like a fairly serious bug to me - quite frustrating. [email protected] wrote: Ron, I've noticed the same problem that you mentioned with entering a letter that happens to be a short-cut key in any of the "find" windows in COMPASS. A good example of this problem is trying to enter "A" for finding the A survey which will then color the lineplot by elevation. I have found this problem on multiple computers with different Operating Systems running COMPASS, so I don't think it is a problem with your settings or OS. I've found that if you press shift and the desired key you can enter the desired letters. Assuming that your caps lock is off this will produce a capital letter, which is probably what you want since most surveys are capitalized. If you want a lower-case letter you can turn caps lock on and then press shift. Not pretty, but it works. Stan Stan Allison, Cave Technician Carlsbad Caverns National Park 3225 National Parks Highway Carlsbad, NM 88220 505-785-3105 [email protected] [email protected] wrote: ----- To: [email protected] From: "rwmille10" Sent by: [email protected] Date: 06/25/2006 09:52AM Subject: [compass-users] problem with shortcut keys Any time I try to enter a letter in a "Find" text box that also happens to be a shortcut key, Compass executes the shortcut rather than accepting the letter. Following a hard drive crash, I re-installed Compass from the website. I have not changed any settings. I have a Dell Inspiron 8100 with a Pentium III; my OS is Windows 2000. Do I need to change some setting? Thanks for your help! Ron Miller Yahoo! Groups Links Thanks for the work around - seems like a fairly serious bug to me - quite frustrating. [email protected] wrote: Ron, I've noticed the same problem that you mentioned with entering a letter that happens to be a short-cut key in any of the "find" windows in COMPASS. A good example of this problem is trying to enter "A" for finding the A survey which will then color the lineplot by elevation. I have found this problem on multiple computers with different Operating Systems running COMPASS, so I don't think it is a problem with your settings or OS. I've found that if you press shift and the desired key you can enter the desired letters. Assuming that your caps lock is off this will produce a capital letter, which is probably what you want since most surveys are capitalized. If you want a lower-case letter you can turn caps lock on and then press shift. Not pretty, but it works. Stan Stan Allison, Cave Technician Carlsbad Caverns National Park 3225 National Parks Highway Carlsbad, NM 88220 505-785-3105 [email protected] [email protected] wrote: ----- To: [email protected] From: "rwmille10" <[email protected]> Sent by: [email protected] Date: 06/25/2006 09:52AM Subject: [compass-users] problem with shortcut keys Any time I try to enter a letter in a "Find" text box that also happens to be a shortcut key, Compass executes the shortcut rather than accepting the letter. Following a hard drive crash, I re-installed Compass from the website. I have not changed any settings. I have a Dell Inspiron 8100 with a Pentium III; my OS is Windows 2000. Do I need to change some setting? Thanks for your help! Ron Miller See what's inside the new Yahoo! Groups email. http://us.click.yahoo.com/2pRQfA/bOaOAA/yQLSAA/C5grlB/TM Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/compass-users/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [email protected] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Messsage #: 21
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 21:06:06 -0600 From: "Larry Fish" Subject: Re: [compass-users] problem with shortcut keys Ron, Thanks for the work around - seems like a fairly serious bug to me - quite frustrating. The work around is now unnecessary because the bug has been fixed. The bug apparently occurred when I upgraded to the latest version of the Compiler that I use to write the code. I have an old versions of the Viewer that dates from 3/21/04 and the problem does not occur with that version. According to posts on the internet, the problem was caused by a combination of changes in the Comercial Libraries in the Compiler and improvements by Microsoft. The implication is that the problem does not occur in Windows 98, but I no longer have versions of Win98, so I cannot test the theory. At any rate, there is a new version on the internet here: http://www.fountainware.com/compass/download.htm Larry
Messsage #: 22
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 13:32:20 -0000 From: "ericmweaver2003" Subject: define coordinates for Compass shapefile I am having difficulty finding the correct coordinate system for a shapefile created through Compass. I haven't had difficulty defining a projection for the shapefile in the past, so I am wondering if I am missing a step in process. I believe the question should be: What step/function in Compass defines the coordinate system for the shapefile?
Messsage #: 23
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 08:40:10 -0500 From: "Aaron Addison" Subject: RE: [compass-users] define coordinates for Compass shapefile Hi Eric- My understanding is that none of the cave survey programs create the projection file that ArcGIS requires. This must be defined in ArcToolBox. The tool is located under Data Management-Projections and Transformations - Define Projection. Absent of this companion or sister file, ArcGIS will place the shapefile based on the coordinates of the data (with no projection). This is especially problematic when trying to overlay your cave data with other GIS data. Also make sure that your fixed coordinate point has real-world coordinates and is not positioned at zero,zero. Aaron ________________________________ Aaron Addison University GIS Coordinator Washington University in St. Louis Campus Box 1048 One Brookings Drive St. Louis, MO 63130-4899 314 935 6198 - office 314 935 7142 - fax [email protected] ________________________________ From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of ericmweaver2003 Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 8:32 AM Subject: [compass-users] define coordinates for Compass shapefile I am having difficulty finding the correct coordinate system for a shapefile created through Compass. I haven't had difficulty defining a projection for the shapefile in the past, so I am wondering if I am missing a step in process. I believe the question should be: What step/function in Compass defines the coordinate system for the shapefile? v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }
Messsage #: 24
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 13:25:42 -0600 From: "Larry Fish" Subject: RE: [compass-users] define coordinates for Compass shapefile Aaron is correct. Compass does not generate any information about the coordinate system for the cave data. The Shapefiles themselves have no provision this information. In fact, they don't even provide a way of specifying meters or feet. While there is lots of information about the content of shapefiles, I have yet to find any information about the format or content of PRJ files. (If anyone has a link to some documentation, I would be very appreciative.) Here is a link to instructions for adding a coordinate system to a shapefile: http://webhelp.esri.com/arcgisdesktop/9.1/index.cfm?TopicName_fining%20a%2 0shapefile%27s%20coordinate%20system Larry _____ From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Aaron Addison Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 7:40 AM Subject: RE: [compass-users] define coordinates for Compass shapefile Hi Eric- My understanding is that none of the cave survey programs create the projection file that ArcGIS requires. This must be defined in ArcToolBox. The tool is located under Data Management-Projections and Transformations - Define Projection. Absent of this companion or sister file, ArcGIS will place the shapefile based on the coordinates of the data (with no projection). This is especially problematic when trying to overlay your cave data with other GIS data. Also make sure that your fixed coordinate point has real-world coordinates and is not positioned at zero,zero. Aaron _____ Aaron Addison University GIS Coordinator Washington University in St. Louis Campus Box 1048 One Brookings Drive St. Louis, MO 63130-4899 314 935 6198 - office 314 935 7142 - fax aaddison@wustl. edu _____ From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of ericmweaver2003 Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 8:32 AM Subject: [compass-users] define coordinates for Compass shapefile I am having difficulty finding the correct coordinate system for a shapefile created through Compass. I haven't had difficulty defining a projection for the shapefile in the past, so I am wondering if I am missing a step in process. I believe the question should be: What step/function in Compass defines the coordinate system for the shapefile? v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }
Messsage #: 25
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 16:46:22 -0000 From: "ericmweaver2003" Subject: fixed problem with defining projection Thanks for the info. It helped me sort out what was going on. It turns out that I was doing ok as far as defining the projection. I had used Compass created shapefiles in the past for overlays and had not come across a problem. I spent the past couple of days trying to figure out what was going wrong with such a basic task as defining the projection for the shapefile. I went through every conceivable coordinate system trying to find a correct match. A couple clues to the problem came up: 1) the southernmost coordinates seemed nonsensical(-239) and 2) the station coordinates in Compass were not displaying as real coordinates. It turns out it was due to the way that the MAK file was set up. The MAK file that I received had three files: one was the current survey of the cave, another was an old survey of the cave, and one was of a nearby cave. I was only interested in working with the current survey and had put in the coordinates for this survey. I had thought that I had avoided any input from the other surveys by just using the View Selected feature and making a shapefile from this. It apparently doesn't work this way. Instead I had to remove the unused surveys and then create a shapefile by using View Cave. It worked great. Once I defined the projection, I had the shapefile right where it should have been. Hopefully my description of what happened makes sense and no one else ends up stuck at the same spot. Thanks again for your responses.
Messsage #: 26
Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2006 06:27:59 -0000 From: "Jon Jasper" Subject: Compass to Illustrator CS2 Larry, I was wondering if you know a way I can get around how CS/CS2 versions of Illustrator does not support the DXF format that compass uses? JON
Messsage #: 27
Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 01:09:08 -0700 From: "Larry Fish" Subject: RE: [compass-users] Compass to Illustrator CS2 Jon, I don't have any direct experience working with Illustrator, but I found some discussion on the internet about Adobe dropping DXF support between CS1 and CS2. On the other hand, I went the Adobe web page for Illustrator CS/CS2 and found the following links which imply that CS2 will import DXF: http://www.adobe.com/support/techdocs/322504.html http://www.adobe.com/support/techdocs/325101.html Searching further on the internet, I find lots of programs that claim to convert DXF to Illustrator compatible files: http://exdxf-pro2.baby-universe-inc.qarchive.org/ If Illustrator becomes popular enough among cavers, I might add the ability to export AI file to Compass. Larry _____ From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Jon Jasper Sent: Friday, December 08, 2006 11:28 PM Subject: [compass-users] Compass to Illustrator CS2 Larry, I was wondering if you know a way I can get around how CS/CS2 versions of Illustrator does not support the DXF format that compass uses? JON v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }
Messsage #: 28
Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2006 11:03:48 +0100 From: Roger Schuster Subject: Re: [compass-users] Compass to Illustrator CS2 Hi Jon, Jon Jasper schrieb: I was wondering if you know a way I can get around how CS/CS2 versions of Illustrator does not support the DXF format that compass uses? Illustrator can read and edit postscript files. Install a postscript printer driver (e.g. the one from Adobe) and print your survey into a file. PDF and a PDF printer driver may also work but I haven't tested this. Roger
Messsage #: 29
Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 08:27:33 -0600 From: "Aaron Addison" Subject: RE: [compass-users] Compass to Illustrator CS2 I'm confused.... my copy of AI CS2 can import (place) and export DXF ???? Am I missing something? Aaron ________________________________ From: [email protected] on behalf of Jon Jasper Sent: Sat 12/9/2006 12:27 AM Subject: [compass-users] Compass to Illustrator CS2 Larry, I was wondering if you know a way I can get around how CS/CS2 versions of Illustrator does not support the DXF format that compass uses? JON
Messsage #: 30
Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 09:38:56 -0700 From: [email protected] Subject: RE: [compass-users] Compass to Illustrator CS2 Jon and Larry, I use Adobe Illustrator CS1 for drafting cave maps and have also found that Illustrator won't read the DXF exports from Compass. I don't like using bitmap/raster lineplot exports to draw maps as I can't modify line plot colors, station labels and survey stations in Illustrator. My solution to this problem is to convert the Compass data to Walls data using the css2srv.exe program that comes with Walls. I then export the maps from Walls as Scalable Vector Graphic which will have the stations, station labels, line plot and scale bar on different layers in vector format just like a DXF. Adobe Illustrator CS2 should work well with the SVG exports from Walls as well. Stan Allison "Larry Fish" To: Sent by: cc: (bcc: Stan Allison/CAVE/NPS) compass-users@yaho Subject: RE: [compass-users] Compass to Illustrator CS2 ogroups.com 12/09/2006 01:09 AM MST Please respond to compass-users Jon, I don�?Tt have any direct experience working with Illustrator, but I found some discussion on the internet about Adobe dropping DXF support between CS1 and CS2. On the other hand, I went the Adobe web page for Illustrator CS/CS2 and found the following links which imply that CS2 will import DXF: http://www.adobe.com/support/techdocs/322504.html http://www.adobe.com/support/techdocs/325101.html Searching further on the internet, I find lots of programs that claim to convert DXF to Illustrator compatible files: http://exdxf-pro2.baby-universe-inc.qarchive.org/ If Illustrator becomes popular enough among cavers, I might add the ability to export AI file to Compass. Larry From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Jon Jasper Sent: Friday, December 08, 2006 11:28 PM To: [email protected] Subject: [compass-users] Compass to Illustrator CS2 Larry, I was wondering if you know a way I can get around how CS/CS2 versions of Illustrator does not support the DXF format that compass uses? JON \T6\T6x
Messsage #: 31
Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 15:00:33 -0700 From: "Larry Fish" Subject: RE: [compass-users] Compass to Illustrator CS2 I'm confused.... my copy of AI CS2 can import (place) and export DXF ???? Me too! Two people say that you cannot import DXF into CS2 but the web page and Aaron say you can. Maybe there is an option that has to be installed before it will work. Microsoft Word is like that. During installation, you have to install certain options before it will import things like Word Perfect files. Arc View is the same way. Larry
Messsage #: 32
Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 15:36:58 -0700 From: [email protected] Subject: RE: [compass-users] Compass to Illustrator CS2 Larry and Aaron, Illustrator CS1 and CS2 can import DXF files. However, the DXF files that Compass exports do are not readable by Illustrator CS1 or CS2. Hope this helps with the confusion. I've only tested CS1, but Jon Jasper has tested CS2 and found the same problem. J�
Messsage #: 33
Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 17:09:59 -0700 From: "Paul R. Jorgenson" Subject: Re: [compass-users] Compass to Illustrator CS2 If you could get a simple DXF file that WILL import to AI then it should be easy enough to compare a simple Compass file see what is not contained in the Compass DXF header that causes the error. DXF is just a text file and most likely the problem is a line of text that the AI does not like (version or something). ================================ Paul R. Jorgenson KE7HR Phoenix, AZ NSS 39382FE - No caves to speak of. ================================ From: Sent: Saturday, December 09, 2006 3:36 PM Subject: RE: [compass-users] Compass to Illustrator CS2 Larry and Aaron, Illustrator CS1 and CS2 can import DXF files. However, the DXF files that Compass exports do are not readable by Illustrator CS1 or CS2. Hope this helps with the confusion. I've only tested CS1, but Jon Jasper has tested CS2 and found the same problem. Stan
Messsage #: 34
Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 14:04:52 +1300 From: kurt Subject: Re: [compass-users] Compass to Illustrator CS2 I remember seeing a tutorial video at Brandon Kowallis website. http://www.brandonkowallis.com/Video.htm He talked about having to import the DXF into Illustrator 9. The resulting illustrator document could then be opened in CS1 or 2. This works for me on the mac. Cheers *�� http://www.abandonednz.com http://www.flickr/photos/kurthtg
Messsage #: 35
Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 21:35:56 -0700 From: "Jon Jasper" Subject: RE: [compass-users] Compass to Illustrator CS2 Cave Mappers, I have had this problem for quite awhile. In the past I had access to a machine with Illustrator 10 which nicely imports DXF and then would save into an Illustrator 10 format to be opened into CS2. However, now I only have access to Illustrator CS2. Illustrator CS/CS2 do not import the Compass DXF format. I tried EXDXF-PRO2. It works as an addin to Illustrator so that all you have to do click a DXF icon and it will convert and open into Illustrator. It works great and is free for 30 imports/exports. Pass that, they ask for $90 fee - for a DXF import feature! Hopefully I will have quite some time to think about with the 30 free imports from EXDXF-PRO. I guess if I exceed that soon I will be learning Stan and Aaron's method of roundtripping to Walls to get a SVG for dynamic loop closures of in-progress maps. JON _____ From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Larry Fish Sent: Saturday, December 09, 2006 1:09 AM Subject: RE: [compass-users] Compass to Illustrator CS2 Jon, I don't have any direct experience working with Illustrator, but I found some discussion on the internet about Adobe dropping DXF support between CS1 and CS2. On the other hand, I went the Adobe web page for Illustrator CS/CS2 and found the following links which imply that CS2 will import DXF: http://www.adobe. com/support/techdocs/322504.html http://www.adobe. com/support/techdocs/325101.html Searching further on the internet, I find lots of programs that claim to convert DXF to Illustrator compatible files: http://exdxf- pro2.baby-universe-inc.qarchive.org/ If Illustrator becomes popular enough among cavers, I might add the ability to export AI file to Compass. Larry _____ From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Jon Jasper Sent: Friday, December 08, 2006 11:28 PM Subject: [compass-users] Compass to Illustrator CS2 Larry, I was wondering if you know a way I can get around how CS/CS2 versions of Illustrator does not support the DXF format that compass uses? JON v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} 1024x768 TextFit Clean Clean DocumentEmail false false false
Messsage #: 36
Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 05:20:10 -0700 From: "Larry Fish" Subject: RE: [compass-users] Compass to Illustrator CS2 This issue illustrates one of the more difficult problems for me as the author of Compass. Compass has been exporting DXF files for more than 10 years. The DXF file format was designed by the company that makes AutoCad, so it is an AutoCad file format. For this reason, every time I make a change to the Compass DXF export feature, I carefully test it with AutoCad to make sure I haven't broken anything and that everything is working properly. It seems to me that AutoCad is the "Gold Standard" when it come to testing DXF. Currently, the files exported Compass work just fine in AutoCad. Since AutoCad is a widely used tool, all kinds of other companies have decided to support the format. In this case, Adobe has chosen to support the format. This is where the problem comes in. Sometimes the companies that support DXF don't get it exactly right. From the discussion on this forum, it appears that at least some versions of Illustrator have a problem reading Compass DXF files. It seems like this probably means that Illustrator has some sort of bug and the correct solution would be for them to fix it. However, given the fact that big companies like Adobe often don't respond to low priority bugs, it probably falls to me to find a work around. At any rate, when I have a chance, I'll see what I can figure out. Larry __
Messsage #: 37
Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 11:56:16 -0700 From: "Jon Jasper" Subject: RE: [compass-users] Compass to Illustrator CS2 Larry, Maybe export to SVG should be looked into. It would be great way to import full-featured lineplots, topographic overlays, and 3D views into a full feature drawing program. JON _____ From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Larry Fish Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2006 5:20 AM Subject: RE: [compass-users] Compass to Illustrator CS2 This issue illustrates one of the more difficult problems for me as the author of Compass. Compass has been exporting DXF files for more than 10 years. The DXF file format was designed by the company that makes AutoCad, so it is an AutoCad file format. For this reason, every time I make a change to the Compass DXF export feature, I carefully test it with AutoCad to make sure I haven't broken anything and that everything is working properly. It seems to me that AutoCad is the "Gold Standard" when it come to testing DXF. Currently, the files exported Compass work just fine in AutoCad. Since AutoCad is a widely used tool, all kinds of other companies have decided to support the format. In this case, Adobe has chosen to support the format. This is where the problem comes in. Sometimes the companies that support DXF don't get it exactly right. From the discussion on this forum, it appears that at least some versions of Illustrator have a problem reading Compass DXF files. It seems like this probably means that Illustrator has some sort of bug and the correct solution would be for them to fix it. However, given the fact that big companies like Adobe often don't respond to low priority bugs, it probably falls to me to find a work around. At any rate, when I have a chance, I'll see what I can figure out. Larry __ v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} 1024x768 TextFit Clean Clean DocumentEmail false false false st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }
Messsage #: 38
Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 13:28:56 -0700 From: "Larry Fish" Subject: RE: [compass-users] Compass to Illustrator CS2 SVG is certainly at the top of my list of things to do. One thing to be aware of is that SVG cannot replace DXF. SVG is a two-dimensional format where as DXF is three dimensional. This means that the 3D modeling of Compass cannot be exported to SVG. I can of course export the 2D passage options such as Polygons, Shaded Cylinders, Open Spline Curves and Filled Spline Curves. One thing that crosses my mind is that Compass can export Windows Meta File and Enhanced Windows Meta data. The WMF/EMF format is also a two-dimensional, vector based format and is scalable just like SVG. I wonder if Illustrator can import either the WMF or EMF file format. If it can, you would have all of the same information that I would be able to export in SVG. Larry _____ From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Jon Jasper Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2006 11:56 AM Subject: RE: [compass-users] Compass to Illustrator CS2 Larry, Maybe export to SVG should be looked into. It would be great way to import full-featured lineplots, topographic overlays, and 3D views into a full feature drawing program. JON _____ From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Larry Fish Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2006 5:20 AM Subject: RE: [compass-users] Compass to Illustrator CS2 This issue illustrates one of the more difficult problems for me as the author of Compass. Compass has been exporting DXF files for more than 10 years. The DXF file format was designed by the company that makes AutoCad, so it is an AutoCad file format. For this reason, every time I make a change to the Compass DXF export feature, I carefully test it with AutoCad to make sure I haven't broken anything and that everything is working properly. It seems to me that AutoCad is the "Gold Standard" when it come to testing DXF. Currently, the files exported Compass work just fine in AutoCad. Since AutoCad is a widely used tool, all kinds of other companies have decided to support the format. In this case, Adobe has chosen to support the format. This is where the problem comes in. Sometimes the companies that support DXF don't get it exactly right. From the discussion on this forum, it appears that at least some versions of Illustrator have a problem reading Compass DXF files. It seems like this probably means that Illustrator has some sort of bug and the correct solution would be for them to fix it. However, given the fact that big companies like Adobe often don't respond to low priority bugs, it probably falls to me to find a work around. At any rate, when I have a chance, I'll see what I can figure out. Larry __ v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }
Messsage #: 39
Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 14:34:20 -0700 From: John Ganter Subject: Experience with Compass page-based export formats One thing that crosses my mind is that Compass can export Windows Meta File and Enhanced Windows Meta data. The WMF/EMF format is also a two-dimensional, vector based format and is scalable just like SVG. I wonder I've tried many Compass export formats over the years, for import into Freehand or AI. These ranged from HPGL (plotter) to BMP, WMF, EMF, and Postscript. The main problems are - These are page layout formats, so they can't maintain world coordinates of feet and miles. - Station labels and dimensions (tics for passage walls) are missing or mis-scaled - Strange clipping problems, e.g. when exporting profiles WMF and EMF are notoriously flakey formats even for one-page graphics. They really can't handle thousands of vectors and "pages" that are 20+ feet long. The biggest problem is controlling station label size. WMF describes the labels in points, so they don't scale properly when you have a cave plot that is thousands of feet on a side. It is very difficult to draw a map when the station labels are invisible or gigantic. I've found DXF to be pretty bad, but workable because it is based on world coordinates (feet) not page coordinates (inches). So you can go from Compass (feet) -- DXF (feet) -- AI (inches) and handle scaling at the last step. With PS, WMF, etc. there is an extra step which messes up everything in my experience. Maybe SVG would be an alternative. FWIW, JG
Messsage #: 40
Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 15:29:31 -0700 From: [email protected] Subject: RE: [compass-users] Compass to Illustrator CS2 I just checked and Illustrator CS1 can import the Compass Windows Meta Files (WMF), but not the Enhanced Windows Meta file. The WMF isn't quite as nice as the Scalable Vector Graphic export from Walls for drafting in Illustrator since the WMF doesn't have the survey lines, survey stations and survey labels on separate layers like the SVG. Having the survey lines, stations and labels on separate layers is nice for being able to turn them on or off and the SVG export from Walls allows you to exchange the default station marker with a station marker symbol of your own choosing in Illustrator. Thanks for all of your excellent work on Compass Larry. I really appreciate all of the time you put into making it such a great program. Stan "Larry Fish" To: Sent by: cc: (bcc: Stan Allison/CAVE/NPS) compass-users@yaho Subject: RE: [compass-users] Compass to Illustrator CS2 ogroups.com 12/10/2006 01:28 PM MST Please respond to compass-users SVG is certainly at the top of my list of things to do. One thing to be aware of is that SVG cannot replace DXF. SVG is a two-dimensional format where as DXF is three dimensional. This means that the 3D modeling of Compass cannot be exported to SVG. I can of course export the 2D passage options such as Polygons, Shaded Cylinders, Open Spline Curves and Filled Spline Curves. One thing that crosses my mind is that Compass can export Windows Meta File and Enhanced Windows Meta data. The WMF/EMF format is also a two-dimensional, vector based format and is scalable just like SVG. I wonder if Illustrator can import either the WMF or EMF file format. If it can, you would have all of the same information that I would be able to export in SVG. Larry From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Jon Jasper Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2006 11:56 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: [compass-users] Compass to Illustrator CS2 Larry, Maybe export to SVG should be looked into. It would be great way to import full-featured lineplots, topographic overlays, and 3D views into a full feature drawing program. JON From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Larry Fish Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2006 5:20 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: [compass-users] Compass to Illustrator CS2 This issue illustrates one of the more difficult problems for me as the author of Compass. Compass has been exporting DXF files for more than 10 years. The DXF file format was designed by the company that makes AutoCad, so it is an AutoCad file format. For this reason, every time I make a change to the Compass DXF export feature, I carefully test it with AutoCad to make sure I haven�?Tt broken anything and that everything is working properly. It seems to me that AutoCad is the �?oGold Standard�?? when it come to testing DXF. Currently, the files exported Compass work just fine in AutoCad. Since AutoCad is a widely used tool, all kinds of other companies have decided to support the format. In this case, Adobe has chosen to support the format. This is where the problem comes in. Sometimes the companies that support DXF don�?Tt get it exactly right. From the discussion on this forum, it appears that at least some versions of Illustrator have a problem reading Compass DXF files. It seems like this probably means that Illustrator has some sort of bug and the correct solution would be for them to fix it. However, given the fact that big companies like Adobe often don�?Tt respond to low priority bugs, it probably falls to me to find a work around. At any rate, when I have a chance, I�?Tll see what I can figure out. Larry __
Messsage #: 41
Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 17:55:53 -0600 From: "Aaron Addison" Subject: RE: [compass-users] Experience with Compass page-based export formats Good information John, thanks for the post. Has anyone out there experimented with printing from Compass to Adobe Distiller to generate a PDF and then tried opening that in Illustrator CS2 (or any version of AI). My guess is that it would work, but of course would require purchasing Distiller or using a freeware PDF creator. PDF file are still a vector format and you should have control over scaling from the Compass side. Justa thought- Aaron ________________________________ From: [email protected] on behalf of John Ganter Sent: Sun 12/10/2006 3:34 PM Subject: [compass-users] Experience with Compass page-based export formats One thing that crosses my mind is that Compass can export Windows Meta File and Enhanced Windows Meta data. The WMF/EMF format is also a two-dimensional, vector based format and is scalable just like SVG. I wonder I've tried many Compass export formats over the years, for import into Freehand or AI. These ranged from HPGL (plotter) to BMP, WMF, EMF, and Postscript. The main problems are - These are page layout formats, so they can't maintain world coordinates of feet and miles. - Station labels and dimensions (tics for passage walls) are missing or mis-scaled - Strange clipping problems, e.g. when exporting profiles WMF and EMF are notoriously flakey formats even for one-page graphics. They really can't handle thousands of vectors and "pages" that are 20+ feet long. The biggest problem is controlling station label size. WMF describes the labels in points, so they don't scale properly when you have a cave plot that is thousands of feet on a side. It is very difficult to draw a map when the station labels are invisible or gigantic. I've found DXF to be pretty bad, but workable because it is based on world coordinates (feet) not page coordinates (inches). So you can go from Compass (feet) -- DXF (feet) -- AI (inches) and handle scaling at the last step. With PS, WMF, etc. there is an extra step which messes up everything in my experience. Maybe SVG would be an alternative. FWIW, JG
Messsage #: 42
Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 19:00:40 -0700 From: John Ganter Subject: Compass plot to PDF to AI: A Test After Stan's post I did a search for Wmf Compass plots in my files and found several that actually look pretty good for small areas (8.5 x 11). The problem, I still think, is bigger plots. Aaron asked: Has anyone out there experimented with printing from Compass to Adobe Distiller to generate a PDF and then tried opening that in Illustrator CS2 (or any version of AI). My guess is that it would work, but of course would require purchasing Distiller or using a freeware PDF I remember trying this, but couldn't recall the results. Here is a quick test. In Compass I just plotted a cave with an area 2600 by 1600 feet at 50 feet/inch, then printed to Acrobat with a page size of about 8 x 10 feet. I set the station labels to 4 points. Here is the resulting PDF (a screenshot of Acrobat), which looks pretty good: http://www.darkfrontier.us/computing/Compass/T1.jpg Panning to another area that is more complex, the appearance is still good but the labels are missing for some reason (they are all present in the Compass display) http://www.darkfrontier.us/computing/Compass/T2.jpg Finally I dropped the PDF into AI CS where it looks like this http://www.darkfrontier.us/computing/Compass/T3.jpg So, printing to PDF at full scale and then dropping the PDF into AI looks pretty good (AI files are PS/PDF files, essentially). Unfortunately, this does not work with Freehand which I still prefer over AI. ;) On the other hand, FH should import .ai files but I can't get it to work right now. --JG
Messsage #: 43
Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 22:40:52 -0600 From: "Aaron Addison" Subject: RE: [compass-users] Compass plot to PDF to AI: A Test I ran some quick tests as well and was able to produce a D Size (24"x36") PDF of the fulford.plt file with the Acrobat PDF driver. The file opened perfectly in AI CS2. I also trolled around on the web and ran across this site: http://www.svgmaker.com A $50 SVG windows print driver that was able to produce a SVG file from Compass (again with fulford.plt) and opened with only minor problems (like line weights) in AI CS2. I tested the SVG with the Adobe SVG plug-in for Internet Explorer as well with no errors. Aaron