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Messsage #: 67
Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 13:39:37 -0000
From: "hkalnitz" 
Subject: Compass to Illustrator - Redux

Folks
Just went through this over the weekend again and tuned in here to see 
if there was any previous help/discussion. I went through the 
discussion from Dec 2006, but really didn't see a good solution, so I 
am asking if I am missing something.
I am trying to import a scaled lineplot on which to lay my sketches. I 
am used to using Jim Olsens plug in for illustrator 10, but we all 
know that doesnt work for CS.
I can import DXF through Autocad, but it is not scaled correctly, thus 
if I add survey and update, I will have to redo scaling again and 
again.
My best option so far has been to convert the datafile to walls, and 
use its export funtion, which will export a scaled WMF, but the fonts 
are flaky...
I would love to see something like Jims plug in, but he is out of the 
business (I hear he has to pedal a generator 2 miles just to read his 
e-mail) 
Any help or updates?
Howard


Messsage #: 68
Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 14:31:56 -0000
From: "caveresource" 
Subject: Re: Compass to Illustrator - Redux

H-

I've looked at this in the past, without much success.  The next step 
I was thinking of doing was to generate a DXF from AI and compare the 
structure of the DXF exported with one created by Compass.  

Another option would be to download a copy of MicroStation 
PowerDraft.  It is free, and last time I ran a Compass DXF through 
it, I was then able to open it in AI.  Available at: 

http://www.be.org/en-US/BE+Careers/PowerDraft+Download.htm

Hopefully Larry can find a way to update the DXF export in Compass or 
switch over to supporting something like SVG since Adobe is heavily 
invested in that technology.

Good luck-

Aaron

 Folks
 Just went through this over the weekend again and tuned in here to 
see 
 if there was any previous help/discussion. I went through the 
 discussion from Dec 2006, but really didn't see a good solution, so 
I 
 am asking if I am missing something.
 I am trying to import a scaled lineplot on which to lay my 
sketches. I 
 am used to using Jim Olsens plug in for illustrator 10, but we all 
 know that doesnt work for CS.
 I can import DXF through Autocad, but it is not scaled correctly, 
thus 
 if I add survey and update, I will have to redo scaling again and 
 again.
 My best option so far has been to convert the datafile to walls, 
and 
 use its export funtion, which will export a scaled WMF, but the 
fonts 
 are flaky...
 I would love to see something like Jims plug in, but he is out of 
the 
 business (I hear he has to pedal a generator 2 miles just to read 
his 
 e-mail) 
 Any help or updates?
 Howard


Messsage #: 69
Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 15:59:44 -0000
From: "Rick" 
Subject: Re: Compass to Illustrator - Redux

I've been trying this and it seems like it works pretty good.

Go here:
http://www.cutepdf.com/Products/CutePDF/writer.asp
and download the free .pdf writer.

Once it's installed you will be able to save any file as a .pdf.(It
will show up as another printer in your printer list.)

Save your lineplot as a pdf.  Now you can place it in Illustrator as a
layer.  You can now directly edit the line plot or, if you want to
spend the extra time, and retrace the whole thing.

Hope this helps!
Rick
 
 H-
 
 I've looked at this in the past, without much success.  The next step 
 I was thinking of doing was to generate a DXF from AI and compare the 
 structure of the DXF exported with one created by Compass.  
 
 Another option would be to download a copy of MicroStation 
 PowerDraft.  It is free, and last time I ran a Compass DXF through 
 it, I was then able to open it in AI.  Available at: 
 
 http://www.be.org/en-US/BE+Careers/PowerDraft+Download.htm
 
 Hopefully Larry can find a way to update the DXF export in Compass or 
 switch over to supporting something like SVG since Adobe is heavily 
 invested in that technology.
 
 Good luck-
 
 Aaron
 
 --- In [email protected], "hkalnitz"  wrote:
 
  Folks
  Just went through this over the weekend again and tuned in here to 
 see 
  if there was any previous help/discussion. I went through the 
  discussion from Dec 2006, but really didn't see a good solution, so 
 I 
  am asking if I am missing something.
  I am trying to import a scaled lineplot on which to lay my 
 sketches. I 
  am used to using Jim Olsens plug in for illustrator 10, but we all 
  know that doesnt work for CS.
  I can import DXF through Autocad, but it is not scaled correctly, 
 thus 
  if I add survey and update, I will have to redo scaling again and 
  again.
  My best option so far has been to convert the datafile to walls, 
 and 
  use its export funtion, which will export a scaled WMF, but the 
 fonts 
  are flaky...
  I would love to see something like Jims plug in, but he is out of 
 the 
  business (I hear he has to pedal a generator 2 miles just to read 
 his 
  e-mail) 
  Any help or updates?
  Howard


Messsage #: 70
Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 23:10:34 +0100
From: Torstein Finnesand 
Subject: Re: [compass-users] Re: Compass to Illustrator - Redux

I open the .plt file in Aven (Survex). From Aven I export it in 
SVG.format. And Adobe illustrator reads it.

NS

 I've been trying this and it seems like it works pretty good.

 Go here:
 http://www.cutepdf.com/Products/CutePDF/writer.asp 
 
 and download the free .pdf writer.

 Once it's installed you will be able to save any file as a .pdf.(It
 will show up as another printer in your printer list.)

 Save your lineplot as a pdf. Now you can place it in Illustrator as a
 layer. You can now directly edit the line plot or, if you want to
 spend the extra time, and retrace the whole thing.

 Hope this helps!
 Rick

 --- In [email protected] 
 , "caveresource" 
  wrote:
 
  H-
 
  I've looked at this in the past, without much success. The next step
  I was thinking of doing was to generate a DXF from AI and compare the
  structure of the DXF exported with one created by Compass.
 
  Another option would be to download a copy of MicroStation
  PowerDraft. It is free, and last time I ran a Compass DXF through
  it, I was then able to open it in AI. Available at:
 
  http://www.be.org/en-US/BE+Careers/PowerDraft+Download.htm 
 
  Hopefully Larry can find a way to update the DXF export in Compass or
  switch over to supporting something like SVG since Adobe is heavily
  invested in that technology.
 
  Good luck-
 
  Aaron
 
  --- In [email protected] 
 , "hkalnitz"  wrote:
  
   Folks
   Just went through this over the weekend again and tuned in here to
  see
   if there was any previous help/discussion. I went through the
   discussion from Dec 2006, but really didn't see a good solution, so
  I
   am asking if I am missing something.
   I am trying to import a scaled lineplot on which to lay my
  sketches. I
   am used to using Jim Olsens plug in for illustrator 10, but we all
   know that doesnt work for CS.
   I can import DXF through Autocad, but it is not scaled correctly,
  thus
   if I add survey and update, I will have to redo scaling again and
   again.
   My best option so far has been to convert the datafile to walls,
  and
   use its export funtion, which will export a scaled WMF, but the
  fonts
   are flaky...
   I would love to see something like Jims plug in, but he is out of
  the
   business (I hear he has to pedal a generator 2 miles just to read
  his
   e-mail)
   Any help or updates?
   Howard

I open the .plt file in Aven (Survex). From Aven I export it in
SVG.format. And Adobe illustrator reads it.

Torstein
Torstein Finnesand
adresse: Sølve Solfengsvei 4A. 0956 Oslo
mobil: 41278803, fasttlf: 21923992
e-post: leses tre-fire ganger i uken
e-post: kan ta i mot vedlegg på 10 MB

Rick skrev:
  
  I've been trying this and it seems like it works pretty good.
  
Go here:
  http://www.cutepdf.com/Products/CutePDF/writer.asp
and download the free .pdf writer.
  
Once it's installed you will be able to save any file as a .pdf.(It
will show up as another printer in your printer list.)
  
Save your lineplot as a pdf. Now you can place it in Illustrator as a
layer. You can now directly edit the line plot or, if you want to
spend the extra time, and retrace the whole thing.
  
Hope this helps!
Rick
  
"caveresource" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> 
> H-
> 
> I've looked at this in the past, without much success. The next
step 
> I was thinking of doing was to generate a DXF from AI and compare
the 
> structure of the DXF exported with one created by Compass. 
> 
> Another option would be to download a copy of MicroStation 
> PowerDraft. It is free, and last time I ran a Compass DXF through 
> it, I was then able to open it in AI. Available at: 
> 
> http://www.be.org/en-US/BE+Careers/PowerDraft+Download.htm
> 
> Hopefully Larry can find a way to update the DXF export in Compass
or 
> switch over to supporting something like SVG since Adobe is
heavily 
> invested in that technology.
> 
> Good luck-
> 
> Aaron
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In [email protected],
"hkalnitz" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > Folks
> > Just went through this over the weekend again and tuned in
here to 
> see 
> > if there was any previous help/discussion. I went through the
  
> > discussion from Dec 2006, but really didn't see a good
solution, so 
> I 
> > am asking if I am missing something.
> > I am trying to import a scaled lineplot on which to lay my 
> sketches. I 
> > am used to using Jim Olsens plug in for illustrator 10, but
we all 
> > know that doesnt work for CS.
> > I can import DXF through Autocad, but it is not scaled
correctly, 
> thus 
> > if I add survey and update, I will have to redo scaling again
and 
> > again.
> > My best option so far has been to convert the datafile to
walls, 
> and 
> > use its export funtion, which will export a scaled WMF, but
the 
> fonts 
> > are flaky...
> > I would love to see something like Jims plug in, but he is
out of 
> the 
> > business (I hear he has to pedal a generator 2 miles just to
read 
> his 
> > e-mail) 
> > Any help or updates?
> > Howard
> >
>


Messsage #: 71
Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 14:14:31 -0700
From: "Larry Fish" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] Re: Compass to Illustrator - Redux

Thanks everybody for your input. You have come up with some interesting
solution that I didn't know about. Here are few comments:

 I can import DXF through Autocad, but it is not scaled

 correctly, thus if I add survey and update, I will have to

 redo scaling again and again.

The DXF data is exported from Compass un-scaled. In other words, if a shot
is 100 feet long, the line in the DXF file says it is 100 units long. The
basic concept of Autocad is that it is used to for Computer aided design and
so the original measurements are always retained in the DXF file.

Compass does have a scaling option for the DXF output that allows you to
change the DXF file measurements by a certain percentage. For example, if
you set the scaling to 50%, the 100-foot shot would be exported as 50-feet.

 My best option so far has been to convert the datafile to

 walls, and use its export funtion, which will export a

 scaled WMF, but the fonts are flaky...

Compass can export the data as WMF or EMF. The option is under "Files" then
"Save Screen Image" in the Viewer. There is also an option to scale the
WMF/EMF files. I don't know how well it works compared to Walls, but it
seemed to work fine with all the programs I tried.

 I would love to see something like Jims plug in, but he is

 out of the business (I hear he has to pedal a generator 2

 miles just to read his e-mail) Any help or updates?

I haven't heard anything from Jim Wilson for months and Caver's Digest seems
to have vanished. Even his web site hasn't been updated for a long time. I
assume that means that Jim has moved on to other things.

 Hopefully Larry can find a way to update the DXF export in

 Compass or switch over to supporting something like SVG

 since Adobe is heavily invested in that technology.

Working with the DXF file format over the years has been frustrating. The
DXF format was developed by Autocad for their programs and I have always
used Autocad as the standard for testing my DXF exports. The frustrating
part is that other programs like Corel and Adobe Illustrator change the
standard to suit their needs. This forces me to spend a lot of time figuring
out what they are doing different and often times what they are doing is
completely incompatible with the Autocad standard. It also forces me to buy
a lot of this very expensive software just to be sure I maintain
compatibility. 

In general, I plan to support SVG in the near future. Right now, I am
spending most of my time reworking the 3D modeling aspects of Compass. For
the last 10 years, I have been using the DirectX "Retained Mode" to display
3D passages. With the release of Vista, Microsoft completely dropped support
for "Retained Mode" and so I was forced to go a different route. 

I have chosen to go with OpenGL, which is a cross platform solution that is
widely supported. OpenGL doesn't have a "Retained Mode" system, so I have
been forced to write my own, which is a major programming task (6-months.) I
have made a lot of progress and I have an OpenGL version of CaveX up and
running that duplicates most of the functions of the DirectX version.
However, there is still a lot more to do to make my "Retained-Mode OpenGl"
implementation as flexible and useful as the original. Ultimately, my goal
is to integrate the 2D and 3D graphics into the same program instead of
having two separate programs with different human interfaces. 

Thanks again for all your input.

Larry.

v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}

st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }


Messsage #: 72
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 21:48:56 -0000
From: "hkalnitz" 
Subject: Re: Compass to Illustrator - Redux

 The DXF data is exported from Compass un-scaled. In other words, if
a shot
 is 100 feet long, the line in the DXF file says it is 100 units
long. The
 basic concept of Autocad is that it is used to for Computer aided
design and
 so the original measurements are always retained in the DXF file.

I found this to be correct - however my issues was getting the DXF
generated lineplot back OUT of autocad into Illustrator. However based
on something Aaron said, I resaved the DXF as a earlier version and
then was able to open it in illustrator scaled correctly. I have
autocad 2000, and I think I saved the DXF as autocad R12

 Compass can export the data as WMF or EMF. The option is under
"Files" then
 "Save Screen Image" in the Viewer. There is also an option to scale the
 WMF/EMF files. I don't know how well it works compared to Walls, but it
 seemed to work fine with all the programs I tried.
 
What I would like is to export it at 20 ft to the inch - what DPI
would I have to set to get this scale? I am afraid I don't quite
follow the help file here. Walls specifically allow me to set this
scaling - which is what I use when sketching to scale, and adding
notes as they come out of the cave.   

Having said all of the above, I do have one or two techniques to get
what is needed, although they both involve a secondary step. I was
hoping I had missed something, but it doesn't seem so.
Larry - Don't spend anytime on this - continue your excellent work and
this will all go away when you get around to SVG
Thanks
Howard


Messsage #: 73
Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 01:58:20 -0700
From: "Larry Fish" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] Re: Compass to Illustrator - Redux

Howard,

Thanks for your letter. I did a little more thinking about the problem:

 What I would like is to export it at 20 ft to the inch - what DPI
 would I have to set to get this scale? I am afraid I don't quite
 follow the help file here. Walls specifically allow me to set this
 scaling - which is what I use when sketching to scale, and adding
 notes as they come out of the cave. 

When Windows displays an image on the screen, it does it at a certain number
of Dots Per Inch (DPI). It is usually 96 DPI, but it may be a different
value. You can find the current value by right clicking on the
Windows-Desktop background and selecting the "Properties" option. On the
"Settings" page, press the "Advanced Button" and you should see a "DPI"
value on the "General Page."

When I display an image in Compass, I configure Windows so that the cave
plot matches the screen scale. In other words, if the Compass scale is 100
feet per inch, a 100-foot passage will be one inch long. More importantly,
if Windows is set to 96 pixels per inch, the shot will be 96 pixels long.
(In reality, the actual measured length will depend on the size of the
monitor, but the main thing is that Windows thinks its 96 pixels long and
thinks that value is one inch.)

One of the reasons I do this is because Windows will now guarantee that the
printed plot will be exactly to scale no matter what kind of printer or
plotter you are using. That saves me having to do anything special with
different kinds of printers.

With the WMF/EMF files, I can specify the size of the image in pixels, but
since I don't know how it will be used, I don't know how it will be
displayed. For example, if the image is 100 ft per inch on a 96
pixel-per-inch video display, it will be on 32 feet per inch on a 300x300
printer. As a result, the key thing is knowing the pixels-per-inch of the
display device. This is why Compass allows you to adjust the DPI. It's also
why it shows what the scale will be at that specified DPI.

I'm not sure how Illustrator handles the Meta Files. It could be that it
just assumes the DPI is the same as the printer or the screen. If it is the
same as the Printer, you could try something like 300, 600 or 1200 DPI,
which are typical printer resolutions.

Here are some steps you can follow to test that theory:

1. Find out the screen resolution of your system. It is probably 96-dpi, but
you probably should check using the method I described above.

2. Use the following equation to calculate the Scale you need:

Compass Scale = Desired Scale * (Printer DPI/Screen DPI)

As an example, let say you want 100 feet per inch and you are using a
printer DPI of 300 and Screen DPI of 96 you'd get the following result:

Compass Scale = 100 * (300/96)

Compass Scale = 312.50

3. Go to the "Action - "Scale, Magnification, Rotation" option on the menu
bar and enter the new scale value. In this case, it would be 312.5.

4. Now go to the WMF/EMF export option and set the DPI to whatever you have
chosen for the Printer. In this case it would be 300. The Scale display in
the WMF/EMF should now show 100 ft/in.

5. You now should be able to export the Meta File at the proper scale for
that DPI. Now read it into Illustrator and see if it works.

If it doesn't work the first time, I would try several DPI's like 600, 1200,
2400, etc, because these are common printer resolutions and it is likely
that Illustrator is using one of them. At the very least should be able to
find something that works by trial and error.

If this concept works, I will add a feature that will allow you to set the
scale directly in the WMF/EMF dialog box. If it doesn't work, I will look at
the problem in more depth when I have some time.

Let me know what happens.

Larry 


Messsage #: 74
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 16:53:29 -0000
From: "Jon Jasper" 
Subject: 3D PDF

Did you know that 3D caves can be displayed with Acrobat?

If you have Acrobat 8.1 check this out.
http://jonjasper.com/pdf3D/Timpanogos%20Cave%20System.pdf

You can if you can find some kind of way to convert Compass's or 
ArcGIS's Virtual World file .wrl into the adobe Portable Document 
Format (PDF).

The problem is most of the conversion techniques are a bit expensive 
and inaccessible.  Probably the best way is to own Acrobat 3D 
(http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat3d/).  Also the newer 3D CAD 
software can export directly into a 3D PDF.  

However, I did not have access to Acrobat 3D, Microstation, or like.  
I used an updated version of Deep Exploration, a 3D format version 
software.  This software converts .wrl files into a .pdf files.  Or 
you can convert the file in a Universal 3D file (.u3d) which can be 
imported into Photoshop CS3 extended and Acrobat 7 or better.  Being 
able to import the file into other programs open the ability to a bit 
of artistic rendering.

Acrobat 8.1 is needed to handle acrobat new 3D file compression.  The 
file compression amazingly slims down large .wrl files.  The feature 
is really great for large caves or ArcGIS 3D views.  The file 
compression took the following view of Chosa Draw ACEC outside of 
Carlsbad taht was about 90 MB in .wrl and created a 2 MB pdf. 
http://jonjasper.com/pdf3D/Timpanogos%20Cave%20System.pdf 

So here is the bad news.  These software programs are a bit pricy: 
Acrobat 3D is $699 and Deep Exploration is $1500 for an upgrade.  
However, both have trial versions.    


Messsage #: 75
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 05:29:48 -0000
From: "hkalnitz" 
Subject: Re: Compass to Illustrator - Redux

Larry
Sorry for the delay. 
I did try some of the steps you outlined, with no success. I am 
afraid I will never sound like I know what I am doing here, because 
I don't.

However the area I seem seem to get hung up on is the fact that I am 
exporting only a picture of what the screen shows me in the plot. 
When I reset the scale to approximate what I am drawing the map to 
(20 ft/in to match my notes) Compass does just that. However now, 
instead of seeing the entire cave I only see a small section of it. 
When I export this I only see what is displayed my screen at the 
time I do the export. 
Pasted into Illustrator, it is correct, but again it is only that 
section shown on my screen. From what I can see there is a mismatch 
between scaling the map correctly and sending the entire data set at 
once : to get the entire cave onto the screenprint the scale has to 
much smaller then true scale.

Does this explaination make sense? Am I missing something?
Howard
 
 With the WMF/EMF files, I can specify the size of the image in 
pixels, but
 since I don't know how it will be used, I don't know how it will be
 displayed. For example, if the image is 100 ft per inch on a 96
 pixel-per-inch video display, it will be on 32 feet per inch on a 
300x300
 printer. As a result, the key thing is knowing the pixels-per-inch 
of the
 display device. This is why Compass allows you to adjust the DPI. 
It's also
 why it shows what the scale will be at that specified DPI.
 
 I'm not sure how Illustrator handles the Meta Files. It could be 
that it
 just assumes the DPI is the same as the printer or the screen. If 
it is the
 same as the Printer, you could try something like 300, 600 or 1200 
DPI,
 which are typical printer resolutions.
 
 Here are some steps you can follow to test that theory:
 
 1. Find out the screen resolution of your system. It is probably 
96-dpi, but
 you probably should check using the method I described above.
 
 2. Use the following equation to calculate the Scale you need:
 
 Compass Scale = Desired Scale * (Printer DPI/Screen DPI)
 
 As an example, let say you want 100 feet per inch and you are 
using a
 printer DPI of 300 and Screen DPI of 96 you'd get the following 
result:
 
 Compass Scale = 100 * (300/96)
 
 Compass Scale = 312.50


Messsage #: 76
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 21:34:06 -0700
From: "Larry Fish" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] Re: Compass to Illustrator - Redux

Howard,

 I did try some of the steps you outlined, with no success. I

 am afraid I will never sound like I know what I am doing

 here, because I don't.

Don't feel bad. It is a complicated topic.

 However the area I seem  to get hung up on is the fact that I am 

 exporting only a picture of what the screen shows me in the plot. 

The Windows Meta Files (WMF/EMF) are designed to capture the commands that
are sent to Windows when an image is drawn on the screen. When I produce a
Meta File, I do it by capturing the commands I would normally send to the
screen. As a result, the Meta produces an image that is identical to the
image that appears on the screen. Because the screen is a certain size,
there is a limit to how much of the cave can be displayed at a particular
scale. I may be able to expand the area displayed but that would require an
extensive rewrite of the display routines.

Meta Files were really not intended as a way of importing cave data into
another program. They were really intended as a way of capturing a high
quality screen image. As such, it is not much better than a bitmap. The only
advantage of a Meta File is that it can be scaled in two dimensions without
pixelating.

Formats like DXF and Shapefiles truly export the fundamental 3D information
about the cave and so they are the preferred export format. It looks like
working with Illustrator is going to require that Compass export SVG files.
It is already on my list of things to do, but I don't have time to make it
happen right now. I'm hoping to have more time later this spring to work on
general upgrades to Compass. If I do have time, that will be one of the
areas I will spend some time on.

Sorry I couldn't be more helpful.

Larry

  _____  

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of hkalnitz
Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2008 10:30 PM
Subject: [compass-users] Re: Compass to Illustrator - Redux

Larry
Sorry for the delay. 
I did try some of the steps you outlined, with no success. I am 
afraid I will never sound like I know what I am doing here, because 
I don't.

However the area I seem seem to get hung up on is the fact that I am 
exporting only a picture of what the screen shows me in the plot. 
When I reset the scale to approximate what I am drawing the map to 
(20 ft/in to match my notes) Compass does just that. However now, 
instead of seeing the entire cave I only see a small section of it. 
When I export this I only see what is displayed my screen at the 
time I do the export. 
Pasted into Illustrator, it is correct, but again it is only that 
section shown on my screen. From what I can see there is a mismatch 
between scaling the map correctly and sending the entire data set at 
once : to get the entire cave onto the screenprint the scale has to 
much smaller then true scale.

Does this explaination make sense? Am I missing something?
Howard
 
 With the WMF/EMF files, I can specify the size of the image in 
pixels, but
 since I don't know how it will be used, I don't know how it will be
 displayed. For example, if the image is 100 ft per inch on a 96
 pixel-per-inch video display, it will be on 32 feet per inch on a 
300x300
 printer. As a result, the key thing is knowing the pixels-per-inch 
of the
 display device. This is why Compass allows you to adjust the DPI. 
It's also
 why it shows what the scale will be at that specified DPI.
 
 I'm not sure how Illustrator handles the Meta Files. It could be 
that it
 just assumes the DPI is the same as the printer or the screen. If 
it is the
 same as the Printer, you could try something like 300, 600 or 1200 
DPI,
 which are typical printer resolutions.
 
 Here are some steps you can follow to test that theory:
 
 1. Find out the screen resolution of your system. It is probably 
96-dpi, but
 you probably should check using the method I described above.
 
 2. Use the following equation to calculate the Scale you need:
 
 Compass Scale = Desired Scale * (Printer DPI/Screen DPI)
 
 As an example, let say you want 100 feet per inch and you are 
using a
 printer DPI of 300 and Screen DPI of 96 you'd get the following 
result:
 
 Compass Scale = 100 * (300/96)
 
 Compass Scale = 312.50

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.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}

st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }


Messsage #: 77
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 19:57:52 -0000
From: "caveresource" 
Subject: Re: Compass to Illustrator - Redux

I tried this today with success:

1. Open plt file in viewer
2. Set desired scale (Action-Scale)
3. Set printer driver to Adobe PDF (File-Printer setup)
4. Set page size to cover entire area of interest (plot area)
5. Print to PDF
6. Start Adobe Illustrator and open PDF
7. Scale should be correct (at least it was on mine and printed true)

Notes: 

A. By default Compass appears to make the vectors 1 pixel wide.  This 
can be problematic when printing from AI.  Make the adjustments in 
the File-Printer options-Settings tab or select all vectors and 
increase stroke width in AI.  BTW:  1 pixel = 0.06in

B. Of course you'll need a PDF print driver for this workflow. You 
have this if you purchased AI or Adobe Acrobat Professional.  

Other options would be to try one of the free PDF printer drivers or 
to investigate printing to a postscript file and running that through 
something like ghostscript.  

Cheers-

Aaron


Messsage #: 78
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 15:04:13 -0700
From: "Larry Fish" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] Re: Compass to Illustrator - Redux

Aaron,

Thanks for this great information. Since I don't have a copy of Illustrator,
I don't have a way to experiment with scales and different input options. I
think it probably solves the problem until I have time to add SVG support.

Larry

  _____  

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of caveresource
Sent: Monday, January 28, 2008 12:58 PM
Subject: [compass-users] Re: Compass to Illustrator - Redux

I tried this today with success:

1. Open plt file in viewer
2. Set desired scale (Action-Scale)
3. Set printer driver to Adobe PDF (File-Printer setup)
4. Set page size to cover entire area of interest (plot area)
5. Print to PDF
6. Start Adobe Illustrator and open PDF
7. Scale should be correct (at least it was on mine and printed true)

Notes: 

A. By default Compass appears to make the vectors 1 pixel wide. This 
can be problematic when printing from AI. Make the adjustments in 
the File-Printer options-Settings tab or select all vectors and 
increase stroke width in AI. BTW: 1 pixel = 0.06in

B. Of course you'll need a PDF print driver for this workflow. You 
have this if you purchased AI or Adobe Acrobat Professional. 

Other options would be to try one of the free PDF printer drivers or 
to investigate printing to a postscript file and running that through 
something like ghostscript. 

Cheers-

Aaron

v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}

st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }


Messsage #: 79
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 22:53:14 -0000
From: "caveguenter" 
Subject: Load Bitmap Adjust Bitmap and so on

Hi all together,
after a long time of rest I have again reached a point were I have to
cry for help.
The main problem/wish is to have a fixed topografic bitmap which fits
my cave, so no further zooming is necessary, adjusting manually the
position is ok, but I want to have a bitmap, which fits my cave, if I
use the scale of 100 Meter/cm, so that I don't have to rezoom it again
and again.

First: Whenever I lock a bitmap, the bitmap shrinks on the screen,
where is the switch to stop that shrinking? I thought, that locking
means just zooming the bitmap with the cave, _if_ I would do so. But
it shrinks immediately, just by setting the 'Lock image to Cave' check
mark. (Version 5.07.8.29.243 of the Plot Viewer)

Second: With my cave at a scale of 100 Meter/cm I tried to prepare a
topografic bitmap, which fits. But it does not. I think, that
some/thing/one changes the DPI or whatever. What are the real
conversion figures to adapt my bitmap?
My topografic bitmap has 4000*3000 pixel at 72ppi (28,346 pixel/cm).
4000 pixel equals 5 km in nature. (At least this is what I can see in
Photoshop) 
If I load it into Compass, the image size is shown (Adjust Bitmap
Background) as 4000*3000 pixel and also is shown that this equals 6699
(X) * 5024,3 (Y) Meters at a scale of 1.00. What has changed? And
locking does shrink my bitmap (not the polygon) by a certain factor.

Btw. the Image Position shows always only the indication "Ft." not
"M.", but it really changes the values to Meter or Feet. 

Thanks
Guenter


Messsage #: 80
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 20:32:35 -0700
From: "Larry Fish" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] Load Bitmap Adjust Bitmap and so on

Hi Guenter,

Thanks for your letter.

 after a long time of rest I have again reached a point

 were I have to cry for help.

Sorry you are having trouble getting your bitmap to align with the plot.
These tools are pretty complicated and take a bit of practice to get them to
work right.

 The main problem/wish is to have a fixed topografic bitmap

 which fits my cave, so no further zooming is necessary,

 adjusting manually the position is ok, but I want to have a

 bitmap, which fits my cave, if I use the scale of 100

 Meter/cm, so that I don't have to rezoom it again and again.

The scaling values that are contained in bitmap images are very seldom
accurate. On the other hand, the cave survey is generally much more accurate
since it is made up of dozens of hand measurements. For that reason, Compass
ignores the scale values you find inside a bitmap. As a result, the process
of matching a cave to a bitmap is done by re-scaling the image, not the
cave. When you set the cave's scaling to 100 Meters/cm your are only setting
it for the purpose of printing or display. It does not have an effect on
matching the cave to a bitmap.

 First: Whenever I lock a bitmap, the bitmap shrinks on the

 screen, where is the switch to stop that shrinking?

Again, Compass adjusts the bitmap to fit the cave, not the other way around.
The bitmap shrinks because you have already zoomed the cave to a different
size/scale. When you enable the "Lock-Image-To-Cave" option, the program
realizes that you have changed the size of the cave and it resizes the
bitmap to match.

 Second: With my cave at a scale of 100 Meter/cm I tried to

 prepare a topografic bitmap, which fits. But it does not. I

 think, that some/thing/one changes the DPI or whatever. What

 are the real conversion figures to adapt my bitmap? My

 topografic bitmap has 4000*3000 pixel at 72ppi (28,346 pixel/cm).

 4000 pixel equals 5 km in nature. (At least this is what I can see in

 Photoshop) 

The values you see in Photoshop may not even be included in the bitmap and
so Compass does not even attempt to use them.

Here are the steps you need to take to adjust a bitmap to match your cave.

1. Load the cave data into the Compass Viewer. Don't worry about the cave
scale factor at this point.

2. Load the bitmap into the Viewer using the "File - Load Bitmap" option
from the Menu Bar.

3. Select the "File - Adjust Bitmap" option from the Menu Bar.

4. Immediately turn on the "Lock-Image-To-Cave" option.

5. Now use the "Move Bitmap" buttons to move the Bitmap so the location of
the entrance matches the entrance on the plot of the cave.

6. Now adjust the Scale so the bitmap is the proper size for the cave. This
is hardest part. I usually try to find something on the bitmap that is of a
known size. For example, if it a topographic map, you can usually find grid
lines, a length of road, a lake or just any two land marks. If you measure
their distance on the topographic map, you will know how long they should be
in relation to the cave. Once you have identified an object of a known size,
select the "Tools - Measure Distance/Angles" option in Compass. This will
allow you to measure the size of the object on the bitmap. If the object
measures too big or too small, adjust the Bitmap Scale in the "Adjust Bitmap
Background" window. Keep re-measuring and adjusting until the error is very
small.

7. Final step is to adjust the rotation. If you have used the proper
Declination on all your survey files, the cave should be aligned to True
North. If the bitmap is also aligned to True North, then you won't have to
do any rotating. However, if the cave does not have any declinations and the
cave plot will be aligned to magnetic north and so you may have to rotate
the bitmap. Likewise, many bitmap images are not aligned to True north. If
that is the case, then you will also have to do some rotating.

In all this process, you can use the regular Pan, Zoom and Rotate options in
Compass to position the cave and the bitmap where you want. Since you have
locked the cave and the bitmap together, changing the overall rotation, pan
and zoom position won't affect the relative position of the cave and bitmap.

8. Once the Bitmap and the Cave have been adjusted to match each other, you
can now close all the "Tool" windows and navigate as would normally do in
Compass. You can zoom, pan and rotate, and the cave and bitmap image will
track each other. You can now set the overall Scale to any value you want
(including 100 meters/cm) and the cave and bitmap will print at that scale.
The value is set using the "Action - Scale, Magnification, Rotation" option
from the menu bar.

There are couple caveats with this process:

First, very large bitmaps may be slow to update, particularly when you do
any rotations. This is dependent on the kind of computer you have and the
graphic card drivers. Your bitmap is 3000x4000, which is pretty large. If
the update rate is intolerably long, Compass offers you the option of
reducing the image size. Even a small reduction in size can speed things up
a lot. For example, cutting the size in half will increase the speed by four
times.

Second, there is a bug in the rotation routines that sometimes causes shifts
in the position of the cave relative to the bitmap. It only happens under
certain circumstance and I haven't' had time to track down the problem.
(Besides, I may just shift over to using OpenGL, which may be a better
solution.) In any case, be aware of the problem. You can usually avoid it if
you don't rotate the cave.

 Btw. the Image Position shows always only the indication

 "Ft." not "M.", but it really changes the values to Meter or

 Feet. 

Yes, thank you. It is a bug and I have just fixed it. There is a new version
of Compass on the Internet with the problem fixed.

Thanks again for your letter. I hope it helps you solve the problem.

Larry

  _____  

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of caveguenter
Sent: Monday, February 11, 2008 3:53 PM
Subject: [compass-users] Load Bitmap Adjust Bitmap and so on

Hi all together,
after a long time of rest I have again reached a point were I have to
cry for help.
The main problem/wish is to have a fixed topografic bitmap which fits
my cave, so no further zooming is necessary, adjusting manually the
position is ok, but I want to have a bitmap, which fits my cave, if I
use the scale of 100 Meter/cm, so that I don't have to rezoom it again
and again.

First: Whenever I lock a bitmap, the bitmap shrinks on the screen,
where is the switch to stop that shrinking? I thought, that locking
means just zooming the bitmap with the cave, _if_ I would do so. But
it shrinks immediately, just by setting the 'Lock image to Cave' check
mark. (Version 5.07.8.29.243 of the Plot Viewer)

Second: With my cave at a scale of 100 Meter/cm I tried to prepare a
topografic bitmap, which fits. But it does not. I think, that
some/thing/one changes the DPI or whatever. What are the real
conversion figures to adapt my bitmap?
My topografic bitmap has 4000*3000 pixel at 72ppi (28,346 pixel/cm).
4000 pixel equals 5 km in nature. (At least this is what I can see in
Photoshop) 
If I load it into Compass, the image size is shown (Adjust Bitmap
Background) as 4000*3000 pixel and also is shown that this equals 6699
(X) * 5024,3 (Y) Meters at a scale of 1.00. What has changed? And
locking does shrink my bitmap (not the polygon) by a certain factor.

Btw. the Image Position shows always only the indication "Ft." not
"M.", but it really changes the values to Meter or Feet. 

Thanks
Guenter

v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
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.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}

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Messsage #: 81
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 10:00:51 -0000
From: "caveguenter" 
Subject: Re: Load Bitmap Adjust Bitmap and so on

Hi Larry,
thank you for your long letter.

At least I know now that I did not overlook an important fact in 
using bitmaps.

 Hi Guenter,
 Thanks for your letter.
  after a long time of rest I have again reached a point
  were I have to cry for help.
 Sorry you are having trouble getting your bitmap to align with the 
plot.
 These tools are pretty complicated and take a bit of practice to 
get them to
 work right.
  The main problem/wish is to have a fixed topografic bitmap
  which fits my cave, so no further zooming is necessary,
  adjusting manually the position is ok, but I want to have a
  bitmap, which fits my cave, if I use the scale of 100
  Meter/cm, so that I don't have to rezoom it again and again.
 The scaling values that are contained in bitmap images are very 
seldom
 accurate. On the other hand, the cave survey is generally much more 
accurate
 since it is made up of dozens of hand measurements. For that 
reason, Compass
 ignores the scale values you find inside a bitmap. As a result, the 
process
 of matching a cave to a bitmap is done by re-scaling the image, not 
the
 cave. When you set the cave's scaling to 100 Meters/cm your are 
only setting
 it for the purpose of printing or display. It does not have an 
effect on
 matching the cave to a bitmap.

  First: Whenever I lock a bitmap, the bitmap shrinks on the
  screen, where is the switch to stop that shrinking?
 Again, Compass adjusts the bitmap to fit the cave, not the other 
way around.
 The bitmap shrinks because you have already zoomed the cave to a 
different
 size/scale. When you enable the "Lock-Image-To-Cave" option, the 
program
 realizes that you have changed the size of the cave and it resizes 
the
 bitmap to match.

Ok understood, This was my failure! 

  Second: With my cave at a scale of 100 Meter/cm I tried to
  prepare a topografic bitmap, which fits. But it does not. I
  think, that some/thing/one changes the DPI or whatever. What
  are the real conversion figures to adapt my bitmap? My
  topografic bitmap has 4000*3000 pixel at 72ppi (28,346 pixel/cm).
  4000 pixel equals 5 km in nature. (At least this is what I can 
see in
  Photoshop) 
 The values you see in Photoshop may not even be included in the 
bitmap and
 so Compass does not even attempt to use them.

I was just confused, because Compass showed me a height a a width 
in km of my bitmap. 

 Here are the steps you need to take to adjust a bitmap to match 
your cave.
 1. Load the cave data into the Compass Viewer. Don't worry about 
the cave
 scale factor at this point.
 2. Load the bitmap into the Viewer using the "File - Load Bitmap" 
option
 from the Menu Bar.
 3. Select the "File - Adjust Bitmap" option from the Menu Bar.
 4. Immediately turn on the "Lock-Image-To-Cave" option.
 5. Now use the "Move Bitmap" buttons to move the Bitmap so the 
location of
 the entrance matches the entrance on the plot of the cave.
 6. Now adjust the Scale so the bitmap is the proper size for the 
cave. This
 is hardest part. 

Shure, I fully aggree ;-). And that started my thinking that I 
might have overseen a major part. Because after each zooming step, I 
have to move the bitmap again. Because of this zooming, my cave 
entrie moves away from its proper point. I cant fix the cave entry of 
the cave to the cave entry on the bitmap. So every zooming action is 
accompanied by a moving action, over and over.

I usually try to find something on the bitmap that is of a
 known size. For example, if it a topographic map, you can usually 
find grid
 lines, a length of road, a lake or just any two land marks. If you 
measure
 their distance on the topographic map, you will know how long they 
should be
 in relation to the cave. Once you have identified an object of a 
known size,
 select the "Tools - Measure Distance/Angles" option in Compass. 
This will
 allow you to measure the size of the object on the bitmap. If the 
object
 measures too big or too small, adjust the Bitmap Scale in 
the "Adjust Bitmap
 Background" window. Keep re-measuring and adjusting until the error 
is very
 small.
 
 7. Final step is to adjust the rotation. If you have used the proper
 Declination on all your survey files, the cave should be aligned to 
True
 North. If the bitmap is also aligned to True North, then you won't 
have to
 do any rotating. However, if the cave does not have any 
declinations and the
 cave plot will be aligned to magnetic north and so you may have to 
rotate
 the bitmap. Likewise, many bitmap images are not aligned to True 
north. If
 that is the case, then you will also have to do some rotating.
 
 In all this process, you can use the regular Pan, Zoom and Rotate 
options in
 Compass to position the cave and the bitmap where you want. Since 
you have
 locked the cave and the bitmap together, changing the overall 
rotation, pan
 and zoom position won't affect the relative position of the cave 
and bitmap.
 
 8. Once the Bitmap and the Cave have been adjusted to match each 
other, you
 can now close all the "Tool" windows and navigate as would normally 
do in
 Compass. You can zoom, pan and rotate, and the cave and bitmap 
image will
 track each other. You can now set the overall Scale to any value 
you want
 (including 100 meters/cm) and the cave and bitmap will print at 
that scale.
 The value is set using the "Action - Scale, Magnification, 
Rotation" option
 from the menu bar.
 
 There are couple caveats with this process:
 
 First, very large bitmaps may be slow to update, particularly when 
you do
 any rotations. This is dependent on the kind of computer you have 
and the
 graphic card drivers. Your bitmap is 3000x4000, which is pretty 
large. If
 the update rate is intolerably long, Compass offers you the option 
of
 reducing the image size. Even a small reduction in size can speed 
things up
 a lot. For example, cutting the size in half will increase the 
speed by four
 times.

I am using a part out of an official topografic map, where I 
exactly now how long a point is and what coordinates are were. That 
is why I did not change it. It does not really remarkably slow down 
my PC, so at first I can live with it.

 Second, there is a bug in the rotation routines that sometimes 
causes shifts
 in the position of the cave relative to the bitmap. It only happens 
under
 certain circumstance and I haven't' had time to track down the 
problem.
 (Besides, I may just shift over to using OpenGL, which may be a 
better
 solution.) In any case, be aware of the problem. You can usually 
avoid it if
 you don't rotate the cave.
  Btw. the Image Position shows always only the indication
  "Ft." not "M.", but it really changes the values to Meter or
  Feet. 
 Yes, thank you. It is a bug and I have just fixed it. There is a 
new version
 of Compass on the Internet with the problem fixed.
 
 Thanks again for your letter. I hope it helps you solve the problem.
 Larry

Thanks again for your letter. I hope it helps you solve the problem.
Larry

Thank you for your help. 
I would like to report another small 'feature', which is not serious 
at all: If I edit a bitmap and want to save it with a name, 
say 'mycave', and I forget to explicitely write the suffix, the 
software creates a file with 0 bytes in it, called 'mycave'.

So next time you might see our cave with an underlying topographic 
map, saturated over and over by my drops of sweat.

Greetings 
Guenter
www.hoelloch.de

   _____  
 
 From: [email protected] [mailto:compass-
[email protected]]
 On Behalf Of caveguenter
 Sent: Monday, February 11, 2008 3:53 PM
 To: [email protected]
 Subject: [compass-users] Load Bitmap Adjust Bitmap and so on
 
 Hi all together,
 after a long time of rest I have again reached a point were I have 
to
 cry for help.
 The main problem/wish is to have a fixed topografic bitmap which 
fits
 my cave, so no further zooming is necessary, adjusting manually the
 position is ok, but I want to have a bitmap, which fits my cave, if 
I
 use the scale of 100 Meter/cm, so that I don't have to rezoom it 
again
 and again.
 
 First: Whenever I lock a bitmap, the bitmap shrinks on the screen,
 where is the switch to stop that shrinking? I thought, that locking
 means just zooming the bitmap with the cave, _if_ I would do so. But
 it shrinks immediately, just by setting the 'Lock image to Cave' 
check
 mark. (Version 5.07.8.29.243 of the Plot Viewer)
 
 Second: With my cave at a scale of 100 Meter/cm I tried to prepare a
 topografic bitmap, which fits. But it does not. I think, that
 some/thing/one changes the DPI or whatever. What are the real
 conversion figures to adapt my bitmap?
 My topografic bitmap has 4000*3000 pixel at 72ppi (28,346 pixel/cm).
 4000 pixel equals 5 km in nature. (At least this is what I can see 
in
 Photoshop) 
 If I load it into Compass, the image size is shown (Adjust Bitmap
 Background) as 4000*3000 pixel and also is shown that this equals 
6699
 (X) * 5024,3 (Y) Meters at a scale of 1.00. What has changed? And
 locking does shrink my bitmap (not the polygon) by a certain factor.
 
 Btw. the Image Position shows always only the indication "Ft." not
 "M.", but it really changes the values to Meter or Feet. 
 
 Thanks
 Guenter


Messsage #: 82
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 18:52:41 +0100
From: Roger Schuster 
Subject: different behavior of Cave Editor

Hi there,

after a long pause I am now back! I observed some odd behavior in 
Compass which is probably a bug.

If I fire up Cave Editor from the Windows Start Menu or from Project 
Manager with "Run Editor manually" it uses my user preferences for 
instrument order (Length, Inclination, Compass) and units (Meters and 
Degrees). But if I use "Create new survey file" in Project Manager and 
open the new file by clicking "Edit Cave Survey or File" the editor uses 
its factory settings Length, Compass, Inclination and Decimal Feet. This 
is confusing.

Regards

Roger
Roger Schuster  E-Mail      [email protected]
                 Web         http://www.r-schuster.de
Verschlsselte Mails erwnscht: / Encrypted Mails preferred:
Public GPG keys: http://www.r-schuster.de/crypto/


Messsage #: 83
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 20:14:10 -0600
From: "Larry Fish" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] different behavior of Cave Editor

Hi Roger,

Thanks for your email. The problem with Project Manager default units is
that the Units information for the file is contained in the survey file
itself, so I had over looked the possibility of setting the files default to
the default for Project Manager.

I have changed the Project Manager so that when it creates a new file, the
survey is set to the default units for the Project Manager. You also have
the option of changing them on the fly at the point where you enter the
survey name. There is a new version of the Compass on the inter net with the
changes.

There are a bunch of other units that apply to new surveys, but I didn't
think they were as important as the Meter/Feet issue. As a result, you will
have to go to Editor to set things like the shot order, etc.

Larry

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Roger Schuster
Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 11:53 AM
Subject: [compass-users] different behavior of Cave Editor

Hi there,

after a long pause I am now back! I observed some odd behavior in 
Compass which is probably a bug.

If I fire up Cave Editor from the Windows Start Menu or from Project 
Manager with "Run Editor manually" it uses my user preferences for 
instrument order (Length, Inclination, Compass) and units (Meters and 
Degrees). But if I use "Create new survey file" in Project Manager and 
open the new file by clicking "Edit Cave Survey or File" the editor uses 
its factory settings Length, Compass, Inclination and Decimal Feet. This 
is confusing.

Regards

Roger
Roger Schuster  E-Mail      [email protected]
                 Web         http://www.r-schuster.de
Verschlsselte Mails erwnscht: / Encrypted Mails preferred:
Public GPG keys: http://www.r-schuster.de/crypto/

Yahoo! Groups Links


Messsage #: 84
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 09:32:19 +0100
From: Roger Schuster 
Subject: Re: [compass-users] different behavior of Cave Editor

Hi Larry,

can't Project Manager access the configuration of Cave Editor and create 
the new survey file with the user settings from Editor? The .ini files 
of both are in the same directory.

Roger

Larry Fish schrieb:
 Hi Roger,
 
 Thanks for your email. The problem with Project Manager default units is
 that the Units information for the file is contained in the survey file
 itself, so I had over looked the possibility of setting the files default to
 the default for Project Manager.
 
 I have changed the Project Manager so that when it creates a new file, the
 survey is set to the default units for the Project Manager. You also have
 the option of changing them on the fly at the point where you enter the
 survey name. There is a new version of the Compass on the inter net with the
 changes.
 
 There are a bunch of other units that apply to new surveys, but I didn't
 think they were as important as the Meter/Feet issue. As a result, you will
 have to go to Editor to set things like the shot order, etc.
 
 Larry
 
 -----Original Message-----
 From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
 On Behalf Of Roger Schuster
 Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 11:53 AM
 To: [email protected]
 Subject: [compass-users] different behavior of Cave Editor
 
 Hi there,
 
 after a long pause I am now back! I observed some odd behavior in 
 Compass which is probably a bug.
 
 If I fire up Cave Editor from the Windows Start Menu or from Project 
 Manager with "Run Editor manually" it uses my user preferences for 
 instrument order (Length, Inclination, Compass) and units (Meters and 
 Degrees). But if I use "Create new survey file" in Project Manager and 
 open the new file by clicking "Edit Cave Survey or File" the editor uses 
 its factory settings Length, Compass, Inclination and Decimal Feet. This 
 is confusing.
 
 Regards
 
 Roger

Roger Schuster  E-Mail      [email protected]
                 Web         http://www.r-schuster.de
Verschlsselte Mails erwnscht: / Encrypted Mails preferred:
Public GPG keys: http://www.r-schuster.de/crypto/


Messsage #: 85
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 03:07:17 -0600
From: "Larry Fish" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] different behavior of Cave Editor

Roger,

 can't Project Manager access the configuration of Cave Editor and create 

 the new survey file with the user settings from Editor? The .ini files 

 of both are in the same directory.

The Project Manager can access the Editor's INI file, but the INI file
doesn't contain any default information other than whether we are using the
Meters or Feet. The Project Manager has its own INI file that also contains
Meters/Feet setting. These are usually used to control what the Editor or
the Project Manager displays for various statistics.

The real information is contained in the Survey files and it can be
different for each individual survey. As a result, every time you open a new
survey or load a new file, the units and the order of items can change. I
know of several surveys where there is a mixture of feet and meters. I even
know of surveys that contain mixtures of all kinds of units, including feet
and inches, Grads and Quads.

As a result, the default units are only meaningful for creating new surveys.
The changes I just made should allow you to have the correct units no matter
whether you create the new survey in the Editor or the Project manager.

I suppose I should have a default value for the order of the items and other
units such as degrees, so that new surveys would default to user-specified
format.  However, I'm a little concerned about confusing people. To setup a
default, it will have to be done separately from the setting the current
survey. I can easily imagine people getting confused and setting the default
when they meant to set the current survey and vise versa. I can also picture
trying to explain it all in an email when I get a complaint.

Larry.

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.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}


Messsage #: 86
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 11:09:15 +0100
From: Roger Schuster 
Subject: Re: [compass-users] different behavior of Cave Editor

Hi Larry,

Larry Fish schrieb:

 I suppose I should have a default value for the order of the items and 
 other units such as degrees, so that new surveys would default to 
 user-specified format.  However, I'm a little concerned about confusing 
 people. To setup a default, it will have to be done separately from the 
 setting the current survey. I can easily imagine people getting confused 
 and setting the default when they meant to set the current survey and 
 vise versa. I can also picture trying to explain it all in an email when 
 I get a complaint.

I got the point and understand your concerns. At the other hand I am not 
sure what is more confusing: Creating a new survey which makes use of 
the "factory settings" and which must be changed each time to the 
settings for the individual survey or creating a new survey which 
defaults to the user settings and must only be changed if the settings 
are different from your common style. In my opinion it would be best if 
Project Manager reads the user settings from CaveEd32.ini and uses them 
for the new survey. Putting a "global user settings" dialog in Project 
Manager would really be confusing.

What do the other cavers here think?

Roger
Roger Schuster  E-Mail      [email protected]
                 Web         http://www.r-schuster.de
Verschlsselte Mails erwnscht: / Encrypted Mails preferred:
Public GPG keys: http://www.r-schuster.de/crypto/


Messsage #: 87
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 05:56:08 -0600
From: "Larry Fish" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] different behavior of Cave Editor

Hi Roger,

After thinking about it for a while, I think I have a better idea of what
you want. As a result, I have made several changes to Compass that I think
will solve all your problems.

Since the defaults can change whenever you load a survey, I was concerned
that saving user settings at the wrong time could overwrite the survey
defaults. For that reason, I have separated the two functions by adding a
separate menu item that allows you to save the default settings without
affecting the current survey's settings. Likewise, you can change the
current survey's settings without affecting the default settings. The new
option can be found under the "Options | Default Settings (For New Surveys)"
item on the menu bar.

This is the now the only way you can set the default format. As a result,
the program will not remember your old settings from the previous version,
so you will need to set and save the Defaults the first time you use the new
version.

The Project Manager now takes its default setting from the Editor's settings
when it creates a new files. There is a new version of Compass up on the
Internet. Let me know if it does what you wanted it do.

Larry 


Messsage #: 88
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 16:17:24 +0100
From: Roger Schuster 
Subject: Re: [compass-users] different behavior of Cave Editor

Larry Fish schrieb:

Hi Larry,

 After thinking about it for a while, I think I have a better idea of 
 what you want. As a result, I have made several changes to Compass that 
 I think will solve all your problems.

You are great! This new release does exactly what I want. Thank you!

Roger
Roger Schuster  E-Mail      [email protected]
                 Web         http://www.r-schuster.de
Verschlsselte Mails erwnscht: / Encrypted Mails preferred:
Public GPG keys: http://www.r-schuster.de/crypto/


Messsage #: 89
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 12:16:26 -0000
From: "caveresource" 
Subject: Adding Fixed Stations

Hi everyone,

We ran across some weirdness last week during the WKU cave surveying 
course while trying to add fixed station(s) to a DAT file.  I was 
wondering if anyone else has experienced this?  The steps to 
reproduce the problem are outlined below.  Maybe we were doing 
something wrong?

1. Create a new empty project (MAK) file.

2. Import an existing DAT file (this even works with the Fulford data)

3. Right mouse click the DAT file and select "Edit Node"

4. Click the tab that says "Fixed Station"

5. Click in the station box and enter a station, tab over and enter 
the XY coordinates.

6. When happy with the coordinates, click OK. The dialog box closes...

7. Reopen the dialog box and your coordinates are gone!

8. If you enter your coordinates in the UTM Geographic Calculator 
within the "Fixed Station" tab of the "Edit Node" dialog, they will 
be passed to the fields described in Step 5.  They will also persist 
if the dialog is closed and reopened (Step 7).

So, there appears to be a workaround, but I can't imagine that this 
is a case of "works as designed"?

Cheers,

Aaron


Messsage #: 90
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 11:15:47 -0500
From: "John Lovaas" 
Subject: re: Adding Fixed Stations

Howdy Aaron-

I've had the same issue.  Sometimes I wasn't sure if it was the software or short term memory loss; "did I really enter those coords...?"  ;-)  So I haven't brought it up because I thought it might be my own buffonery.

I'm usually working the way you do- creating a new MAK file to link to an existing DAT file.    

I find myself occasionally having to enter the coordinates 2 or 3 times, on occasion, before they "stick".  Sometimes it "sticks" right away.  

My COMPASS version is 5.08.3.27.145

jl

Howdy Aaron-
 
I've had the same issue.  Sometimes I wasn't sure if it was the 
software or short term memory loss; "did I really enter those 
coords...?"  ;-)  So I haven't brought it up because I thought it 
might be my own buffonery.
 
I'm usually working the way you do- creating a new MAK file to link to an 
existing DAT file.    
 
I find myself occasionally having to enter the coordinates 2 or 3 times, on 
occasion, before they "stick".  Sometimes it "sticks" right 
away.  
 
My COMPASS version is 5.08.3.27.145
 
jl
 
 
    


Messsage #: 91
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 18:20:50 +0200
From: "Paul De Bie" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] Adding Fixed Stations

Hi, 

obvious question but nevertheless: did you save your changes to the MAK file?
I have no problems here. 

Paul De Bie
http://www.scavalon.be
http://scavalon.blogspot.com
http://pollekepik.blogspot.com

 -----Original Message-----
 From: [email protected] 
 [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of caveresource
 Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 2:16 PM
 To: [email protected]
 Subject: [compass-users] Adding Fixed Stations
 
 Hi everyone,
 
 We ran across some weirdness last week during the WKU cave 
 surveying course while trying to add fixed station(s) to a 
 DAT file.  I was wondering if anyone else has experienced 
 this?  The steps to reproduce the problem are outlined below. 
  Maybe we were doing something wrong?
 
 1. Create a new empty project (MAK) file.
 
 2. Import an existing DAT file (this even works with the Fulford data)
 
 3. Right mouse click the DAT file and select "Edit Node"
 
 4. Click the tab that says "Fixed Station"
 
 5. Click in the station box and enter a station, tab over and 
 enter the XY coordinates.
 
 6. When happy with the coordinates, click OK. The dialog box closes...
 
 7. Reopen the dialog box and your coordinates are gone!
 
 8. If you enter your coordinates in the UTM Geographic 
 Calculator within the "Fixed Station" tab of the "Edit Node" 
 dialog, they will be passed to the fields described in Step 
 5.  They will also persist if the dialog is closed and 
 reopened (Step 7).
 
 So, there appears to be a workaround, but I can't imagine 
 that this is a case of "works as designed"?
 
 Cheers,
 
 Aaron
 
 ------------------------------------
 
 Yahoo! Groups Links


Messsage #: 92
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 18:22:11 +0200
From: "Paul De Bie" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] re: Adding Fixed Stations

you can also edit the MAK file with notepad :-)

Paul De Bie
http://www.scavalon.be  
http://scavalon.blogspot.com  
http://pollekepik.blogspot.com  

  _____  

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of John Lovaas
Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 6:16 PM
Subject: [compass-users] re: Adding Fixed Stations

Howdy Aaron-
 
I've had the same issue.  Sometimes I wasn't sure if it was the software or short term memory loss;
"did I really enter those coords...?"  ;-)  So I haven't brought it up because I thought it might be
my own buffonery.
 
I'm usually working the way you do- creating a new MAK file to link to an existing DAT file.    
 
I find myself occasionally having to enter the coordinates 2 or 3 times, on occasion, before they
"stick".  Sometimes it "sticks" right away.  
 
My COMPASS version is 5.08.3.27.145
 
jl

you can also edit the MAK file with notepad 
:-)
 
Paul De Biehttp://www.scavalon.behttp://scavalon.blogspot.comhttp://pollekepik.blogspot.com
 
  
  From: [email protected] 
  [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of John 
  LovaasSent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 6:16 PMTo: 
  compass-usersSubject: [compass-users] re: Adding Fixed 
  Stations
  
  Howdy Aaron-
   
  I've had the same issue.  Sometimes I wasn't sure if it was the 
  software or short term memory loss; "did I really enter those 
  coords...?"  ;-)  So I haven't brought it up because I thought it 
  might be my own buffonery.
   
  I'm usually working the way you do- creating a new MAK file to link to an 
  existing DAT file.    
   
  I find myself occasionally having to enter the coordinates 2 or 3 times, 
  on occasion, before they "stick".  Sometimes it "sticks" right 
  away.  
   
  My COMPASS version is 5.08.3.27.145
   
  jl
   
   
       


Messsage #: 93
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 17:50:43 -0000
From: "Rick" 
Subject: Re: Adding Fixed Stations

Paul beat me to it.  Save your MAK file right away.
 
 Hi everyone,
 
 We ran across some weirdness last week during the WKU cave surveying 
 course while trying to add fixed station(s) to a DAT file.  I was 
 wondering if anyone else has experienced this?  The steps to 
 reproduce the problem are outlined below.  Maybe we were doing 
 something wrong?
 
 1. Create a new empty project (MAK) file.
 
 2. Import an existing DAT file (this even works with the Fulford data)
 
 3. Right mouse click the DAT file and select "Edit Node"
 
 4. Click the tab that says "Fixed Station"
 
 5. Click in the station box and enter a station, tab over and enter 
 the XY coordinates.
 
 6. When happy with the coordinates, click OK. The dialog box closes...
 
 7. Reopen the dialog box and your coordinates are gone!
 
 8. If you enter your coordinates in the UTM Geographic Calculator 
 within the "Fixed Station" tab of the "Edit Node" dialog, they will 
 be passed to the fields described in Step 5.  They will also persist 
 if the dialog is closed and reopened (Step 7).
 
 So, there appears to be a workaround, but I can't imagine that this 
 is a case of "works as designed"?
 
 Cheers,
 
 Aaron


Messsage #: 94
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 12:54:44 -0500
From: "Aaron Addison" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] Re: Adding Fixed Stations

I'm not sure that's the problem (however I did save it).  The problem
occurs even if you immediately go back in to the dialog box after
entering the data.  At that point whatever you would be "saving" would
be blank anyway.

Aaron

________________________________________
Aaron Addison
University GIS Coordinator 
Washington University in St. Louis
Campus Box 1169
One Brookings Drive
St. Louis, MO 63130-4899
314 935 6198 - office
[email protected]
________________________________________
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Rick
Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 12:51 PM
Subject: [compass-users] Re: Adding Fixed Stations

Paul beat me to it. Save your MAK file right away.

wrote:
 
 Hi everyone,
 
 We ran across some weirdness last week during the WKU cave surveying 
 course while trying to add fixed station(s) to a DAT file. I was 
 wondering if anyone else has experienced this? The steps to 
 reproduce the problem are outlined below. Maybe we were doing 
 something wrong?
 
 1. Create a new empty project (MAK) file.
 
 2. Import an existing DAT file (this even works with the Fulford data)
 
 3. Right mouse click the DAT file and select "Edit Node"
 
 4. Click the tab that says "Fixed Station"
 
 5. Click in the station box and enter a station, tab over and enter 
 the XY coordinates.
 
 6. When happy with the coordinates, click OK. The dialog box closes...
 
 7. Reopen the dialog box and your coordinates are gone!
 
 8. If you enter your coordinates in the UTM Geographic Calculator 
 within the "Fixed Station" tab of the "Edit Node" dialog, they will 
 be passed to the fields described in Step 5. They will also persist 
 if the dialog is closed and reopened (Step 7).
 
 So, there appears to be a workaround, but I can't imagine that this 
 is a case of "works as designed"?
 
 Cheers,
 
 Aaron


Messsage #: 95
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 18:23:41 -0000
From: "Rick" 
Subject: Re: Adding Fixed Stations

I just went through the exact steps as you outlined them.  The node
info doesn't disappear on me, even without saving the MAK file.  

Do you have the latest version of Compass?

wrote:
 
 I'm not sure that's the problem (however I did save it).  The problem
 occurs even if you immediately go back in to the dialog box after
 entering the data.  At that point whatever you would be "saving" would
 be blank anyway.
 
 Aaron
 
 ________________________________________
 Aaron Addison
 University GIS Coordinator 
 Washington University in St. Louis
 Campus Box 1169
 One Brookings Drive
 St. Louis, MO 63130-4899
 314 935 6198 - office
 [email protected]
 ________________________________________
 From: [email protected]
 [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Rick
 Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 12:51 PM
 To: [email protected]
 Subject: [compass-users] Re: Adding Fixed Stations
 
 Paul beat me to it. Save your MAK file right away.
 
 --- In [email protected], "caveresource" 
 wrote:
  
  Hi everyone,
  
  We ran across some weirdness last week during the WKU cave surveying 
  course while trying to add fixed station(s) to a DAT file. I was 
  wondering if anyone else has experienced this? The steps to 
  reproduce the problem are outlined below. Maybe we were doing 
  something wrong?
  
  1. Create a new empty project (MAK) file.
  
  2. Import an existing DAT file (this even works with the Fulford data)
  
  3. Right mouse click the DAT file and select "Edit Node"
  
  4. Click the tab that says "Fixed Station"
  
  5. Click in the station box and enter a station, tab over and enter 
  the XY coordinates.
  
  6. When happy with the coordinates, click OK. The dialog box closes...
  
  7. Reopen the dialog box and your coordinates are gone!
  
  8. If you enter your coordinates in the UTM Geographic Calculator 
  within the "Fixed Station" tab of the "Edit Node" dialog, they will 
  be passed to the fields described in Step 5. They will also persist 
  if the dialog is closed and reopened (Step 7).
  
  So, there appears to be a workaround, but I can't imagine that this 
  is a case of "works as designed"?
  
  Cheers,
  
  Aaron


Messsage #: 96
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 18:38:32 -0000
From: "ericmweaver2003" 
Subject: Re: Adding Fixed Stations

wrote:
 
 I'm not sure that's the problem (however I did save it).  The problem
 occurs even if you immediately go back in to the dialog box after
 entering the data.  At that point whatever you would be "saving" would
 be blank anyway.
 
 Aaron
 
 ________________________________________
 Aaron Addison
 University GIS Coordinator 
 Washington University in St. Louis
 Campus Box 1169
 One Brookings Drive
 St. Louis, MO 63130-4899
 314 935 6198 - office
 [email protected]
 ________________________________________
 From: [email protected]
 [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Rick
 Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 12:51 PM
 To: [email protected]
 Subject: [compass-users] Re: Adding Fixed Stations
 
 Paul beat me to it. Save your MAK file right away.
 
 --- In [email protected], "caveresource" 
 wrote:
  
  Hi everyone,
  
  We ran across some weirdness last week during the WKU cave surveying 
  course while trying to add fixed station(s) to a DAT file. I was 
  wondering if anyone else has experienced this? The steps to 
  reproduce the problem are outlined below. Maybe we were doing 
  something wrong?
  
  1. Create a new empty project (MAK) file.
  
  2. Import an existing DAT file (this even works with the Fulford data)
  
  3. Right mouse click the DAT file and select "Edit Node"
  
  4. Click the tab that says "Fixed Station"
  
  5. Click in the station box and enter a station, tab over and enter 
  the XY coordinates.
  
  6. When happy with the coordinates, click OK. The dialog box closes...
  
  7. Reopen the dialog box and your coordinates are gone!
  
  8. If you enter your coordinates in the UTM Geographic Calculator 
  within the "Fixed Station" tab of the "Edit Node" dialog, they will 
  be passed to the fields described in Step 5. They will also persist 
  if the dialog is closed and reopened (Step 7).
  
  So, there appears to be a workaround, but I can't imagine that this 
  is a case of "works as designed"?
  
  Cheers,
  
  Aaron

I have had the same problem in the past and have used the same
workaround. I didn't think it was an issue about saving a MAK file,
realistically there isn't a spot to save it before the data would be
erased. However, I just tried to re-create the problem and wasn't able
to do so. I am using Compass version 5.06.12.28.132 ...it looks like
Rick just had the same experience.


Messsage #: 97
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 16:08:33 -0500
From: "Aaron Addison" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] Re: Adding Fixed Stations

All of my testing was done on 5.07.6.3.136 running on XP Pro SP2 and
current with all MS updates since SP2.  Other uses experienced same
running on Vista.

Cheers,

Aaron

________________________________

Aaron Addison

University GIS Coordinator 

Washington University in St. Louis

Campus Box 1169

One Brookings Drive

St. Louis, MO 63130-4899

314 935 6198 - office

[email protected]

________________________________

From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of ericmweaver2003
Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 1:39 PM
Subject: [compass-users] Re: Adding Fixed Stations

 , "Aaron Addison"

wrote:
 
 I'm not sure that's the problem (however I did save it). The problem
 occurs even if you immediately go back in to the dialog box after
 entering the data. At that point whatever you would be "saving" would
 be blank anyway.
 
 Aaron
 
 ________________________________________
 Aaron Addison
 University GIS Coordinator 
 Washington University in St. Louis
 Campus Box 1169
 One Brookings Drive
 St. Louis, MO 63130-4899
 314 935 6198 - office
 [email protected]
 ________________________________________
 From: [email protected]
 
 [mailto:[email protected]
 ] On Behalf Of Rick
 Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 12:51 PM
 To: [email protected]
 
 Subject: [compass-users] Re: Adding Fixed Stations
 
 Paul beat me to it. Save your MAK file right away.
 
 --- In [email protected]
 , "caveresource" 
 wrote:
  
  Hi everyone,
  
  We ran across some weirdness last week during the WKU cave surveying

  course while trying to add fixed station(s) to a DAT file. I was 
  wondering if anyone else has experienced this? The steps to 
  reproduce the problem are outlined below. Maybe we were doing 
  something wrong?
  
  1. Create a new empty project (MAK) file.
  
  2. Import an existing DAT file (this even works with the Fulford
data)
  
  3. Right mouse click the DAT file and select "Edit Node"
  
  4. Click the tab that says "Fixed Station"
  
  5. Click in the station box and enter a station, tab over and enter 
  the XY coordinates.
  
  6. When happy with the coordinates, click OK. The dialog box
closes...
  
  7. Reopen the dialog box and your coordinates are gone!
  
  8. If you enter your coordinates in the UTM Geographic Calculator 
  within the "Fixed Station" tab of the "Edit Node" dialog, they will 
  be passed to the fields described in Step 5. They will also persist 
  if the dialog is closed and reopened (Step 7).
  
  So, there appears to be a workaround, but I can't imagine that this 
  is a case of "works as designed"?
  
  Cheers,
  
  Aaron

I have had the same problem in the past and have used the same
workaround. I didn't think it was an issue about saving a MAK file,
realistically there isn't a spot to save it before the data would be
erased. However, I just tried to re-create the problem and wasn't able
to do so. I am using Compass version 5.06.12.28.132 ...it looks like
Rick just had the same experience.

v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}

st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }


Messsage #: 98
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 11:43:41 -0500
From: "John Lovaas" 
Subject: re: XY coord entry gremlins

1d. Re: Adding Fixed Stations
    Posted by: "Rick" [email protected] mt_vertcaver
    Date: Wed Jun 25, 2008 10:50 am ((PDT))

Paul beat me to it.  Save your MAK file right away.


Messsage #: 99
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 02:46:20 -0600
From: "Larry Fish" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] re: XY coord entry gremlins

Hi Everybody,

Sorry it has taken me a while to respond to this topic. My motherboard died
two days ago and it has taken me several days to get to the point where I
could even look at my emails. I still have a bit more work to do before I
can focus on software. I should have a chance over the weekend to look at
the problems you all have been describing and see if I can make the program
work better.

Thanks to everyone for your comments and input.

Larry

  _____  

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of John Lovaas
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 10:44 AM
Subject: [compass-users] re: XY coord entry gremlins

1d. Re: Adding Fixed Stations
    Posted by: "Rick" [email protected] mt_vertcaver
    Date: Wed Jun 25, 2008 10:50 am ((PDT))

Paul beat me to it.  Save your MAK file right away.


Messsage #: 100
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 04:02:26 -0600
From: "Larry Fish" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] Adding Fixed Stations

Hi Aaron,

I think I have an idea about what is causing the problem. When you said that
you entered the "X,Y" coordinate, I realized that you might be entering only
two numbers. If you do enter two numbers, the program will completely ignore
and discard the coordinates. This is because you can enter either a "Link
Station," (which has no coordinates) or a "Fixed Station," (which does have
coordinates). For this reason, the program has to differentiate a Link
Station from a Fixed Station by looking at whether it has coordinates or
not.

At the time I wrote the code, I assumed that if you didn't have all three
coordinates that it must be an error and so the program ignores the
coordinate data and assumes that it is a Link Station. I can see that there
might be some instances where it is easier to just enter one or two
coordinates, so I changed the program. It now requires that you enter at
least one coordinate. If the remaining two are left blank, the program sets
their value to zero.

The new version is posted on the internet at the Compass site. Let me know
if you think that this is the source of the problem and if my changes help.

Larry

________________________________________
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of caveresource
Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 6:16 AM
Subject: [compass-users] Adding Fixed Stations

Hi everyone,

We ran across some weirdness last week during the WKU cave surveying 
course while trying to add fixed station(s) to a DAT file. I was 
wondering if anyone else has experienced this? The steps to 
reproduce the problem are outlined below. Maybe we were doing 
something wrong?

1. Create a new empty project (MAK) file.

2. Import an existing DAT file (this even works with the Fulford data)

3. Right mouse click the DAT file and select "Edit Node"

4. Click the tab that says "Fixed Station"

5. Click in the station box and enter a station, tab over and enter 
the XY coordinates.

6. When happy with the coordinates, click OK. The dialog box closes...

7. Reopen the dialog box and your coordinates are gone!

8. If you enter your coordinates in the UTM Geographic Calculator 
within the "Fixed Station" tab of the "Edit Node" dialog, they will 
be passed to the fields described in Step 5. They will also persist 
if the dialog is closed and reopened (Step 7).

So, there appears to be a workaround, but I can't imagine that this 
is a case of "works as designed"?

Cheers,

Aaron


Messsage #: 101
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 06:42:06 -0700 (PDT)
From: Durga Prasad 
Subject: Does compass index allow accented chars

Hi ,

I try to insert below names which has accented characters like , o ,  in my compass index.my question is Does Compass index accept accented characters(non English words/not available chars on keyboard). it would be appreciated can any one answered for this.

Names:

1.Wood Tob-Coburn School

2.Tri-Vision International Ltd./Lte

3.Votorantim Participaoes S.A.

4.Compaa Minera Autln, S. A. de C. V.

Thanks,
dganji

Hi ,I try to insert below names which has accented characters like , o ,  in my compass index.my question is Does Compass index accept accented characters(non English words/not available chars on keyboard). it would be appreciated can any one answered for this.Names:1.Wood Tob-Coburn School2.Tri-Vision International Ltd./Lte3.Votorantim Participaoes S.A.4.Compaa Minera Autln, S. A. de C. V.Thanks,dganji


Messsage #: 102
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 15:07:57 -0600
From: "Larry Fish" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] Does compass index allow accented chars

Dganji,

Thanks for your letter. Compass does accept accented characters if your
keyboard will generate them. You just place the cursor in the appropriate
field and then hit the key you want. The characters can be entered into the
Station-Name box, Survey-Name box or any of the other text fields.

If your keyboard doesn't have the characters you want, one way to generate
those characters is to use the "Alt-codes". "Alt" codes work by holding down
the "Alt" key and then entering a three digit decimal number into the
"Numeric Keypad" on your computer. When you release the "Alt" key, the
character that corresponds to the numeric value will be entered at the
cursor. This only works when you enter the numeric value into the numeric
keypad. In addition, "Num Lock" must be enabled. As an example, if I enter
"Alt", then 0233 and finally release the "Alt" key, the accented "e"
character is entered: "". The zero at the beginning of the number is
required and the 0233 is the ASCII value for the character. (For reasons
that I don't understand, you can also get "" character by enter Alt-130.)
This web site will give you more information about the Alt-Keycodes:

http://tlt.its.psu.edu/suggestions/international/accents/codealt.html

If you don't have a Numeric Keypad, Windows also has an "International"
mode. In International Mode, special short-cuts are added that make it
easier to enter certain characters. For example, if the international
keyboard option is enabled, pressing "RightAlt+?" will enter an
"Up-side-down-question-mark" "". There is detailed information about
enabling and using the "International Keyboard" option here:

http://tlt.its.psu.edu/suggestions/international/accents/codeint.html

If you have any other questions, feel free to write.

Larry

  _____  

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Durga Prasad
Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 7:42 AM
Subject: [compass-users] Does compass index allow accented chars

Hi ,

I try to insert below names which has accented characters like , o ,  in
my compass index.my question is Does Compass index accept accented
characters(non English words/not available chars on keyboard). it would be
appreciated can any one answered for this.

Names:

1.Wood Tob-Coburn School

2.Tri-Vision International Ltd./Lte

3.Votorantim Participaoes S.A.

4.Compaa Minera Autln, S. A. de C. V.

Thanks,
dganji

v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}

st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }


Messsage #: 103
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 17:27:19 -0400
From: Paul Jorgenson KE7HR 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] Does compass index allow accented chars

If you could generate the text like the example at the bottom of the first email message, then cutting and pasting from a text file would possibly be another valid method of inserting the correct characters.  Type them once and then cut and paste where needed.

Paul Jorgenson
KE7HR (remotely)

 Dganji,
 
 Thanks for your letter. Compass does accept accented characters if your
 keyboard will generate them. You just place the cursor in the appropriate
 field and then hit the key you want. The characters can be entered into the
 Station-Name box, Survey-Name box or any of the other text fields.
 
 If your keyboard doesn't have the characters you want, one way to generate
 those characters is to use the "Alt-codes". "Alt" codes work by holding down
 the "Alt" key and then entering a three digit decimal number into the
 "Numeric Keypad" on your computer. When you release the "Alt" key, the
 character that corresponds to the numeric value will be entered at the
 cursor. This only works when you enter the numeric value into the numeric
 keypad. In addition, "Num Lock" must be enabled. As an example, if I enter
 "Alt", then 0233 and finally release the "Alt" key, the accented "e"
 character is entered: "Ac". The zero at the beginning of the number is
 required and the 0233 is the ASCII value for the character. (For reasons
 that I don't understand, you can also get "Ac" character by enter Alt-130.)
 This web site will give you more information about the Alt-Keycodes:
 
 http://tlt.its.psu.edu/suggestions/international/accents/codealt.html
 
 If you don't have a Numeric Keypad, Windows also has an "International"
 mode. In International Mode, special short-cuts are added that make it
 easier to enter certain characters. For example, if the international
 keyboard option is enabled, pressing "RightAlt+?" will enter an
 "Up-side-down-question-mark" "A". There is detailed information about
 enabling and using the "International Keyboard" option here:
 
 http://tlt.its.psu.edu/suggestions/international/accents/codeint.html
 
 If you have any other questions, feel free to write.
 
 Larry
 
   _____  
 
 From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
 On Behalf Of Durga Prasad
 Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 7:42 AM
 To: [email protected]
 Subject: [compass-users] Does compass index allow accented chars
 
 Hi ,
 
 I try to insert below names which has accented characters like Ac, A , A in
 my compass index.my question is Does Compass index accept accented
 characters(non English words/not available chars on keyboard). it would be
 appreciated can any one answered for this.
 
 Names:
 
 1.Wood TobAc-Coburn School
 
 2.Tri-Vision International Ltd./LtAce
 
 3.Votorantim ParticipaAAes S.A.
 
 4.CompaAA-a Minera AutlAn, S. A. de C. V.
 
 Thanks,
 dganji


Messsage #: 104
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 04:54:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: Durga Prasad 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] Does compass index allow accented chars

Hi,

I think you guys did not understand my question.
I want to store/retrieve data which includes accented(like  ) characters in/from index using compass API.
So my question is does compass API support this feature.

Thx,
Durga 
From: Paul Jorgenson KE7HR 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] Does compass index allow accented chars
Date: Tuesday, July 8, 2008, 2:27 PM
    
            If you could generate the text like the example at the bottom of the first email message, then cutting and pasting from a text file would possibly be another valid method of inserting the correct characters.  Type them once and then cut and paste where needed.

Paul Jorgenson

KE7HR (remotely)

 Dganji,

 Thanks for your letter. Compass does accept accented characters if your

 keyboard will generate them. You just place the cursor in the appropriate

 field and then hit the key you want. The characters can be entered into the

 Station-Name box, Survey-Name box or any of the other text fields.

 If your keyboard doesn't have the characters you want, one way to generate

 those characters is to use the "Alt-codes". "Alt" codes work by holding down

 the "Alt" key and then entering a three digit decimal number into the

 "Numeric Keypad" on your computer. When you release the "Alt" key, the

 character that corresponds to the numeric value will be entered at the

 cursor. This only works when you enter the numeric value into the numeric

 keypad. In addition, "Num Lock" must be enabled. As an example, if I enter

 "Alt", then 0233 and finally release the "Alt" key, the accented "e"

 character is entered: "". The zero at the beginning of the number is

 required and the 0233 is the ASCII value for the character. (For reasons

 that I don't understand, you can also get "" character by enter Alt-130.)

 This web site will give you more information about the Alt-Keycodes:

 http://tlt.its. psu.edu/suggesti ons/internationa l/accents/ codealt.html

 If you don't have a Numeric Keypad, Windows also has an "International"

 mode. In International Mode, special short-cuts are added that make it

 easier to enter certain characters. For example, if the international

 keyboard option is enabled, pressing "RightAlt+?" will enter an

 "Up-side-down- question- mark" "". There is detailed information about

 enabling and using the "International Keyboard" option here:

 http://tlt.its. psu.edu/suggesti ons/internationa l/accents/ codeint.html

 If you have any other questions, feel free to write.

 Larry

   _____  

 From: [email protected] yahoogroups. com [mailto:[email protected] yahoogroups. com]

 On Behalf Of Durga Prasad

 Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 7:42 AM

 To: [email protected] yahoogroups. com

 Subject: [compass-users] Does compass index allow accented chars

 Hi ,

 I try to insert below names which has accented characters like , o ,  in

 my compass index.my question is Does Compass index accept accented

 characters(non English words/not available chars on keyboard). it would be

 appreciated can any one answered for this.

 Names:

 1.Wood Tob-Coburn School

 2.Tri-Vision International Ltd./Lte

 3.Votorantim Participaoes S.A.

 4.Compaa Minera Autln, S. A. de C. V.

 Thanks,

 dganji

Hi,I think you guys did not understand my question.I want to store/retrieve  data which includes accented(like  ) characters  in/from index using  compass API.So my question is does compass API support this feature.Thx,Durga --- On Tue, 7/8/08, Paul Jorgenson KE7HR <[email protected]> wrote:From: Paul Jorgenson KE7HR <[email protected]>Subject: RE: [compass-users] Does compass index allow accented charsTo: [email protected]: "Larry Fish" <[email protected]>Date: Tuesday, July 8, 2008, 2:27 PM
    
            If you could generate the text like the example at the bottom of the first email message, then cutting and pasting from a text file would possibly be another valid method of inserting the correct characters.  Type them once and then cut and paste where needed.

Paul Jorgenson
KE7HR (remotely)

ish%40nyx.net"[email protected]> wrote: 
> Dganji,
> 
> Thanks for your letter. Compass does accept accented characters if your
> keyboard will generate them. You just place the cursor in the appropriate
> field and then hit the key you want. The characters can be entered into the
> Station-Name box, Survey-Name box or any of the other text fields.
> 
> If your keyboard doesn't have the characters you want, one way to generate
> those characters is to use the "Alt-codes". "Alt" codes work by holding down
> the "Alt" key and then entering a three digit decimal number into the
> "Numeric Keypad" on your computer. When you release the "Alt" key, the
> character that corresponds to the numeric value will be entered at the
> cursor. This only works when you enter the numeric value into the numeric
> keypad. In addition, "Num Lock" must be enabled. As an example, if I enter
> "Alt", then 0233 and finally release the "Alt" key, the accented "e"
> character is entered: "". The zero at the beginning of the number is
> required and the 0233 is the ASCII value for the character. (For reasons
> that I don't understand, you can also get "" character by enter Alt-130.)
> This web site will give you more information about the Alt-Keycodes:
> 
> http://tlt.its. psu.edu/suggesti ons/internationa l/accents/ codealt.html
> 
> If you don't have a Numeric Keypad, Windows also has an "International"
> mode. In International Mode, special short-cuts are added that make it
> easier to enter certain characters. For example, if the international
> keyboard option is enabled, pressing "RightAlt+?" will enter an
> "Up-side-down- question- mark" "". There is detailed information about
> enabling and using the "International Keyboard" option here:
> 
> http://tlt.its. psu.edu/suggesti ons/internationa l/accents/ codeint.html
> 
> If you have any other questions, feel free to write.
> 
> Larry
> 
>   _____  
> 
> From: [email protected] yahoogroups. com [mailto:[email protected] yahoogroups. com]
> On Behalf Of Durga Prasad
> Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 7:42 AM
> To: [email protected] yahoogroups. com
> Subject: [compass-users] Does compass index allow accented chars
> 
> 
> Hi ,
> 
> I try to insert below names which has accented characters like , o ,  in
> my compass index.my question is Does Compass index accept accented
> characters(non English words/not available chars on keyboard). it would be
> appreciated can any one answered for this.
> 
> 
> Names:
> 
> 1.Wood Tob-Coburn School
> 
> 2.Tri-Vision International Ltd./Lte
> 
> 3.Votorantim Participaoes S.A.
> 
> 4.Compaa Minera Autln, S. A. de C. V.
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> dganji


Messsage #: 105
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 19:57:01 +0200
From: "Paul De Bie" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] Does compass index allow accented chars

Well your question was very vague then. 

Paul De Bie
http://www.scavalon.be  
http://scavalon.blogspot.com  
http://pollekepik.blogspot.com  

  _____  

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Durga Prasad
Sent: Monday, July 14, 2008 1:55 PM
Subject: RE: [compass-users] Does compass index allow accented chars

Hi,

I think you guys did not understand my question.
I want to store/retrieve  data which includes accented(like  ) characters  in/from index using
compass API.
So my question is does compass API support this feature.

Thx,
Durga 

From: Paul Jorgenson KE7HR 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] Does compass index allow accented chars
Date: Tuesday, July 8, 2008, 2:27 PM

If you could generate the text like the example at the bottom of the first email message, then
cutting and pasting from a text file would possibly be another valid method of inserting the correct
characters. Type them once and then cut and paste where needed.

Paul Jorgenson
KE7HR (remotely)

 Dganji,
 
 Thanks for your letter. Compass does accept accented characters if your
 keyboard will generate them. You just place the cursor in the appropriate
 field and then hit the key you want. The characters can be entered into the
 Station-Name box, Survey-Name box or any of the other text fields.
 
 If your keyboard doesn't have the characters you want, one way to generate
 those characters is to use the "Alt-codes". "Alt" codes work by holding down
 the "Alt" key and then entering a three digit decimal number into the
 "Numeric Keypad" on your computer. When you release the "Alt" key, the
 character that corresponds to the numeric value will be entered at the
 cursor. This only works when you enter the numeric value into the numeric
 keypad. In addition, "Num Lock" must be enabled. As an example, if I enter
 "Alt", then 0233 and finally release the "Alt" key, the accented "e"
 character is entered: "". The zero at the beginning of the number is
 required and the 0233 is the ASCII value for the character. (For reasons
 that I don't understand, you can also get "" character by enter Alt-130.)
 This web site will give you more information about the Alt-Keycodes:
 
 http://tlt.its. psu.edu/suggesti
 ons/internationa l/accents/
codealt.html
 
 If you don't have a Numeric Keypad, Windows also has an "International"
 mode. In International Mode, special short-cuts are added that make it
 easier to enter certain characters. For example, if the international
 keyboard option is enabled, pressing "RightAlt+?" will enter an
 "Up-side-down- question- mark" "". There is detailed information about
 enabling and using the "International Keyboard" option here:
 
 http://tlt.its. psu.edu/suggesti
 ons/internationa l/accents/
codeint.html
 
 If you have any other questions, feel free to write.
 
 Larry
 
 _____ 
 
 From: [email protected] yahoogroups. com 
[mailto:[email protected] yahoogroups. com  ]
 On Behalf Of Durga Prasad
 Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 7:42 AM
 To: [email protected] yahoogroups. com  
 Subject: [compass-users] Does compass index allow accented chars
 
 Hi ,
 
 I try to insert below names which has accented characters like , o ,  in
 my compass index.my question is Does Compass index accept accented
 characters(non English words/not available chars on keyboard). it would be
 appreciated can any one answered for this.
 
 Names:
 
 1.Wood Tob-Coburn School
 
 2.Tri-Vision International Ltd./Lte
 
 3.Votorantim Participaoes S.A.
 
 4.Compaa Minera Autln, S. A. de C. V.
 
 Thanks,
 dganji

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}

Well your question was very vague then. 

 
Paul De Biehttp://www.scavalon.behttp://scavalon.blogspot.comhttp://pollekepik.blogspot.com
 
  
  From: [email protected] 
  [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Durga 
  PrasadSent: Monday, July 14, 2008 1:55 PMTo: 
  [email protected]: RE: [compass-users] Does 
  compass index allow accented chars
    
      Hi,I think you guys did not understand my 
        question.I want to store/retrieve  data which includes 
        accented(like  ) characters  in/from index using  compass 
        API.So my question is does compass API support this 
        feature.Thx,Durga --- On Tue, 7/8/08, Paul Jorgenson 
        KE7HR <[email protected]> wrote:
        From: 
          Paul Jorgenson KE7HR <[email protected]>Subject: RE: 
          [compass-users] Does compass index allow accented charsTo: 
          [email protected]: "Larry Fish" 
          <[email protected]>Date: Tuesday, July 8, 2008, 2:27 PM          
          If you could generate the text like the example at the bottom of 
          the first email message, then cutting and pasting from a text file 
          would possibly be another valid method of inserting the correct 
          characters. Type them once and then cut and paste where 
          needed.--Paul JorgensonKE7HR 
          (remotely)------ Larry Fish <[email protected]> wrote: > Dganji,> 
          > Thanks for your letter. Compass does accept accented 
          characters if your> keyboard will generate them. You just place 
          the cursor in the appropriate> field and then hit the key you 
          want. The characters can be entered into the> Station-Name box, 
          Survey-Name box or any of the other text fields.> > If 
          your keyboard doesn't have the characters you want, one way to 
          generate> those characters is to use the "Alt-codes". "Alt" 
          codes work by holding down> the "Alt" key and then entering a 
          three digit decimal number into the> "Numeric Keypad" on your 
          computer. When you release the "Alt" key, the> character that 
          corresponds to the numeric value will be entered at the> 
          cursor. This only works when you enter the numeric value into the 
          numeric> keypad. In addition, "Num Lock" must be enabled. As an 
          example, if I enter> "Alt", then 0233 and finally release the 
          "Alt" key, the accented "e"> character is entered: "". The 
          zero at the beginning of the number is> required and the 0233 
          is the ASCII value for the character. (For reasons> that I 
          don't understand, you can also get "" character by enter 
          Alt-130.)> This web site will give you more information about 
          the Alt-Keycodes:> > http://tlt.its. psu.edu/suggesti 
          ons/internationa l/accents/ codealt.html> > If you 
          don't have a Numeric Keypad, Windows also has an 
          "International"> mode. In International Mode, special 
          short-cuts are added that make it> easier to enter certain 
          characters. For example, if the international> keyboard option 
          is enabled, pressing "RightAlt+?" will enter an> "Up-side-down- 
          question- mark" "". There is detailed information about> 
          enabling and using the "International Keyboard" option here:> 
          > http://tlt.its. psu.edu/suggesti 
          ons/internationa l/accents/ codeint.html> > If you 
          have any other questions, feel free to write.> > 
          Larry> > _____ > > From: [email protected] yahoogroups. com [mailto:[email protected] yahoogroups. com]> On Behalf Of 
          Durga Prasad> Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 7:42 AM> To: 
          [email protected] yahoogroups. com> Subject: 
          [compass-users] Does compass index allow accented chars> 
          > > Hi ,> > I try to insert below names 
          which has accented characters like , o ,  in> my compass 
          index.my question is Does Compass index accept accented> 
          characters(non English words/not available chars on keyboard). it 
          would be> appreciated can any one answered for this.> 
          > > Names:> > 1.Wood Tob-Coburn 
          School> > 2.Tri-Vision International Ltd./Lte> 
          > 3.Votorantim Participaoes S.A.> > 4.Compaa 
          Minera Autln, S. A. de C. V.> > > 
          Thanks,> 
  dganji 


Messsage #: 106
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 14:16:29 -0400
From: Christian Chenier 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] Does compass index allow accented chars

Are you sure you're on the right email list? Your 
questions sounds like you're talking about 
something else. A Google search for Compass API 
gets me some programming framework 
(http://www.compass-project.org/), which is far 
from what this group is all about (It's about the 
Compass cave survey software; http://www.fountainware.com/compass/ ).

Chris

At 07:54 AM 14/07/2008, you wrote:

Hi,

I think you guys did not understand my question.
I want to store/retrieve  data which includes 
accented(like  ) characters  in/from index using  compass API.
So my question is does compass API support this feature.

Thx,
Durga
--- On Tue, 7/8/08, Paul Jorgenson KE7HR  wrote:
From: Paul Jorgenson KE7HR 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] Does compass index allow accented chars
To: [email protected]
Cc: "Larry Fish" 
Date: Tuesday, July 8, 2008, 2:27 PM

If you could generate the text like the example 
at the bottom of the first email message, then 
cutting and pasting from a text file would 
possibly be another valid method of inserting 
the correct characters. Type them once and then cut and paste where needed.

--
Paul Jorgenson
KE7HR (remotely)
--

---- Larry Fish  wrote:
  Dganji,
 
  Thanks for your letter. Compass does accept accented characters if your
  keyboard will generate them. You just place the cursor in the appropriate
  field and then hit the key you want. The characters can be entered into the
  Station-Name box, Survey-Name box or any of the other text fields.
 
  If your keyboard doesn't have the characters you want, one way to generate
  those characters is to use the "Alt-codes". 
 "Alt" codes work by holding down
  the "Alt" key and then entering a three digit decimal number into the
  "Numeric Keypad" on your computer. When you release the "Alt" key, the
  character that corresponds to the numeric value will be entered at the
  cursor. This only works when you enter the numeric value into the numeric
  keypad. In addition, "Num Lock" must be enabled. As an example, if I enter
  "Alt", then 0233 and finally release the "Alt" key, the accented "e"
  character is entered: "". The zero at the beginning of the number is
  required and the 0233 is the ASCII value for the character. (For reasons
  that I don't understand, you can also get "" character by enter Alt-130.)
  This web site will give you more information about the Alt-Keycodes:
  
 http://tlt.its. 
 psu.edu/suggesti ons/internationa l/accents/ codealt.html
 
  If you don't have a Numeric Keypad, Windows also has an "International"
  mode. In International Mode, special short-cuts are added that make it
  easier to enter certain characters. For example, if the international
  keyboard option is enabled, pressing "RightAlt+?" will enter an
  "Up-side-down- question- mark" "". There is detailed information about
  enabling and using the "International Keyboard" option here:
  
 http://tlt.its. 
 psu.edu/suggesti ons/internationa l/accents/ codeint.html
 
  If you have any other questions, feel free to write.
 
  Larry
 
  _____
 
  From: 
 [email protected] 
 yahoogroups. com [mailto:[email protected] yahoogroups. com]
  On Behalf Of Durga Prasad
  Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 7:42 AM
  To: [email protected] yahoogroups. com
  Subject: [compass-users] Does compass index allow accented chars
 
  Hi ,
 
  I try to insert below names which has accented characters like , o ,  in
  my compass index.my question is Does Compass index accept accented
  characters(non English words/not available chars on keyboard). it would be
  appreciated can any one answered for this.
 
  Names:
 
  1.Wood Tob-Coburn School
 
  2.Tri-Vision International Ltd./Lte
 
  3.Votorantim Participaoes S.A.
 
  4.Compaa Minera Autln, S. A. de C. V.
 
  Thanks,
  dganji

Christian Chnier
Gatineau (Qubec), Canada
(819) 772-8824 

Are you sure you're on the right email list? Your questions sounds like
you're talking about something else. A Google search for Compass API gets
me some programming framework
(
http://www.compass-project.org/), which is far from what this group
is all about (It's about the Compass cave survey software;

http://www.fountainware.com/compass/ ).
Chris

At 07:54 AM 14/07/2008, you wrote:

Hi,
I think you guys did not understand my question.
I want to store/retrieve  data which includes accented(like  )
characters  in/from index using  compass API.
So my question is does compass API support this feature.
Thx,
Durga 
<[email protected]> wrote:

From: Paul Jorgenson KE7HR <[email protected]>

Subject: RE: [compass-users] Does compass index allow accented
chars

To: [email protected]

Cc: "Larry Fish" <[email protected]>

Date: Tuesday, July 8, 2008, 2:27 PM

If you could generate the text like the example at the bottom of the
first email message, then cutting and pasting from a text file would
possibly be another valid method of inserting the correct characters.
Type them once and then cut and paste where needed.

--

Paul Jorgenson

KE7HR (remotely)

--

---- Larry Fish
<[email protected]> wrote: 

> Dganji,

> 

> Thanks for your letter. Compass does accept accented characters
if your

> keyboard will generate them. You just place the cursor in the
appropriate

> field and then hit the key you want. The characters can be
entered into the

> Station-Name box, Survey-Name box or any of the other text
fields.

> 

> If your keyboard doesn't have the characters you want, one way
to generate

> those characters is to use the "Alt-codes".
"Alt" codes work by holding down

> the "Alt" key and then entering a three digit decimal
number into the

> "Numeric Keypad" on your computer. When you release
the "Alt" key, the

> character that corresponds to the numeric value will be entered
at the

> cursor. This only works when you enter the numeric value into
the numeric

> keypad. In addition, "Num Lock" must be enabled. As an
example, if I enter

> "Alt", then 0233 and finally release the
"Alt" key, the accented "e"

> character is entered: "". The zero at the beginning
of the number is

> required and the 0233 is the ASCII value for the character. (For
reasons

> that I don't understand, you can also get ""
character by enter Alt-130.)

> This web site will give you more information about the
Alt-Keycodes:

> 

>

http://tlt.its. psu.edu/suggesti ons/internationa l/accents/
codealt.html

> 

> If you don't have a Numeric Keypad, Windows also has an
"International"

> mode. In International Mode, special short-cuts are added that
make it

> easier to enter certain characters. For example, if the
international

> keyboard option is enabled, pressing "RightAlt+?" will
enter an

> "Up-side-down- question- mark" "". There is
detailed information about

> enabling and using the "International Keyboard" option
here:

> 

>

http://tlt.its. psu.edu/suggesti ons/internationa l/accents/
codeint.html

> 

> If you have any other questions, feel free to write.

> 

> Larry

> 

> _____ 

> 

> From:
[email protected]
yahoogroups. com
[
mailto:[email protected] yahoogroups. com]

> On Behalf Of Durga Prasad

> Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 7:42 AM

> To:
[email protected]
yahoogroups. com

> Subject: [compass-users] Does compass index allow accented
chars

> 

> 

> Hi ,

> 

> I try to insert below names which has accented characters like
, o ,  in

> my compass index.my question is Does Compass index accept
accented

> characters(non English words/not available chars on keyboard).
it would be

> appreciated can any one answered for this.

> 

> 

> Names:

> 

> 1.Wood Tob-Coburn School

> 

> 2.Tri-Vision International Ltd./Lte

> 

> 3.Votorantim Participaoes S.A.

> 

> 4.Compaa Minera Autln, S. A. de C. V.

> 

> 

> Thanks,

> dganji

Christian Chnier
Gatineau (Qubec), Canada
(819) 772-8824


Messsage #: 107
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 07:35:43 -0000
From: "lfish222" 
Subject: New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features.

Hi Everybody,

I wanted to let everyone know that I have just released a new version 
of Compass with a special new feature. The latest version will allow 
you to export your cave data as KML files. KML files are used by 
Google Earth to display all kinds of geographic information. In this 
case, Compass exports the passage information in the KML file. When 
Google Earth reads the file, it overlays the terrain around the cave 
with passage outlines. This allows you to see the cave in relation to 
terrain features.

The KML files can be posted on the internet for other people to look 
at. For example, if you have Google Earth installed and you click on 
or paste the following link in your browser, you will get to see 
Fulford Cave and the terrain around it:

http://www.fountainware.com/compass/Fulford.kml

Even though the cave is very well known and visited by lots of non-
cavers, it is still fairly pristine, probably because of the terrain 
and the steep hike up to the entrance. It is also located in some 
very beautiful mountain terrain. There is a 14,000 foot (4,267 meter) 
peak and a wilderness area immediately to the east.

Larry


Messsage #: 108
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 10:43:38 +0200
From: "Paul De Bie" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features.

Hi Larry, 
great stuff, i've been waiting for this all of my life :-)

But, here in Europe it doesn't work. Google earth drwas some kind of track but it goes all the way
from the northpole to the equator...

I think it has got to do with the decimal sign. 
If I look at your Fulfords example:
              
                -106.65468497,39.49340730
                -106.65463232,39.49342560
                -106.65460472,39.49340939
                -106.65466668,39.49338156
                -106.65468497,39.49340730

However when exporting one of my caves:
              
                4,94347699,50,29083616
                4,94345354,50,29082402
                4,94344972,50,29082957
                4,94347601,50,29084567
                4,94347699,50,29083616

I think Google Earth will only accept a "." as the decimal sign. But over here, computers are most
of the time using the "," as the decimal sign. 
I hope you can fix this, because I would sure like to use this option!

TIA

Paul De Bie
http://www.scavalon.be
http://scavalon.blogspot.com
http://pollekepik.blogspot.com

 -----Original Message-----
 From: [email protected] 
 [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of lfish222
 Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 9:36 AM
 To: [email protected]
 Subject: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google 
 Earth/KML features.
 
 Hi Everybody,
 
 I wanted to let everyone know that I have just released a new 
 version of Compass with a special new feature. The latest 
 version will allow you to export your cave data as KML files. 
 KML files are used by Google Earth to display all kinds of 
 geographic information. In this case, Compass exports the 
 passage information in the KML file. When Google Earth reads 
 the file, it overlays the terrain around the cave with 
 passage outlines. This allows you to see the cave in relation 
 to terrain features.
 
 The KML files can be posted on the internet for other people 
 to look at. For example, if you have Google Earth installed 
 and you click on or paste the following link in your browser, 
 you will get to see Fulford Cave and the terrain around it:
 
 http://www.fountainware.com/compass/Fulford.kml
 
 Even though the cave is very well known and visited by lots 
 of non- cavers, it is still fairly pristine, probably because 
 of the terrain and the steep hike up to the entrance. It is 
 also located in some very beautiful mountain terrain. There 
 is a 14,000 foot (4,267 meter) peak and a wilderness area 
 immediately to the east.
 
 Larry
 
 ------------------------------------
 
 Yahoo! Groups Links


Messsage #: 109
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 03:10:25 -0600
From: "Larry Fish" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features.

Paul,

I always forget about the decimal point versus comma problem! I have a very
simple flag that I can set that turns off the "International" settings and
forces everything to use a "period" for the "decimal separator". I wrote the
routines years ago when I first got bit by the problem, but I always forget
to use them.

At any rate, there is a new version on the net that should deal with the
problem. Let me know if it fixes the issue. I tested the problem by changing
my settings to use the "comma" for the decimal point, but I could have
overlooked something.

Thanks for catching the problem!!!

Larry

  _____  

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Paul De Bie
Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 2:44 AM
Subject: RE: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML
features.

Hi Larry, 
great stuff, i've been waiting for this all of my life :-)

But, here in Europe it doesn't work. Google earth drwas some kind of track
but it goes all the way
from the northpole to the equator...

I think it has got to do with the decimal sign. 
If I look at your Fulfords example:

-106.65468497,39.49340730
-106.65463232,39.49342560
-106.65460472,39.49340939
-106.65466668,39.49338156
-106.65468497,39.49340730

However when exporting one of my caves:

4,94347699,50,29083616
4,94345354,50,29082402
4,94344972,50,29082957
4,94347601,50,29084567
4,94347699,50,29083616

I think Google Earth will only accept a "." as the decimal sign. But over
here, computers are most
of the time using the "," as the decimal sign. 
I hope you can fix this, because I would sure like to use this option!

TIA

Paul De Bie
http://www.scavalon  .be
http://scavalon.  blogspot.com
http://pollekepik.  blogspot.com

 -----Original Message-----
 From: [email protected] 
yahoogroups.com 
 [mailto:[email protected] 
yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of lfish222
 Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 9:36 AM
 To: [email protected] 
yahoogroups.com
 Subject: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google 
 Earth/KML features.
 
 Hi Everybody,
 
 I wanted to let everyone know that I have just released a new 
 version of Compass with a special new feature. The latest 
 version will allow you to export your cave data as KML files. 
 KML files are used by Google Earth to display all kinds of 
 geographic information. In this case, Compass exports the 
 passage information in the KML file. When Google Earth reads 
 the file, it overlays the terrain around the cave with 
 passage outlines. This allows you to see the cave in relation 
 to terrain features.
 
 The KML files can be posted on the internet for other people 
 to look at. For example, if you have Google Earth installed 
 and you click on or paste the following link in your browser, 
 you will get to see Fulford Cave and the terrain around it:
 
 http://www.fountain 
ware.com/compass/Fulford.kml
 
 Even though the cave is very well known and visited by lots 
 of non- cavers, it is still fairly pristine, probably because 
 of the terrain and the steep hike up to the entrance. It is 
 also located in some very beautiful mountain terrain. There 
 is a 14,000 foot (4,267 meter) peak and a wilderness area 
 immediately to the east.
 
 Larry
 
 ------------------------------------
 
 Yahoo! Groups Links

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Messsage #: 110
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 11:17:05 +0200
From: "Paul De Bie" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features.

Hi Larry, 

I've tried in Windows Control panel to put my International options on US.

OK, Compass now creates a KML file with the cave and including passages. 
However it is not exactly positioned in GE where it should be.
In one case, the cave is about hundred meters off.
In another case, it is several hundreds of kilometers off (it seems as if Compass is interpreting
the UTM European Datum 1950 30 coordinates as being 31 ?  

Both caves have got their Base location set, approximately. 
Both caves have got fixed stations (entrances) that are set to the EXACT coordinates. 

The coordinates that Compass is calculating have always been exact for these caves (e.g. when
looking at the coordinates for each station)

Yet in the Google Earth export there is a shift.

Can you explain what is happening? 

TIA

Paul De Bie
http://www.scavalon.be
http://scavalon.blogspot.com
http://pollekepik.blogspot.com

 -----Original Message-----
 From: [email protected] 
 [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Paul De Bie
 Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 10:44 AM
 To: [email protected]
 Subject: RE: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google 
 Earth/KML features.
 
 Hi Larry,
 great stuff, i've been waiting for this all of my life :-)
 
 But, here in Europe it doesn't work. Google earth drwas some 
 kind of track but it goes all the way from the northpole to 
 the equator...
 
 I think it has got to do with the decimal sign. 
 If I look at your Fulfords example:
               
                 -106.65468497,39.49340730
                 -106.65463232,39.49342560
                 -106.65460472,39.49340939
                 -106.65466668,39.49338156
                 -106.65468497,39.49340730
 
 However when exporting one of my caves:
               
                 4,94347699,50,29083616
                 4,94345354,50,29082402
                 4,94344972,50,29082957
                 4,94347601,50,29084567
                 4,94347699,50,29083616
 
 I think Google Earth will only accept a "." as the decimal 
 sign. But over here, computers are most of the time using the 
 "," as the decimal sign. 
 I hope you can fix this, because I would sure like to use this option!
 
 TIA
 
 Paul De Bie
 http://www.scavalon.be
 http://scavalon.blogspot.com
 http://pollekepik.blogspot.com
 
  -----Original Message-----
  From: [email protected]
  [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of lfish222
  Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 9:36 AM
  To: [email protected]
  Subject: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML 
  features.
  
  Hi Everybody,
  
  I wanted to let everyone know that I have just released a 
 new version 
  of Compass with a special new feature. The latest version 
 will allow 
  you to export your cave data as KML files.
  KML files are used by Google Earth to display all kinds of 
 geographic 
  information. In this case, Compass exports the passage 
 information in 
  the KML file. When Google Earth reads the file, it overlays the 
  terrain around the cave with passage outlines. This allows 
 you to see 
  the cave in relation to terrain features.
  
  The KML files can be posted on the internet for other 
 people to look 
  at. For example, if you have Google Earth installed and you 
 click on 
  or paste the following link in your browser, you will get to see 
  Fulford Cave and the terrain around it:
  
  http://www.fountainware.com/compass/Fulford.kml
  
  Even though the cave is very well known and visited by lots of non- 
  cavers, it is still fairly pristine, probably because of 
 the terrain 
  and the steep hike up to the entrance. It is also located 
 in some very 
  beautiful mountain terrain. There is a 14,000 foot (4,267 
 meter) peak 
  and a wilderness area immediately to the east.
  
  Larry
  
  ------------------------------------
  
  Yahoo! Groups Links
 
 ------------------------------------
 
 Yahoo! Groups Links


Messsage #: 111
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 11:25:07 +0200
From: "Paul De Bie" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features.

Hi Larry,
 
I've just posted another issue that has crossed this reply of years. 
 
WOW... that's the fastest support I've ever seen. The decimal point issue is already fixed, it works
now!!
 
Yet the other problem remains. 
 
I'm quite sure that in one case, it looks as if Compass is not interpreting the UTM zone correectly.
In G.E. the cave is showing about 500 km to the east of where it should be (so in the 31T zone
instead of 30). The N/S position seems to be OK. 
 
bye

Paul De Bie
http://www.scavalon.be  
http://scavalon.blogspot.com  
http://pollekepik.blogspot.com  

  _____  

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Larry Fish
Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 11:10 AM
Subject: RE: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features.

Paul,

I always forget about the decimal point versus comma problem! I have a very simple flag that I can
set that turns off the "International" settings and forces everything to use a "period" for the
"decimal separator". I wrote the routines years ago when I first got bit by the problem, but I
always forget to use them.

At any rate, there is a new version on the net that should deal with the problem. Let me know if it
fixes the issue. I tested the problem by changing my settings to use the "comma" for the decimal
point, but I could have overlooked something.

Thanks for catching the problem!!!

Larry

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Hi Larry,
 
I've just posted another issue that has crossed this 
reply of years. 
 
WOW... that's the fastest support I've ever seen. The 
decimal point issue is already fixed, it works now!!
 
Yet the other problem remains. 
 
I'm quite sure that in one case, it looks as if Compass 
is not interpreting the UTM zone correectly. In G.E. the cave is showing about 
500 km to the east of where it should be (so in the 31T zone instead of 30). The 
N/S position seems to be OK. 
 
bye
Paul De Biehttp://www.scavalon.behttp://scavalon.blogspot.comhttp://pollekepik.blogspot.com
 
  
  From: [email protected] 
  [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Larry 
  FishSent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 11:10 AMTo: 
  [email protected]: RE: [compass-users] New 
  Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features.
  
  Paul,
   
  I always forget about 
  the decimal point versus comma problem! I have a very simple flag that I can 
  set that turns off the “International” settings and forces everything to use a 
  “period” for the “decimal separator”. I wrote the routines years ago when I 
  first got bit by the problem, but I always forget to use 
  them.
   
  At any rate, there is 
  a new version on the net that should deal with the problem. Let me know if it 
  fixes the issue. I tested the problem by changing my settings to use the 
  “comma” for the decimal point, but I could have overlooked 
  something.
   
  Thanks for catching 
  the problem!!!
   
  Larry
   
   


Messsage #: 112
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 04:51:17 -0600
From: "Larry Fish" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features.

Paul,

Can you send me a copy of the Compass data you are using? Send it directly
to me if you are concerned about it getting out into the public:

[email protected]

Also, send me the UTM coordinates of the entrance separately and also the
Longitude and Latitude would be good so I can check the data against several
different references.

Larry

  _____  

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Paul De Bie
Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 3:17 AM
Subject: RE: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML
features.

Hi Larry, 

I've tried in Windows Control panel to put my International options on US.

OK, Compass now creates a KML file with the cave and including passages. 
However it is not exactly positioned in GE where it should be.
In one case, the cave is about hundred meters off.
In another case, it is several hundreds of kilometers off (it seems as if
Compass is interpreting
the UTM European Datum 1950 30 coordinates as being 31 ? 

Both caves have got their Base location set, approximately. 
Both caves have got fixed stations (entrances) that are set to the EXACT
coordinates. 

The coordinates that Compass is calculating have always been exact for these
caves (e.g. when
looking at the coordinates for each station)

Yet in the Google Earth export there is a shift.

Can you explain what is happening? 

TIA

Paul De Bie
http://www.scavalon  .be
http://scavalon.  blogspot.com
http://pollekepik.  blogspot.com

 -----Original Message-----
 From: [email protected] 
yahoogroups.com 
 [mailto:[email protected] 
yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul De Bie
 Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 10:44 AM
 To: [email protected] 
yahoogroups.com
 Subject: RE: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google 
 Earth/KML features.
 
 Hi Larry,
 great stuff, i've been waiting for this all of my life :-)
 
 But, here in Europe it doesn't work. Google earth drwas some 
 kind of track but it goes all the way from the northpole to 
 the equator...
 
 I think it has got to do with the decimal sign. 
 If I look at your Fulfords example:
 
 -106.65468497,39.49340730
 -106.65463232,39.49342560
 -106.65460472,39.49340939
 -106.65466668,39.49338156
 -106.65468497,39.49340730
 
 However when exporting one of my caves:
 
 4,94347699,50,29083616
 4,94345354,50,29082402
 4,94344972,50,29082957
 4,94347601,50,29084567
 4,94347699,50,29083616
 
 I think Google Earth will only accept a "." as the decimal 
 sign. But over here, computers are most of the time using the 
 "," as the decimal sign. 
 I hope you can fix this, because I would sure like to use this option!
 
 TIA
 
 Paul De Bie
 http://www.scavalon  .be
 http://scavalon.  blogspot.com
 http://pollekepik.  blogspot.com
 
  -----Original Message-----
  From: [email protected] 
yahoogroups.com
  [mailto:[email protected] 
yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of lfish222
  Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 9:36 AM
  To: [email protected] 
yahoogroups.com
  Subject: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML 
  features.
  
  Hi Everybody,
  
  I wanted to let everyone know that I have just released a 
 new version 
  of Compass with a special new feature. The latest version 
 will allow 
  you to export your cave data as KML files.
  KML files are used by Google Earth to display all kinds of 
 geographic 
  information. In this case, Compass exports the passage 
 information in 
  the KML file. When Google Earth reads the file, it overlays the 
  terrain around the cave with passage outlines. This allows 
 you to see 
  the cave in relation to terrain features.
  
  The KML files can be posted on the internet for other 
 people to look 
  at. For example, if you have Google Earth installed and you 
 click on 
  or paste the following link in your browser, you will get to see 
  Fulford Cave and the terrain around it:
  
  http://www.fountain 
ware.com/compass/Fulford.kml
  
  Even though the cave is very well known and visited by lots of non- 
  cavers, it is still fairly pristine, probably because of 
 the terrain 
  and the steep hike up to the entrance. It is also located 
 in some very 
  beautiful mountain terrain. There is a 14,000 foot (4,267 
 meter) peak 
  and a wilderness area immediately to the east.
  
  Larry
  
  ------------------------------------
  
  Yahoo! Groups Links
 
 ------------------------------------
 
 Yahoo! Groups Links

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Messsage #: 113
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 14:37:06 +0200
From: "Paul De Bie" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features.

Hi Larry, 
I've sent you an example in a private mail. 
 
Two other problems:
- installing this new version resulted in loosing all of my preferences (in Project Manager and
Viewer). This is quite tricky because there are some prefreences (such as "use UTM convergence" or
"Calculate declinations" that have a very big effect on the rotation of your survey!  BTW (we've
talked about that several times, long ago): these two preferences should really be unique per
Project.
 
- I told you about one cave that is shown in GE, shifted about 100 metres from its real location.
I've seen what is causing this: it is your geocalculator. Probably you are using it also for
calculating all the coordinates for the KML file?
An example:
 
UTM ED50 (30T) X=684243 m   Y=475732 m
converted into UTM decimal degrees this gives me, with the convertor I'm always using (and which is
IMO precise to 1 m):
42,944401 and -0,74292427
 
However with your Geocalculator I get:
42,945485 and -0,74172354
 
The difference seems trivial, but when converting this outcome back to UTM ED50 this gives:
X=684337,8 m   Y=4757443,9 m which is 94,8, resp 122,9 m different from what I consider the
"correct" position.
 
HTH

Paul De Bie
http://www.scavalon.be  
http://scavalon.blogspot.com  
http://pollekepik.blogspot.com  

  _____  

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Larry Fish
Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 12:51 PM
Subject: RE: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features.

Paul,

Can you send me a copy of the Compass data you are using? Send it directly to me if you are
concerned about it getting out into the public:

[email protected]

Also, send me the UTM coordinates of the entrance separately and also the Longitude and Latitude
would be good so I can check the data against several different references.

Larry

  _____  

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Paul De Bie
Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 3:17 AM
Subject: RE: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features.

Hi Larry, 

I've tried in Windows Control panel to put my International options on US.

OK, Compass now creates a KML file with the cave and including passages. 
However it is not exactly positioned in GE where it should be.
In one case, the cave is about hundred meters off.
In another case, it is several hundreds of kilometers off (it seems as if Compass is interpreting
the UTM European Datum 1950 30 coordinates as being 31 ? 

Both caves have got their Base location set, approximately. 
Both caves have got fixed stations (entrances) that are set to the EXACT coordinates. 

The coordinates that Compass is calculating have always been exact for these caves (e.g. when
looking at the coordinates for each station)

Yet in the Google Earth export there is a shift.

Can you explain what is happening? 

TIA

Paul De Bie
http://www.scavalon  .be
http://scavalon.  blogspot.com
http://pollekepik.  blogspot.com

 -----Original Message-----
 From: [email protected]  yahoogroups.com 
 [mailto:[email protected]  yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul
De Bie
 Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 10:44 AM
 To: [email protected]  yahoogroups.com
 Subject: RE: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google 
 Earth/KML features.
 
 Hi Larry,
 great stuff, i've been waiting for this all of my life :-)
 
 But, here in Europe it doesn't work. Google earth drwas some 
 kind of track but it goes all the way from the northpole to 
 the equator...
 
 I think it has got to do with the decimal sign. 
 If I look at your Fulfords example:
 
 -106.65468497,39.49340730
 -106.65463232,39.49342560
 -106.65460472,39.49340939
 -106.65466668,39.49338156
 -106.65468497,39.49340730
 
 However when exporting one of my caves:
 
 4,94347699,50,29083616
 4,94345354,50,29082402
 4,94344972,50,29082957
 4,94347601,50,29084567
 4,94347699,50,29083616
 
 I think Google Earth will only accept a "." as the decimal 
 sign. But over here, computers are most of the time using the 
 "," as the decimal sign. 
 I hope you can fix this, because I would sure like to use this option!
 
 TIA
 
 Paul De Bie
 http://www.scavalon  .be
 http://scavalon.  blogspot.com
 http://pollekepik.  blogspot.com
 
  -----Original Message-----
  From: [email protected]  yahoogroups.com
  [mailto:[email protected]  yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
lfish222
  Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 9:36 AM
  To: [email protected]  yahoogroups.com
  Subject: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML 
  features.
  
  Hi Everybody,
  
  I wanted to let everyone know that I have just released a 
 new version 
  of Compass with a special new feature. The latest version 
 will allow 
  you to export your cave data as KML files.
  KML files are used by Google Earth to display all kinds of 
 geographic 
  information. In this case, Compass exports the passage 
 information in 
  the KML file. When Google Earth reads the file, it overlays the 
  terrain around the cave with passage outlines. This allows 
 you to see 
  the cave in relation to terrain features.
  
  The KML files can be posted on the internet for other 
 people to look 
  at. For example, if you have Google Earth installed and you 
 click on 
  or paste the following link in your browser, you will get to see 
  Fulford Cave and the terrain around it:
  
  http://www.fountain 
ware.com/compass/Fulford.kml
  
  Even though the cave is very well known and visited by lots of non- 
  cavers, it is still fairly pristine, probably because of 
 the terrain 
  and the steep hike up to the entrance. It is also located 
 in some very 
  beautiful mountain terrain. There is a 14,000 foot (4,267 
 meter) peak 
  and a wilderness area immediately to the east.
  
  Larry
  
  ------------------------------------
  
  Yahoo! Groups Links
 
 ------------------------------------
 
 Yahoo! Groups Links

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Hi Larry, 
I've sent you an example in a private mail. 

 
Two other problems:
- installing this new version resulted in loosing all of my 
preferences (in Project Manager and Viewer). This is quite tricky because there 
are some prefreences (such as "use UTM convergence" or "Calculate declinations" 
that have a very big effect on the rotation of your survey!  BTW (we've 
talked about that several times, long ago): these two preferences should really 
be unique per Project.
 
- I told you about one cave that is shown in GE, shifted 
about 100 metres from its real location. I've seen what is causing this: it is 
your geocalculator. Probably you are using it also for calculating all the 
coordinates for the KML file?
An example:
 
UTM ED50 (30T) X=684243 m   Y=475732 
m
converted into UTM decimal degrees this gives me, with the 
convertor I'm always using (and which is IMO precise to 1 
m):
42,944401 and -0,74292427
 
However with your Geocalculator I get:
42,945485 and -0,74172354
 
The difference seems trivial, but when converting this 
outcome back to UTM ED50 this gives:
X=684337,8 m   Y=4757443,9 m which is 
94,8, resp 122,9 m different from what I consider the "correct" 
position.
 
HTH
Paul De Biehttp://www.scavalon.behttp://scavalon.blogspot.comhttp://pollekepik.blogspot.com
 
  
  From: [email protected] 
  [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Larry 
  FishSent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 12:51 PMTo: 
  [email protected]: RE: [compass-users] New 
  Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features.
  
  Paul,
   
  Can you send me a 
  copy of the Compass data you are using? Send it directly to me if you are 
  concerned about it getting out into the public:
   
  [email protected]
   
  Also, send me the UTM 
  coordinates of the entrance separately and also the Longitude and Latitude 
  would be good so I can check the data against several different 
  references.
   
  Larry
   
   
  
  From: 
  [email protected] 
  [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Paul De BieSent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 3:17 
  AMTo: [email protected]: RE: [compass-users] New Compass 
  Release with Google Earth/KML features.
   
  
  Hi Larry, I've tried in Windows Control panel 
  to put my International options on US.OK, Compass now creates a KML 
  file with the cave and including passages. However it is not exactly 
  positioned in GE where it should be.In one case, the cave is about hundred 
  meters off.In another case, it is several hundreds of kilometers off (it 
  seems as if Compass is interpretingthe UTM European Datum 1950 30 
  coordinates as being 31 ? Both caves have got their Base location set, 
  approximately. Both caves have got fixed stations (entrances) that are set 
  to the EXACT coordinates. The coordinates that Compass is calculating 
  have always been exact for these caves (e.g. whenlooking at the 
  coordinates for each station)Yet in the Google Earth export there is a 
  shift.Can you explain what is happening? TIAPaul De 
  Biehttp://www.scavalon.behttp://scavalon.blogspot.comhttp://pollekepik.blogspot.com> 
  -----Original Message-----> From: [email protected] 
  > [mailto:[email protected]] 
  On Behalf Of Paul De Bie> Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 10:44 AM> 
  To: [email protected]> 
  Subject: RE: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google > 
  Earth/KML features.> > Hi Larry,> great stuff, i've been 
  waiting for this all of my life :-)> > But, here in Europe it doesn't work. Google earth drwas some > 
  kind of track but it goes all the way from the northpole to > the 
  equator...> > > I think it has got to do with the decimal 
  sign. > If I look at your Fulfords example:> 
  <LinearRing>> <coordinates>> 
  -106.65468497,39.49340730> -106.65463232,39.49342560> 
  -106.65460472,39.49340939> -106.65466668,39.49338156> 
  -106.65468497,39.49340730> </coordinates>> 
  </LinearRing>> > > However when exporting one of my 
  caves:> > <LinearRing>> <coordinates>> 
  4,94347699,50,29083616> 4,94345354,50,29082402> 
  4,94344972,50,29082957> 4,94347601,50,29084567> 
  4,94347699,50,29083616> </coordinates>> 
  </LinearRing>> > I think Google Earth will only accept a 
  "." as the decimal > sign. But over here, computers are most of the 
  time using the > "," as the decimal sign. > I hope you can fix 
  this, because I would sure like to use this option!> > 
  TIA> > Paul De Bie> http://www.scavalon.be> http://scavalon.blogspot.com> 
  http://pollekepik.blogspot.com> 
  > > > -----Original Message-----> > From: [email protected]> 
  > [mailto:[email protected]] 
  On Behalf Of lfish222> > Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 9:36 AM> 
  > To: [email protected]> 
  > Subject: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML 
  > > features.> > > > Hi Everybody,> > 
  > > I wanted to let everyone know that I have just released a 
  > new version > > of Compass with a special new feature. The 
  latest version > will allow > > you to export your cave data 
  as KML files.> > KML files are used by Google Earth to display all 
  kinds of > geographic > > information. In this case, Compass 
  exports the passage > information in > > the KML file. When 
  Google Earth reads the file, it overlays the > > terrain around the 
  cave with passage outlines. This allows > you to see > > the 
  cave in relation to terrain features.> > > > The KML files 
  can be posted on the internet for other > people to look > > 
  at. For example, if you have Google Earth installed and you > click on 
  > > or paste the following link in your browser, you will get to see 
  > > Fulford Cave and the terrain around it:> 
  > > > http://www.fountainware.com/compass/Fulford.kml> 
  > > > Even though the cave is very well known and visited by lots 
  of non- > > cavers, it is still fairly pristine, probably because of 
  > the terrain > > and the steep hike up to the entrance. It 
  is also located > in some very > > beautiful mountain 
  terrain. There is a 14,000 foot (4,267 > meter) peak > > and 
  a wilderness area immediately to the east.> > > > 
  Larry> > > > > > > > > > 
  > > ------------------------------------> > 
  > > Yahoo! Groups Links> > > > > > 
  > > > > > > 
  ------------------------------------> > Yahoo! 
  Groups Links> > > > 


Messsage #: 114
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 10:15:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: Rick Brinkman 
Subject: Re: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features.

THIS IS SO COOL!!!!

Thanks!!!!!!!

From: lfish222 
Subject: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features.
Date: Sunday, July 20, 2008, 1:35 AM
    
            Hi Everybody,

I wanted to let everyone know that I have just released a new version 

of Compass with a special new feature. The latest version will allow 

you to export your cave data as KML files. KML files are used by 

Google Earth to display all kinds of geographic information. In this 

case, Compass exports the passage information in the KML file. When 

Google Earth reads the file, it overlays the terrain around the cave 

with passage outlines. This allows you to see the cave in relation to 

terrain features.

The KML files can be posted on the internet for other people to look 

at. For example, if you have Google Earth installed and you click on 

or paste the following link in your browser, you will get to see 

Fulford Cave and the terrain around it:

http://www.fountain ware.com/ compass/Fulford. kml

Even though the cave is very well known and visited by lots of non-

cavers, it is still fairly pristine, probably because of the terrain 

and the steep hike up to the entrance. It is also located in some 

very beautiful mountain terrain. There is a 14,000 foot (4,267 meter) 

peak and a wilderness area immediately to the east.

Larry

THIS IS SO COOL!!!!Thanks!!!!!!!--- On Sun, 7/20/08, lfish222 <[email protected]> wrote:From: lfish222 <[email protected]>Subject: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features.To: [email protected]: Sunday, July 20, 2008, 1:35 AM
    
            Hi Everybody,

I wanted to let everyone know that I have just released a new version 
of Compass with a special new feature. The latest version will allow 
you to export your cave data as KML files. KML files are used by 
Google Earth to display all kinds of geographic information. In this 
case, Compass exports the passage information in the KML file. When 
Google Earth reads the file, it overlays the terrain around the cave 
with passage outlines. This allows you to see the cave in relation to 
terrain features.

The KML files can be posted on the internet for other people to look 
at. For example, if you have Google Earth installed and you click on 
or paste the following link in your browser, you will get to see 
Fulford Cave and the terrain around it:

http://www.fountain ware.com/ compass/Fulford. kml

Even though the cave is very well known and visited by lots of non-
cavers, it is still fairly pristine, probably because of the terrain 
and the steep hike up to the entrance. It is also located in some 
very beautiful mountain terrain. There is a 14,000 foot (4,267 meter) 
peak and a wilderness area immediately to the east.

Larry


Messsage #: 115
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 22:35:47 -0600
From: "Larry Fish" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features.

Paul,

I think I have solved both KML problems you are experiencing. I will start
by talking about the KML issues:

1. The first issue is the problem of the cave being located far to the east
in middle of the Mediterranean Sea. It turns out that in your MAK file there
are tags showing both 30 and 31 for the UTM zone.  (These are not visible in
the Project Manager; you have to use a text editor to see them.) The 3D
Converter uses the last Zone that is found in the MAK files, which in this
case, is zone 31.

I saw this same problem when I first tested the Fulford Cave data.
Apparently, it is an artifact left over from some old bug or quasi-bug in
the Project Manager. Most of the time, the incorrect values are toward the
end of the MAK files and so they are not used by the other parts of the
Project Manager.

The way to solve the problem is to re-save the Project using the Project
Manager. I changed the Project Manager so it specifically strips out
un-necessary Zone information. If you want to be sure your file is clean,
open it in a text editor, (such as "Notepad") and look for the "$" tag. You
may see more than one, but they all should be the same value. Delete any
that are not associated with a fixed station. For those that are associated
with fixed stations, change any values that is wrong.

2. The second problem you describe is a small offset, (usually on the order
of a few hundred meters,) in the caves location. I think this is being
caused by the way Google Earth converts between Longitude and Latitude and
UTM. All coordinates in Google Earth are specified and calculated in
Longitude and Latitude. You can have Google Earth display UTM coordinates,
but it uses the "WGS84 Datum" to calculate the UTM coordinates and there
doesn't appear to be a way to change it:

http://earth.google.com/userguide/v4/ug_importdata.html

Since you are using European 1950, there will always be a discrepancy
between the UTM coordinates in Compass compared to the UTM coordinates in
Google Earth. The way to solve the problem is to use Longitude and Latitude
as your base coordinates when you are working with Google Earth. If you
enter UTM coordinates in European 1950 and Compass converts it Long/Lat that
Long/Lat won't correspond to the UTM coordinates you view in Google Earth.

To verify this idea, I did the following experiment. I used your UTM
coordinates to locate a point in Google Earth and then marked it. I then
read the Long/Lat from Google Earth's and entered those coordinates into
Compass. Finally, I recreated the KML file and this put the entrance, AN6,
was right on the marked spot. This verifies that a Long/Lat taken from
Google Earth and put into Compass will make the KML file land right on the
spot. (One tricky point with the Compass Geo-Calculator is that it will
change coordinates as you change Datum and other things. You need to
re-check the Long/Lat occasionally to make sure it hasn't changed.)

I don't think the datum really matters in this process, as long as both the
Project Manager and the 3D Exporter are using the same datum. (That should
happen automatically but, if you are having trouble it is worth checking.)
Since Google Earth "thinks" in Longitude/Latitude, the UTM coordinates
displayed in Google Earth don't matter as long as Compass converts back to
the original Long/Lat.

The residual problem for you seems to be that your best coordinates are in
UTM, but to be compatible with Google Earth you have to focus and Long/Lat
and ignore UTM. What I would do in your case is to use Google Earth to pick
the correct location visually for the cave. (Since I didn't know where the
entrance really should be, I couldn't do this for you.) You could also use a
GPS receiver, but that would require a trip to Spain.

Once you have established the correct location in Longitude and Latitude,
enter the Long/Lat values in Compass. This will give a different UTM value,
but in the case we are more concerned with aligning the entrance with Google
Earth image. Finally, save the MAK files and re-export the KML file. The
entrance should now fall exactly where it should on the Google Earth image.
If you are worried about having the wrong UTM coordinates in the MAK file,
you can create a separate, special MAK file just for use with Google Earth.

There is also the possibility that Google's aerial photos are incorrectly
aligned with the grid. I have certainly seen misalignments between the
elevation points and the images, so it seems very possible. If there are
misalignments between the coordinates and images, you could have the correct
coordinates and the KML file would not line up with certain landmarks.  

3. I don't really have an idea about what is causing the problem where your
settings are lost when you install a new version. The default information is
saved in these three files: comp32.ini, cavevw32.ini and CaveEd32.ini. They
are normally stored in the Windows directory on your computer. They don't
get overwritten when a new copy of Compass is installed, so I'm not sure how
the setting could be changed. (You can make copies of these files and
restore them if the settings unexpectedly change.)

It is possible that you have more than one copy of the files. Windows will
always take a local copy over the one that is in the Windows directory. The
problem could occur if you have installed Compass in a non-standard
directory and the "INI" files are in that directory. If you installed a new
version in the Standard Directory, it would supersede the old version and
the "INI" files would switch to the Windows directory and you'd lose all
your old settings. That is the only explanation that I can find for the
problem.

Let me know what you think.

Larry

  _____  

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Paul De Bie
Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 6:37 AM
Subject: RE: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML
features.

Hi Larry, 

I've sent you an example in a private mail. 

Two other problems:

- installing this new version resulted in loosing all of my preferences (in
Project Manager and Viewer). This is quite tricky because there are some
prefreences (such as "use UTM convergence" or "Calculate declinations" that
have a very big effect on the rotation of your survey!  BTW (we've talked
about that several times, long ago): these two preferences should really be
unique per Project.

- I told you about one cave that is shown in GE, shifted about 100 metres
from its real location. I've seen what is causing this: it is your
geocalculator. Probably you are using it also for calculating all the
coordinates for the KML file?

An example:

UTM ED50 (30T) X=684243 m   Y=475732 m

converted into UTM decimal degrees this gives me, with the convertor I'm
always using (and which is IMO precise to 1 m):

42,944401 and -0,74292427

However with your Geocalculator I get:

42,945485 and -0,74172354

The difference seems trivial, but when converting this outcome back to UTM
ED50 this gives:

X=684337,8 m   Y=4757443,9 m which is 94,8, resp 122,9 m different from what
I consider the "correct" position.

HTH

Paul De Bie
http://www.scavalon  .be
http://scavalon.  blogspot.com
http://pollekepik.  blogspot.com

  _____  

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Larry Fish
Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 12:51 PM
Subject: RE: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML
features.

Paul,

Can you send me a copy of the Compass data you are using? Send it directly
to me if you are concerned about it getting out into the public:

[email protected]

Also, send me the UTM coordinates of the entrance separately and also the
Longitude and Latitude would be good so I can check the data against several
different references.

Larry

  _____  

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Paul De Bie
Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 3:17 AM
Subject: RE: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML
features.

Hi Larry, 

I've tried in Windows Control panel to put my International options on US.

OK, Compass now creates a KML file with the cave and including passages. 
However it is not exactly positioned in GE where it should be.
In one case, the cave is about hundred meters off.
In another case, it is several hundreds of kilometers off (it seems as if
Compass is interpreting
the UTM European Datum 1950 30 coordinates as being 31 ? 

Both caves have got their Base location set, approximately. 
Both caves have got fixed stations (entrances) that are set to the EXACT
coordinates. 

The coordinates that Compass is calculating have always been exact for these
caves (e.g. when
looking at the coordinates for each station)

Yet in the Google Earth export there is a shift.

Can you explain what is happening? 

TIA

Paul De Bie
http://www.scavalon  .be
http://scavalon.  blogspot.com
http://pollekepik.  blogspot.com

 -----Original Message-----
 From: [email protected] 
yahoogroups.com 
 [mailto:[email protected] 
yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul De Bie
 Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 10:44 AM
 To: [email protected] 
yahoogroups.com
 Subject: RE: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google 
 Earth/KML features.
 
 Hi Larry,
 great stuff, i've been waiting for this all of my life :-)
 
 But, here in Europe it doesn't work. Google earth drwas some 
 kind of track but it goes all the way from the northpole to 
 the equator...
 
 I think it has got to do with the decimal sign. 
 If I look at your Fulfords example:
 
 -106.65468497,39.49340730
 -106.65463232,39.49342560
 -106.65460472,39.49340939
 -106.65466668,39.49338156
 -106.65468497,39.49340730
 
 However when exporting one of my caves:
 
 4,94347699,50,29083616
 4,94345354,50,29082402
 4,94344972,50,29082957
 4,94347601,50,29084567
 4,94347699,50,29083616
 
 I think Google Earth will only accept a "." as the decimal 
 sign. But over here, computers are most of the time using the 
 "," as the decimal sign. 
 I hope you can fix this, because I would sure like to use this option!
 
 TIA
 
 Paul De Bie
 http://www.scavalon  .be
 http://scavalon.  blogspot.com
 http://pollekepik.  blogspot.com
 
  -----Original Message-----
  From: [email protected] 
yahoogroups.com
  [mailto:[email protected] 
yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of lfish222
  Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 9:36 AM
  To: [email protected] 
yahoogroups.com
  Subject: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML 
  features.
  
  Hi Everybody,
  
  I wanted to let everyone know that I have just released a 
 new version 
  of Compass with a special new feature. The latest version 
 will allow 
  you to export your cave data as KML files.
  KML files are used by Google Earth to display all kinds of 
 geographic 
  information. In this case, Compass exports the passage 
 information in 
  the KML file. When Google Earth reads the file, it overlays the 
  terrain around the cave with passage outlines. This allows 
 you to see 
  the cave in relation to terrain features.
  
  The KML files can be posted on the internet for other 
 people to look 
  at. For example, if you have Google Earth installed and you 
 click on 
  or paste the following link in your browser, you will get to see 
  Fulford Cave and the terrain around it:
  
  http://www.fountain 
ware.com/compass/Fulford.kml
  
  Even though the cave is very well known and visited by lots of non- 
  cavers, it is still fairly pristine, probably because of 
 the terrain 
  and the steep hike up to the entrance. It is also located 
 in some very 
  beautiful mountain terrain. There is a 14,000 foot (4,267 
 meter) peak 
  and a wilderness area immediately to the east.
  
  Larry
  
  ------------------------------------
  
  Yahoo! Groups Links
 
 ------------------------------------
 
 Yahoo! Groups Links

v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}

st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }


Messsage #: 116
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 21:58:49 -0700
From: "Paul R. Jorgenson" 
Subject: Re: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features.

I have seen several instances of Google having 100 meter offsets between an expected location, visually, and the displayed position as geographic coordinates.  Google is more of a "pretty picture" view as opposed to a real mappers cartographic view.  And, for most purposes, 100 meters is close enough - but it is a damn long belly crawl!

Modern GPS receivers that have your particular datum installed should be able to do the coordinate conversion to any other datum in their database.  Type in the coordinates with your native datum selected then change the datum and watch the numbers change.  Changing back to your native datum should give the original numbers.  The GPS, like Google maps, work natively in WGS84 and perform the calculation to display in your selected datum "on the fly".

================================  Paul R. Jorgenson KE7HR Phoenix, AZ
   NSS 39382FE - No caves to speak of.
================================
v\:* {
	BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML)
}
o\:* {
	BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML)
}
w\:* {
	BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML)
}
.shape {
	BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML)
}

st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }


Messsage #: 117
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 08:08:37 -0500 (CDT)
From: Dwight Livingston 
Subject: Re: RE: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML
 features.

Larry

I made KML file for Shovel Eater Cave in Germany Valley. A lot of the cavers involved really liked seeing it on Google Earth. Thanks for adding that feature to Compass.

On my machine, when the 3d Export window comes up, I find the export button is hidden. I have to stretch the window to see it. This caused some frustration until I happened upon it, then more because I didn;t realize what I had done.

I was also a little disappointed that the KML was a projection on the surface, rather than a 3D object. Could that be an option in some way?

Thanks

Dwight


Messsage #: 118
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 08:14:22 -0500
From: "Aaron Addison" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features.

This is a limitation of GE.  It will not display subsurface data.  It is
rumored that ArcExplorer (free download) will display subsurface data,
although I have never seen a demo of this capability.

Cheers,

Aaron

________________________________

Aaron Addison

University GIS Coordinator 

Washington University in St. Louis

Campus Box 1169

One Brookings Drive

St. Louis, MO 63130-4899

314 935 6198 - office

[email protected]

________________________________

I was also a little disappointed that the KML was a projection on the
surface, rather than a 3D object. Could that be an option in some way?

Thanks

Dwight

_ 

v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}

st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }


Messsage #: 119
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 21:30:02 +0200
From: "Paul De Bie" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features.

Hi Larry, 
 
thanks for your very detailed answer. See below for my comments.
 
cheers

Paul De Bie
http://www.scavalon.be  
http://scavalon.blogspot.com  
http://pollekepik.blogspot.com  

  _____  

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Larry Fish
Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 6:36 AM
Subject: RE: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features.

Paul,

I think I have solved both KML problems you are experiencing. I will start by talking about the KML
issues:

1. The first issue  

I saw this same problem when I first tested the Fulford Cave data. Apparently, it is an artifact
left over from some old bug or quasi-bug in the Project Manager. Most of the time, the incorrect
values are toward the end of the MAK files and so they are not used by the other parts of the
Project Manager. 

OK, this problem is fixed with your new version! Thanks, works super now. 

2. The second problem you describe is a small offset, (usually on the order of a few hundred
meters,) in the caves location. I think this is being caused by the way Google Earth converts
between Longitude and Latitude and UTM. All coordinates in Google Earth are specified and calculated
in Longitude and Latitude. You can have Google Earth display UTM coordinates, but it uses the "WGS84
Datum" to calculate the UTM coordinates and there doesn't appear to be a way to change it:

http://earth.google.com/userguide/v4/ug_importdata.html

Since you are using European 1950, there will always be a discrepancy between the UTM coordinates in
Compass compared to the UTM coordinates in Google Earth. The way to solve the problem is to use
Longitude and Latitude as your base coordinates when you are working with Google Earth. If you enter
UTM coordinates in European 1950 and Compass converts it Long/Lat that Long/Lat won't correspond to
the UTM coordinates you view in Google Earth. 

Sorry, I don't understand what the problem exactly is. 

It is Compass that writes the KML file, and so it is Compass that converts my coordinates (UTM
ED1950) that it finds in the MAK file, to LAT/LON, right? 

So if there is an offset, then it is already there in the KML file and it has been caused by
Compass. Google doesn't have a clue of what the original datum of the coordinates was. 

(I have also made software that converts coordinates for use in GE. It works without problems.
Source coordinates can be in different formats: UTM ED50, Lambert, WGS84 etc. The result coordinates
are calculated into Lat/LOn (what GE likes most :-) ) and they all show without an offset). 

Are you sure the Compass Geocalculator handles ED1950 coordinates correctly?  In my previous mail I
gave you an example of a big difference between certain coordinates converted with one popular
convertor, and with Compass Geocalculator. You didn't comment on that, what is your opinion about
it? 

I've just retried this exercise with a reliable online convertor:
http://www.gps2cad.com/coordtrans/coordconvert.aspx

Try the pair X=684243m and Y=4757321m (UTM ED50 zone 30)

The outcome is exactly what I already mailed. 

When doing this with Compass Geocalculator, there is a difference of about 95m/123 m which is quite
big and it could explain for the offset I see in Google Earth.  

Now, I don't know if you are using the Compass Geocalculator for your conversion in the Export to
Google Earth option, but if this is the case, then I believe the culprit might be there...

(NB: A question: what is the "Enable Datum Conversion" checkbox on the Geocalculator for? )

To verify this idea, I did the following experiment. I used your UTM coordinates to locate a point
in Google Earth and then marked it. I then read the Long/Lat from Google Earth's and entered those
coordinates into Compass. Finally, I recreated the KML file and this put the entrance, AN6, was
right on the marked spot. This verifies that a Long/Lat taken from Google Earth and put into Compass
will make the KML file land right on the spot. (One tricky point with the Compass Geo-Calculator is
that it will change coordinates as you change Datum and other things. You need to re-check the
Long/Lat occasionally to make sure it hasn't changed.)

I don't think the datum really matters in this process, as long as both the Project Manager and the
3D Exporter are using the same datum. (That should happen automatically but, if you are having
trouble it is worth checking.) Since Google Earth "thinks" in Longitude/Latitude, the UTM
coordinates displayed in Google Earth don't matter as long as Compass converts back to the original
Long/Lat.

The residual problem for you seems to be that your best coordinates are in UTM, but to be compatible
with Google Earth you have to focus and Long/Lat and ignore UTM. What I would do in your case is to
use Google Earth to pick the correct location visually for the cave. (Since I didn't know where the
entrance really should be, I couldn't do this for you.) You could also use a GPS receiver, but that
would require a trip to Spain.

Once you have established the correct location in Longitude and Latitude, enter the Long/Lat values
in Compass. This will give a different UTM value, but in the case we are more concerned with
aligning the entrance with Google Earth image. Finally, save the MAK files and re-export the KML
file. The entrance should now fall exactly where it should on the Google Earth image. If you are
worried about having the wrong UTM coordinates in the MAK file, you can create a separate, special
MAK file just for use with Google Earth. 

Yes, I understand what you mean. That would be a possibility: to correct the offset by cheating with
the coordinates. I'll consider it.  

There is also the possibility that Google's aerial photos are incorrectly aligned with the grid. I
have certainly seen misalignments between the elevation points and the images, so it seems very
possible. If there are misalignments between the coordinates and images, you could have the correct
coordinates and the KML file would not line up with certain landmarks.  
Yes, I have seen misalignment between elevation and images in the order of 100 m. For sure GE is not
hyperprecise, but in general it is quite OK...

3. I don't really have an idea about what is causing the problem where your settings are lost when
you install a new version. The default information is saved in these three files: comp32.ini,
cavevw32.ini and CaveEd32.ini. They are normally stored in the Windows directory on your computer.
They don't get overwritten when a new copy of Compass is installed, so I'm not sure how the setting
could be changed. (You can make copies of these files and restore them if the settings unexpectedly
change.)

It is possible that you have more than one copy of the files. Windows will always take a local copy
over the one that is in the Windows directory. The problem could occur if you have installed Compass
in a non-standard directory and the "INI" files are in that directory. If you installed a new
version in the Standard Directory, it would supersede the old version and the "INI" files would
switch to the Windows directory and you'd lose all your old settings. That is the only explanation
that I can find for the problem.

Well I have Compass installed in a non-standard folder, but there are no INI files there. The
Compass INI files are located in the Windows dir. 

Now, I just installed your latest version, and this time it did not touch the INI files. Weird...

But no big deal, I always check my settings after installing a new version.
Let me know what you think.

Larry

  _____  

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Paul De Bie
Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 6:37 AM
Subject: RE: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features.

Hi Larry, 

I've sent you an example in a private mail. 

Two other problems:

- installing this new version resulted in loosing all of my preferences (in Project Manager and
Viewer). This is quite tricky because there are some prefreences (such as "use UTM convergence" or
"Calculate declinations" that have a very big effect on the rotation of your survey!  BTW (we've
talked about that several times, long ago): these two preferences should really be unique per
Project.

- I told you about one cave that is shown in GE, shifted about 100 metres from its real location.
I've seen what is causing this: it is your geocalculator. Probably you are using it also for
calculating all the coordinates for the KML file?

An example:

UTM ED50 (30T) X=684243 m   Y=475732 m

converted into UTM decimal degrees this gives me, with the convertor I'm always using (and which is
IMO precise to 1 m):

42,944401 and -0,74292427

However with your Geocalculator I get:

42,945485 and -0,74172354

The difference seems trivial, but when converting this outcome back to UTM ED50 this gives:

X=684337,8 m   Y=4757443,9 m which is 94,8, resp 122,9 m different from what I consider the
"correct" position.

HTH

Paul De Bie
http://www.scavalon  .be
http://scavalon.  blogspot.com
http://pollekepik.  blogspot.com

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Hi Larry, 
 
thanks for your very detailed answer. See below for my 
comments.
 
cheers
Paul De Biehttp://www.scavalon.behttp://scavalon.blogspot.comhttp://pollekepik.blogspot.com
 
  
  From: [email protected] 
  [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Larry 
  FishSent: Monday, July 21, 2008 6:36 AMTo: 
  [email protected]: RE: [compass-users] New 
  Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features.
  
  Paul,
   
  I think I have solved 
  both KML problems you are experiencing. I will start by talking about the KML 
  issues:
   
  1. The first 
  issue  
  I saw this same 
  problem when I first tested the Fulford Cave data. Apparently, it is an artifact 
  left over from some old bug or quasi-bug in the Project Manager. Most of the 
  time, the incorrect values are toward the end of the MAK files and so they are 
  not used by the other parts of the Project Manager. 
   
  OK, this problem is fixed with 
  your new version! Thanks, works super now. 
  
   
  2. The second problem 
  you describe is a small offset, (usually on the order of a few hundred 
  meters,) in the caves location. I think this is being caused by the way Google 
  Earth converts between Longitude and Latitude and UTM. All coordinates in 
  Google Earth are specified and calculated in Longitude and Latitude. You can 
  have Google Earth display UTM coordinates, but it uses the "WGS84 Datum" to 
  calculate the UTM coordinates and there doesn't appear to be a way to change 
  it:
   
  http://earth.google.com/userguide/v4/ug_importdata.html
   
  Since you are using 
  European 1950, there will always be a discrepancy between the UTM coordinates 
  in Compass compared to the UTM coordinates in Google Earth. The way to solve 
  the problem is to use Longitude and Latitude as your base coordinates when you 
  are working with Google Earth. If you enter UTM coordinates in European 1950 
  and Compass converts it Long/Lat that Long/Lat won't correspond to the UTM 
  coordinates you view in Google Earth. 
   
  Sorry, I don't understand what 
  the problem exactly is. 
  It is Compass that writes the KML 
  file, and so it is Compass that converts my coordinates (UTM ED1950) that it 
  finds in the MAK file, to LAT/LON, right? 
  So if there is an offset, then it 
  is already there in the KML file and it has been caused by Compass. Google 
  doesn't have a clue of what the original datum of the coordinates was. 
  
   
  (I have also made software that 
  converts coordinates for use in GE. It works without problems. Source 
  coordinates can be in different formats: UTM ED50, Lambert, WGS84 etc. The 
  result coordinates are calculated into Lat/LOn (what GE likes most :-) ) and 
  they all show without an offset). 
   
  Are you sure the Compass 
  Geocalculator handles ED1950 coordinates correctly?  In my previous mail 
  I gave you an example of a big difference between certain coordinates 
  converted with one popular convertor, and with Compass Geocalculator. You 
  didn't comment on that, what is your opinion about it? 
  
   
  I've just retried this 
  exercise with a reliable online convertor: http://www.gps2cad.com/coordtrans/coordconvert.aspx
  Try the pair X=684243m and 
  Y=4757321m (UTM ED50 zone 30)
  The outcome is exactly what I 
  already mailed. 
  When doing this with Compass 
  Geocalculator, there is a difference of about 95m/123 m which is quite big and 
  it could explain for the offset I see in Google Earth.  
  
   
  Now, I don't know if you are 
  using the Compass Geocalculator for your conversion in the Export to Google 
  Earth option, but if this is the case, then I believe the culprit might be 
  there...
   
  (NB: A question: what is the 
  "Enable Datum Conversion" checkbox on the Geocalculator for? 
  )
   
   
  To verify this idea, 
  I did the following experiment. I used your UTM coordinates to locate a point 
  in Google Earth and then marked it. I then read the Long/Lat from Google 
  Earth's and entered those coordinates into Compass. Finally, I recreated the 
  KML file and this put the entrance, AN6, was right on the marked spot. This 
  verifies that a Long/Lat taken from Google Earth and put into Compass will 
  make the KML file land right on the spot. (One tricky point with the Compass 
  Geo-Calculator is that it will change coordinates as you change Datum and 
  other things. You need to re-check the Long/Lat occasionally to make sure it 
  hasn't changed.)
   
  I don't think the 
  datum really matters in this process, as long as both the Project Manager and 
  the 3D Exporter are using the same datum. (That should happen automatically 
  but, if you are having trouble it is worth checking.) Since Google Earth 
  "thinks" in Longitude/Latitude, the UTM coordinates displayed in Google Earth 
  don't matter as long as Compass converts back to the original 
  Long/Lat.
   
  The residual problem 
  for you seems to be that your best coordinates are in UTM, but to be 
  compatible with Google Earth you have to focus and Long/Lat and ignore UTM. 
  What I would do in your case is to use Google Earth to pick the correct 
  location visually for the cave. (Since I didn't know where the entrance really 
  should be, I couldn't do this for you.) You could also use a GPS receiver, but 
  that would require a trip to Spain.
   
  Once you have 
  established the correct location in Longitude and Latitude, enter the Long/Lat 
  values in Compass. This will give a different UTM value, but in the case we 
  are more concerned with aligning the entrance with Google Earth image. 
  Finally, save the MAK files and re-export the KML file. The entrance should 
  now fall exactly where it should on the Google Earth image. If you are worried 
  about having the wrong UTM coordinates in the MAK file, you can create a 
  separate, special MAK file just for use with Google Earth. 
   
  Yes, I understand what you mean. 
  That would be a possibility: to correct the offset by cheating with the 
  coordinates. I'll consider it. 
   
   
  There is also the 
  possibility that Google's aerial photos are incorrectly aligned with the grid. 
  I have certainly seen misalignments between the elevation points and the 
  images, so it seems very possible. If there are misalignments between the 
  coordinates and images, you could have the correct coordinates and the KML 
  file would not line up with certain landmarks.   
   
  Yes, I have seen misalignment 
  between elevation and images in the order of 100 m. For sure GE is 
  not hyperprecise, but in general it is quite 
  OK...
   
  3. I don't really 
  have an idea about what is causing the problem where your settings are lost 
  when you install a new version. The default information is saved in these 
  three files: comp32.ini, cavevw32.ini and CaveEd32.ini. They are normally 
  stored in the Windows directory on your computer. They don't get overwritten 
  when a new copy of Compass is installed, so I'm not sure how the setting could 
  be changed. (You can make copies of these files and restore them if the 
  settings unexpectedly change.)
   
  It is possible that 
  you have more than one copy of the files. Windows will always take a local 
  copy over the one that is in the Windows directory. The problem could occur if 
  you have installed Compass in a non-standard directory and the "INI" files are 
  in that directory. If you installed a new version in the Standard Directory, 
  it would supersede the old version and the "INI" files would switch to the 
  Windows directory and you'd lose all your old settings. That is the only 
  explanation that I can find for the problem.
   
  Well I have Compass installed in 
  a non-standard folder, but there are no INI files there. The Compass INI files 
  are located in the Windows 
  dir. 
  Now, I just installed your latest version, and this time it did 
  not touch the INI files. Weird...
  But no big deal, I always check my settings after installing a 
  new version. 
   
   
   
  Let me know what you 
  think.
   
  Larry
   
  
  From: 
  [email protected] 
  [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Paul De BieSent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 6:37 
  AMTo: [email protected]: RE: [compass-users] New Compass 
  Release with Google Earth/KML features.
   
  
  Hi Larry, 
  
  I've sent you an 
  example in a private mail. 
   
  Two other 
  problems:
  - installing this new 
  version resulted in loosing all of my preferences (in Project Manager and 
  Viewer). This is quite tricky because there are some prefreences (such as "use 
  UTM convergence" or "Calculate declinations" that have a very big effect on 
  the rotation of your survey!  BTW (we've talked about that several times, 
  long ago): these two preferences should really be unique per 
  Project.
   
  - I told you about 
  one cave that is shown in GE, shifted about 100 metres from its real location. 
  I've seen what is causing this: it is your geocalculator. Probably you are 
  using it also for calculating all the coordinates for the KML 
  file?
  An 
  example:
   
  UTM ED50 (30T) 
  X=684243 m   Y=475732 m
  converted into UTM 
  decimal degrees this gives me, with the convertor I'm always using (and which 
  is IMO precise to 1 m):
  42,944401 and 
  -0,74292427
   
  However with your 
  Geocalculator I get:
  42,945485 and 
  -0,74172354
   
  The difference seems 
  trivial, but when converting this outcome back to UTM ED50 this 
  gives:
  X=684337,8 
  m   Y=4757443,9 m which is 94,8, resp 122,9 m 
  different from what I consider the "correct" 
  position.
   
  HTH
  Paul De 
  Biehttp://www.scavalon.behttp://scavalon.blogspot.comhttp://pollekepik.blogspot.com
  
   
  
     


Messsage #: 120
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 05:11:33 -0600
From: "Larry Fish" 
Subject: RE: RE: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features.

Dwight,

 On my machine, when the 3d Export window comes up, I find
 the export button is hidden. I have to stretch the window to
 see it. This caused some frustration until I happened upon
 it, then more because I didn;t realize what I had done.

Strange. The Export Button for the KML feature is higher on the page than
any of the other Export buttons. I can move it higher, but on the other
pages, there are boxes and controls that would get in the way, so you would
have trouble on those pages.

The windows size is set to 640x562, which should be fine on any Windows
display that is 800x600 or bigger. Are you running a small display?

 I was also a little disappointed that the KML was a
 projection on the surface, rather than a 3D object. Could
 that be an option in some way?

Actually, me too! Unfortunately, Google Earth doesn't offer any way to make
the ground transparent. If it did, I would put the full passage model
underground. In this case, the best I can do is to put the passage
"footprint" on top of the ground. It is not perfect, but it does give you an
indication of the relationship between the cave and terrain features.

Larry


Messsage #: 121
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 05:14:31 -0600
From: "Larry Fish" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features.

Paul,

I'm working on an answer to your questions, but I am very busy with work
this week, and it will take a while to do all the testing I need to do to
figure out what is going on with UTM/Long/Lat discrepancies. I'll try to
have some answers in the next couple of days.

Larry


Messsage #: 122
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 19:27:46 +0200
From: "Paul De Bie" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features.

Hi Larry,

take your time.

But meanwhile I've determined that is is, without doubt, the conversion which Compass does from
UTM/ED1950 tot Lat/Lon. 
I simply converted and entered the coordinates in one of my MAK files, which were originally in
UTM/ED1950, in UTM/WGS1984. 
Then Export with Compass to Google Earth. 
The resulting KML file is perfect. The calculated Lat/Lon coordinates are exact. It shows in Google
Earth exactly where it should be, with remarkable precision (so Google Earth ain't that bad :-) )

I guess the conversion routine you are using (or the Geocalculator) considers that the UTM
coordinates which are entered in the File Node fixed points, are in UTM/WGS1984. And in fact, in
this window, there is not even a combobox for selecting the Map Datum. There is just a checkbox "Use
UTM". 
I thought that setting the base location, determined the Map Datum for the whole MAK file? Because
there you do have that combobox. 

Unfortunately, here in Belgium, and also in Spain, the Map Datum that is used for UTM coordinates is
in European Datum 1950. There is a (slow) evolution towards WGS84 however. 

Meanwhile, I will make different versions of each MAK file: one with coordinates in UTM/ED50, one
(for Google EXport) in WGS84!

best regards

Paul De Bie
http://www.scavalon.be
http://scavalon.blogspot.com
http://pollekepik.blogspot.com

 -----Original Message-----
 From: [email protected] 
 [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Larry Fish
 Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2008 1:15 PM
 To: [email protected]
 Subject: RE: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google 
 Earth/KML features.
 
 Paul,
 
 I'm working on an answer to your questions, but I am very 
 busy with work this week, and it will take a while to do all 
 the testing I need to do to figure out what is going on with 
 UTM/Long/Lat discrepancies. I'll try to have some answers in 
 the next couple of days.
 
 Larry
 
 ------------------------------------
 
 Yahoo! Groups Links


Messsage #: 123
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 14:59:24 -0500 (CDT)
From: Dwight Livingston 
Subject: Re: RE: RE: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML
 features.

Larry

You might build them above ground, as in this example . . .

http://www.gearthblog.com/blog/archives/2007/11/large_hadron_collider_visible_in_go.html

I admit it is not as pleasing as seeing it below the surface. Just a thought.

As to the hidden button, I'll send you a screen shot and my system specs this evening.

Dwight

====================From: Larry Fish 
Date: 2008/07/22 Tue AM 07:11:33 EDT
Subject: RE: RE: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features.
                
Dwight,

 On my machine, when the 3d Export window comes up, I find
 the export button is hidden. I have to stretch the window to
 see it. This caused some frustration until I happened upon
 it, then more because I didn;t realize what I had done.

Strange. The Export Button for the KML feature is higher on the page than
any of the other Export buttons. I can move it higher, but on the other
pages, there are boxes and controls that would get in the way, so you would
have trouble on those pages.

The windows size is set to 640x562, which should be fine on any Windows
display that is 800x600 or bigger. Are you running a small display?

 I was also a little disappointed that the KML was a
 projection on the surface, rather than a 3D object. Could
 that be an option in some way?

Actually, me too! Unfortunately, Google Earth doesn't offer any way to make
the ground transparent. If it did, I would put the full passage model
underground. In this case, the best I can do is to put the passage
"footprint" on top of the ground. It is not perfect, but it does give you an
indication of the relationship between the cave and terrain features.

Larry


Messsage #: 124
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 15:21:08 -0500
From: "Aaron Addison" 
Subject: RE: RE: RE: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features.

Another option might be to leverage the "clamp to earth" setting in GE.
This would allow for the creation of a true 3D KML/KMZ file that GE
could interpret while also allow other programs that can deal with
subsurface display to also work.

Thoughts?

Aaron

________________________________

Aaron Addison

University GIS Coordinator 

Washington University in St. Louis

Campus Box 1169

One Brookings Drive

St. Louis, MO 63130-4899

314 935 6198 - office

[email protected]

________________________________

From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dwight Livingston
Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2008 2:59 PM
Subject: Re: RE: RE: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google
Earth/KML features.

Larry

You might build them above ground, as in this example . . .

http://www.gearthblog.com/blog/archives/2007/11/large_hadron_collider_vi
sible_in_go.html

I admit it is not as pleasing as seeing it below the surface. Just a
thought.

As to the hidden button, I'll send you a screen shot and my system specs
this evening.

Dwight

====================From: Larry Fish 
Date: 2008/07/22 Tue AM 07:11:33 EDT
 
Subject: RE: RE: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google
Earth/KML features.

Dwight,

 On my machine, when the 3d Export window comes up, I find
 the export button is hidden. I have to stretch the window to
 see it. This caused some frustration until I happened upon
 it, then more because I didn;t realize what I had done.

Strange. The Export Button for the KML feature is higher on the page
than
any of the other Export buttons. I can move it higher, but on the other
pages, there are boxes and controls that would get in the way, so you
would
have trouble on those pages.

The windows size is set to 640x562, which should be fine on any Windows
display that is 800x600 or bigger. Are you running a small display?

 I was also a little disappointed that the KML was a
 projection on the surface, rather than a 3D object. Could
 that be an option in some way?

Actually, me too! Unfortunately, Google Earth doesn't offer any way to
make
the ground transparent. If it did, I would put the full passage model
underground. In this case, the best I can do is to put the passage
"footprint" on top of the ground. It is not perfect, but it does give
you an
indication of the relationship between the cave and terrain features.

Larry

v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}

st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }


Messsage #: 125
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 09:45:11 +0000 (GMT)
From: miltos klidis 

Hello group,
This is amessage to anyone that has heard of Chris Docksey. He must have been in this group back in 2000. Can you olease help me locate him? e-mail , address, current work.... anything. Thank you
Miltos
      
___________________________________________________________ 
II?III1III?II1II_I,I Yahoo!; 
I'II?II,IrIII,I I,I IIIIIII,I1II IIII?III,I (spam); II Yahoo! Mail 
I'I1II,I-I,II1 I,II IIII?I,II?I I'I.III,Ir I?I?III,III_I III,I I,I%I IIIIIII,I1IIZI 
IIII.III,I%I http://login.yahoo.com/config/mail?.intl=gr 

Hello group,
This is amessage to anyone that has heard of Chris Docksey. He must have been in this group back in 2000. Can you olease help me locate him? e-mail , address, current work.... anything. Thank you
Miltos
       
II?III1III?II1II_I,I Yahoo! 
I'II?II,IrIII,I I,I IIIIIII,I1II IIII? III,I (spam); II Yahoo! Mail I'I1II,I-I,II1 I,II IIII?I,II?I I'I.III,Ir I?I?III,III_I III,I I,I%I IIIIIII,I1IIZI IIII.III,I%I  
http://login.yahoo.com/config/mail?.intl=gr 


Messsage #: 126
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 05:57:54 -0700 (PDT)
From: Bruce Trotter 
Subject: Need a hpgl 7475/7500 driver

Compass Users,
I use CorelDraw 5 as a drawing program for cave maps. On my old computer I had the HPGL7475 driver that outputted a file that I was able to import into CorelDraw. My computer crashed and I lost the driver and cannot find the driver anywhere. I have looked at HP's site as well as some other driver sites. The usual thing at most driver websites is that you sign up or pay and then when you go through all the trouble they tell you the driver is unavailable. Does anyone have that driver or know where I can get it? I would be most grateful. My CorelDraw still works just fine. I see no reason to buy Illustrator or any other new software.
Thanks for your help,
Bruce Trotter

Compass Users,
 
I use CorelDraw 5 as a drawing program for cave maps. On my old computer I had the HPGL7475 driver that outputted a file that I was able to import into CorelDraw. My computer crashed and I lost the driver and cannot find the driver anywhere. I have looked at HP's site as well as some other driver sites. The usual thing at most driver websites is that you sign up or pay and then when you go through all the trouble they tell you the driver is unavailable. Does anyone have that driver or know where I can get it? I would be most grateful. My CorelDraw still works just fine. I see no reason to buy Illustrator or any other new software.
 
Thanks for your help,
Bruce Trotter


Messsage #: 127
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 08:30:59 -0700
From: "Paul R. Jorgenson" 
Subject: Re: [compass-users] Need a hpgl 7475/7500 driver

Bruce,

If the HP 7000 series driver for Windows XP will work, it is available at HP.

http://h20000.www2.hp.com/bizsupport/TechSupport/DriverDownload.jsp?prodNameId=12725&lang=en&cc=us&prodTypeId=18972&prodSeriesId=25257&taskId=135

or search for "HP 7000".

================================  Paul R. Jorgenson KE7HR Phoenix, AZ
   NSS 39382FE - No caves to speak of.
================================  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Bruce Trotter 
  To: [email protected] 
  Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2008 5:57 AM
  Subject: [compass-users] Need a hpgl 7475/7500 driver

  Compass Users,

  I use CorelDraw 5 as a drawing program for cave maps. On my old computer I had the HPGL7475 driver that outputted a file that I was able to import into CorelDraw. My computer crashed and I lost the driver and cannot find the driver anywhere. I have looked at HP's site as well as some other driver sites. The usual thing at most driver websites is that you sign up or pay and then when you go through all the trouble they tell you the driver is unavailable. Does anyone have that driver or know where I can get it? I would be most grateful. My CorelDraw still works just fine. I see no reason to buy Illustrator or any other new software.

  Thanks for your help,
  Bruce Trotter

DIV {
	MARGIN: 0px
}

Bruce,
 
If the HP 7000 series driver for Windows XP will 
work, it is available at HP.
 
http://h20000.www2.hp.com/bizsupport/TechSupport/DriverDownload.jsp?prodNameId=12725&lang=en&cc=us&prodTypeId=18972&prodSeriesId=25257&taskId=135
 
or search for "HP 7000".
 
=================================  Paul R. Jorgenson KE7HR 
Phoenix, AZ   NSS 39382FE - No caves to speak 
of.================================
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: 
  Bruce Trotter 
  To: [email protected] 
  
  Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2008 5:57 
  AM
  Subject: [compass-users] Need a hpgl 
  7475/7500 driver
  
  Compass Users,
   
  I use CorelDraw 5 as a drawing program for cave maps. On my old computer 
  I had the HPGL7475 driver that outputted a file that I was able to import into 
  CorelDraw. My computer crashed and I lost the driver and cannot find the 
  driver anywhere. I have looked at HP's site as well as some other driver 
  sites. The usual thing at most driver websites is that you sign up or pay and 
  then when you go through all the trouble they tell you the driver is 
  unavailable. Does anyone have that driver or know where I can get it? I would 
  be most grateful. My CorelDraw still works just fine. I see no reason to buy 
  Illustrator or any other new software.
   
  Thanks for your help,
  Bruce Trotter 


Messsage #: 128
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 17:04:38 -0000
From: "Paul Jorgenson" 
Subject: Re: Need a hpgl 7475/7500 driver

If the driver method does not work, then you might consider the open 
source (free...) program Inkscape available at 
http://www.inkscape.org/ to work with.  Many people have been using 
it with success.

Paul KE7HR in Phoenix.

 wrote:

 Compass Users,
 I use CorelDraw 5 as a drawing program for cave maps. On my old 
computer I had the HPGL7475 driver that outputted a file that I was 
able to import into CorelDraw. My computer crashed and I lost the 
driver and cannot find the driver anywhere. I have looked at HP's 
site as well as some other driver sites. The usual thing at most 
driver websites is that you sign up or pay and then when you go 
through all the trouble they tell you the driver is unavailable. 
Does anyone have that driver or know where I can get it? I would be 
most grateful. My CorelDraw still works just fine. I see no reason 
to buy Illustrator or any other new software.
 Thanks for your help,
 Bruce Trotter


Messsage #: 129
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 20:45:12 +0200
From: Roger Schuster 
Subject: Re: [compass-users] Need a hpgl 7475/7500 driver

Hi Bruce,

Bruce Trotter schrieb:

 I use CorelDraw 5 as a drawing program for cave maps. On my old computer 
 I had the HPGL7475 driver that outputted a file that I was able to 
 import into CorelDraw. My computer crashed and I lost the driver and 
 cannot find the driver anywhere. 

Some years ago I was in the same situation as you. Newer versions of 
Windows than Win 98 don't have drivers for the old HP plotters on board. 
They are also no longer supported by HP. If you run a more recent 
Windows version now you must switch over to another vector graphics 
format to transfer your surveys from Compass to the drawing program.

Have you tested Windows Meta Files (File | Save Screen Images...)? You 
may also use a Postscript printer driver and print to a Postscript file.

 My CorelDraw still works 
 just fine. I see no reason to buy Illustrator or any other new software.

Yes, but on the other hand a less palaeolithic Corel Draw OEM release is 
rather cheap. I payed for my Corel 11 circa 12 EUR. It supports WMF and 
Postscript very well, so you don't need the latest version for drawing 
maps.

Roger


Messsage #: 130
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 15:50:12 -0600
From: "Larry Fish" 
Subject: New Version

Jim Coke just found a bug in the latest version of Compass that causes the
Viewer to leave out all the "Section Information". It was a result of the
changes I made to add the KML/Google Earth features. ("No good deed goes
unpunished.") There is a new version up on the internet that fixes the
problem.

Larry 


Messsage #: 131
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 05:41:28 -0700 (PDT)
From: Bruce Trotter 
Subject: Re: [compass-users] Need a hpgl 7475/7500 driver

Thank you Roger and Paul for the suggestions. Apparently the only drivers HP has are for 64 bit XP. I have Windows XP but the 32 bit version.
I didtry the File, Save Screen Images but the image was so bad that it would be difficult to draw a map.
Where do you get a postscript driver?
How does the new version of CorelDraw import the info from COMPASS? Does it has postscript drivers?
Thanks for the help,
Bruce

From: Roger Schuster 
Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2008 2:45:12 PM
Subject: Re: [compass-users] Need a hpgl 7475/7500 driver

Hi Bruce,

Bruce Trotter schrieb:

 I use CorelDraw 5 as a drawing program for cave maps. On my old computer 
 I had the HPGL7475 driver that outputted a file that I was able to 
 import into CorelDraw. My computer crashed and I lost the driver and 
 cannot find the driver anywhere. 

Some years ago I was in the same situation as you. Newer versions of 
Windows than Win 98 don't have drivers for the old HP plotters on board. 
They are also no longer supported by HP. If you run a more recent 
Windows version now you must switch over to another vector graphics 
format to transfer your surveys from Compass to the drawing program.

Have you tested Windows Meta Files (File | Save Screen Images...)? You 
may also use a Postscript printer driver and print to a Postscript file.

 My CorelDraw still works 
 just fine. I see no reason to buy Illustrator or any other new software.

Yes, but on the other hand a less palaeolithic Corel Draw OEM release is 
rather cheap. I payed for my Corel 11 circa 12 EUR. It supports WMF and 
Postscript very well, so you don't need the latest version for drawing 
maps.

Roger

Thank you Roger and Paul for the suggestions. Apparently the only drivers HP has are for 64 bit XP. I have Windows XP but the 32 bit version.
 
I did try the File, Save Screen Images but the image was so bad that it would be difficult to draw a map.
 
Where do you get a postscript driver?
 
How does the new version of CorelDraw import the info from COMPASS? Does it has postscript drivers?
 
Thanks for the help,
Bruce

----- Original Message ----From: Roger Schuster <[email protected]>To: [email protected]: Wednesday, July 30, 2008 2:45:12 PMSubject: Re: [compass-users] Need a hpgl 7475/7500 driver

Hi Bruce,Bruce Trotter schrieb:> I use CorelDraw 5 as a drawing program for cave maps. On my old computer > I had the HPGL7475 driver that outputted a file that I was able to > import into CorelDraw. My computer crashed and I lost the driver and > cannot find the driver anywhere. Some years ago I was in the same situation as you. Newer versions of Windows than Win 98 don't have drivers for the old HP plotters on board. They are also no longer supported by HP. If you run a more recent Windows version now you must switch over to another vector graphics format to transfer your surveys from Compass to the drawing program.Have you tested Windows Meta Files (File | Save Screen Images...)? You may also use a Postscript printer driver and print to a Postscript file.> My CorelDraw still works > just fine. I see no reason to buy Illustrator or any other new
 software.Yes, but on the other hand a less palaeolithic Corel Draw OEM release is rather cheap. I payed for my Corel 11 circa 12 EUR. It supports WMF and Postscript very well, so you don't need the latest version for drawing maps.Roger


Messsage #: 132
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 20:38:46 +0200
From: Roger Schuster 
Subject: Re: [compass-users] Need a hpgl 7475/7500 driver

Hi Bruce,

Bruce Trotter schrieb:

 Where do you get a postscript driver?

You can for example use the driver for the HP Color Laser Jet 5/5M PS 
from your Windows installation media. Apple Laserwriter and others will 
do the job also.

 How does the new version of CorelDraw import the info from COMPASS? Does 
 it has postscript drivers?

Corel hasn't any drivers. You can open the postscript or WMF file like a 
Corel Draw drawing with "File | Open" and the survey will be in scale 
perfectly. Do not use  "File | Import..."!

Roger


Messsage #: 133
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 20:58:21 +0200
From: Roger Schuster 
Subject: Adjusting scanned sketches

Hi cavers,

because we are talking about importing survey data into drawing 
applications like Corel Draw I will use the chance to ask a burning 
question.

While surveying a cave I sketch the survey shots, the passage walls and 
important content on paper. Later I scan the sketch and load the 
resulting bitmap as background layer in my drawing program. On top I 
load the data from Compass as vector graphics. Unfortunately the sketch 
is seldom as accurate as the survey data. There are always some minor 
errors and distortions. This makes it sometimes very hard to rotate and 
stretch the sketch to match it perfectly to the survey.

How do you solve this problem?

I know WinKarst can load scanned bitmaps and the user marks the stations 
on screen. WinKarst "morphs" the sketch accordingly to fit the positions 
on the bitmaps to the survey. But in my opinion the results aren't good. 
There is another application called "Carto" 
(http://www.psc-cavers.org/carto/) which does the same job. 
Unfortunately Cartos development stopped years ago and the software 
crashes very often. If you are lucky and the process runs to the end the 
results are rather good.

Are there other techniques which I may have missed?

Roger


Messsage #: 134
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 22:31:46 +0200
From: "Paul De Bie" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] Adjusting scanned sketches

Hi Roger,

you could check out Therion. I haven't tried it myself, but some cavers I know use it.
http://therion.speleo.sk/
Quite impressive. 
read Wookey's article to get the idea..
http://www.chaos.org.uk/survex/cp/CP33/CP33.pdf

Whatever you use... the sketch should more or less be realistic. 

Paul De Bie
http://www.scavalon.be
http://scavalon.blogspot.com
http://pollekepik.blogspot.com

 -----Original Message-----
 From: [email protected] 
 [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Roger Schuster
 Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2008 8:58 PM
 To: [email protected]
 Subject: [compass-users] Adjusting scanned sketches
 
 Hi cavers,
 
 because we are talking about importing survey data into 
 drawing applications like Corel Draw I will use the chance to 
 ask a burning question.
 
 While surveying a cave I sketch the survey shots, the passage 
 walls and important content on paper. Later I scan the sketch 
 and load the resulting bitmap as background layer in my 
 drawing program. On top I load the data from Compass as 
 vector graphics. Unfortunately the sketch is seldom as 
 accurate as the survey data. There are always some minor 
 errors and distortions. This makes it sometimes very hard to 
 rotate and stretch the sketch to match it perfectly to the survey.
 
 How do you solve this problem?
 
 I know WinKarst can load scanned bitmaps and the user marks 
 the stations on screen. WinKarst "morphs" the sketch 
 accordingly to fit the positions on the bitmaps to the 
 survey. But in my opinion the results aren't good. 
 There is another application called "Carto" 
 (http://www.psc-cavers.org/carto/) which does the same job. 
 Unfortunately Cartos development stopped years ago and the 
 software crashes very often. If you are lucky and the process 
 runs to the end the results are rather good.
 
 Are there other techniques which I may have missed?
 
 Roger
 
 ------------------------------------
 
 Yahoo! Groups Links


Messsage #: 135
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2008 02:47:18 -0600
From: "Larry Fish" 
Subject: KML Coordinates

Paul,

I have finally had a chance to spend some time looking at the coordinate
conversion issues that you brought up last week. It took me a while to
figure out what was going because the topic is complicated and the
terminology varies across the field.

My basic problem was that I didn't understand the difference between
"Geodetic" and "Geocentric" coordinates. I had originally assumed that the
Longitude/Latitude coordinates were absolute and weren't affected by the
Datums and the shape of the earth because they could be measured using stars
and a clock. I now realize that this only applies to "Geocentric"
coordinates. What we are calculating are "Geodetic" coordinates, which are
affected by the shape of the earth.

When the Compass Geo-calculator converts UTM to Longitude and Latitude, it
does so for the specified Datum. In other words, if you convert a UTM
coordinate with ED1950, the Longitude Latitude will also be ED1950. To use
the data with Google Earth, which uses WGS84, a second step has to be taken
to convert the Long/Lat from ED1950 to WGS84. The Compass Geo-calculator
will do the conversion; it just requires the second step. You actually
touched on it when you asked this question:

 (NB: A question: what is the "Enable Datum Conversion"  checkbox on the
Geocalculator for? )

When you convert UTM to Long/Lat and vice versa, the conversion assumes that
both the input and output coordinates will be in the specified datum. If you
enable the "Enable Datum Conversion" option and then change the datum, the
program will convert the currently displayed coordinates from the old datum
to the new datum. Both Long/Lat and UTM are converted at the same time.

Now, back to your coordinates: If I go to the online converter you suggested
(http://www.gps2cad.com/coordtrans/coordconvert.aspx) and convert your
coordinates (X = 684243 m and Y = 4757321 m), I get the following values for
ED1950 and WGS84 output:

ED1950 -0.7417 42.9455
WGS84  -0.7429 42.9444

If I do the same thing in Compass, I get the following values:

ED1950 -0.7417235438 42.9454850016
WGS84  -0.7429379758 42.9443933002

The difference is that I have to do the Datum conversion as a second step,
by enabling the "Enable Datum Conversion" option and then switching to
WGS84. (Your online converter does both steps at once, which confused me,
because every other converter I had seen didn't change the output Datum. In
fact, they all just allow you to select one Datum.)

So the problem with the KML converter was that it didn't do the second step.
As a result of all this, I have added the Datum Conversion to the KML export
feature.

To test the conversion, I looked at station AN6 in your data. Your MAK files
show the following UTM coordinates for AN6:

AN6     = 684254.4 4757405.4 

(I was surprised that I couldn't find the coordinates that you sent in your
email in the MAK file.) Converting these values in Compass to Long/Lat gives
the following values:

ED1950  = -0.7415561445 42.9462416677
WGS84   = -0.7427701786 42.9451503535

Those values agree with the online calculator:

          -0.7428      42.9452

Looking in Google Earth, I see that AN6 is located at:

AN6     = -0.742757 42.945148

That appears to be within a few meters of where it should be.

I have posted a new version on the internet. Check it out let me know what
you think.

Also, thank you very much for the feedback. It really allows me to refine
issues like this and improve the performance of Compass.

Larry


Messsage #: 136
Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2008 13:48:50 +0200
From: Roger Schuster 
Subject: Re: [compass-users] Adjusting scanned sketches

Hi there,

Paul De Bie schrieb:

 you could check out Therion. I haven't tried it myself, but some cavers I know use it.
 http://therion.speleo.sk/

I tested Therion for a long time (my first exercises two years ago). As 
an integrated software package (data processing *and* map drawing) it 
has some powerful features but I never got "warm" with it. The results 
don't match my taste. The maps are looking too "machine generated".

 Whatever you use... the sketch should more or less be realistic. 

Yes of course - a completely free-hand drawn sketch would be a problem 
for any kind of post processing.

But back to my original question: How do you cavers handle the problem 
with (slightly) distorted sketches?

Roger


Messsage #: 137
Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2008 09:53:16 -0400
From: Christian Chenier 
Subject: Re: [compass-users] Adjusting scanned sketches

At 07:48 AM 03/08/2008, you wrote:

But back to my original question: How do you cavers handle the problem
with (slightly) distorted sketches?

Just move, rotate and resize the scanned sketch 
to match the line plot. If you were careful 
drawing to scale (with a protractor, the Therion 
Protractor (nothing to do with the Therion 
software) or using Auriga's coordinates), you 
should get most survey stations ok and will only 
require moving the sketch occasionally.

Of course, if you don't draw with the tools 
mentioned above (ie. you don't draw to scale), 
then it does become tedious (and the quality is questionable).

Chris

Christian Chnier
Gatineau (Qubec), Canada
(819) 772-8824 


Messsage #: 138
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 06:05:38 -0700 (PDT)
From: Bruce Trotter 
Subject: Re: [compass-users] Need a hpgl 7475/7500 driver

Roger,
I thought I should post a follow-up to my earlier question. I downloaded a trial version of CorelDraw and installed the driver for printing to a postscript file. The new CorelDraw brings it in like a charm.
Now, I think I can get by buying an upgrade version of CorelDraw. It looks like I will buy the latest version since I am unsure whether and older copy of CorelDraw will do what I want.
Thanks for your help,
Bruce

From: Roger Schuster 
Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2008 2:38:46 PM
Subject: Re: [compass-users] Need a hpgl 7475/7500 driver

Hi Bruce,

Bruce Trotter schrieb:

 Where do you get a postscript driver?

You can for example use the driver for the HP Color Laser Jet 5/5M PS 
from your Windows installation media. Apple Laserwriter and others will 
do the job also.

 How does the new version of CorelDraw import the info from COMPASS? Does 
 it has postscript drivers?

Corel hasn't any drivers. You can open the postscript or WMF file like a 
Corel Draw drawing with "File | Open" and the survey will be in scale 
perfectly. Do not use "File | Import..."!

Roger

Roger,
 
I thought I should post a follow-up to my earlier question. I downloaded a trial version of CorelDraw and installed the driver for printing to a postscript file. The new CorelDraw brings it in like a charm.
 
Now, I think I can get by buying an upgrade version of CorelDraw. It looks like I will buy the latest version since I am unsure whether and older copy of CorelDraw will do what I want.
 
Thanks for your help,
Bruce

----- Original Message ----From: Roger Schuster <[email protected]>To: [email protected]: Thursday, July 31, 2008 2:38:46 PMSubject: Re: [compass-users] Need a hpgl 7475/7500 driver

Hi Bruce,Bruce Trotter schrieb:> Where do you get a postscript driver?You can for example use the driver for the HP Color Laser Jet 5/5M PS from your Windows installation media. Apple Laserwriter and others will do the job also.> How does the new version of CorelDraw import the info from COMPASS? Does > it has postscript drivers?Corel hasn't any drivers. You can open the postscript or WMF file like a Corel Draw drawing with "File | Open" and the survey will be in scale perfectly. Do not use "File | Import..."!Roger


Messsage #: 139
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 10:38:36 +0200
From: "Paul De Bie" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] KML Coordinates

HI Larry,

just got back from a 3 week caving expe in Spain. 
I will study your answer one of these days when things get organized around here, but it looks as if
you have fixed the problem.
As always, thanks a lot for your very detailed answer. 
Meanwhile, the KML export function has been proven to be very useful to me!

best regards

Paul De Bie
http://www.scavalon.be
http://scavalon.blogspot.com
http://pollekepik.blogspot.com

 -----Original Message-----
 From: [email protected] 
 [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Larry Fish
 Sent: Friday, August 01, 2008 10:47 AM
 To: [email protected]
 Subject: [compass-users] KML Coordinates
 
 Paul,
 
 I have finally had a chance to spend some time looking at the 
 coordinate conversion issues that you brought up last week. 
 It took me a while to figure out what was going because the 
 topic is complicated and the terminology varies across the field.
 
 My basic problem was that I didn't understand the difference 
 between "Geodetic" and "Geocentric" coordinates. I had 
 originally assumed that the Longitude/Latitude coordinates 
 were absolute and weren't affected by the Datums and the 
 shape of the earth because they could be measured using stars 
 and a clock. I now realize that this only applies to "Geocentric"
 coordinates. What we are calculating are "Geodetic" 
 coordinates, which are affected by the shape of the earth.
 
 When the Compass Geo-calculator converts UTM to Longitude and 
 Latitude, it does so for the specified Datum. In other words, 
 if you convert a UTM coordinate with ED1950, the Longitude 
 Latitude will also be ED1950. To use the data with Google 
 Earth, which uses WGS84, a second step has to be taken to 
 convert the Long/Lat from ED1950 to WGS84. The Compass 
 Geo-calculator will do the conversion; it just requires the 
 second step. You actually touched on it when you asked this question:
 
  (NB: A question: what is the "Enable Datum Conversion"  
 checkbox on 
  the
 Geocalculator for? )
 
 When you convert UTM to Long/Lat and vice versa, the 
 conversion assumes that both the input and output coordinates 
 will be in the specified datum. If you enable the "Enable 
 Datum Conversion" option and then change the datum, the 
 program will convert the currently displayed coordinates from 
 the old datum to the new datum. Both Long/Lat and UTM are 
 converted at the same time.
 
 Now, back to your coordinates: If I go to the online 
 converter you suggested
 (http://www.gps2cad.com/coordtrans/coordconvert.aspx) and 
 convert your coordinates (X = 684243 m and Y = 4757321 m), I 
 get the following values for ED1950 and WGS84 output:
 
 ED1950 -0.7417 42.9455
 WGS84  -0.7429 42.9444
 
 If I do the same thing in Compass, I get the following values:
 
 ED1950 -0.7417235438 42.9454850016
 WGS84  -0.7429379758 42.9443933002
 
 The difference is that I have to do the Datum conversion as a 
 second step, by enabling the "Enable Datum Conversion" option 
 and then switching to WGS84. (Your online converter does both 
 steps at once, which confused me, because every other 
 converter I had seen didn't change the output Datum. In fact, 
 they all just allow you to select one Datum.)
 
 So the problem with the KML converter was that it didn't do 
 the second step.
 As a result of all this, I have added the Datum Conversion to 
 the KML export feature.
 
 To test the conversion, I looked at station AN6 in your data. 
 Your MAK files show the following UTM coordinates for AN6:
 
 AN6     = 684254.4 4757405.4 
 
 (I was surprised that I couldn't find the coordinates that 
 you sent in your email in the MAK file.) Converting these 
 values in Compass to Long/Lat gives the following values:
 
 ED1950  = -0.7415561445 42.9462416677
 WGS84   = -0.7427701786 42.9451503535
 
 Those values agree with the online calculator:
 
           -0.7428      42.9452
 
 Looking in Google Earth, I see that AN6 is located at:
 
 AN6     = -0.742757 42.945148
 
 That appears to be within a few meters of where it should be.
 
 I have posted a new version on the internet. Check it out let 
 me know what you think.
 
 Also, thank you very much for the feedback. It really allows 
 me to refine issues like this and improve the performance of Compass.
 
 Larry
 
 ------------------------------------
 
 Yahoo! Groups Links


Messsage #: 140
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 22:50:25 -0600
From: "Larry Fish" 
Subject: Windows dpi

Hi Everybody,

Several people have mentioned problems with the position of buttons and
other objects on the Compass screens. At first, I couldn't find any of the
problems. All my screens looked just fine. I finally tracked the problems
down to the "Windows-DPI-settings." Windows normally comes set to 96 dot per
inch (dpi), but you can also set it to 120 or other custom values. I tested
Compass at 120 dpi and suddenly saw several places in Compass where there
were problems.

I have modified all the Compass programs to do a better job handling other
DPI values. There is a new version of Compass on the internet. 

If any of you see other problems with the screen layout, let me know. I went
through all the programs looking for problems, but it is possible I missed
something.

I want to thank everybody for the helpful feedback on Compass. It really
helps me find and solve problem that I would otherwise miss.

Larry


Messsage #: 141
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 21:56:44 +0200
From: "Paul De Bie" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] Windows dpi

Hi Larry,

- The Viewer: Find Survey/Station Dialog window: the checkbox "Leave Highlights on" does not move
when resizing the dialog

- The Viewer: Complex plotting, Color Surveys: it would sure help a lot if the dialog would be
resizeable, because the grid (browser) in which to select the surveys, is really very small when you
have a cave with say 100 surveys or more. Also I'm missing badly an easy way to select several
surveys at once (standard Windows Shift-click and Ctrl-Click or Ctrl-A would be great)

The Project manager: 

- Edit File Node, Linked Stations: also a very small quite unworkable grid (I have projects with 50
fixed stations or so). Would like to see this resizeable too. 

That's it!

regards

Paul De Bie
http://www.scavalon.be
http://scavalon.blogspot.com
http://pollekepik.blogspot.com

 -----Original Message-----
 From: [email protected] 
 [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Larry Fish
 
 If any of you see other problems with the screen layout, let 
 me know. I went through all the programs looking for 
 problems, but it is possible I missed something.


Messsage #: 142
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 02:38:03 -0600
From: "Larry Fish" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] Windows dpi

Paul,

Thanks for all the suggestions. I was aware of most of them but they just
hadn't hit the top of my list.

I was able to do almost everything you wanted. All the dialogs expand and
the grids expand with them so more data is visible. In the Complex dialog, I
allowed the "Extents" plot windows to expand with the dialog box, which
should make it easier to see and set the limits. Also, the columns in the
"Edit File Node" dialog can be adjusted to make the data easier to see.

I cleaned up the Shift-feature in the two grids in the Complex dialog, so it
works better and is not so touchy. I wasn't able to add the Control and
Control-A options you wanted. The underlying control does not support
selecting individual rows. It will support selecting one range of rows. In
other words, you cannot select every other row. This makes the
Control-features impossible to do.

In order to allow for individual rows to be selected, I would need to switch
to a different control. Because, I am doing a lot of "Custom" drawing in the
cells, it would take quite a bit of work to get it done, and I don't' have
time right now to do that. It will have to wait until I have more time.

There is a new version on the internet. Let me know what you think.

Larry

  _____  

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Paul De Bie
Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2008 1:57 PM
Subject: RE: [compass-users] Windows dpi

Hi Larry,

- The Viewer: Find Survey/Station Dialog window: the checkbox "Leave
Highlights on" does not move
when resizing the dialog

- The Viewer: Complex plotting, Color Surveys: it would sure help a lot if
the dialog would be
resizeable, because the grid (browser) in which to select the surveys, is
really very small when you
have a cave with say 100 surveys or more. Also I'm missing badly an easy way
to select several
surveys at once (standard Windows Shift-click and Ctrl-Click or Ctrl-A would
be great)

The Project manager: 

- Edit File Node, Linked Stations: also a very small quite unworkable grid
(I have projects with 50
fixed stations or so). Would like to see this resizeable too. 

That's it!

regards

Paul De Bie
http://www.scavalon  .be
http://scavalon.  blogspot.com
http://pollekepik.  blogspot.com

 -----Original Message-----
 From: [email protected] 
yahoogroups.com 
 [mailto:[email protected] 
yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Larry Fish
 
 If any of you see other problems with the screen layout, let 
 me know. I went through all the programs looking for 
 problems, but it is possible I missed something.

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Messsage #: 143
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 19:28:05 +0200
From: "Paul De Bie" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] Windows dpi

Hi Larry,
 
as always, great job! No problem, the shift-click already helps a lot. 
 
Another question: the help file is not clear about the maximum length of a survey name. At one place
it says 12 characters. At another place it says 8 (in the Technical description of the DAT layout).
However I can perfectly enter a surveyname that is 16 (or more) chars long. Compass will save the
file, compile it and does not seem to truncate the extra characters. 
Can you tell me what is the real maximum lenght? It is important for me to know because I'm writing
a Toporobot to Compass converter. 
 
Also, in the Editor: when entering a survey name with a space in it, Compass will accept this and
save the file. 
However, if you reopen the file, the surveyname will be truncated. Maybe you could build in a
warning? 
 
regards

Paul De Bie
http://www.scavalon.be  
http://scavalon.blogspot.com  
http://pollekepik.blogspot.com  

  _____  

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Larry Fish
Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2008 10:38 AM
Subject: RE: [compass-users] Windows dpi

Paul,

Thanks for all the suggestions. I was aware of most of them but they just hadn't hit the top of my
list.

I was able to do almost everything you wanted. All the dialogs expand and the grids expand with them
so more data is visible. In the Complex dialog, I allowed the "Extents" plot windows to expand with
the dialog box, which should make it easier to see and set the limits. Also, the columns in the
"Edit File Node" dialog can be adjusted to make the data easier to see.

I cleaned up the Shift-feature in the two grids in the Complex dialog, so it works better and is not
so touchy. I wasn't able to add the Control and Control-A options you wanted. The underlying control
does not support selecting individual rows. It will support selecting one range of rows. In other
words, you cannot select every other row. This makes the Control-features impossible to do.

In order to allow for individual rows to be selected, I would need to switch to a different control.
Because, I am doing a lot of "Custom" drawing in the cells, it would take quite a bit of work to get
it done, and I don't' have time right now to do that. It will have to wait until I have more time.

There is a new version on the internet. Let me know what you think.

Larry

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Hi 
Larry,
 
as always, great job! No problem, the shift-click already helps a lot. 

 
Another question: the help 
file is not clear about the maximum length of a survey name. At one place it 
says 12 characters. At another place it says 8 (in the Technical description of 
the DAT layout).
However I can perfectly 
enter a surveyname that is 16 (or more) chars long. Compass will save the file, 
compile it and does not seem to truncate the extra characters. 

Can you tell me what is the 
real maximum lenght? It is important for me to know because I'm writing a 
Toporobot to Compass converter. 
 
Also, in the Editor: when 
entering a survey name with a space in it, Compass will accept this and save the 
file. 
However, if you reopen the 
file, the surveyname will be truncated. Maybe you could build in a warning?
 
regards
Paul De Biehttp://www.scavalon.behttp://scavalon.blogspot.comhttp://pollekepik.blogspot.com
 
  
  From: [email protected] 
  [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Larry 
  FishSent: Sunday, September 07, 2008 10:38 AMTo: 
  [email protected]: RE: [compass-users] Windows 
  dpi
  
  Paul,
   
  Thanks for all the 
  suggestions. I was aware of most of them but they just hadn’t hit the top of 
  my list.
   
  I was able to do 
  almost everything you wanted. All the dialogs expand and the grids expand with 
  them so more data is visible. In the Complex dialog, I allowed the “Extents” 
  plot windows to expand with the dialog box, which should make it easier to see 
  and set the limits. Also, the columns in the “Edit File Node” dialog can be 
  adjusted to make the data easier to see.
   
  I cleaned up the 
  Shift-feature in the two grids in the Complex dialog, so it works better and 
  is not so touchy. I wasn’t able to add the Control and Control-A options you 
  wanted. The underlying control does not support selecting individual rows. It 
  will support selecting one range of rows. In other words, you cannot select 
  every other row. This makes the Control-features impossible to 
  do.
   
  In order to allow for 
  individual rows to be selected, I would need to switch to a different control. 
  Because, I am doing a lot of “Custom” drawing in the cells, it would take 
  quite a bit of work to get it done, and I don’t’ have time right now to do 
  that. It will have to wait until I have more 
time.
   
  There is a new 
  version on the internet. Let me know what you 
  think.
   
  Larry
    


Messsage #: 144
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 14:48:48 -0600
From: "Larry Fish" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] Windows dpi

Paul,

 Another question: the help file is not clear about the
 maximum length of a survey name. At one place it says 12
 characters. At another place it says 8 (in the Technical
 description of the DAT layout). 

The specified maximum is 12 characters. This used to be hard and fast
because all the string variables were set to be exactly this size and so the
names were automatically truncated to that length. However, many of the
string variables have been converted to dynamic variables whose size can
expand at will. The result is that in some places you can get away with
using more characters, but I wouldn't count on it. There will still be
places where the 12-character limit will apply and the name will be
truncated. 

 Also, in the Editor: when entering a survey name with a
 space in it, Compass will accept this and save the file.
 However, if you reopen the file, the surveyname will be
 truncated. Maybe you could build in a warning? 

I have added a warning and the spaces are now removed immediately so you can
see what it looks like. The testing only occurs when then the user moves
away from the grid cell or does something else that indicates that he/she
has finished entering a name. For example, the message will be displayed
when you go to save the file.

There is a new version on the Internet.

Larry


Messsage #: 145
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 20:52:13 +0200
From: "Paul De Bie" 
Subject: Topo converter v2.0 is out

Dear all,

I would like to present version 2 of my survey converter. It is the first time that it is available
in English language. 

You can download it here (costs nothing):
http://www.scavalon.be/avalonuk/software/convert.htm

Please read the manual before using the tool, otherwise you might be disappointed... converting
survey files from one format into another is something that needs some explanation and preparation.
And remember input = output. You put a bad survey in, you'll get a bad survey out. 

It is based around a special but simple plain text format that I have been using for many years now,
to manage surveys of quite big and complex cave systems. I called it the "Avalon Text Format". You
are not obliged to use this format (though I recommend it; see the manual for my arguments) but the
converter will use it as an intermediate format anyhow. E,g. to go from Visual Topo "TRO" files to
Compass "DAT" files you first do a TRO-TXT conversion, then TXT-DAT. 

New in this version is the possibility to read Toporobot TAB files. It is one of the few converters
that can handle such files, and possibly the first "bridge" to go from Toporobot to Compass. It
might open new worlds for some people who have such files. 
I had to work with some Toporobot files I received from friends of mine. The file format was poorly
documented which meant some guessing and trial-and-error work. I hope I got everything covered...but
I have to admit that I'm not even sure if it will convert everything. Has the fileformat changed
recently? Latest Toporobot version is 9.1.7 and I don't even know if the files I've got are version
8 or 9. Well give me some feedback, if it doesn't work! Example given: I just found out about
"Topofil" lengths, I haven't covered this yet so it won't work.

What conversions are supported now: 

Compass DAT - Avalon TXT
Toporobot TAB - Avalon TXT
Visual Topo TRO - Avalon TXT
Avalon TXT - Compass DAT
Compass DAT - Onstation CDI (Old stuff, I know, but still fun to play with)

Once you have your data in Compass DAT, you can easily go to other formats because a lot of other
cave surveying programs can read/import native DAT files. 

If you come across bugs or errors, please let me know.

I'm leaving on a 10 day caving expedition tomorrow, so I won't be able to follow up rapidly on
whatever you might suggest or find. 

Happy surveying.

Paul De Bie
http://www.scavalon.be
http://scavalon.blogspot.com
http://pollekepik.blogspot.com


Messsage #: 146
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 22:48:14 -0000
From: "hkalnitz" 
Subject: Geo Coordinates for .plt file

Folks
I have an old plt file sent to me many years ago by someone who has
subsequently lost the .dat file.
Originally I thought 'great, all I need is the .plt to generate a
shapefile'. Except, as far as I can tell the only way to give it
coordinates is in the edit file node option of the program manager
with the .mak file

I have looked through the .plt fles to see if I can insert the
coordinates, but I can't seem to find them in there. Is there an easy
way to assign coordinates to a .plt so I can make a shape file?

Howard Kalnitz


Messsage #: 147
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 19:46:30 -0600
From: "Larry Fish" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] Geo Coordinates for .plt file

Howard,

Thanks for your question

  I have looked through the .plt fles to see if I can insert

 the coordinates, but I can't seem to find them in there. Is

 there an easy way to assign coordinates to a .plt so I can

 make a shape file?

Unfortunately, the coordinates are not in a separate section of the PLT
file. They are added to the coordinates in the file. For example, here is a
line from a Geo-Referenced copy of the Fulford data:

D 14345899.43 1173614.32 9989.79 SA2 P 8.0 0.0 2.1 2.7 I 21.8

The first three numerical values are north, east and vertical. As you can
see, they are very large numbers which represent the UTM coordinates in
feet. In other words, they are the distance to the equator, the prime
meridian and the sea level. In order to do this with your file, you would
need to add the coordinates to the North, East and Vertical for every
station in the file. If the cave is very large it would be very tedious.

Another option is to have ArcView or whatever ESRI program you are using do
it. I'm not an expert on ESRI programs, but I think I have read that there
is a way to Geo-Reference objects that have been loaded into one of their
programs. I don't know how to do it myself, but if you read through the ESRI
help files I'm sure there is something.

Larry

  _____  

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of hkalnitz
Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2008 4:48 PM
Subject: [compass-users] Geo Coordinates for .plt file

Folks
I have an old plt file sent to me many years ago by someone who has
subsequently lost the .dat file.
Originally I thought 'great, all I need is the .plt to generate a
shapefile'. Except, as far as I can tell the only way to give it
coordinates is in the edit file node option of the program manager
with the .mak file

I have looked through the .plt fles to see if I can insert the
coordinates, but I can't seem to find them in there. Is there an easy
way to assign coordinates to a .plt so I can make a shape file?

Howard Kalnitz

v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}


Messsage #: 148
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 13:49:00 +0100
From: "Paul De Bie" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] Geo Coordinates for .plt file

another way to do this:

- read in the PLT file in Visual Topo (French surveying program that supports PLT files (but not DAT
files!)
Google for it, it is a free program
- Save as Visual Topo (TRO)
- convert the Visual Topo file to Compass using my convertor: 
http://www.scavalon.be/avalonuk/software/convert.htm

THis will not bring you back the original coordinates, but at least you will have the DAT file back

Paul De Bie
http://www.scavalon.be
http://scavalon.blogspot.com
http://pollekepik.blogspot.com

 -----Original Message-----
 From: [email protected] 
 [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of hkalnitz
 Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2008 11:48 PM
 To: [email protected]
 Subject: [compass-users] Geo Coordinates for .plt file
 
 Folks
 I have an old plt file sent to me many years ago by someone 
 who has subsequently lost the .dat file.
 Originally I thought 'great, all I need is the .plt to 
 generate a shapefile'. Except, as far as I can tell the only 
 way to give it coordinates is in the edit file node option of 
 the program manager with the .mak file
 
 I have looked through the .plt fles to see if I can insert 
 the coordinates, but I can't seem to find them in there. Is 
 there an easy way to assign coordinates to a .plt so I can 
 make a shape file?
 
 Howard Kalnitz
 
 ------------------------------------
 
 Yahoo! Groups Links


Messsage #: 149
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 14:06:22 -0000
From: "ericmweaver2003" 
Subject: Re: Geo Coordinates for .plt file

Howard,
It is relatively uncomplicated to geo-reference a shapefile in ArcGIS.
You just need to go to the georeferencing toolbar and then establish
control points. Unfortunately, the only control point you have is the
entrance. I believe that three control points is really the
recommended number. Not completely certain that this really matters
with vectors as much as it does with rasters.If I have time I will
test this out to see the difference. If Paul's program does get your
data back, it obviously is the best option.

Paul,
I found VisualTopo in several different languages, but not in
English(although the site indicates there is an English version, I
think).Do you have a direct link that I could access it with?


Messsage #: 150
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 16:10:58 +0100
From: "Paul De Bie" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] Re: Geo Coordinates for .plt file

Hi,

http://vtopo.free.fr/vtopo502.exe

Once installed, you can go into Preferences, Langue and change the language in English.

I just saw that the author relased a new version. I haven't looked at the changes in the dataformat
yet, so I can't guarentee for 100% that my converter will work OK. But I just tried the exercise
(from a PLT tot TRO, then converting to compass) and it works.

good luck

Paul De Bie
http://www.scavalon.be
http://scavalon.blogspot.com
http://pollekepik.blogspot.com

 -----Original Message-----
 From: [email protected] 
 [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of ericmweaver2003
 Sent: Friday, October 31, 2008 3:06 PM
 To: [email protected]
 Subject: [compass-users] Re: Geo Coordinates for .plt file
 
 Howard,
 It is relatively uncomplicated to geo-reference a shapefile in ArcGIS.
 You just need to go to the georeferencing toolbar and then 
 establish control points. Unfortunately, the only control 
 point you have is the entrance. I believe that three control 
 points is really the recommended number. Not completely 
 certain that this really matters with vectors as much as it 
 does with rasters.If I have time I will test this out to see 
 the difference. If Paul's program does get your data back, it 
 obviously is the best option.
 
 Paul,
 I found VisualTopo in several different languages, but not in 
 English(although the site indicates there is an English 
 version, I think).Do you have a direct link that I could 
 access it with?
 
 ------------------------------------
 
 Yahoo! Groups Links


Messsage #: 151
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 18:50:14 +0100
From: "Paul De Bie" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features.

  _____  

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Larry Fish
Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 6:36 AM
Subject: RE: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features.

3. I don't really have an idea about what is causing the problem where your settings are lost when
you install a new version. The default information is saved in these three files: comp32.ini,
cavevw32.ini and CaveEd32.ini. They are normally stored in the Windows directory on your computer.
They don't get overwritten when a new copy of Compass is installed, so I'm not sure how the setting
could be changed. (You can make copies of these files and restore them if the settings unexpectedly
change.)

It is possible that you have more than one copy of the files. Windows will always take a local copy
over the one that is in the Windows directory. The problem could occur if you have installed Compass
in a non-standard directory and the "INI" files are in that directory. If you installed a new
version in the Standard Directory, it would supersede the old version and the "INI" files would
switch to the Windows directory and you'd lose all your old settings. That is the only explanation
that I can find for the problem.

Let me know what you think.

Larry

Hi Larry, 
 
remember this issue? 
 
I now saw that there are several versions of the INI files on my PC.
I've checked this on 2 other Windows XP computers with Compass and they have exactly the same
problem. 
 
So there is one set of (3) INI files in c:\windows, but there is also a set of 3 in the userprofile:
c:\documents and settings\paul\application data\compass
 
Maybe you could check this out because it is definitely not OK...
 
TIA

Paul De Bie
http://www.scavalon.be  
http://scavalon.blogspot.com  
http://pollekepik.blogspot.com  

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  From: [email protected] 
  [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Larry 
  FishSent: Monday, July 21, 2008 6:36 AMTo: 
  [email protected]: RE: [compass-users] New 
  Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features.
  
  3. I don't really 
  have an idea about what is causing the problem where your settings are lost 
  when you install a new version. The default information is saved in these 
  three files: comp32.ini, cavevw32.ini and CaveEd32.ini. They are normally 
  stored in the Windows directory on your computer. They don't get overwritten 
  when a new copy of Compass is installed, so I'm not sure how the setting could 
  be changed. (You can make copies of these files and restore them if the 
  settings unexpectedly change.)
   
  It is possible that 
  you have more than one copy of the files. Windows will always take a local 
  copy over the one that is in the Windows directory. The problem could occur if 
  you have installed Compass in a non-standard directory and the "INI" files are 
  in that directory. If you installed a new version in the Standard Directory, 
  it would supersede the old version and the "INI" files would switch to the 
  Windows directory and you’d lose all your old settings. That is the only 
  explanation that I can find for the problem.
   
  Let me know what you 
  think.
   
  Larry
   
   
  Hi Larry, 
   
  remember this issue? 
   
  I 
  now saw that there are several versions of the INI files on my 
  PC.
  I've checked this on 2 other Windows XP computers with Compass 
  and they have exactly the same problem. 
   
  So 
  there is one set of (3) INI files in c:\windows, but there is also a set of 3 
  in the userprofile: c:\documents and settings\paul\application 
  data\compass
   
  Maybe you could check this out because it is definitely not 
  OK...
   
  TIA
   http://pollekepik.blogspot.com


Messsage #: 152
Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2008 17:10:36 -0000
From: "hkalnitz" 
Subject: Re: Geo Coordinates for .plt file

Paul
Thanks, this did exactly what I needed, and allowed me to get the 
file back into .DAT format
The hardest part was understanding the French installer!
Howard

 wrote:

 Hi,
 
 http://vtopo.free.fr/vtopo502.exe
 
 Once installed, you can go into Preferences, Langue and change the 
language in English.
 
 I just saw that the author relased a new version. I haven't looked 
at the changes in the dataformat
 yet, so I can't guarentee for 100% that my converter will work OK. 
But I just tried the exercise
 (from a PLT tot TRO, then converting to compass) and it works.
 
 good luck
 
 Paul De Bie
 http://www.scavalon.be
 http://scavalon.blogspot.com
 http://pollekepik.blogspot.com
 
  -----Original Message-----
  From: [email protected] 
  [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of 
ericmweaver2003
  Sent: Friday, October 31, 2008 3:06 PM
  To: [email protected]
  Subject: [compass-users] Re: Geo Coordinates for .plt file
  
  Howard,
  It is relatively uncomplicated to geo-reference a shapefile in 
ArcGIS.
  You just need to go to the georeferencing toolbar and then 
  establish control points. Unfortunately, the only control 
  point you have is the entrance. I believe that three control 
  points is really the recommended number. Not completely 
  certain that this really matters with vectors as much as it 
  does with rasters.If I have time I will test this out to see 
  the difference. If Paul's program does get your data back, it 
  obviously is the best option.
  
  Paul,
  I found VisualTopo in several different languages, but not in 
  English(although the site indicates there is an English 
  version, I think).Do you have a direct link that I could 
  access it with?
  
  ------------------------------------
  
  Yahoo! Groups Links


Messsage #: 153
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 14:26:18 -0700
From: "Larry Fish" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features.

Paul,

Thanks for your email. I spent quite a bit of time looking at your problem
and I have some ideas, but I'm not completely sure what is going on. It is
also pretty complicated. Here are some of the things I figured out:

1. WHERE TO PUT INI FILES. When Vista came out, I discovered a problem with
where I had been putting the INI files. In Win98 you are supposed to put
them in the "Windows" directory. Under NT/XP/Vista, you can put them in the
"Windows" directory if you have administrative privileges. Up to last year,
I just assumed that Compass users would have administrative privileges, so I
just put them into the "Windows" directory.

About a year ago, one of the Compass users complained that he couldn't load
Compass on a computer on which he didn't have Administrative Privileges. He
also pointed out that Windows Vista was pickier and I might have problems
with it. As a result, I decided to move the INI files to the proper location
which is something like: C:\Documents and Settings\\Application
Data\compass.

2. WIN98 VS. NT/XP/VISTA. There was only one problem with this scheme:
Windows 98 did not normally have a "Documents and Settings.." directory. To
solve this problem, each Compass program checks whether the computer is
running Win98 or NT/XP/Vista. If you are running Win98, it looks for the INI
files "Windows" directory. If you are running NT/XP/Vista, it looks in
"C:\Documents and Settings\\Application Data\compass".

3. TWO COPIES OF THE COMPASS32.INI FILES. The only problem with using two
different directories is the installation program has to find or create
"Compass32.ini" and set the location of the Compass program files.
Unfortunately, my Installation program is not smart enough to differentiate
between Win98 and NT/XP/VISTA when it comes to modifying an INI file. (It is
smart enough when it comes to other operations.) As a result, the only
solution I could come up with was to use two copies of Compass32.ini; one
for the Win98 directory and one for the NT/XP/VISTA directory. This is
reason that there are two copies of Compass32.ini on your hard drive. (The
reason the installer has to access "Compass32.ini" is that it needs to save
the location of the three Compass Programs so that other programs can find
them.)

There shouldn't be any problem with these two copies. If you are using
NT/XP/VISTA, Compass will use the one in "C:\Documents and
Settings\\Application Data\compass". If you are using Win98, Compass
will use the one in the "Windows" directory. Further more, when the
Installation program accesses an already existing Compass32.ini, it does not
modify your settings. It only updates the location of the Compass programs.
That is what is so puzzling about the settings changing after you install a
new version.

4. TWO COPIES OF OTHER INI FILES. I also noticed that there were two copies
of other Compass INI files on my hard drive. Some the copies I found were
probably old copies previous installations. Some of these files were there
because I had missed some places in the Compass program were it needed to
find the right directory. (This only had to do with the list of previously
opened files.) These problems have been fixed and there are new versions of
all the Compass programs on the internet.

5. WHY DO YOUR SETTINGS CHANGE AFTER AN NEW INSTALLATION? I'm not sure why
your settings are changing when you do a new installation. If you are still
running old versions of Compass, the old and new versions would be writing
to different INI files. If you are dual booting your computer between Win98
and XP, Compass would write to different INI files under 98 and XP.

6. SUGGESTED ACTIONS. First, I would install the newest versions of Compass.
The old version would still occasionally create and write to INI files in
the wrong directory.

Depending on which operating system you are using, I would delete all unused
INI files from your hard drive. If you are using Win98, I would delete
"Compass32.ini", "CaveVw32.ini" and "CaveEd32.ini" from the "Documents and
Settings\\Applications Data\compass" directory. (Even though Win98
doesn't use this directory, the Compass Installation program may create it.)

Likewise, if you are using NT/XP/Vista, I would delete the same files from
the "Windows" directory. The Compass installer will still put one copy of
"Compass32.ini" in the wrong directory, but, at least in theory, it won't
access that file.

7. DEBUGGING. If you are still having problems where installing a new
version of Compass causes your settings to be lost, it would be useful to me
if you could do a little checking for me. First, I need to know which
settings are getting lost. I also need to know if the settings are getting
lost in the Project Manager, the Editor or the Viewer. 

Second, go to the appropriate directory and check the INI files to see if
the settings in the files themselves have changed. You can edit the INI
files by double clicking the file. This should allow them to open the file
in "Notepad." I assume that things like Meters is changing to "Feet" when
you do an install, so you need to specifically check those settings. As an
example, here are the Meter-Setting flags in each of the INI files:

Compass32.ini:

[General]

DefaultMeters=1

CaveVw32.ini

[Units]

IyIa


Messsage #: 154
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 10:19:03 +0100
From: "Paul De Bie" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] Re: Geo Coordinates for .plt file

thats good News Howard. Glad it worked!

Paul De Bie
http://www.scavalon.be
http://scavalon.blogspot.com
http://pollekepik.blogspot.com

 -----Original Message-----
 From: [email protected] 
 [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of hkalnitz
 Sent: Friday, November 07, 2008 6:11 PM
 To: [email protected]
 Subject: [compass-users] Re: Geo Coordinates for .plt file
 
 Paul
 Thanks, this did exactly what I needed, and allowed me to get 
 the file back into .DAT format The hardest part was 
 understanding the French installer!
 Howard
 
 --- In [email protected], "Paul De Bie" 
  wrote:
 
  Hi,
  
  http://vtopo.free.fr/vtopo502.exe
  
  Once installed, you can go into Preferences, Langue and change the
 language in English.
  
  I just saw that the author relased a new version. I haven't looked
 at the changes in the dataformat
  yet, so I can't guarentee for 100% that my converter will work OK. 
 But I just tried the exercise
  (from a PLT tot TRO, then converting to compass) and it works.
  
  good luck
  
  Paul De Bie
  http://www.scavalon.be
  http://scavalon.blogspot.com
  http://pollekepik.blogspot.com
  
   -----Original Message-----
   From: [email protected] 
   [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of
 ericmweaver2003
   Sent: Friday, October 31, 2008 3:06 PM
   To: [email protected]
   Subject: [compass-users] Re: Geo Coordinates for .plt file
   
   Howard,
   It is relatively uncomplicated to geo-reference a shapefile in
 ArcGIS.
   You just need to go to the georeferencing toolbar and 
 then establish 
   control points. Unfortunately, the only control point you have is 
   the entrance. I believe that three control points is really the 
   recommended number. Not completely certain that this 
 really matters 
   with vectors as much as it does with rasters.If I have 
 time I will 
   test this out to see the difference. If Paul's program 
 does get your 
   data back, it obviously is the best option.
   
   Paul,
   I found VisualTopo in several different languages, but not in 
   English(although the site indicates there is an English 
 version, I 
   think).Do you have a direct link that I could access it with?
   
   ------------------------------------
   
   Yahoo! Groups Links
 
 ------------------------------------
 
 Yahoo! Groups Links


Messsage #: 155
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 10:38:02 +0100
From: "Paul De Bie" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features.

HI Larry, I will do some checking for you one of these days. 
 
but just some quick remarks:
 
- maybe it would be better to switch over to the registry instead of INI files.
 
- but personally I like INI files more because it is easier to migrate from one PC to another
 
- in my programs, I put them in the installation folder itself 
 
- I have had exactly the same problem as you faced, with my SpeleoBase program. At first I put the
INI in the Windows dir, afterwards I decided it would be better in the program's dir. The installer
could not handle this, so I coded it in my program: when SpeleoBase starts up, it looks if it still
finds a speleobase.INI in the Windows dir. If yes, then it doesn't belong there. I then check to see
if I find one in the speleobase program dir. If yes, we can get rid of the old leftover in windows
(delete or rename). If no, we will MOVE the speleobase.ini from c:\windows to the program dir. You
could build in comparable logic in Compass. Maybe the problems with Compass came because of the fact
that you didnt MOVE the existing INI files. You created new ones and ended up with doubles. 
 
- I'm not using Vista (yet), but I believe that you run into problems if you install stuff under
c:\program files that needs to be changed/updated afterwards. The logic being that programs don't
change and aren't allowed to change. So if you have a program that has also datafiles that are
subject to be updated/changed, they should be put in the users specific folder C:\Documents and
Settings\\Application Data\. This is of course a big pain in the ... because many older
programs dont have that separation between data and programs. The workaround is to install them in
the root itself like c:\Wcompass. Maybe the users that experienced problems with Compass under
Vista, were installing under Program Files? 
 
- FYI: Im using XP, and I always use the lates versions of Compass.
 
cheers

Paul De Bie
http://www.scavalon.be  
http://scavalon.blogspot.com  
http://pollekepik.blogspot.com  

  _____  

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Larry Fish
Sent: Friday, November 07, 2008 10:26 PM
Subject: RE: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features.

Paul,

Thanks for your email. I spent quite a bit of time looking at your problem and I have some ideas,
but I'm not completely sure what is going on. It is also pretty complicated. Here are some of the
things I figured out:

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HI Larry, I will do some checking for you one of these 
days. 
 
but just some quick remarks:
 
- maybe it would be better to switch over to the registry 
instead of INI files.
 
- but personally I like INI files more because it is easier 
to migrate from one PC to another
 
- in my programs, I put them in the installation 
folder itself 
 
- I have had exactly the same problem as you faced, with my 
SpeleoBase program. At first I put the INI in the Windows dir, afterwards I 
decided it would be better in the program's dir. The installer could not handle 
this, so I coded it in my program: when SpeleoBase starts up, it looks if it 
still finds a speleobase.INI in the Windows dir. If yes, then it doesn't belong 
there. I then check to see if I find one in the speleobase program dir. If yes, 
we can get rid of the old leftover in windows (delete or rename). If no, we 
will MOVE the speleobase.ini from c:\windows to the program dir. You could build 
in comparable logic in Compass. Maybe the problems with Compass came because of 
the fact that you didnt MOVE the existing INI files. You created new ones and 
ended up with doubles. 
 
- I'm not using Vista (yet), but I believe that you run 
into problems if you install stuff under c:\program files that needs to be 
changed/updated afterwards. The logic being that programs don't change and 
aren't allowed to change. So if you have a program that has also datafiles that 
are subject to be updated/changed, they should be put in the users specific 
folder C:\Documents and Settings\<user>\Application 
Data\. This is of course a big pain in the ... 
because many older programs dont have that separation between data and programs. 
The workaround is to install them in the root itself like c:\Wcompass. Maybe the 
users that experienced problems with Compass under Vista, were installing under 
Program Files? 
 
- FYI: 
Im using XP, and I always use the lates versions of Compass.
 
cheers
Paul De Biehttp://www.scavalon.behttp://scavalon.blogspot.comhttp://pollekepik.blogspot.com
 
  
  From: [email protected] 
  [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Larry 
  FishSent: Friday, November 07, 2008 10:26 PMTo: 
  [email protected]: RE: [compass-users] New 
  Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features.
  
  Paul,
   
  Thanks for your 
  email. I spent quite a bit of time looking at your problem and I have some 
  ideas, but I'm not completely sure what is going on. It is also pretty 
  complicated. Here are some of the things I figured 
  out:
   
  1


Messsage #: 156
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 18:31:30 +0100
From: "Paul De Bie" 
Subject: INI-files

Hi Larry,

I've did some tests regarding the INI-files. I've tried to reproduce the issue I had a couple of
months ago when I lost my Compass settings.

So I started with this situation (Windows XP):

-          The 3 INI files (CaveEd32.INI, CaveVw32.INI, Comp32.INI) are present in c:\windows

-          Since this situation was an older Compass install, there where no copies of these INI
files present in the c:\documents and settings\Paul\Application Data\Compass folder. I've checked
this.

 OK I now install the most recent Compass version. 

Result:

-          In c:\Windows two INI files have not been touched. They are still there and have not
changed: CaveEd32.INI, CaveVw32.INI

-          Yet in c:\Windows the Comp32.INI file has changed: Paths settings have been reset to
default Compass, we are back in feet instead of metres etc. Yet, the File History Paths are still
there, which means this is not a fresh copy of Comp32.INI: it is the old one that has been updated.

-          And now we also  do have Comp32.INI present in the c:\documents and
settings\Paul\Application Data\Compass folder. But is nearly empty; it contains only the [Paths]
section. There is no sign of the other two INI files.

OK I now launch Project Manager for the first time, change settings and do "Save User Settings". I
then compile a cave and open the viewer, in which I also change some settings and do a "Save User
Preferences". 

Result: 

-          The INI files in c:\Windows have not been touched and seem to have become obsolete.

-          The Comp32.INI file in c:\documents and settings\Paul\Application Data\Compass reflects
the changes, and there is now also a Cavevw32.INI which reflects the changes.

My conclusion: it goes wrong when you upgrade from an older Compass version (pr-Vista) that did not
use c:\documents and settings\Paul\Application Data\Compass to store its INI files, to the new
Compass version.  When you do that, your old settings in c:\Windows are not migrated and lost. 

Which means that my recommendations that I've given earlier are valid. I would simply code this into
my program, and on the very first run of Compass, move the INI-files myself from c:\Windows to the
Application Data folder. Or just read them and write their keys into the new INI files in the
Application Data folder. But, and this is important: the obsolete files in c:\Windows should be
removed! Even if they are no longer used, leaving them would mean that you create a confusing
situation that will sooner or later take its revenge.

HTH

Paul De Bie
http://www.scavalon.be  
http://scavalon.blogspot.com  
http://pollekepik.blogspot.com  

  _____  

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Paul De Bie
Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2008 10:38 AM
Subject: RE: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features.

HI Larry, I will do some checking for you one of these days. 
 
but just some quick remarks:
 
- maybe it would be better to switch over to the registry instead of INI files.
 
- but personally I like INI files more because it is easier to migrate from one PC to another
 
- in my programs, I put them in the installation folder itself 
 
- I have had exactly the same problem as you faced, with my SpeleoBase program. At first I put the
INI in the Windows dir, afterwards I decided it would be better in the program's dir. The installer
could not handle this, so I coded it in my program: when SpeleoBase starts up, it looks if it still
finds a speleobase.INI in the Windows dir. If yes, then it doesn't belong there. I then check to see
if I find one in the speleobase program dir. If yes, we can get rid of the old leftover in windows
(delete or rename). If no, we will MOVE the speleobase.ini from c:\windows to the program dir. You
could build in comparable logic in Compass. Maybe the problems with Compass came because of the fact
that you didnt MOVE the existing INI files. You created new ones and ended up with doubles. 
 
- I'm not using Vista (yet), but I believe that you run into problems if you install stuff under
c:\program files that needs to be changed/updated afterwards. The logic being that programs don't
change and aren't allowed to change. So if you have a program that has also datafiles that are
subject to be updated/changed, they should be put in the users specific folder C:\Documents and
Settings\\Application Data\. This is of course a big pain in the ... because many older
programs dont have that separation between data and programs. The workaround is to install them in
the root itself like c:\Wcompass. Maybe the users that experienced problems with Compass under
Vista, were installing under Program Files? 
 
- FYI: Im using XP, and I always use the lates versions of Compass.
 
cheers

Paul De Bie
http://www.scavalon.be  
http://scavalon.blogspot.com  
http://pollekepik.blogspot.com  

  _____  

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Larry Fish
Sent: Friday, November 07, 2008 10:26 PM
Subject: RE: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features.

Paul,

Thanks for your email. I spent quite a bit of time looking at your problem and I have some ideas,
but I'm not completely sure what is going on. It is also pretty complicated. Here are some of the
things I figured out:

1

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Hi Larry,
 
I've did some tests regarding the INI-files. I've tried to reproduce the issue I had a 
couple of months ago when I lost my Compass settings.
 
So I started with this situation (Windows 
XP):
-          
The 3 INI files (CaveEd32.INI, 
CaveVw32.INI, Comp32.INI) are present in c:\windows
-          
Since this situation was an older Compass 
install, there where no copies of these INI files present in the c:\documents 
and settings\Paul\Application Data\Compass folder. I've checked 
this.
 OK 
I now install the most recent Compass version. 
Result:
-          
In c:\Windows two INI files have not been 
touched. They are still there and have not changed: CaveEd32.INI, 
CaveVw32.INI
-          
Yet in c:\Windows the Comp32.INI file has 
changed: Paths settings have been reset to default Compass, we are back in feet 
instead of metres etc. Yet, the File History Paths are still there, which means 
this is not a fresh copy of Comp32.INI: it is the old one that has been 
updated.
-          
And now we also  do have Comp32.INI 
present in the c:\documents and settings\Paul\Application Data\Compass folder. 
But is nearly empty; it contains only the [Paths] section. There is no sign of 
the other two INI files.
 
OK I now launch Project Manager for the 
first time, change settings and do "Save User Settings". I then compile a cave 
and open the viewer, in which I also change some settings and do a "Save User 
Preferences". 
 
Result: 
-          
The INI files in c:\Windows have not been 
touched and seem to have become obsolete.
-          
The Comp32.INI file in c:\documents and 
settings\Paul\Application Data\Compass reflects the changes, and there is now 
also a Cavevw32.INI which reflects the changes.
 
My conclusion: it goes wrong when you 
upgrade from an older Compass version (pr-Vista) that did not use c:\documents 
and settings\Paul\Application Data\Compass to store its INI files, to the new 
Compass version.  When you do that, your old settings in c:\Windows are not 
migrated and lost. 
 
Which means that my recommendations that 
I've given earlier are valid. I would simply code this into my program, and on 
the very first run of Compass, move the INI-files myself from c:\Windows to the 
Application Data folder. Or just read them and write their keys into the new INI 
files in the Application Data folder. But, and this is important: the obsolete 
files in c:\Windows should be removed! Even if they are no longer used, leaving 
them would mean that you create a confusing situation that will sooner or later 
take its revenge.
 
HTH
 
 
Paul De Biehttp://www.scavalon.behttp://scavalon.blogspot.comhttp://pollekepik.blogspot.com
 
  
  From: [email protected] 
  [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Paul De 
  BieSent: Saturday, November 08, 2008 10:38 AMTo: 
  [email protected]: RE: [compass-users] New 
  Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features.
  
  HI Larry, I will do some checking for you one of these 
  days. 
   
  but just some quick remarks:
   
  - maybe it would be better to switch over to the registry 
  instead of INI files.
   
  - but personally I like INI files more because it is 
  easier to migrate from one PC to another
   
  - in my programs, I put them in the 
  installation folder itself 
   
  - I have had exactly the same problem as you faced, with 
  my SpeleoBase program. At first I put the INI in the Windows dir, afterwards I 
  decided it would be better in the program's dir. The installer could not 
  handle this, so I coded it in my program: when SpeleoBase starts up, it looks 
  if it still finds a speleobase.INI in the Windows dir. If yes, then it doesn't 
  belong there. I then check to see if I find one in the speleobase program dir. 
  If yes, we can get rid of the old leftover in windows (delete or rename). 
  If no, we will MOVE the speleobase.ini from c:\windows to the program dir. You 
  could build in comparable logic in Compass. Maybe the problems with Compass 
  came because of the fact that you didnt MOVE the existing INI files. You 
  created new ones and ended up with doubles. 
   
  - I'm not using Vista (yet), but I believe that you run 
  into problems if you install stuff under c:\program files that needs to be 
  changed/updated afterwards. The logic being that programs don't change and 
  aren't allowed to change. So if you have a program that has also datafiles 
  that are subject to be updated/changed, they should be put in the users 
  specific folder C:\Documents and 
  Settings\<user>\Application Data\. This is of 
  course a big pain in the ... because many older programs dont have that 
  separation between data and programs. The workaround is to install them in the 
  root itself like c:\Wcompass. Maybe the users that experienced problems with 
  Compass under Vista, were installing under Program Files? 
  
   
  - 
  FYI: Im using XP, and I always use the lates versions of 
  Compass.
   
  cheershttp://pollekepik.blogspot.com
   
    
    From: [email protected] 
    [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Larry 
    FishSent: Friday, November 07, 2008 10:26 PMTo: 
    [email protected]: RE: [compass-users] New 
    Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features.
    
    Paul,
     
    Thanks for your 
    email. I spent quite a bit of time looking at your problem and I have some 
    ideas, but I'm not completely sure what is going on. It is also pretty 
    complicated. Here are some of the things I figured 
    out:
     
    1 


Messsage #: 157
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 20:05:57 -0500
From: "Dwight Livingston" 
Subject: screen scale

Larry or anyone

I find than my screen preview does not scale equally for width and height.
This is in terms of pixel count, and in terms of the screen horizontal and
vertical (not the cave's horizontal and vertical.) When I do a screen
capture, I get a horizontal about 105% larger than the vertical, or about
105 pixels wide for every 100 pixels tall.

Is there a way to adjust this? I would rather the scale be the same.

Thanks

Dwight


Messsage #: 158
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 18:33:52 -0700
From: "Larry Fish" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] screen scale

Hi Dwight,

I'm not sure what you mean by "screen preview". Do you mean "Print Preview"?
Or just the normal Viewer screen? Or something else?

Larry

  _____  

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Dwight Livingston
Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 6:06 PM
Subject: [compass-users] screen scale

Larry or anyone

I find than my screen preview does not scale equally for width and height.
This is in terms of pixel count, and in terms of the screen horizontal and
vertical (not the cave's horizontal and vertical.) When I do a screen
capture, I get a horizontal about 105% larger than the vertical, or about
105 pixels wide for every 100 pixels tall.

Is there a way to adjust this? I would rather the scale be the same.

Thanks

Dwight

v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}


Messsage #: 159
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 20:24:39 -0500
From: "Dwight Livingston" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] screen scale

Hi Larry

I mean the normal Viewer screen.

Dwight

  -----Original Message-----
  From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of Larry Fish
  Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 8:34 PM
  To: [email protected]
  Subject: RE: [compass-users] screen scale

  Hi Dwight,

  I'm not sure what you mean by "screen preview". Do you mean "Print
 Preview"? Or just the normal Viewer screen? Or something else?

  Larry

  From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Dwight Livingston
  Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 6:06 PM
  To: Compass-Users
  Subject: [compass-users] screen scale

  Larry or anyone

  I find than my screen preview does not scale equally for width and height.
  This is in terms of pixel count, and in terms of the screen horizontal and
  vertical (not the cave's horizontal and vertical.) When I do a screen
  capture, I get a horizontal about 105% larger than the vertical, or about
  105 pixels wide for every 100 pixels tall.

  Is there a way to adjust this? I would rather the scale be the same.

  Thanks

  Dwight

Hi 
Larry
 
I mean 
the normal Viewer screen.
 
Dwight
 
 
 
 

  -----Original Message-----From: 
  [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]On 
  Behalf Of Larry FishSent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 8:34 
  PMTo: [email protected]: RE: 
  [compass-users] screen scale
  
  Hi 
  Dwight,
  
  I'm not sure what you 
  mean by "screen preview". Do you mean "Print Preview"? Or just the normal 
  Viewer screen? Or something else?
  
  Larry
  
    
  From: 
  [email protected] 
  [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dwight 
  LivingstonSent: Sunday, 
  November 23, 2008 6:06 PMTo: 
  Compass-UsersSubject: 
  [compass-users] screen scale
  
  Larry or 
  anyoneI find than my screen preview does not scale equally for width 
  and height.This is in terms of pixel count, and in terms of the screen 
  horizontal andvertical (not the cave's horizontal and vertical.) When I do 
  a screencapture, I get a horizontal about 105% larger than the vertical, 
  or about105 pixels wide for every 100 pixels tall.Is there a way 
  to adjust this? I would rather the scale be the 
  same.ThanksDwight


Messsage #: 160
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 20:10:38 -0700
From: "Larry Fish" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] screen scale

Hi Dwight,

Compass uses the Windows Graphics software to draw all cave plots. I
specifically tell Windows to draw the images using a mapping mode that
scales everything to thousandth's of an inch:

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms532673(VS.85).aspx

The advantage of this is that Windows handles all the scaling for video
cards, monitors and printers. On my computers, equal length lines always
display with the same number of pixels. If there is a problem, it probably
has to do with your video card drivers.

Let's see if we can dig a little deeper and diagnose the problem. If you
have two 10-meter plot lines, one that goes north and another that goes
east, the lines should appear on the screen to have exactly the same number
of pixels in length. This assumes that there are no rotations of any kind.
If, for example, the cave is tilted, then some lines will display with more
pixels and some with less.

Now, two lines may have the same number of pixels but appear to be different
lengths if you hold a ruler up to your monitor. This is because the
monitor's display-height and width can be adjusted. For example, if the
horizontal width on the monitor is reduced, horizontal lines will appear
shorter. However, even though they are shorter, they will still have the
exact same number of pixels.

The way I test this problem is to use an artificial cave that has six,
8-foot shots in the North, South, East, West, Up and Down directions. You
can download one of my test files here:

http://www.fountainware.com/download/cross2.plt

If I measure any two shots at right angles to each other (such as North and
East), they measure exactly the same number of pixels. Test this file on
your computer and see what kind of measurements you get. If there still
seems to be a problem, send me a screen capture of the image and I will
check it out.

If you need a screen capture program, here is a link to the one I use. There
is a free trial version:

http://www.PixelMetrics.com  

Larry

  _____  

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Dwight Livingston
Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 6:25 PM
Subject: RE: [compass-users] screen scale

Hi Larry

I mean the normal Viewer screen.

Dwight

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]On
Behalf Of Larry Fish
Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 8:34 PM
Subject: RE: [compass-users] screen scale

Hi Dwight,

I'm not sure what you mean by "screen preview". Do you mean "Print Preview"?
Or just the normal Viewer screen? Or something else?

Larry

  _____  

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Dwight Livingston
Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 6:06 PM
Subject: [compass-users] screen scale

Larry or anyone

I find than my screen preview does not scale equally for width and height.
This is in terms of pixel count, and in terms of the screen horizontal and
vertical (not the cave's horizontal and vertical.) When I do a screen
capture, I get a horizontal about 105% larger than the vertical, or about
105 pixels wide for every 100 pixels tall.

Is there a way to adjust this? I would rather the scale be the same.

Thanks

Dwight

v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}


Messsage #: 161
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 08:00:00 -0600 (CST)
From: Dwight Livingston 
Subject: Re: RE: [compass-users] screen scale

Larry
Your instructions follow about what I did last night to confirm this problem. I created an east-west shot and a north-south shot of equal lengths, so that they should appear to be equal lengths in plan view. I started the viewer, arranged a view of the two shots with north up, screen captured the view screen, took it to Photoshop, and got a pixel count of the lines. The east-west is longer by about 5%. I did the same process with a vertical shot of the same length, with the same results. I then tried a vertical scale factor of 1.05 percent, and that made the line lengths close, but not exactly matching.
I am not using a ruler to measure things as they appear on the screen.
I just tried the same test here at work, and the results are much closer to correct, but still off a bit, for example 527 pixels wide to 525 pixels tall. I have an Nvidia card here and a control panel with more options than one might find otherwise, so I played with the Flat Panel Scaling controls. I did not get anything exact, even with the "Do not scale" option.
I've attached two screen captures from my left monitor, using your "cross" plot. One shows the station labels, so you might confirm what orientation I am using. The other does not have station labels, so the pixel counts are easier to measure.
Thanks
Dwight Nov 23, 2008 10:10:56 PM, [email protected] wrote:

Hi Dwight,

Compass uses the Windows Graphics software to draw all cave plots. I specifically tell Windows to draw the images using a mapping mode that scales everything to thousandth?Ts of an inch:

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms532673(VS.85).aspx

The advantage of this is that Windows handles all the scaling for video cards, monitors and printers. On my computers, equal length lines always display with the same number of pixels. If there is a problem, it probably has to do with your video card drivers.

Let?Ts see if we can dig a little deeper and diagnose the problem. If you have two 10-meter plot lines, one that goes north and another that goes east, the lines should appear on the screen to have exactly the same number of pixels in length. This assumes that there are no rotations of any kind. If, for example, the cave is tilted, then some lines will display with more pixels and some with less.

Now, two lines may have the same number of pixels but appear to be different lengths if you hold a ruler up to your monitor. This is because the monitor?Ts display-height and width can be adjusted. For example, if the horizontal width on the monitor is reduced, horizontal lines will appear shorter. However, even though they are shorter, they will still have the exact same number of pixels.

The way I test this problem is to use an artificial cave that has six, 8-foot shots in the North, South, East, West, Up and Down directions. You can download one of my test files here:

http://www.fountainware.com/download/cross2.plt

If I measure any two shots at right angles to each other (such as North and East), they measure exactly the same number of pixels. Test this file on your computer and see what kind of measurements you get. If there still seems to be a problem, send me a screen capture of the image and I will check it out.

If you need a screen capture program, here is a link to the one I use. There is a free trial version:

http://www.PixelMetrics.com

Larry






From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dwight LivingstonSent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 6:25 PMTo: compass-us[email protected]: RE: [compass-users] screen scale

Hi Larry

I mean the normal Viewer screen.

Dwight

-----Original Message-----From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of Larry FishSent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 8:34 PMTo: [email protected]: RE: [compass-users] screen scale

Hi Dwight,
I?Tm not sure what you mean by ?oscreen preview??. Do you mean ?oPrint Preview??? Or just the normal Viewer screen? Or something else?
Larry

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dwight LivingstonSent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 6:06 PMTo: Compass-UsersSubject: [compass-users] screen scale
Larry or anyoneI find than my screen preview does not scale equally for width and height.This is in terms of pixel count, and in terms of the screen horizontal andvertical (not the cave's horizontal and vertical.) When I do a screencapture, I get a horizontal about 105% larger than the vertical, or about105 pixels wide for every 100 pixels tall.Is there a way to adjust this? I would rather the scale be the same.ThanksDwight

 

Messsage #: 162
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 16:23:12 -0700
From: "Larry Fish" 
Subject: RE: RE: [compass-users] screen scale

Hi Dwight,

I looked at the screen captures that you sent me and measured the lengths of
the bars in the image. To make sure there was no distortion or scaling
problems, I measured the images in MS Paint. I get 1105 vs 1100 for the full
length of North/South bar to the East/West bar. This was on the image
without station labels. On the image with the station labels, I get 1102 to
1098. Here are the percentage differences:

1105 x 1100 = 0.0045%

1102 x 1098 = 0.0036%

These are all less than 1/2 percent difference. I suspect this small
difference is due to integer rounding errors when Windows or the Video
Drivers converts thousands of an inch to pixels. If the math is not done
right, it is fairly easy to introduce rounding errors in the conversion
process, especially when the basic numbers are integer to begin with. (All
video screen commands in Windows are in integers.)

Compass deals with all survey data numbers as floating point values, so
there is little chance that Compass is distorting the image. Particularly
since I'm not seeing the discrepancy on any of the computer I have around
here.

I take it from your letter that you are getting much larger errors on your
other computer. The fact that you are getting different numbers from one
computer to the next, seems to indicate that the problem is computer
specific. That would most likely be the Video drivers or Windows itself.

 I then tried a vertical scale factor of 1.05 percent, and

 that made the line lengths close, but not exactly matching.

When you adjust the "scale factor" did it actually change the number of
pixels in the line? If it did, then it indicates that the software is
adjusting the aspect ratio between the horizontal and vertical pixels. If
that is the case, that would be one more indication that the problem is in
the drivers or Windows.

 I have an Nvidia card here and a control panel with more

 options than one might find otherwise, 

I too have an Nvidia card that is new enough to be compatible with Windows
Vista. I have also been through several older NVidia cards over the past few
years, and I haven't had any problems with scaling on those cards.

The flat panel monitors can also be a complicating factor. With a CRT type
monitor, the control mechanism is analog so they can handle different
resolution without much difficulty. The flat panel monitors have a specific
number of pixels that are less tolerant of changes in resolution. In some
cases, I have seen the monitor or the video card remove every X number
pixels to fit the image to the monitor resolution. This can cause some very
strange distortions.

I also notice that the images you sent me were 1200x1600. You must be
running this computer in some sort of "Portrait Mode" where the screen is
taller than it is wide. This is an aspect ratio of 3:4 instead of the more
typical 4:3. Since this mode is unusual, it is possible that the driver
software for this mode is not as well tested as the more typical
resolutions.

I did a Google search on NVidia cards and aspect ratio scaling problems.
There were quite a few responses, some of them related to driver issues. I'm
not sure they apply to your specific problem but they are worth a look:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en
 &q=aspect+ratio+problems+nvidia+cards&aq=f&oq
Larry

  _____  

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Dwight Livingston
Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 7:00 AM
Subject: Re: RE: [compass-users] screen scale

Larry

Your instructions follow about what I did last night to confirm this
problem. I created an east-west shot and a north-south shot of equal
lengths, so that they should appear to be equal lengths in plan view. I
started the viewer, arranged a view of the two shots with north up, screen
captured the view screen, took it to Photoshop, and got a pixel count of the
lines. The east-west is longer by about 5%. I did the same process with a
vertical shot of the same length, with the same results. I then tried a
vertical scale factor of 1.05 percent, and that made the line lengths close,
but not exactly matching.

I am not using a ruler to measure things as they appear on the screen.

I just tried the same test here at work, and the results are much closer to
correct, but still off a bit, for example 527 pixels wide to 525 pixels
tall. I have an Nvidia card here and a control panel with more options than
one might find otherwise, so I played with the Flat Panel Scaling controls.
I did not get anything exact, even with the "Do not scale" option.

I've attached two screen captures from my left monitor, using your "cross"
plot. One shows the station labels, so you might confirm what orientation I
am using. The other does not have station labels, so the pixel counts are
easier to measure.

Thanks

Dwight 

Nov 23, 2008 10:10:56 PM, [email protected] wrote:

Hi Dwight,

Compass uses the Windows Graphics software to draw all cave plots. I
specifically tell Windows to draw the images using a mapping mode that
scales everything to thousandth's of an inch:

http://msdn. 
microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms532673(VS.85).aspx

The advantage of this is that Windows handles all the scaling for video
cards, monitors and printers. On my computers, equal length lines always
display with the same number of pixels. If there is a problem, it probably
has to do with your video card drivers.

Let's see if we can dig a little deeper and diagnose the problem. If you
have two 10-meter plot lines, one that goes north and another that goes
east, the lines should appear on the screen to have exactly the same number
of pixels in length. This assumes that there are no rotations of any kind.
If, for example, the cave is tilted, then some lines will display with more
pixels and some with less.

Now, two lines may have the same number of pixels but appear to be different
lengths if you hold a ruler up to your monitor. This is because the
monitor's display-height and width can be adjusted. For example, if the
horizontal width on the monitor is reduced, horizontal lines will appear
shorter. However, even though they are shorter, they will still have the
exact same number of pixels.

The way I test this problem is to use an artificial cave that has six,
8-foot shots in the North, South, East, West, Up and Down directions. You
can download one of my test files here:

http://www.fountain 
ware.com/download/cross2.plt

If I measure any two shots at right angles to each other (such as North and
East), they measure exactly the same number of pixels. Test this file on
your computer and see what kind of measurements you get. If there still
seems to be a problem, send me a screen capture of the image and I will
check it out.

If you need a screen capture program, here is a link to the one I use. There
is a free trial version:

http://www.PixelMet  rics.com

Larry

  _____  

size=2 width="100%" alignInter tabIndex=-1 

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Dwight Livingston
Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 6:25 PM
Subject: RE: [compass-users] screen scale

Hi Larry

I mean the normal Viewer screen.

Dwight

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]On
Behalf Of Larry Fish
Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 8:34 PM
Subject: RE: [compass-users] screen scale

Hi Dwight,

I'm not sure what you mean by "screen preview". Do you mean "Print Preview"?
Or just the normal Viewer screen? Or something else?

Larry

  _____  

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Dwight Livingston
Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 6:06 PM
Subject: [compass-users] screen scale

Larry or anyone

I find than my screen preview does not scale equally for width and height.
This is in terms of pixel count, and in terms of the screen horizontal and
vertical (not the cave's horizontal and vertical.) When I do a screen
capture, I get a horizontal about 105% larger than the vertical, or about
105 pixels wide for every 100 pixels tall.

Is there a way to adjust this? I would rather the scale be the same.

Thanks

Dwight

v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}


Messsage #: 163
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 22:39:18 -0500
From: "Dwight Livingston" 
Subject: RE: RE: [compass-users] screen scale

Larry

I downloaded an updated display driver from ATI for the card I use at home.
The driver includes some limited scaling controls. As it happened, with the
default settings for this new driver Compass produces an exactly correct
ratio. So I'm good to go.

As an enhancement request, it would be nice if Compass would produce a
screen image or bitmap export that scaled for pixels. For my current project
I'm scaling all my sketch mosaics at 4 pixels per foot, and that works quite
nicely for me. It'd be handy to type a pixels/foot number into the Viewer
and get images just that size.

Thanks very much for your help.

Dwight

  -----Original Message-----
  From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of Larry Fish
  Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 6:23 PM
  To: [email protected]
  Subject: RE: RE: [compass-users] screen scale

  Hi Dwight,

  I looked at the screen captures that you sent me and measured the lengths
of the bars in the image. To make sure there was no distortion or scaling
problems, I measured the images in MS Paint. I get 1105 vs 1100 for the full
length of North/South bar to the East/West bar. This was on the image
without station labels. On the image with the station labels, I get 1102 to
1098. Here are the percentage differences:

  1105 x 1100 = 0.0045%

  1102 x 1098 = 0.0036%

  These are all less than 1/2 percent difference. I suspect this small
difference is due to integer rounding errors when Windows or the Video
Drivers converts thousands of an inch to pixels. If the math is not done
right, it is fairly easy to introduce rounding errors in the conversion
process, especially when the basic numbers are integer to begin with. (All
video screen commands in Windows are in integers.)

  Compass deals with all survey data numbers as floating point values, so
there is little chance that Compass is distorting the image. Particularly
since I'm not seeing the discrepancy on any of the computer I have around
here.

  I take it from your letter that you are getting much larger errors on your
other computer. The fact that you are getting different numbers from one
computer to the next, seems to indicate that the problem is computer
specific. That would most likely be the Video drivers or Windows itself.

   I then tried a vertical scale factor of 1.05 percent, and

   that made the line lengths close, but not exactly matching.

  When you adjust the "scale factor" did it actually change the number of
pixels in the line? If it did, then it indicates that the software is
adjusting the aspect ratio between the horizontal and vertical pixels. If
that is the case, that would be one more indication that the problem is in
the drivers or Windows.

   I have an Nvidia card here and a control panel with more

   options than one might find otherwise,

  I too have an Nvidia card that is new enough to be compatible with Windows
Vista. I have also been through several older NVidia cards over the past few
years, and I haven't had any problems with scaling on those cards.

  The flat panel monitors can also be a complicating factor. With a CRT type
monitor, the control mechanism is analog so they can handle different
resolution without much difficulty. The flat panel monitors have a specific
number of pixels that are less tolerant of changes in resolution. In some
cases, I have seen the monitor or the video card remove every X number
pixels to fit the image to the monitor resolution. This can cause some very
strange distortions.

  I also notice that the images you sent me were 1200x1600. You must be
running this computer in some sort of "Portrait Mode" where the screen is
taller than it is wide. This is an aspect ratio of 3:4 instead of the more
typical 4:3. Since this mode is unusual, it is possible that the driver
software for this mode is not as well tested as the more typical
resolutions.

  I did a Google search on NVidia cards and aspect ratio scaling problems.
There were quite a few responses, some of them related to driver issues. I'm
not sure they apply to your specific problem but they are worth a look:

  http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=aspect+ratio+problems+nvidia+cards&aq
=f&oq
  Larry

  From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Dwight Livingston
  Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 7:00 AM
  To: [email protected]
  Subject: Re: RE: [compass-users] screen scale

  Larry

  Your instructions follow about what I did last night to confirm this
problem. I created an east-west shot and a north-south shot of equal
lengths, so that they should appear to be equal lengths in plan view. I
started the viewer, arranged a view of the two shots with north up, screen
captured the view screen, took it to Photoshop, and got a pixel count of the
lines. The east-west is longer by about 5%. I did the same process with a
vertical shot of the same length, with the same results. I then tried a
vertical scale factor of 1.05 percent, and that made the line lengths close,
but not exactly matching.

  I am not using a ruler to measure things as they appear on the screen.

  I just tried the same test here at work, and the results are much closer
to correct, but still off a bit, for example 527 pixels wide to 525 pixels
tall. I have an Nvidia card here and a control panel with more options than
one might find otherwise, so I played with the Flat Panel Scaling controls.
I did not get anything exact, even with the "Do not scale" option.

  I've attached two screen captures from my left monitor, using your "cross"
plot. One shows the station labels, so you might confirm what orientation I
am using. The other does not have station labels, so the pixel counts are
easier to measure.

  Thanks

  Dwight

  Nov 23, 2008 10:10:56 PM, [email protected] wrote:

    Hi Dwight,

    Compass uses the Windows Graphics software to draw all cave plots. I
specifically tell Windows to draw the images using a mapping mode that
scales everything to thousandth's of an inch:

    http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms532673(VS.85).aspx

    The advantage of this is that Windows handles all the scaling for video
cards, monitors and printers. On my computers, equal length lines always
display with the same number of pixels. If there is a problem, it probably
has to do with your video card drivers.

    Let's see if we can dig a little deeper and diagnose the problem. If you
have two 10-meter plot lines, one that goes north and another that goes
east, the lines should appear on the screen to have exactly the same number
of pixels in length. This assumes that there are no rotations of any kind.
If, for example, the cave is tilted, then some lines will display with more
pixels and some with less.

    Now, two lines may have the same number of pixels but appear to be
different lengths if you hold a ruler up to your monitor. This is because
the monitor's display-height and width can be adjusted. For example, if the
horizontal width on the monitor is reduced, horizontal lines will appear
shorter. However, even though they are shorter, they will still have the
exact same number of pixels.

    The way I test this problem is to use an artificial cave that has six,
8-foot shots in the North, South, East, West, Up and Down directions. You
can download one of my test files here:

    http://www.fountainware.com/download/cross2.plt

    If I measure any two shots at right angles to each other (such as North
and East), they measure exactly the same number of pixels. Test this file on
your computer and see what kind of measurements you get. If there still
seems to be a problem, send me a screen capture of the image and I will
check it out.

    If you need a screen capture program, here is a link to the one I use.
There is a free trial version:

    http://www.PixelMetrics.com

    Larry

[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dwight Livingston
    Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 6:25 PM
    To: [email protected]
    Subject: RE: [compass-users] screen scale

    Hi Larry

    I mean the normal Viewer screen.

    Dwight

      -----Original Message-----
      From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of Larry Fish
      Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 8:34 PM
      To: [email protected]
      Subject: RE: [compass-users] screen scale

      Hi Dwight,

      I'm not sure what you mean by "screen preview". Do you mean "Print
Preview"? Or just the normal Viewer screen? Or something else?

      Larry

      From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dwight Livingston
      Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 6:06 PM
      To: Compass-Users
      Subject: [compass-users] screen scale

      Larry or anyone

      I find than my screen preview does not scale equally for width and
height.
      This is in terms of pixel count, and in terms of the screen horizontal
and
      vertical (not the cave's horizontal and vertical.) When I do a screen
      capture, I get a horizontal about 105% larger than the vertical, or
about
      105 pixels wide for every 100 pixels tall.

      Is there a way to adjust this? I would rather the scale be the same.

      Thanks

      Dwight

Larry
 
I 
downloaded an updated display driver from ATI for the card I use at 
home. The driver includes some limited scaling controls. As it 
happened, with the default settings for this new driver Compass produces an 
exactly correct ratio. So I'm good to go.
 
As an 
enhancement request, it would be nice if Compass would produce a 
screen image or bitmap export that scaled for pixels. For my current project I'm 
scaling all my sketch mosaics at 4 pixels per foot, and that 
works quite nicely for me. It'd be handy to type a pixels/foot 
number into the Viewer and get images just that 
size.
 
Thanks 
very much for your help.
 
Dwight 
 
 

  -----Original Message-----From: 
  [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]On 
  Behalf Of Larry FishSent: Monday, November 24, 2008 6:23 
  PMTo: [email protected]: RE: RE: 
  [compass-users] screen scale
  
  Hi 
  Dwight,
  
  I looked at the 
  screen captures that you sent me and measured the lengths of the bars in the 
  image. To make sure there was no distortion or scaling problems, I measured 
  the images in MS Paint. I get 1105 vs 1100 for the full length of North/South 
  bar to the East/West bar. This was on the image without station labels. On the 
  image with the station labels, I get 1102 to 1098. Here are the percentage 
  differences:
  
  1105 x 1100 = 
  0.0045%
  1102 x 1098 = 
  0.0036%
  
  These are all less 
  than 1/2 percent difference. I suspect this small difference is due to integer 
  rounding errors when Windows or the Video Drivers converts thousands of an 
  inch to pixels. If the math is not done right, it is fairly easy to introduce 
  rounding errors in the conversion process, especially when the basic numbers 
  are integer to begin with. (All video screen commands in Windows are in 
  integers.)
  
  Compass deals with 
  all survey data numbers as floating point values, so there is little chance 
  that Compass is distorting the image. Particularly since I'm not seeing the 
  discrepancy on any of the computer I have around 
here.
  
  I take it from your 
  letter that you are getting much larger errors on your other computer. The 
  fact that you are getting different numbers from one computer to the next, 
  seems to indicate that the problem is computer specific. That would most 
  likely be the Video drivers or Windows itself.
  
  > I then tried a 
  vertical scale factor of 1.05 percent, and
  > that made the 
  line lengths close, but not exactly matching.
  
  When you adjust the 
  "scale factor" did it actually change the number of pixels in the line? If it 
  did, then it indicates that the software is adjusting the aspect ratio between 
  the horizontal and vertical pixels. If that is the case, that would be one 
  more indication that the problem is in the drivers or 
  Windows.
  
  > I have an Nvidia 
  card here and a control panel with more
  > options than one 
  might find otherwise, 
  
  I too have an Nvidia 
  card that is new enough to be compatible with Windows Vista. I have also been 
  through several older NVidia cards over the past few years, and I haven't had 
  any problems with scaling on those cards.
  
  The flat panel 
  monitors can also be a complicating factor. With a CRT type monitor, the 
  control mechanism is analog so they can handle different resolution without 
  much difficulty. The flat panel monitors have a specific number of pixels that 
  are less tolerant of changes in resolution. In some cases, I have seen the 
  monitor or the video card remove every X number pixels to fit the image to the 
  monitor resolution. This can cause some very strange 
  distortions.
  
  I also notice that 
  the images you sent me were 1200x1600. You must be running this computer in 
  some sort of "Portrait Mode" where the screen is taller than it is wide. This 
  is an aspect ratio of 3:4 instead of the more typical 4:3. Since this mode is 
  unusual, it is possible that the driver software for this mode is not as well 
  tested as the more typical resolutions.
  
  I did a Google search 
  on NVidia cards and aspect ratio scaling problems. There were quite a few 
  responses, some of them related to driver issues. I'm not sure they apply to 
  your specific problem but they are worth a look:
  
  http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=aspect+ratio+problems+nvidia+cards&aq=f&oq  
  Larry
    
  From: 
  [email protected] 
  [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dwight 
  LivingstonSent: Monday, 
  November 24, 2008 7:00 AMTo: 
  [email protected]: Re: RE: [compass-users] screen 
  scale
  
  Larry
  Your 
  instructions follow about what I did last night to confirm this problem. I 
  created an east-west shot and a north-south shot of equal lengths, so that 
  they should appear to be equal lengths in plan view. I started the viewer, 
  arranged a view of the two shots with north up, screen captured the view 
  screen, took it to Photoshop, and got a pixel count of the lines. The 
  east-west is longer by about 5%. I did the same process with a vertical shot 
  of the same length, with the same results. I then tried a vertical scale 
  factor of 1.05 percent, and that made the line lengths close, but not exactly 
  matching.
  I am not 
  using a ruler to measure things as they appear on the 
  screen.
  I just 
  tried the same test here at work, and the results are much closer to correct, 
  but still off a bit, for example 527 pixels wide to 525 pixels tall. I have an 
  Nvidia card here and a control panel with more options than one might find 
  otherwise, so I played with the Flat Panel Scaling controls. I did not get 
  anything exact, even with the "Do not scale" option.
  I've 
  attached two screen captures from my left monitor, using your "cross" plot. 
  One shows the station labels, so you might confirm what orientation I am 
  using. The other does not have station labels, so the pixel counts are easier 
  to measure.
  Thanks
  Dwight 
  Nov 23, 2008 10:10:56 PM, [email protected] 
  wrote:
    
    Hi 
    Dwight,
    Compass uses 
    the Windows Graphics software to draw all cave plots. I specifically tell 
    Windows to draw the images using a mapping mode that scales everything to 
    thousandth's of an inch:
    http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms532673(VS.85).aspx
    The 
    advantage of this is that Windows handles all the scaling for video cards, 
    monitors and printers. On my computers, equal length lines always display 
    with the same number of pixels. If there is a problem, it probably has to do 
    with your video card drivers.
    Let's see if 
    we can dig a little deeper and diagnose the problem. If you have two 
    10-meter plot lines, one that goes north and another that goes east, the 
    lines should appear on the screen to have exactly the same number of pixels 
    in length. This assumes that there are no rotations of any kind. If, for 
    example, the cave is tilted, then some lines will display with more pixels 
    and some with less.
    Now, two 
    lines may have the same number of pixels but appear to be different lengths 
    if you hold a ruler up to your monitor. This is because the monitor's 
    display-height and width can be adjusted. For example, if the horizontal 
    width on the monitor is reduced, horizontal lines will appear shorter. 
    However, even though they are shorter, they will still have the exact same 
    number of pixels.
    The way I 
    test this problem is to use an artificial cave that has six, 8-foot shots in 
    the North, South, East, West, Up and Down directions. You can download one 
    of my test files here:
    http://www.fountainware.com/download/cross2.plt
    If I measure 
    any two shots at right angles to each other (such as North and East), they 
    measure exactly the same number of pixels. Test this file on your computer 
    and see what kind of measurements you get. If there still seems to be a 
    problem, send me a screen capture of the image and I will check it 
    out.
    If you need 
    a screen capture program, here is a link to the one I use. There is a free 
    trial version:
    http://www.PixelMetrics.com
    Larry
    
    size=2 width="100%" align=center tabIndex=-1> 
    
    From: 
    [email protected] 
    [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dwight 
    LivingstonSent: Sunday, 
    November 23, 2008 6:25 PMTo: 
    [email protected]: RE: [compass-users] screen 
    scale
    
    Hi 
    Larry
    
    I mean the 
    normal Viewer screen.
    
    Dwight
    
      -----Original 
      Message-----From: 
      [email protected] 
      [mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of Larry FishSent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 8:34 
      PMTo: 
      [email protected]: RE: [compass-users] screen 
      scale
      
      Hi 
      Dwight,
      I'm not 
      sure what you mean by "screen preview". Do you mean "Print Preview"? Or 
      just the normal Viewer screen? Or something 
      else?
      Larry
      
      From: 
      [email protected] 
      [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dwight 
      LivingstonSent: Sunday, 
      November 23, 2008 6:06 PMTo: Compass-UsersSubject: [compass-users] screen 
      scale
      
      Larry 
      or anyoneI find than my screen preview does not scale equally for 
      width and height.This is in terms of pixel count, and in terms of the 
      screen horizontal andvertical (not the cave's horizontal and 
      vertical.) When I do a screencapture, I get a horizontal about 105% 
      larger than the vertical, or about105 pixels wide for every 100 pixels 
      tall.Is there a way to adjust this? I would rather the scale be 
      the 
      same.ThanksDwight


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