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Messsage #: 67
Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 13:39:37 -0000 From: "hkalnitz" Subject: Compass to Illustrator - Redux Folks Just went through this over the weekend again and tuned in here to see if there was any previous help/discussion. I went through the discussion from Dec 2006, but really didn't see a good solution, so I am asking if I am missing something. I am trying to import a scaled lineplot on which to lay my sketches. I am used to using Jim Olsens plug in for illustrator 10, but we all know that doesnt work for CS. I can import DXF through Autocad, but it is not scaled correctly, thus if I add survey and update, I will have to redo scaling again and again. My best option so far has been to convert the datafile to walls, and use its export funtion, which will export a scaled WMF, but the fonts are flaky... I would love to see something like Jims plug in, but he is out of the business (I hear he has to pedal a generator 2 miles just to read his e-mail) Any help or updates? Howard
Messsage #: 68
Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 14:31:56 -0000 From: "caveresource" Subject: Re: Compass to Illustrator - Redux H- I've looked at this in the past, without much success. The next step I was thinking of doing was to generate a DXF from AI and compare the structure of the DXF exported with one created by Compass. Another option would be to download a copy of MicroStation PowerDraft. It is free, and last time I ran a Compass DXF through it, I was then able to open it in AI. Available at: http://www.be.org/en-US/BE+Careers/PowerDraft+Download.htm Hopefully Larry can find a way to update the DXF export in Compass or switch over to supporting something like SVG since Adobe is heavily invested in that technology. Good luck- Aaron Folks Just went through this over the weekend again and tuned in here to see if there was any previous help/discussion. I went through the discussion from Dec 2006, but really didn't see a good solution, so I am asking if I am missing something. I am trying to import a scaled lineplot on which to lay my sketches. I am used to using Jim Olsens plug in for illustrator 10, but we all know that doesnt work for CS. I can import DXF through Autocad, but it is not scaled correctly, thus if I add survey and update, I will have to redo scaling again and again. My best option so far has been to convert the datafile to walls, and use its export funtion, which will export a scaled WMF, but the fonts are flaky... I would love to see something like Jims plug in, but he is out of the business (I hear he has to pedal a generator 2 miles just to read his e-mail) Any help or updates? Howard
Messsage #: 69
Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 15:59:44 -0000 From: "Rick" Subject: Re: Compass to Illustrator - Redux I've been trying this and it seems like it works pretty good. Go here: http://www.cutepdf.com/Products/CutePDF/writer.asp and download the free .pdf writer. Once it's installed you will be able to save any file as a .pdf.(It will show up as another printer in your printer list.) Save your lineplot as a pdf. Now you can place it in Illustrator as a layer. You can now directly edit the line plot or, if you want to spend the extra time, and retrace the whole thing. Hope this helps! Rick H- I've looked at this in the past, without much success. The next step I was thinking of doing was to generate a DXF from AI and compare the structure of the DXF exported with one created by Compass. Another option would be to download a copy of MicroStation PowerDraft. It is free, and last time I ran a Compass DXF through it, I was then able to open it in AI. Available at: http://www.be.org/en-US/BE+Careers/PowerDraft+Download.htm Hopefully Larry can find a way to update the DXF export in Compass or switch over to supporting something like SVG since Adobe is heavily invested in that technology. Good luck- Aaron --- In [email protected], "hkalnitz" wrote: Folks Just went through this over the weekend again and tuned in here to see if there was any previous help/discussion. I went through the discussion from Dec 2006, but really didn't see a good solution, so I am asking if I am missing something. I am trying to import a scaled lineplot on which to lay my sketches. I am used to using Jim Olsens plug in for illustrator 10, but we all know that doesnt work for CS. I can import DXF through Autocad, but it is not scaled correctly, thus if I add survey and update, I will have to redo scaling again and again. My best option so far has been to convert the datafile to walls, and use its export funtion, which will export a scaled WMF, but the fonts are flaky... I would love to see something like Jims plug in, but he is out of the business (I hear he has to pedal a generator 2 miles just to read his e-mail) Any help or updates? Howard
Messsage #: 70
Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 23:10:34 +0100 From: Torstein Finnesand Subject: Re: [compass-users] Re: Compass to Illustrator - Redux I open the .plt file in Aven (Survex). From Aven I export it in SVG.format. And Adobe illustrator reads it. NS�� I've been trying this and it seems like it works pretty good. Go here: http://www.cutepdf.com/Products/CutePDF/writer.asp and download the free .pdf writer. Once it's installed you will be able to save any file as a .pdf.(It will show up as another printer in your printer list.) Save your lineplot as a pdf. Now you can place it in Illustrator as a layer. You can now directly edit the line plot or, if you want to spend the extra time, and retrace the whole thing. Hope this helps! Rick --- In [email protected] , "caveresource" wrote: H- I've looked at this in the past, without much success. The next step I was thinking of doing was to generate a DXF from AI and compare the structure of the DXF exported with one created by Compass. Another option would be to download a copy of MicroStation PowerDraft. It is free, and last time I ran a Compass DXF through it, I was then able to open it in AI. Available at: http://www.be.org/en-US/BE+Careers/PowerDraft+Download.htm Hopefully Larry can find a way to update the DXF export in Compass or switch over to supporting something like SVG since Adobe is heavily invested in that technology. Good luck- Aaron --- In [email protected] , "hkalnitz" wrote: Folks Just went through this over the weekend again and tuned in here to see if there was any previous help/discussion. I went through the discussion from Dec 2006, but really didn't see a good solution, so I am asking if I am missing something. I am trying to import a scaled lineplot on which to lay my sketches. I am used to using Jim Olsens plug in for illustrator 10, but we all know that doesnt work for CS. I can import DXF through Autocad, but it is not scaled correctly, thus if I add survey and update, I will have to redo scaling again and again. My best option so far has been to convert the datafile to walls, and use its export funtion, which will export a scaled WMF, but the fonts are flaky... I would love to see something like Jims plug in, but he is out of the business (I hear he has to pedal a generator 2 miles just to read his e-mail) Any help or updates? Howard I open the .plt file in Aven (Survex). From Aven I export it in SVG.format. And Adobe illustrator reads it. Torstein Torstein Finnesand adresse: Sølve Solfengsvei 4A. 0956 Oslo mobil: 41278803, fasttlf: 21923992 e-post: leses tre-fire ganger i uken e-post: kan ta i mot vedlegg på 10 MB Rick skrev: I've been trying this and it seems like it works pretty good. Go here: http://www.cutepdf.com/Products/CutePDF/writer.asp and download the free .pdf writer. Once it's installed you will be able to save any file as a .pdf.(It will show up as another printer in your printer list.) Save your lineplot as a pdf. Now you can place it in Illustrator as a layer. You can now directly edit the line plot or, if you want to spend the extra time, and retrace the whole thing. Hope this helps! Rick "caveresource" <aaddison@...> wrote: > > > H- > > I've looked at this in the past, without much success. The next step > I was thinking of doing was to generate a DXF from AI and compare the > structure of the DXF exported with one created by Compass. > > Another option would be to download a copy of MicroStation > PowerDraft. It is free, and last time I ran a Compass DXF through > it, I was then able to open it in AI. Available at: > > http://www.be.org/en-US/BE+Careers/PowerDraft+Download.htm > > Hopefully Larry can find a way to update the DXF export in Compass or > switch over to supporting something like SVG since Adobe is heavily > invested in that technology. > > Good luck- > > Aaron > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "hkalnitz" <hkalnitz@> wrote: > > > > Folks > > Just went through this over the weekend again and tuned in here to > see > > if there was any previous help/discussion. I went through the > > discussion from Dec 2006, but really didn't see a good solution, so > I > > am asking if I am missing something. > > I am trying to import a scaled lineplot on which to lay my > sketches. I > > am used to using Jim Olsens plug in for illustrator 10, but we all > > know that doesnt work for CS. > > I can import DXF through Autocad, but it is not scaled correctly, > thus > > if I add survey and update, I will have to redo scaling again and > > again. > > My best option so far has been to convert the datafile to walls, > and > > use its export funtion, which will export a scaled WMF, but the > fonts > > are flaky... > > I would love to see something like Jims plug in, but he is out of > the > > business (I hear he has to pedal a generator 2 miles just to read > his > > e-mail) > > Any help or updates? > > Howard > > >
Messsage #: 71
Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 14:14:31 -0700 From: "Larry Fish" Subject: RE: [compass-users] Re: Compass to Illustrator - Redux Thanks everybody for your input. You have come up with some interesting solution that I didn't know about. Here are few comments: I can import DXF through Autocad, but it is not scaled correctly, thus if I add survey and update, I will have to redo scaling again and again. The DXF data is exported from Compass un-scaled. In other words, if a shot is 100 feet long, the line in the DXF file says it is 100 units long. The basic concept of Autocad is that it is used to for Computer aided design and so the original measurements are always retained in the DXF file. Compass does have a scaling option for the DXF output that allows you to change the DXF file measurements by a certain percentage. For example, if you set the scaling to 50%, the 100-foot shot would be exported as 50-feet. My best option so far has been to convert the datafile to walls, and use its export funtion, which will export a scaled WMF, but the fonts are flaky... Compass can export the data as WMF or EMF. The option is under "Files" then "Save Screen Image" in the Viewer. There is also an option to scale the WMF/EMF files. I don't know how well it works compared to Walls, but it seemed to work fine with all the programs I tried. I would love to see something like Jims plug in, but he is out of the business (I hear he has to pedal a generator 2 miles just to read his e-mail) Any help or updates? I haven't heard anything from Jim Wilson for months and Caver's Digest seems to have vanished. Even his web site hasn't been updated for a long time. I assume that means that Jim has moved on to other things. Hopefully Larry can find a way to update the DXF export in Compass or switch over to supporting something like SVG since Adobe is heavily invested in that technology. Working with the DXF file format over the years has been frustrating. The DXF format was developed by Autocad for their programs and I have always used Autocad as the standard for testing my DXF exports. The frustrating part is that other programs like Corel and Adobe Illustrator change the standard to suit their needs. This forces me to spend a lot of time figuring out what they are doing different and often times what they are doing is completely incompatible with the Autocad standard. It also forces me to buy a lot of this very expensive software just to be sure I maintain compatibility. In general, I plan to support SVG in the near future. Right now, I am spending most of my time reworking the 3D modeling aspects of Compass. For the last 10 years, I have been using the DirectX "Retained Mode" to display 3D passages. With the release of Vista, Microsoft completely dropped support for "Retained Mode" and so I was forced to go a different route. I have chosen to go with OpenGL, which is a cross platform solution that is widely supported. OpenGL doesn't have a "Retained Mode" system, so I have been forced to write my own, which is a major programming task (6-months.) I have made a lot of progress and I have an OpenGL version of CaveX up and running that duplicates most of the functions of the DirectX version. However, there is still a lot more to do to make my "Retained-Mode OpenGl" implementation as flexible and useful as the original. Ultimately, my goal is to integrate the 2D and 3D graphics into the same program instead of having two separate programs with different human interfaces. Thanks again for all your input. Larry. v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }
Messsage #: 72
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 21:48:56 -0000 From: "hkalnitz" Subject: Re: Compass to Illustrator - Redux The DXF data is exported from Compass un-scaled. In other words, if a shot is 100 feet long, the line in the DXF file says it is 100 units long. The basic concept of Autocad is that it is used to for Computer aided design and so the original measurements are always retained in the DXF file. I found this to be correct - however my issues was getting the DXF generated lineplot back OUT of autocad into Illustrator. However based on something Aaron said, I resaved the DXF as a earlier version and then was able to open it in illustrator scaled correctly. I have autocad 2000, and I think I saved the DXF as autocad R12 Compass can export the data as WMF or EMF. The option is under "Files" then "Save Screen Image" in the Viewer. There is also an option to scale the WMF/EMF files. I don't know how well it works compared to Walls, but it seemed to work fine with all the programs I tried. What I would like is to export it at 20 ft to the inch - what DPI would I have to set to get this scale? I am afraid I don't quite follow the help file here. Walls specifically allow me to set this scaling - which is what I use when sketching to scale, and adding notes as they come out of the cave. Having said all of the above, I do have one or two techniques to get what is needed, although they both involve a secondary step. I was hoping I had missed something, but it doesn't seem so. Larry - Don't spend anytime on this - continue your excellent work and this will all go away when you get around to SVG Thanks Howard
Messsage #: 73
Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 01:58:20 -0700 From: "Larry Fish" Subject: RE: [compass-users] Re: Compass to Illustrator - Redux Howard, Thanks for your letter. I did a little more thinking about the problem: What I would like is to export it at 20 ft to the inch - what DPI would I have to set to get this scale? I am afraid I don't quite follow the help file here. Walls specifically allow me to set this scaling - which is what I use when sketching to scale, and adding notes as they come out of the cave. When Windows displays an image on the screen, it does it at a certain number of Dots Per Inch (DPI). It is usually 96 DPI, but it may be a different value. You can find the current value by right clicking on the Windows-Desktop background and selecting the "Properties" option. On the "Settings" page, press the "Advanced Button" and you should see a "DPI" value on the "General Page." When I display an image in Compass, I configure Windows so that the cave plot matches the screen scale. In other words, if the Compass scale is 100 feet per inch, a 100-foot passage will be one inch long. More importantly, if Windows is set to 96 pixels per inch, the shot will be 96 pixels long. (In reality, the actual measured length will depend on the size of the monitor, but the main thing is that Windows thinks its 96 pixels long and thinks that value is one inch.) One of the reasons I do this is because Windows will now guarantee that the printed plot will be exactly to scale no matter what kind of printer or plotter you are using. That saves me having to do anything special with different kinds of printers. With the WMF/EMF files, I can specify the size of the image in pixels, but since I don't know how it will be used, I don't know how it will be displayed. For example, if the image is 100 ft per inch on a 96 pixel-per-inch video display, it will be on 32 feet per inch on a 300x300 printer. As a result, the key thing is knowing the pixels-per-inch of the display device. This is why Compass allows you to adjust the DPI. It's also why it shows what the scale will be at that specified DPI. I'm not sure how Illustrator handles the Meta Files. It could be that it just assumes the DPI is the same as the printer or the screen. If it is the same as the Printer, you could try something like 300, 600 or 1200 DPI, which are typical printer resolutions. Here are some steps you can follow to test that theory: 1. Find out the screen resolution of your system. It is probably 96-dpi, but you probably should check using the method I described above. 2. Use the following equation to calculate the Scale you need: Compass Scale = Desired Scale * (Printer DPI/Screen DPI) As an example, let say you want 100 feet per inch and you are using a printer DPI of 300 and Screen DPI of 96 you'd get the following result: Compass Scale = 100 * (300/96) Compass Scale = 312.50 3. Go to the "Action - "Scale, Magnification, Rotation" option on the menu bar and enter the new scale value. In this case, it would be 312.5. 4. Now go to the WMF/EMF export option and set the DPI to whatever you have chosen for the Printer. In this case it would be 300. The Scale display in the WMF/EMF should now show 100 ft/in. 5. You now should be able to export the Meta File at the proper scale for that DPI. Now read it into Illustrator and see if it works. If it doesn't work the first time, I would try several DPI's like 600, 1200, 2400, etc, because these are common printer resolutions and it is likely that Illustrator is using one of them. At the very least should be able to find something that works by trial and error. If this concept works, I will add a feature that will allow you to set the scale directly in the WMF/EMF dialog box. If it doesn't work, I will look at the problem in more depth when I have some time. Let me know what happens. Larry
Messsage #: 74
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 16:53:29 -0000 From: "Jon Jasper" Subject: 3D PDF Did you know that 3D caves can be displayed with Acrobat? If you have Acrobat 8.1 check this out. http://jonjasper.com/pdf3D/Timpanogos%20Cave%20System.pdf You can if you can find some kind of way to convert Compass's or ArcGIS's Virtual World file .wrl into the adobe Portable Document Format (PDF). The problem is most of the conversion techniques are a bit expensive and inaccessible. Probably the best way is to own Acrobat 3D (http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat3d/). Also the newer 3D CAD software can export directly into a 3D PDF. However, I did not have access to Acrobat 3D, Microstation, or like. I used an updated version of Deep Exploration, a 3D format version software. This software converts .wrl files into a .pdf files. Or you can convert the file in a Universal 3D file (.u3d) which can be imported into Photoshop CS3 extended and Acrobat 7 or better. Being able to import the file into other programs open the ability to a bit of artistic rendering. Acrobat 8.1 is needed to handle acrobat new 3D file compression. The file compression amazingly slims down large .wrl files. The feature is really great for large caves or ArcGIS 3D views. The file compression took the following view of Chosa Draw ACEC outside of Carlsbad taht was about 90 MB in .wrl and created a 2 MB pdf. http://jonjasper.com/pdf3D/Timpanogos%20Cave%20System.pdf So here is the bad news. These software programs are a bit pricy: Acrobat 3D is $699 and Deep Exploration is $1500 for an upgrade. However, both have trial versions.
Messsage #: 75
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 05:29:48 -0000 From: "hkalnitz" Subject: Re: Compass to Illustrator - Redux Larry Sorry for the delay. I did try some of the steps you outlined, with no success. I am afraid I will never sound like I know what I am doing here, because I don't. However the area I seem seem to get hung up on is the fact that I am exporting only a picture of what the screen shows me in the plot. When I reset the scale to approximate what I am drawing the map to (20 ft/in to match my notes) Compass does just that. However now, instead of seeing the entire cave I only see a small section of it. When I export this I only see what is displayed my screen at the time I do the export. Pasted into Illustrator, it is correct, but again it is only that section shown on my screen. From what I can see there is a mismatch between scaling the map correctly and sending the entire data set at once : to get the entire cave onto the screenprint the scale has to much smaller then true scale. Does this explaination make sense? Am I missing something? Howard With the WMF/EMF files, I can specify the size of the image in pixels, but since I don't know how it will be used, I don't know how it will be displayed. For example, if the image is 100 ft per inch on a 96 pixel-per-inch video display, it will be on 32 feet per inch on a 300x300 printer. As a result, the key thing is knowing the pixels-per-inch of the display device. This is why Compass allows you to adjust the DPI. It's also why it shows what the scale will be at that specified DPI. I'm not sure how Illustrator handles the Meta Files. It could be that it just assumes the DPI is the same as the printer or the screen. If it is the same as the Printer, you could try something like 300, 600 or 1200 DPI, which are typical printer resolutions. Here are some steps you can follow to test that theory: 1. Find out the screen resolution of your system. It is probably 96-dpi, but you probably should check using the method I described above. 2. Use the following equation to calculate the Scale you need: Compass Scale = Desired Scale * (Printer DPI/Screen DPI) As an example, let say you want 100 feet per inch and you are using a printer DPI of 300 and Screen DPI of 96 you'd get the following result: Compass Scale = 100 * (300/96) Compass Scale = 312.50
Messsage #: 76
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 21:34:06 -0700 From: "Larry Fish" Subject: RE: [compass-users] Re: Compass to Illustrator - Redux Howard, I did try some of the steps you outlined, with no success. I am afraid I will never sound like I know what I am doing here, because I don't. Don't feel bad. It is a complicated topic. However the area I seem to get hung up on is the fact that I am exporting only a picture of what the screen shows me in the plot. The Windows Meta Files (WMF/EMF) are designed to capture the commands that are sent to Windows when an image is drawn on the screen. When I produce a Meta File, I do it by capturing the commands I would normally send to the screen. As a result, the Meta produces an image that is identical to the image that appears on the screen. Because the screen is a certain size, there is a limit to how much of the cave can be displayed at a particular scale. I may be able to expand the area displayed but that would require an extensive rewrite of the display routines. Meta Files were really not intended as a way of importing cave data into another program. They were really intended as a way of capturing a high quality screen image. As such, it is not much better than a bitmap. The only advantage of a Meta File is that it can be scaled in two dimensions without pixelating. Formats like DXF and Shapefiles truly export the fundamental 3D information about the cave and so they are the preferred export format. It looks like working with Illustrator is going to require that Compass export SVG files. It is already on my list of things to do, but I don't have time to make it happen right now. I'm hoping to have more time later this spring to work on general upgrades to Compass. If I do have time, that will be one of the areas I will spend some time on. Sorry I couldn't be more helpful. Larry _____ From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of hkalnitz Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2008 10:30 PM Subject: [compass-users] Re: Compass to Illustrator - Redux Larry Sorry for the delay. I did try some of the steps you outlined, with no success. I am afraid I will never sound like I know what I am doing here, because I don't. However the area I seem seem to get hung up on is the fact that I am exporting only a picture of what the screen shows me in the plot. When I reset the scale to approximate what I am drawing the map to (20 ft/in to match my notes) Compass does just that. However now, instead of seeing the entire cave I only see a small section of it. When I export this I only see what is displayed my screen at the time I do the export. Pasted into Illustrator, it is correct, but again it is only that section shown on my screen. From what I can see there is a mismatch between scaling the map correctly and sending the entire data set at once : to get the entire cave onto the screenprint the scale has to much smaller then true scale. Does this explaination make sense? Am I missing something? Howard With the WMF/EMF files, I can specify the size of the image in pixels, but since I don't know how it will be used, I don't know how it will be displayed. For example, if the image is 100 ft per inch on a 96 pixel-per-inch video display, it will be on 32 feet per inch on a 300x300 printer. As a result, the key thing is knowing the pixels-per-inch of the display device. This is why Compass allows you to adjust the DPI. It's also why it shows what the scale will be at that specified DPI. I'm not sure how Illustrator handles the Meta Files. It could be that it just assumes the DPI is the same as the printer or the screen. If it is the same as the Printer, you could try something like 300, 600 or 1200 DPI, which are typical printer resolutions. Here are some steps you can follow to test that theory: 1. Find out the screen resolution of your system. It is probably 96-dpi, but you probably should check using the method I described above. 2. Use the following equation to calculate the Scale you need: Compass Scale = Desired Scale * (Printer DPI/Screen DPI) As an example, let say you want 100 feet per inch and you are using a printer DPI of 300 and Screen DPI of 96 you'd get the following result: Compass Scale = 100 * (300/96) Compass Scale = 312.50 v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }
Messsage #: 77
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 19:57:52 -0000 From: "caveresource" Subject: Re: Compass to Illustrator - Redux I tried this today with success: 1. Open plt file in viewer 2. Set desired scale (Action-Scale) 3. Set printer driver to Adobe PDF (File-Printer setup) 4. Set page size to cover entire area of interest (plot area) 5. Print to PDF 6. Start Adobe Illustrator and open PDF 7. Scale should be correct (at least it was on mine and printed true) Notes: A. By default Compass appears to make the vectors 1 pixel wide. This can be problematic when printing from AI. Make the adjustments in the File-Printer options-Settings tab or select all vectors and increase stroke width in AI. BTW: 1 pixel = 0.06in B. Of course you'll need a PDF print driver for this workflow. You have this if you purchased AI or Adobe Acrobat Professional. Other options would be to try one of the free PDF printer drivers or to investigate printing to a postscript file and running that through something like ghostscript. Cheers- Aaron
Messsage #: 78
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 15:04:13 -0700 From: "Larry Fish" Subject: RE: [compass-users] Re: Compass to Illustrator - Redux Aaron, Thanks for this great information. Since I don't have a copy of Illustrator, I don't have a way to experiment with scales and different input options. I think it probably solves the problem until I have time to add SVG support. Larry _____ From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of caveresource Sent: Monday, January 28, 2008 12:58 PM Subject: [compass-users] Re: Compass to Illustrator - Redux I tried this today with success: 1. Open plt file in viewer 2. Set desired scale (Action-Scale) 3. Set printer driver to Adobe PDF (File-Printer setup) 4. Set page size to cover entire area of interest (plot area) 5. Print to PDF 6. Start Adobe Illustrator and open PDF 7. Scale should be correct (at least it was on mine and printed true) Notes: A. By default Compass appears to make the vectors 1 pixel wide. This can be problematic when printing from AI. Make the adjustments in the File-Printer options-Settings tab or select all vectors and increase stroke width in AI. BTW: 1 pixel = 0.06in B. Of course you'll need a PDF print driver for this workflow. You have this if you purchased AI or Adobe Acrobat Professional. Other options would be to try one of the free PDF printer drivers or to investigate printing to a postscript file and running that through something like ghostscript. Cheers- Aaron v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }
Messsage #: 79
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 22:53:14 -0000 From: "caveguenter" Subject: Load Bitmap Adjust Bitmap and so on Hi all together, after a long time of rest I have again reached a point were I have to cry for help. The main problem/wish is to have a fixed topografic bitmap which fits my cave, so no further zooming is necessary, adjusting manually the position is ok, but I want to have a bitmap, which fits my cave, if I use the scale of 100 Meter/cm, so that I don't have to rezoom it again and again. First: Whenever I lock a bitmap, the bitmap shrinks on the screen, where is the switch to stop that shrinking? I thought, that locking means just zooming the bitmap with the cave, _if_ I would do so. But it shrinks immediately, just by setting the 'Lock image to Cave' check mark. (Version 5.07.8.29.243 of the Plot Viewer) Second: With my cave at a scale of 100 Meter/cm I tried to prepare a topografic bitmap, which fits. But it does not. I think, that some/thing/one changes the DPI or whatever. What are the real conversion figures to adapt my bitmap? My topografic bitmap has 4000*3000 pixel at 72ppi (28,346 pixel/cm). 4000 pixel equals 5 km in nature. (At least this is what I can see in Photoshop) If I load it into Compass, the image size is shown (Adjust Bitmap Background) as 4000*3000 pixel and also is shown that this equals 6699 (X) * 5024,3 (Y) Meters at a scale of 1.00. What has changed? And locking does shrink my bitmap (not the polygon) by a certain factor. Btw. the Image Position shows always only the indication "Ft." not "M.", but it really changes the values to Meter or Feet. Thanks Guenter
Messsage #: 80
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 20:32:35 -0700 From: "Larry Fish" Subject: RE: [compass-users] Load Bitmap Adjust Bitmap and so on Hi Guenter, Thanks for your letter. after a long time of rest I have again reached a point were I have to cry for help. Sorry you are having trouble getting your bitmap to align with the plot. These tools are pretty complicated and take a bit of practice to get them to work right. The main problem/wish is to have a fixed topografic bitmap which fits my cave, so no further zooming is necessary, adjusting manually the position is ok, but I want to have a bitmap, which fits my cave, if I use the scale of 100 Meter/cm, so that I don't have to rezoom it again and again. The scaling values that are contained in bitmap images are very seldom accurate. On the other hand, the cave survey is generally much more accurate since it is made up of dozens of hand measurements. For that reason, Compass ignores the scale values you find inside a bitmap. As a result, the process of matching a cave to a bitmap is done by re-scaling the image, not the cave. When you set the cave's scaling to 100 Meters/cm your are only setting it for the purpose of printing or display. It does not have an effect on matching the cave to a bitmap. First: Whenever I lock a bitmap, the bitmap shrinks on the screen, where is the switch to stop that shrinking? Again, Compass adjusts the bitmap to fit the cave, not the other way around. The bitmap shrinks because you have already zoomed the cave to a different size/scale. When you enable the "Lock-Image-To-Cave" option, the program realizes that you have changed the size of the cave and it resizes the bitmap to match. Second: With my cave at a scale of 100 Meter/cm I tried to prepare a topografic bitmap, which fits. But it does not. I think, that some/thing/one changes the DPI or whatever. What are the real conversion figures to adapt my bitmap? My topografic bitmap has 4000*3000 pixel at 72ppi (28,346 pixel/cm). 4000 pixel equals 5 km in nature. (At least this is what I can see in Photoshop) The values you see in Photoshop may not even be included in the bitmap and so Compass does not even attempt to use them. Here are the steps you need to take to adjust a bitmap to match your cave. 1. Load the cave data into the Compass Viewer. Don't worry about the cave scale factor at this point. 2. Load the bitmap into the Viewer using the "File - Load Bitmap" option from the Menu Bar. 3. Select the "File - Adjust Bitmap" option from the Menu Bar. 4. Immediately turn on the "Lock-Image-To-Cave" option. 5. Now use the "Move Bitmap" buttons to move the Bitmap so the location of the entrance matches the entrance on the plot of the cave. 6. Now adjust the Scale so the bitmap is the proper size for the cave. This is hardest part. I usually try to find something on the bitmap that is of a known size. For example, if it a topographic map, you can usually find grid lines, a length of road, a lake or just any two land marks. If you measure their distance on the topographic map, you will know how long they should be in relation to the cave. Once you have identified an object of a known size, select the "Tools - Measure Distance/Angles" option in Compass. This will allow you to measure the size of the object on the bitmap. If the object measures too big or too small, adjust the Bitmap Scale in the "Adjust Bitmap Background" window. Keep re-measuring and adjusting until the error is very small. 7. Final step is to adjust the rotation. If you have used the proper Declination on all your survey files, the cave should be aligned to True North. If the bitmap is also aligned to True North, then you won't have to do any rotating. However, if the cave does not have any declinations and the cave plot will be aligned to magnetic north and so you may have to rotate the bitmap. Likewise, many bitmap images are not aligned to True north. If that is the case, then you will also have to do some rotating. In all this process, you can use the regular Pan, Zoom and Rotate options in Compass to position the cave and the bitmap where you want. Since you have locked the cave and the bitmap together, changing the overall rotation, pan and zoom position won't affect the relative position of the cave and bitmap. 8. Once the Bitmap and the Cave have been adjusted to match each other, you can now close all the "Tool" windows and navigate as would normally do in Compass. You can zoom, pan and rotate, and the cave and bitmap image will track each other. You can now set the overall Scale to any value you want (including 100 meters/cm) and the cave and bitmap will print at that scale. The value is set using the "Action - Scale, Magnification, Rotation" option from the menu bar. There are couple caveats with this process: First, very large bitmaps may be slow to update, particularly when you do any rotations. This is dependent on the kind of computer you have and the graphic card drivers. Your bitmap is 3000x4000, which is pretty large. If the update rate is intolerably long, Compass offers you the option of reducing the image size. Even a small reduction in size can speed things up a lot. For example, cutting the size in half will increase the speed by four times. Second, there is a bug in the rotation routines that sometimes causes shifts in the position of the cave relative to the bitmap. It only happens under certain circumstance and I haven't' had time to track down the problem. (Besides, I may just shift over to using OpenGL, which may be a better solution.) In any case, be aware of the problem. You can usually avoid it if you don't rotate the cave. Btw. the Image Position shows always only the indication "Ft." not "M.", but it really changes the values to Meter or Feet. Yes, thank you. It is a bug and I have just fixed it. There is a new version of Compass on the Internet with the problem fixed. Thanks again for your letter. I hope it helps you solve the problem. Larry _____ From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of caveguenter Sent: Monday, February 11, 2008 3:53 PM Subject: [compass-users] Load Bitmap Adjust Bitmap and so on Hi all together, after a long time of rest I have again reached a point were I have to cry for help. The main problem/wish is to have a fixed topografic bitmap which fits my cave, so no further zooming is necessary, adjusting manually the position is ok, but I want to have a bitmap, which fits my cave, if I use the scale of 100 Meter/cm, so that I don't have to rezoom it again and again. First: Whenever I lock a bitmap, the bitmap shrinks on the screen, where is the switch to stop that shrinking? I thought, that locking means just zooming the bitmap with the cave, _if_ I would do so. But it shrinks immediately, just by setting the 'Lock image to Cave' check mark. (Version 5.07.8.29.243 of the Plot Viewer) Second: With my cave at a scale of 100 Meter/cm I tried to prepare a topografic bitmap, which fits. But it does not. I think, that some/thing/one changes the DPI or whatever. What are the real conversion figures to adapt my bitmap? My topografic bitmap has 4000*3000 pixel at 72ppi (28,346 pixel/cm). 4000 pixel equals 5 km in nature. (At least this is what I can see in Photoshop) If I load it into Compass, the image size is shown (Adjust Bitmap Background) as 4000*3000 pixel and also is shown that this equals 6699 (X) * 5024,3 (Y) Meters at a scale of 1.00. What has changed? And locking does shrink my bitmap (not the polygon) by a certain factor. Btw. the Image Position shows always only the indication "Ft." not "M.", but it really changes the values to Meter or Feet. Thanks Guenter v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }
Messsage #: 81
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 10:00:51 -0000 From: "caveguenter" Subject: Re: Load Bitmap Adjust Bitmap and so on Hi Larry, thank you for your long letter. At least I know now that I did not overlook an important fact in using bitmaps. Hi Guenter, Thanks for your letter. after a long time of rest I have again reached a point were I have to cry for help. Sorry you are having trouble getting your bitmap to align with the plot. These tools are pretty complicated and take a bit of practice to get them to work right. The main problem/wish is to have a fixed topografic bitmap which fits my cave, so no further zooming is necessary, adjusting manually the position is ok, but I want to have a bitmap, which fits my cave, if I use the scale of 100 Meter/cm, so that I don't have to rezoom it again and again. The scaling values that are contained in bitmap images are very seldom accurate. On the other hand, the cave survey is generally much more accurate since it is made up of dozens of hand measurements. For that reason, Compass ignores the scale values you find inside a bitmap. As a result, the process of matching a cave to a bitmap is done by re-scaling the image, not the cave. When you set the cave's scaling to 100 Meters/cm your are only setting it for the purpose of printing or display. It does not have an effect on matching the cave to a bitmap. First: Whenever I lock a bitmap, the bitmap shrinks on the screen, where is the switch to stop that shrinking? Again, Compass adjusts the bitmap to fit the cave, not the other way around. The bitmap shrinks because you have already zoomed the cave to a different size/scale. When you enable the "Lock-Image-To-Cave" option, the program realizes that you have changed the size of the cave and it resizes the bitmap to match. Ok understood, This was my failure! Second: With my cave at a scale of 100 Meter/cm I tried to prepare a topografic bitmap, which fits. But it does not. I think, that some/thing/one changes the DPI or whatever. What are the real conversion figures to adapt my bitmap? My topografic bitmap has 4000*3000 pixel at 72ppi (28,346 pixel/cm). 4000 pixel equals 5 km in nature. (At least this is what I can see in Photoshop) The values you see in Photoshop may not even be included in the bitmap and so Compass does not even attempt to use them. I was just confused, because Compass showed me a height a a width in km of my bitmap. Here are the steps you need to take to adjust a bitmap to match your cave. 1. Load the cave data into the Compass Viewer. Don't worry about the cave scale factor at this point. 2. Load the bitmap into the Viewer using the "File - Load Bitmap" option from the Menu Bar. 3. Select the "File - Adjust Bitmap" option from the Menu Bar. 4. Immediately turn on the "Lock-Image-To-Cave" option. 5. Now use the "Move Bitmap" buttons to move the Bitmap so the location of the entrance matches the entrance on the plot of the cave. 6. Now adjust the Scale so the bitmap is the proper size for the cave. This is hardest part. Shure, I fully aggree ;-). And that started my thinking that I might have overseen a major part. Because after each zooming step, I have to move the bitmap again. Because of this zooming, my cave entrie moves away from its proper point. I cant fix the cave entry of the cave to the cave entry on the bitmap. So every zooming action is accompanied by a moving action, over and over. I usually try to find something on the bitmap that is of a known size. For example, if it a topographic map, you can usually find grid lines, a length of road, a lake or just any two land marks. If you measure their distance on the topographic map, you will know how long they should be in relation to the cave. Once you have identified an object of a known size, select the "Tools - Measure Distance/Angles" option in Compass. This will allow you to measure the size of the object on the bitmap. If the object measures too big or too small, adjust the Bitmap Scale in the "Adjust Bitmap Background" window. Keep re-measuring and adjusting until the error is very small. 7. Final step is to adjust the rotation. If you have used the proper Declination on all your survey files, the cave should be aligned to True North. If the bitmap is also aligned to True North, then you won't have to do any rotating. However, if the cave does not have any declinations and the cave plot will be aligned to magnetic north and so you may have to rotate the bitmap. Likewise, many bitmap images are not aligned to True north. If that is the case, then you will also have to do some rotating. In all this process, you can use the regular Pan, Zoom and Rotate options in Compass to position the cave and the bitmap where you want. Since you have locked the cave and the bitmap together, changing the overall rotation, pan and zoom position won't affect the relative position of the cave and bitmap. 8. Once the Bitmap and the Cave have been adjusted to match each other, you can now close all the "Tool" windows and navigate as would normally do in Compass. You can zoom, pan and rotate, and the cave and bitmap image will track each other. You can now set the overall Scale to any value you want (including 100 meters/cm) and the cave and bitmap will print at that scale. The value is set using the "Action - Scale, Magnification, Rotation" option from the menu bar. There are couple caveats with this process: First, very large bitmaps may be slow to update, particularly when you do any rotations. This is dependent on the kind of computer you have and the graphic card drivers. Your bitmap is 3000x4000, which is pretty large. If the update rate is intolerably long, Compass offers you the option of reducing the image size. Even a small reduction in size can speed things up a lot. For example, cutting the size in half will increase the speed by four times. I am using a part out of an official topografic map, where I exactly now how long a point is and what coordinates are were. That is why I did not change it. It does not really remarkably slow down my PC, so at first I can live with it. Second, there is a bug in the rotation routines that sometimes causes shifts in the position of the cave relative to the bitmap. It only happens under certain circumstance and I haven't' had time to track down the problem. (Besides, I may just shift over to using OpenGL, which may be a better solution.) In any case, be aware of the problem. You can usually avoid it if you don't rotate the cave. Btw. the Image Position shows always only the indication "Ft." not "M.", but it really changes the values to Meter or Feet. Yes, thank you. It is a bug and I have just fixed it. There is a new version of Compass on the Internet with the problem fixed. Thanks again for your letter. I hope it helps you solve the problem. Larry Thanks again for your letter. I hope it helps you solve the problem. Larry Thank you for your help. I would like to report another small 'feature', which is not serious at all: If I edit a bitmap and want to save it with a name, say 'mycave', and I forget to explicitely write the suffix, the software creates a file with 0 bytes in it, called 'mycave'. So next time you might see our cave with an underlying topographic map, saturated over and over by my drops of sweat. Greetings Guenter www.hoelloch.de _____ From: [email protected] [mailto:compass- [email protected]] On Behalf Of caveguenter Sent: Monday, February 11, 2008 3:53 PM To: [email protected] Subject: [compass-users] Load Bitmap Adjust Bitmap and so on Hi all together, after a long time of rest I have again reached a point were I have to cry for help. The main problem/wish is to have a fixed topografic bitmap which fits my cave, so no further zooming is necessary, adjusting manually the position is ok, but I want to have a bitmap, which fits my cave, if I use the scale of 100 Meter/cm, so that I don't have to rezoom it again and again. First: Whenever I lock a bitmap, the bitmap shrinks on the screen, where is the switch to stop that shrinking? I thought, that locking means just zooming the bitmap with the cave, _if_ I would do so. But it shrinks immediately, just by setting the 'Lock image to Cave' check mark. (Version 5.07.8.29.243 of the Plot Viewer) Second: With my cave at a scale of 100 Meter/cm I tried to prepare a topografic bitmap, which fits. But it does not. I think, that some/thing/one changes the DPI or whatever. What are the real conversion figures to adapt my bitmap? My topografic bitmap has 4000*3000 pixel at 72ppi (28,346 pixel/cm). 4000 pixel equals 5 km in nature. (At least this is what I can see in Photoshop) If I load it into Compass, the image size is shown (Adjust Bitmap Background) as 4000*3000 pixel and also is shown that this equals 6699 (X) * 5024,3 (Y) Meters at a scale of 1.00. What has changed? And locking does shrink my bitmap (not the polygon) by a certain factor. Btw. the Image Position shows always only the indication "Ft." not "M.", but it really changes the values to Meter or Feet. Thanks Guenter
Messsage #: 82
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 18:52:41 +0100 From: Roger Schuster Subject: different behavior of Cave Editor Hi there, after a long pause I am now back! I observed some odd behavior in Compass which is probably a bug. If I fire up Cave Editor from the Windows Start Menu or from Project Manager with "Run Editor manually" it uses my user preferences for instrument order (Length, Inclination, Compass) and units (Meters and Degrees). But if I use "Create new survey file" in Project Manager and open the new file by clicking "Edit Cave Survey or File" the editor uses its factory settings Length, Compass, Inclination and Decimal Feet. This is confusing. Regards Roger Roger Schuster E-Mail [email protected] Web http://www.r-schuster.de Verschl�sselte Mails erw�nscht: / Encrypted Mails preferred: Public GPG keys: http://www.r-schuster.de/crypto/
Messsage #: 83
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 20:14:10 -0600 From: "Larry Fish" Subject: RE: [compass-users] different behavior of Cave Editor Hi Roger, Thanks for your email. The problem with Project Manager default units is that the Units information for the file is contained in the survey file itself, so I had over looked the possibility of setting the files default to the default for Project Manager. I have changed the Project Manager so that when it creates a new file, the survey is set to the default units for the Project Manager. You also have the option of changing them on the fly at the point where you enter the survey name. There is a new version of the Compass on the inter net with the changes. There are a bunch of other units that apply to new surveys, but I didn't think they were as important as the Meter/Feet issue. As a result, you will have to go to Editor to set things like the shot order, etc. Larry From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Roger Schuster Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 11:53 AM Subject: [compass-users] different behavior of Cave Editor Hi there, after a long pause I am now back! I observed some odd behavior in Compass which is probably a bug. If I fire up Cave Editor from the Windows Start Menu or from Project Manager with "Run Editor manually" it uses my user preferences for instrument order (Length, Inclination, Compass) and units (Meters and Degrees). But if I use "Create new survey file" in Project Manager and open the new file by clicking "Edit Cave Survey or File" the editor uses its factory settings Length, Compass, Inclination and Decimal Feet. This is confusing. Regards Roger Roger Schuster E-Mail [email protected] Web http://www.r-schuster.de Verschl�sselte Mails erw�nscht: / Encrypted Mails preferred: Public GPG keys: http://www.r-schuster.de/crypto/ Yahoo! Groups Links
Messsage #: 84
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 09:32:19 +0100 From: Roger Schuster Subject: Re: [compass-users] different behavior of Cave Editor Hi Larry, can't Project Manager access the configuration of Cave Editor and create the new survey file with the user settings from Editor? The .ini files of both are in the same directory. Roger Larry Fish schrieb: Hi Roger, Thanks for your email. The problem with Project Manager default units is that the Units information for the file is contained in the survey file itself, so I had over looked the possibility of setting the files default to the default for Project Manager. I have changed the Project Manager so that when it creates a new file, the survey is set to the default units for the Project Manager. You also have the option of changing them on the fly at the point where you enter the survey name. There is a new version of the Compass on the inter net with the changes. There are a bunch of other units that apply to new surveys, but I didn't think they were as important as the Meter/Feet issue. As a result, you will have to go to Editor to set things like the shot order, etc. Larry -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Roger Schuster Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 11:53 AM To: [email protected] Subject: [compass-users] different behavior of Cave Editor Hi there, after a long pause I am now back! I observed some odd behavior in Compass which is probably a bug. If I fire up Cave Editor from the Windows Start Menu or from Project Manager with "Run Editor manually" it uses my user preferences for instrument order (Length, Inclination, Compass) and units (Meters and Degrees). But if I use "Create new survey file" in Project Manager and open the new file by clicking "Edit Cave Survey or File" the editor uses its factory settings Length, Compass, Inclination and Decimal Feet. This is confusing. Regards Roger Roger Schuster E-Mail [email protected] Web http://www.r-schuster.de Verschl�sselte Mails erw�nscht: / Encrypted Mails preferred: Public GPG keys: http://www.r-schuster.de/crypto/
Messsage #: 85
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 03:07:17 -0600 From: "Larry Fish" Subject: RE: [compass-users] different behavior of Cave Editor Roger, can't Project Manager access the configuration of Cave Editor and create the new survey file with the user settings from Editor? The .ini files of both are in the same directory. The Project Manager can access the Editor's INI file, but the INI file doesn't contain any default information other than whether we are using the Meters or Feet. The Project Manager has its own INI file that also contains Meters/Feet setting. These are usually used to control what the Editor or the Project Manager displays for various statistics. The real information is contained in the Survey files and it can be different for each individual survey. As a result, every time you open a new survey or load a new file, the units and the order of items can change. I know of several surveys where there is a mixture of feet and meters. I even know of surveys that contain mixtures of all kinds of units, including feet and inches, Grads and Quads. As a result, the default units are only meaningful for creating new surveys. The changes I just made should allow you to have the correct units no matter whether you create the new survey in the Editor or the Project manager. I suppose I should have a default value for the order of the items and other units such as degrees, so that new surveys would default to user-specified format. However, I'm a little concerned about confusing people. To setup a default, it will have to be done separately from the setting the current survey. I can easily imagine people getting confused and setting the default when they meant to set the current survey and vise versa. I can also picture trying to explain it all in an email when I get a complaint. Larry. v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
Messsage #: 86
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 11:09:15 +0100 From: Roger Schuster Subject: Re: [compass-users] different behavior of Cave Editor Hi Larry, Larry Fish schrieb: I suppose I should have a default value for the order of the items and other units such as degrees, so that new surveys would default to user-specified format. However, I'm a little concerned about confusing people. To setup a default, it will have to be done separately from the setting the current survey. I can easily imagine people getting confused and setting the default when they meant to set the current survey and vise versa. I can also picture trying to explain it all in an email when I get a complaint. I got the point and understand your concerns. At the other hand I am not sure what is more confusing: Creating a new survey which makes use of the "factory settings" and which must be changed each time to the settings for the individual survey or creating a new survey which defaults to the user settings and must only be changed if the settings are different from your common style. In my opinion it would be best if Project Manager reads the user settings from CaveEd32.ini and uses them for the new survey. Putting a "global user settings" dialog in Project Manager would really be confusing. What do the other cavers here think? Roger Roger Schuster E-Mail [email protected] Web http://www.r-schuster.de Verschl�sselte Mails erw�nscht: / Encrypted Mails preferred: Public GPG keys: http://www.r-schuster.de/crypto/
Messsage #: 87
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 05:56:08 -0600 From: "Larry Fish" Subject: RE: [compass-users] different behavior of Cave Editor Hi Roger, After thinking about it for a while, I think I have a better idea of what you want. As a result, I have made several changes to Compass that I think will solve all your problems. Since the defaults can change whenever you load a survey, I was concerned that saving user settings at the wrong time could overwrite the survey defaults. For that reason, I have separated the two functions by adding a separate menu item that allows you to save the default settings without affecting the current survey's settings. Likewise, you can change the current survey's settings without affecting the default settings. The new option can be found under the "Options | Default Settings (For New Surveys)" item on the menu bar. This is the now the only way you can set the default format. As a result, the program will not remember your old settings from the previous version, so you will need to set and save the Defaults the first time you use the new version. The Project Manager now takes its default setting from the Editor's settings when it creates a new files. There is a new version of Compass up on the Internet. Let me know if it does what you wanted it do. Larry
Messsage #: 88
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 16:17:24 +0100 From: Roger Schuster Subject: Re: [compass-users] different behavior of Cave Editor Larry Fish schrieb: Hi Larry, After thinking about it for a while, I think I have a better idea of what you want. As a result, I have made several changes to Compass that I think will solve all your problems. You are great! This new release does exactly what I want. Thank you! Roger Roger Schuster E-Mail [email protected] Web http://www.r-schuster.de Verschl�sselte Mails erw�nscht: / Encrypted Mails preferred: Public GPG keys: http://www.r-schuster.de/crypto/
Messsage #: 89
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 12:16:26 -0000 From: "caveresource" Subject: Adding Fixed Stations Hi everyone, We ran across some weirdness last week during the WKU cave surveying course while trying to add fixed station(s) to a DAT file. I was wondering if anyone else has experienced this? The steps to reproduce the problem are outlined below. Maybe we were doing something wrong? 1. Create a new empty project (MAK) file. 2. Import an existing DAT file (this even works with the Fulford data) 3. Right mouse click the DAT file and select "Edit Node" 4. Click the tab that says "Fixed Station" 5. Click in the station box and enter a station, tab over and enter the XY coordinates. 6. When happy with the coordinates, click OK. The dialog box closes... 7. Reopen the dialog box and your coordinates are gone! 8. If you enter your coordinates in the UTM Geographic Calculator within the "Fixed Station" tab of the "Edit Node" dialog, they will be passed to the fields described in Step 5. They will also persist if the dialog is closed and reopened (Step 7). So, there appears to be a workaround, but I can't imagine that this is a case of "works as designed"? Cheers, Aaron
Messsage #: 90
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 11:15:47 -0500 From: "John Lovaas" Subject: re: Adding Fixed Stations Howdy Aaron- I've had the same issue. Sometimes I wasn't sure if it was the software or short term memory loss; "did I really enter those coords...?" ;-) So I haven't brought it up because I thought it might be my own buffonery. I'm usually working the way you do- creating a new MAK file to link to an existing DAT file. I find myself occasionally having to enter the coordinates 2 or 3 times, on occasion, before they "stick". Sometimes it "sticks" right away. My COMPASS version is 5.08.3.27.145 jl Howdy Aaron- I've had the same issue. Sometimes I wasn't sure if it was the software or short term memory loss; "did I really enter those coords...?" ;-) So I haven't brought it up because I thought it might be my own buffonery. I'm usually working the way you do- creating a new MAK file to link to an existing DAT file. I find myself occasionally having to enter the coordinates 2 or 3 times, on occasion, before they "stick". Sometimes it "sticks" right away. My COMPASS version is 5.08.3.27.145 jl
Messsage #: 91
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 18:20:50 +0200 From: "Paul De Bie" Subject: RE: [compass-users] Adding Fixed Stations Hi, obvious question but nevertheless: did you save your changes to the MAK file? I have no problems here. Paul De Bie http://www.scavalon.be http://scavalon.blogspot.com http://pollekepik.blogspot.com -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of caveresource Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 2:16 PM To: [email protected] Subject: [compass-users] Adding Fixed Stations Hi everyone, We ran across some weirdness last week during the WKU cave surveying course while trying to add fixed station(s) to a DAT file. I was wondering if anyone else has experienced this? The steps to reproduce the problem are outlined below. Maybe we were doing something wrong? 1. Create a new empty project (MAK) file. 2. Import an existing DAT file (this even works with the Fulford data) 3. Right mouse click the DAT file and select "Edit Node" 4. Click the tab that says "Fixed Station" 5. Click in the station box and enter a station, tab over and enter the XY coordinates. 6. When happy with the coordinates, click OK. The dialog box closes... 7. Reopen the dialog box and your coordinates are gone! 8. If you enter your coordinates in the UTM Geographic Calculator within the "Fixed Station" tab of the "Edit Node" dialog, they will be passed to the fields described in Step 5. They will also persist if the dialog is closed and reopened (Step 7). So, there appears to be a workaround, but I can't imagine that this is a case of "works as designed"? Cheers, Aaron ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links
Messsage #: 92
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 18:22:11 +0200 From: "Paul De Bie" Subject: RE: [compass-users] re: Adding Fixed Stations you can also edit the MAK file with notepad :-) Paul De Bie http://www.scavalon.be http://scavalon.blogspot.com http://pollekepik.blogspot.com _____ From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of John Lovaas Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 6:16 PM Subject: [compass-users] re: Adding Fixed Stations Howdy Aaron- I've had the same issue. Sometimes I wasn't sure if it was the software or short term memory loss; "did I really enter those coords...?" ;-) So I haven't brought it up because I thought it might be my own buffonery. I'm usually working the way you do- creating a new MAK file to link to an existing DAT file. I find myself occasionally having to enter the coordinates 2 or 3 times, on occasion, before they "stick". Sometimes it "sticks" right away. My COMPASS version is 5.08.3.27.145 jl you can also edit the MAK file with notepad :-) Paul De Biehttp://www.scavalon.behttp://scavalon.blogspot.comhttp://pollekepik.blogspot.com From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of John LovaasSent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 6:16 PMTo: compass-usersSubject: [compass-users] re: Adding Fixed Stations Howdy Aaron- I've had the same issue. Sometimes I wasn't sure if it was the software or short term memory loss; "did I really enter those coords...?" ;-) So I haven't brought it up because I thought it might be my own buffonery. I'm usually working the way you do- creating a new MAK file to link to an existing DAT file. I find myself occasionally having to enter the coordinates 2 or 3 times, on occasion, before they "stick". Sometimes it "sticks" right away. My COMPASS version is 5.08.3.27.145 jl
Messsage #: 93
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 17:50:43 -0000 From: "Rick" Subject: Re: Adding Fixed Stations Paul beat me to it. Save your MAK file right away. Hi everyone, We ran across some weirdness last week during the WKU cave surveying course while trying to add fixed station(s) to a DAT file. I was wondering if anyone else has experienced this? The steps to reproduce the problem are outlined below. Maybe we were doing something wrong? 1. Create a new empty project (MAK) file. 2. Import an existing DAT file (this even works with the Fulford data) 3. Right mouse click the DAT file and select "Edit Node" 4. Click the tab that says "Fixed Station" 5. Click in the station box and enter a station, tab over and enter the XY coordinates. 6. When happy with the coordinates, click OK. The dialog box closes... 7. Reopen the dialog box and your coordinates are gone! 8. If you enter your coordinates in the UTM Geographic Calculator within the "Fixed Station" tab of the "Edit Node" dialog, they will be passed to the fields described in Step 5. They will also persist if the dialog is closed and reopened (Step 7). So, there appears to be a workaround, but I can't imagine that this is a case of "works as designed"? Cheers, Aaron
Messsage #: 94
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 12:54:44 -0500 From: "Aaron Addison" Subject: RE: [compass-users] Re: Adding Fixed Stations I'm not sure that's the problem (however I did save it). The problem occurs even if you immediately go back in to the dialog box after entering the data. At that point whatever you would be "saving" would be blank anyway. Aaron ________________________________________ Aaron Addison University GIS Coordinator Washington University in St. Louis Campus Box 1169 One Brookings Drive St. Louis, MO 63130-4899 314 935 6198 - office [email protected] ________________________________________ From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Rick Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 12:51 PM Subject: [compass-users] Re: Adding Fixed Stations Paul beat me to it. Save your MAK file right away. wrote: Hi everyone, We ran across some weirdness last week during the WKU cave surveying course while trying to add fixed station(s) to a DAT file. I was wondering if anyone else has experienced this? The steps to reproduce the problem are outlined below. Maybe we were doing something wrong? 1. Create a new empty project (MAK) file. 2. Import an existing DAT file (this even works with the Fulford data) 3. Right mouse click the DAT file and select "Edit Node" 4. Click the tab that says "Fixed Station" 5. Click in the station box and enter a station, tab over and enter the XY coordinates. 6. When happy with the coordinates, click OK. The dialog box closes... 7. Reopen the dialog box and your coordinates are gone! 8. If you enter your coordinates in the UTM Geographic Calculator within the "Fixed Station" tab of the "Edit Node" dialog, they will be passed to the fields described in Step 5. They will also persist if the dialog is closed and reopened (Step 7). So, there appears to be a workaround, but I can't imagine that this is a case of "works as designed"? Cheers, Aaron
Messsage #: 95
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 18:23:41 -0000 From: "Rick" Subject: Re: Adding Fixed Stations I just went through the exact steps as you outlined them. The node info doesn't disappear on me, even without saving the MAK file. Do you have the latest version of Compass? wrote: I'm not sure that's the problem (however I did save it). The problem occurs even if you immediately go back in to the dialog box after entering the data. At that point whatever you would be "saving" would be blank anyway. Aaron ________________________________________ Aaron Addison University GIS Coordinator Washington University in St. Louis Campus Box 1169 One Brookings Drive St. Louis, MO 63130-4899 314 935 6198 - office aaddison@... ________________________________________ From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Rick Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 12:51 PM To: [email protected] Subject: [compass-users] Re: Adding Fixed Stations Paul beat me to it. Save your MAK file right away. --- In [email protected], "caveresource" wrote: Hi everyone, We ran across some weirdness last week during the WKU cave surveying course while trying to add fixed station(s) to a DAT file. I was wondering if anyone else has experienced this? The steps to reproduce the problem are outlined below. Maybe we were doing something wrong? 1. Create a new empty project (MAK) file. 2. Import an existing DAT file (this even works with the Fulford data) 3. Right mouse click the DAT file and select "Edit Node" 4. Click the tab that says "Fixed Station" 5. Click in the station box and enter a station, tab over and enter the XY coordinates. 6. When happy with the coordinates, click OK. The dialog box closes... 7. Reopen the dialog box and your coordinates are gone! 8. If you enter your coordinates in the UTM Geographic Calculator within the "Fixed Station" tab of the "Edit Node" dialog, they will be passed to the fields described in Step 5. They will also persist if the dialog is closed and reopened (Step 7). So, there appears to be a workaround, but I can't imagine that this is a case of "works as designed"? Cheers, Aaron
Messsage #: 96
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 18:38:32 -0000 From: "ericmweaver2003" Subject: Re: Adding Fixed Stations wrote: I'm not sure that's the problem (however I did save it). The problem occurs even if you immediately go back in to the dialog box after entering the data. At that point whatever you would be "saving" would be blank anyway. Aaron ________________________________________ Aaron Addison University GIS Coordinator Washington University in St. Louis Campus Box 1169 One Brookings Drive St. Louis, MO 63130-4899 314 935 6198 - office aaddison@... ________________________________________ From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Rick Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 12:51 PM To: [email protected] Subject: [compass-users] Re: Adding Fixed Stations Paul beat me to it. Save your MAK file right away. --- In [email protected], "caveresource" wrote: Hi everyone, We ran across some weirdness last week during the WKU cave surveying course while trying to add fixed station(s) to a DAT file. I was wondering if anyone else has experienced this? The steps to reproduce the problem are outlined below. Maybe we were doing something wrong? 1. Create a new empty project (MAK) file. 2. Import an existing DAT file (this even works with the Fulford data) 3. Right mouse click the DAT file and select "Edit Node" 4. Click the tab that says "Fixed Station" 5. Click in the station box and enter a station, tab over and enter the XY coordinates. 6. When happy with the coordinates, click OK. The dialog box closes... 7. Reopen the dialog box and your coordinates are gone! 8. If you enter your coordinates in the UTM Geographic Calculator within the "Fixed Station" tab of the "Edit Node" dialog, they will be passed to the fields described in Step 5. They will also persist if the dialog is closed and reopened (Step 7). So, there appears to be a workaround, but I can't imagine that this is a case of "works as designed"? Cheers, Aaron I have had the same problem in the past and have used the same workaround. I didn't think it was an issue about saving a MAK file, realistically there isn't a spot to save it before the data would be erased. However, I just tried to re-create the problem and wasn't able to do so. I am using Compass version 5.06.12.28.132 ...it looks like Rick just had the same experience.
Messsage #: 97
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 16:08:33 -0500 From: "Aaron Addison" Subject: RE: [compass-users] Re: Adding Fixed Stations All of my testing was done on 5.07.6.3.136 running on XP Pro SP2 and current with all MS updates since SP2. Other uses experienced same running on Vista. Cheers, Aaron ________________________________ Aaron Addison University GIS Coordinator Washington University in St. Louis Campus Box 1169 One Brookings Drive St. Louis, MO 63130-4899 314 935 6198 - office [email protected] ________________________________ From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of ericmweaver2003 Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 1:39 PM Subject: [compass-users] Re: Adding Fixed Stations , "Aaron Addison" wrote: I'm not sure that's the problem (however I did save it). The problem occurs even if you immediately go back in to the dialog box after entering the data. At that point whatever you would be "saving" would be blank anyway. Aaron ________________________________________ Aaron Addison University GIS Coordinator Washington University in St. Louis Campus Box 1169 One Brookings Drive St. Louis, MO 63130-4899 314 935 6198 - office aaddison@... ________________________________________ From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected] ] On Behalf Of Rick Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 12:51 PM To: [email protected] Subject: [compass-users] Re: Adding Fixed Stations Paul beat me to it. Save your MAK file right away. --- In [email protected] , "caveresource" wrote: Hi everyone, We ran across some weirdness last week during the WKU cave surveying course while trying to add fixed station(s) to a DAT file. I was wondering if anyone else has experienced this? The steps to reproduce the problem are outlined below. Maybe we were doing something wrong? 1. Create a new empty project (MAK) file. 2. Import an existing DAT file (this even works with the Fulford data) 3. Right mouse click the DAT file and select "Edit Node" 4. Click the tab that says "Fixed Station" 5. Click in the station box and enter a station, tab over and enter the XY coordinates. 6. When happy with the coordinates, click OK. The dialog box closes... 7. Reopen the dialog box and your coordinates are gone! 8. If you enter your coordinates in the UTM Geographic Calculator within the "Fixed Station" tab of the "Edit Node" dialog, they will be passed to the fields described in Step 5. They will also persist if the dialog is closed and reopened (Step 7). So, there appears to be a workaround, but I can't imagine that this is a case of "works as designed"? Cheers, Aaron I have had the same problem in the past and have used the same workaround. I didn't think it was an issue about saving a MAK file, realistically there isn't a spot to save it before the data would be erased. However, I just tried to re-create the problem and wasn't able to do so. I am using Compass version 5.06.12.28.132 ...it looks like Rick just had the same experience. v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }
Messsage #: 98
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 11:43:41 -0500 From: "John Lovaas" Subject: re: XY coord entry gremlins 1d. Re: Adding Fixed Stations Posted by: "Rick" [email protected] mt_vertcaver Date: Wed Jun 25, 2008 10:50 am ((PDT)) Paul beat me to it. Save your MAK file right away.
Messsage #: 99
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 02:46:20 -0600 From: "Larry Fish" Subject: RE: [compass-users] re: XY coord entry gremlins Hi Everybody, Sorry it has taken me a while to respond to this topic. My motherboard died two days ago and it has taken me several days to get to the point where I could even look at my emails. I still have a bit more work to do before I can focus on software. I should have a chance over the weekend to look at the problems you all have been describing and see if I can make the program work better. Thanks to everyone for your comments and input. Larry _____ From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of John Lovaas Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 10:44 AM Subject: [compass-users] re: XY coord entry gremlins 1d. Re: Adding Fixed Stations Posted by: "Rick" [email protected] mt_vertcaver Date: Wed Jun 25, 2008 10:50 am ((PDT)) Paul beat me to it. Save your MAK file right away.
Messsage #: 100
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 04:02:26 -0600 From: "Larry Fish" Subject: RE: [compass-users] Adding Fixed Stations Hi Aaron, I think I have an idea about what is causing the problem. When you said that you entered the "X,Y" coordinate, I realized that you might be entering only two numbers. If you do enter two numbers, the program will completely ignore and discard the coordinates. This is because you can enter either a "Link Station," (which has no coordinates) or a "Fixed Station," (which does have coordinates). For this reason, the program has to differentiate a Link Station from a Fixed Station by looking at whether it has coordinates or not. At the time I wrote the code, I assumed that if you didn't have all three coordinates that it must be an error and so the program ignores the coordinate data and assumes that it is a Link Station. I can see that there might be some instances where it is easier to just enter one or two coordinates, so I changed the program. It now requires that you enter at least one coordinate. If the remaining two are left blank, the program sets their value to zero. The new version is posted on the internet at the Compass site. Let me know if you think that this is the source of the problem and if my changes help. Larry ________________________________________ From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of caveresource Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 6:16 AM Subject: [compass-users] Adding Fixed Stations Hi everyone, We ran across some weirdness last week during the WKU cave surveying course while trying to add fixed station(s) to a DAT file. I was wondering if anyone else has experienced this? The steps to reproduce the problem are outlined below. Maybe we were doing something wrong? 1. Create a new empty project (MAK) file. 2. Import an existing DAT file (this even works with the Fulford data) 3. Right mouse click the DAT file and select "Edit Node" 4. Click the tab that says "Fixed Station" 5. Click in the station box and enter a station, tab over and enter the XY coordinates. 6. When happy with the coordinates, click OK. The dialog box closes... 7. Reopen the dialog box and your coordinates are gone! 8. If you enter your coordinates in the UTM Geographic Calculator within the "Fixed Station" tab of the "Edit Node" dialog, they will be passed to the fields described in Step 5. They will also persist if the dialog is closed and reopened (Step 7). So, there appears to be a workaround, but I can't imagine that this is a case of "works as designed"? Cheers, Aaron
Messsage #: 101
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 06:42:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Durga Prasad Subject: Does compass index allow accented chars Hi , I try to insert below names which has accented characters like �, o , � in my compass index.my question is Does Compass index accept accented characters(non English words/not available chars on keyboard). it would be appreciated can any one answered for this. Names: 1.Wood Tob�-Coburn School 2.Tri-Vision International Ltd./Lt�e 3.Votorantim Participa�oes S.A. 4.Compa��a Minera Autl�n, S. A. de C. V. Thanks, dganji Hi ,I try to insert below names which has accented characters like �, o , � in my compass index.my question is Does Compass index accept accented characters(non English words/not available chars on keyboard). it would be appreciated can any one answered for this.Names:1.Wood Tob�-Coburn School2.Tri-Vision International Ltd./Lt�e3.Votorantim Participa�oes S.A.4.Compa��a Minera Autl�n, S. A. de C. V.Thanks,dganji
Messsage #: 102
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 15:07:57 -0600 From: "Larry Fish" Subject: RE: [compass-users] Does compass index allow accented chars Dganji, Thanks for your letter. Compass does accept accented characters if your keyboard will generate them. You just place the cursor in the appropriate field and then hit the key you want. The characters can be entered into the Station-Name box, Survey-Name box or any of the other text fields. If your keyboard doesn't have the characters you want, one way to generate those characters is to use the "Alt-codes". "Alt" codes work by holding down the "Alt" key and then entering a three digit decimal number into the "Numeric Keypad" on your computer. When you release the "Alt" key, the character that corresponds to the numeric value will be entered at the cursor. This only works when you enter the numeric value into the numeric keypad. In addition, "Num Lock" must be enabled. As an example, if I enter "Alt", then 0233 and finally release the "Alt" key, the accented "e" character is entered: "�". The zero at the beginning of the number is required and the 0233 is the ASCII value for the character. (For reasons that I don't understand, you can also get "�" character by enter Alt-130.) This web site will give you more information about the Alt-Keycodes: http://tlt.its.psu.edu/suggestions/international/accents/codealt.html If you don't have a Numeric Keypad, Windows also has an "International" mode. In International Mode, special short-cuts are added that make it easier to enter certain characters. For example, if the international keyboard option is enabled, pressing "RightAlt+?" will enter an "Up-side-down-question-mark" "�". There is detailed information about enabling and using the "International Keyboard" option here: http://tlt.its.psu.edu/suggestions/international/accents/codeint.html If you have any other questions, feel free to write. Larry _____ From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Durga Prasad Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 7:42 AM Subject: [compass-users] Does compass index allow accented chars Hi , I try to insert below names which has accented characters like �, o , � in my compass index.my question is Does Compass index accept accented characters(non English words/not available chars on keyboard). it would be appreciated can any one answered for this. Names: 1.Wood Tob�-Coburn School 2.Tri-Vision International Ltd./Lt�e 3.Votorantim Participa�oes S.A. 4.Compa��a Minera Autl�n, S. A. de C. V. Thanks, dganji v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }
Messsage #: 103
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 17:27:19 -0400 From: Paul Jorgenson KE7HR Subject: RE: [compass-users] Does compass index allow accented chars If you could generate the text like the example at the bottom of the first email message, then cutting and pasting from a text file would possibly be another valid method of inserting the correct characters. Type them once and then cut and paste where needed. Paul Jorgenson KE7HR (remotely) Dganji, Thanks for your letter. Compass does accept accented characters if your keyboard will generate them. You just place the cursor in the appropriate field and then hit the key you want. The characters can be entered into the Station-Name box, Survey-Name box or any of the other text fields. If your keyboard doesn't have the characters you want, one way to generate those characters is to use the "Alt-codes". "Alt" codes work by holding down the "Alt" key and then entering a three digit decimal number into the "Numeric Keypad" on your computer. When you release the "Alt" key, the character that corresponds to the numeric value will be entered at the cursor. This only works when you enter the numeric value into the numeric keypad. In addition, "Num Lock" must be enabled. As an example, if I enter "Alt", then 0233 and finally release the "Alt" key, the accented "e" character is entered: "Ac". The zero at the beginning of the number is required and the 0233 is the ASCII value for the character. (For reasons that I don't understand, you can also get "Ac" character by enter Alt-130.) This web site will give you more information about the Alt-Keycodes: http://tlt.its.psu.edu/suggestions/international/accents/codealt.html If you don't have a Numeric Keypad, Windows also has an "International" mode. In International Mode, special short-cuts are added that make it easier to enter certain characters. For example, if the international keyboard option is enabled, pressing "RightAlt+?" will enter an "Up-side-down-question-mark" "A�". There is detailed information about enabling and using the "International Keyboard" option here: http://tlt.its.psu.edu/suggestions/international/accents/codeint.html If you have any other questions, feel free to write. Larry _____ From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Durga Prasad Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 7:42 AM To: [email protected] Subject: [compass-users] Does compass index allow accented chars Hi , I try to insert below names which has accented characters like Ac, A� , A� in my compass index.my question is Does Compass index accept accented characters(non English words/not available chars on keyboard). it would be appreciated can any one answered for this. Names: 1.Wood TobAc-Coburn School 2.Tri-Vision International Ltd./LtAce 3.Votorantim ParticipaAA�es S.A. 4.CompaA�A-a Minera AutlA�n, S. A. de C. V. Thanks, dganji
Messsage #: 104
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 04:54:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Durga Prasad Subject: RE: [compass-users] Does compass index allow accented chars Hi, I think you guys did not understand my question. I want to store/retrieve� data which includes accented(like � ) characters� in/from index using� compass API. So my question is does compass API support this feature. Thx, Durga From: Paul Jorgenson KE7HR Subject: RE: [compass-users] Does compass index allow accented chars Date: Tuesday, July 8, 2008, 2:27 PM If you could generate the text like the example at the bottom of the first email message, then cutting and pasting from a text file would possibly be another valid method of inserting the correct characters. Type them once and then cut and paste where needed. Paul Jorgenson KE7HR (remotely) Dganji, Thanks for your letter. Compass does accept accented characters if your keyboard will generate them. You just place the cursor in the appropriate field and then hit the key you want. The characters can be entered into the Station-Name box, Survey-Name box or any of the other text fields. If your keyboard doesn't have the characters you want, one way to generate those characters is to use the "Alt-codes". "Alt" codes work by holding down the "Alt" key and then entering a three digit decimal number into the "Numeric Keypad" on your computer. When you release the "Alt" key, the character that corresponds to the numeric value will be entered at the cursor. This only works when you enter the numeric value into the numeric keypad. In addition, "Num Lock" must be enabled. As an example, if I enter "Alt", then 0233 and finally release the "Alt" key, the accented "e" character is entered: "�". The zero at the beginning of the number is required and the 0233 is the ASCII value for the character. (For reasons that I don't understand, you can also get "�" character by enter Alt-130.) This web site will give you more information about the Alt-Keycodes: http://tlt.its. psu.edu/suggesti ons/internationa l/accents/ codealt.html If you don't have a Numeric Keypad, Windows also has an "International" mode. In International Mode, special short-cuts are added that make it easier to enter certain characters. For example, if the international keyboard option is enabled, pressing "RightAlt+?" will enter an "Up-side-down- question- mark" "�". There is detailed information about enabling and using the "International Keyboard" option here: http://tlt.its. psu.edu/suggesti ons/internationa l/accents/ codeint.html If you have any other questions, feel free to write. Larry _____ From: compass-users@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:compass-users@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Durga Prasad Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 7:42 AM To: compass-users@ yahoogroups. com Subject: [compass-users] Does compass index allow accented chars Hi , I try to insert below names which has accented characters like �, o , � in my compass index.my question is Does Compass index accept accented characters(non English words/not available chars on keyboard). it would be appreciated can any one answered for this. Names: 1.Wood Tob�-Coburn School 2.Tri-Vision International Ltd./Lt�e 3.Votorantim Participa�oes S.A. 4.Compa��a Minera Autl�n, S. A. de C. V. Thanks, dganji Hi,I think you guys did not understand my question.I want to store/retrieve data which includes accented(like � ) characters in/from index using compass API.So my question is does compass API support this feature.Thx,Durga --- On Tue, 7/8/08, Paul Jorgenson KE7HR <[email protected]> wrote:From: Paul Jorgenson KE7HR <[email protected]>Subject: RE: [compass-users] Does compass index allow accented charsTo: [email protected]: "Larry Fish" <[email protected]>Date: Tuesday, July 8, 2008, 2:27 PM If you could generate the text like the example at the bottom of the first email message, then cutting and pasting from a text file would possibly be another valid method of inserting the correct characters. Type them once and then cut and paste where needed. Paul Jorgenson KE7HR (remotely) ish%40nyx.net"[email protected]> wrote: > Dganji, > > Thanks for your letter. Compass does accept accented characters if your > keyboard will generate them. You just place the cursor in the appropriate > field and then hit the key you want. The characters can be entered into the > Station-Name box, Survey-Name box or any of the other text fields. > > If your keyboard doesn't have the characters you want, one way to generate > those characters is to use the "Alt-codes". "Alt" codes work by holding down > the "Alt" key and then entering a three digit decimal number into the > "Numeric Keypad" on your computer. When you release the "Alt" key, the > character that corresponds to the numeric value will be entered at the > cursor. This only works when you enter the numeric value into the numeric > keypad. In addition, "Num Lock" must be enabled. As an example, if I enter > "Alt", then 0233 and finally release the "Alt" key, the accented "e" > character is entered: "�". The zero at the beginning of the number is > required and the 0233 is the ASCII value for the character. (For reasons > that I don't understand, you can also get "�" character by enter Alt-130.) > This web site will give you more information about the Alt-Keycodes: > > http://tlt.its. psu.edu/suggesti ons/internationa l/accents/ codealt.html > > If you don't have a Numeric Keypad, Windows also has an "International" > mode. In International Mode, special short-cuts are added that make it > easier to enter certain characters. For example, if the international > keyboard option is enabled, pressing "RightAlt+?" will enter an > "Up-side-down- question- mark" "�". There is detailed information about > enabling and using the "International Keyboard" option here: > > http://tlt.its. psu.edu/suggesti ons/internationa l/accents/ codeint.html > > If you have any other questions, feel free to write. > > Larry > > _____ > > From: compass-users@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:compass-users@ yahoogroups. com] > On Behalf Of Durga Prasad > Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 7:42 AM > To: compass-users@ yahoogroups. com > Subject: [compass-users] Does compass index allow accented chars > > > Hi , > > I try to insert below names which has accented characters like �, o , � in > my compass index.my question is Does Compass index accept accented > characters(non English words/not available chars on keyboard). it would be > appreciated can any one answered for this. > > > Names: > > 1.Wood Tob�-Coburn School > > 2.Tri-Vision International Ltd./Lt�e > > 3.Votorantim Participa�oes S.A. > > 4.Compa��a Minera Autl�n, S. A. de C. V. > > > Thanks, > dganji
Messsage #: 105
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 19:57:01 +0200 From: "Paul De Bie" Subject: RE: [compass-users] Does compass index allow accented chars Well your question was very vague then. Paul De Bie http://www.scavalon.be http://scavalon.blogspot.com http://pollekepik.blogspot.com _____ From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Durga Prasad Sent: Monday, July 14, 2008 1:55 PM Subject: RE: [compass-users] Does compass index allow accented chars Hi, I think you guys did not understand my question. I want to store/retrieve data which includes accented(like � ) characters in/from index using compass API. So my question is does compass API support this feature. Thx, Durga From: Paul Jorgenson KE7HR Subject: RE: [compass-users] Does compass index allow accented chars Date: Tuesday, July 8, 2008, 2:27 PM If you could generate the text like the example at the bottom of the first email message, then cutting and pasting from a text file would possibly be another valid method of inserting the correct characters. Type them once and then cut and paste where needed. Paul Jorgenson KE7HR (remotely) Dganji, Thanks for your letter. Compass does accept accented characters if your keyboard will generate them. You just place the cursor in the appropriate field and then hit the key you want. The characters can be entered into the Station-Name box, Survey-Name box or any of the other text fields. If your keyboard doesn't have the characters you want, one way to generate those characters is to use the "Alt-codes". "Alt" codes work by holding down the "Alt" key and then entering a three digit decimal number into the "Numeric Keypad" on your computer. When you release the "Alt" key, the character that corresponds to the numeric value will be entered at the cursor. This only works when you enter the numeric value into the numeric keypad. In addition, "Num Lock" must be enabled. As an example, if I enter "Alt", then 0233 and finally release the "Alt" key, the accented "e" character is entered: "�". The zero at the beginning of the number is required and the 0233 is the ASCII value for the character. (For reasons that I don't understand, you can also get "�" character by enter Alt-130.) This web site will give you more information about the Alt-Keycodes: http://tlt.its. psu.edu/suggesti ons/internationa l/accents/ codealt.html If you don't have a Numeric Keypad, Windows also has an "International" mode. In International Mode, special short-cuts are added that make it easier to enter certain characters. For example, if the international keyboard option is enabled, pressing "RightAlt+?" will enter an "Up-side-down- question- mark" "�". There is detailed information about enabling and using the "International Keyboard" option here: http://tlt.its. psu.edu/suggesti ons/internationa l/accents/ codeint.html If you have any other questions, feel free to write. Larry _____ From: compass-users@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:compass-users@ yahoogroups. com ] On Behalf Of Durga Prasad Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 7:42 AM To: compass-users@ yahoogroups. com Subject: [compass-users] Does compass index allow accented chars Hi , I try to insert below names which has accented characters like �, o , � in my compass index.my question is Does Compass index accept accented characters(non English words/not available chars on keyboard). it would be appreciated can any one answered for this. Names: 1.Wood Tob�-Coburn School 2.Tri-Vision International Ltd./Lt�e 3.Votorantim Participa�oes S.A. 4.Compa��a Minera Autl�n, S. A. de C. V. Thanks, dganji #ygrp-mkp { BORDER-RIGHT: #d8d8d8 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 14px; BORDER-TOP: #d8d8d8 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 14px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; MARGIN: 14px 0px; BORDER-LEFT: #d8d8d8 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 0px; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d8d8d8 1px solid; FONT-FAMILY: Arial } #ygrp-mkp HR { BORDER-RIGHT: #d8d8d8 1px solid; BORDER-TOP: #d8d8d8 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #d8d8d8 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d8d8d8 1px solid } #ygrp-mkp #hd { FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 85%; MARGIN: 10px 0px; COLOR: #628c2a; LINE-HEIGHT: 122% } #ygrp-mkp #ads { MARGIN-BOTTOM: 10px } #ygrp-mkp .ad { PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px } #ygrp-mkp .ad A { COLOR: #0000ff; TEXT-DECORATION: none } Well your question was very vague then. Paul De Biehttp://www.scavalon.behttp://scavalon.blogspot.comhttp://pollekepik.blogspot.com From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Durga PrasadSent: Monday, July 14, 2008 1:55 PMTo: [email protected]: RE: [compass-users] Does compass index allow accented chars Hi,I think you guys did not understand my question.I want to store/retrieve data which includes accented(like � ) characters in/from index using compass API.So my question is does compass API support this feature.Thx,Durga --- On Tue, 7/8/08, Paul Jorgenson KE7HR <[email protected]> wrote: From: Paul Jorgenson KE7HR <[email protected]>Subject: RE: [compass-users] Does compass index allow accented charsTo: [email protected]: "Larry Fish" <[email protected]>Date: Tuesday, July 8, 2008, 2:27 PM If you could generate the text like the example at the bottom of the first email message, then cutting and pasting from a text file would possibly be another valid method of inserting the correct characters. Type them once and then cut and paste where needed.--Paul JorgensonKE7HR (remotely)------ Larry Fish <[email protected]> wrote: > Dganji,> > Thanks for your letter. Compass does accept accented characters if your> keyboard will generate them. You just place the cursor in the appropriate> field and then hit the key you want. The characters can be entered into the> Station-Name box, Survey-Name box or any of the other text fields.> > If your keyboard doesn't have the characters you want, one way to generate> those characters is to use the "Alt-codes". "Alt" codes work by holding down> the "Alt" key and then entering a three digit decimal number into the> "Numeric Keypad" on your computer. When you release the "Alt" key, the> character that corresponds to the numeric value will be entered at the> cursor. This only works when you enter the numeric value into the numeric> keypad. In addition, "Num Lock" must be enabled. As an example, if I enter> "Alt", then 0233 and finally release the "Alt" key, the accented "e"> character is entered: "�". The zero at the beginning of the number is> required and the 0233 is the ASCII value for the character. (For reasons> that I don't understand, you can also get "�" character by enter Alt-130.)> This web site will give you more information about the Alt-Keycodes:> > http://tlt.its. psu.edu/suggesti ons/internationa l/accents/ codealt.html> > If you don't have a Numeric Keypad, Windows also has an "International"> mode. In International Mode, special short-cuts are added that make it> easier to enter certain characters. For example, if the international> keyboard option is enabled, pressing "RightAlt+?" will enter an> "Up-side-down- question- mark" "�". There is detailed information about> enabling and using the "International Keyboard" option here:> > http://tlt.its. psu.edu/suggesti ons/internationa l/accents/ codeint.html> > If you have any other questions, feel free to write.> > Larry> > _____ > > From: compass-users@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:compass-users@ yahoogroups. com]> On Behalf Of Durga Prasad> Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 7:42 AM> To: compass-users@ yahoogroups. com> Subject: [compass-users] Does compass index allow accented chars> > > Hi ,> > I try to insert below names which has accented characters like �, o , � in> my compass index.my question is Does Compass index accept accented> characters(non English words/not available chars on keyboard). it would be> appreciated can any one answered for this.> > > Names:> > 1.Wood Tob�-Coburn School> > 2.Tri-Vision International Ltd./Lt�e> > 3.Votorantim Participa�oes S.A.> > 4.Compa��a Minera Autl�n, S. A. de C. V.> > > Thanks,> dganji
Messsage #: 106
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 14:16:29 -0400 From: Christian Chenier Subject: RE: [compass-users] Does compass index allow accented chars Are you sure you're on the right email list? Your questions sounds like you're talking about something else. A Google search for Compass API gets me some programming framework (http://www.compass-project.org/), which is far from what this group is all about (It's about the Compass cave survey software; http://www.fountainware.com/compass/ ). Chris At 07:54 AM 14/07/2008, you wrote: Hi, I think you guys did not understand my question. I want to store/retrieve data which includes accented(like � ) characters in/from index using compass API. So my question is does compass API support this feature. Thx, Durga --- On Tue, 7/8/08, Paul Jorgenson KE7HR wrote: From: Paul Jorgenson KE7HR Subject: RE: [compass-users] Does compass index allow accented chars To: [email protected] Cc: "Larry Fish" Date: Tuesday, July 8, 2008, 2:27 PM If you could generate the text like the example at the bottom of the first email message, then cutting and pasting from a text file would possibly be another valid method of inserting the correct characters. Type them once and then cut and paste where needed. -- Paul Jorgenson KE7HR (remotely) -- ---- Larry Fish wrote: Dganji, Thanks for your letter. Compass does accept accented characters if your keyboard will generate them. You just place the cursor in the appropriate field and then hit the key you want. The characters can be entered into the Station-Name box, Survey-Name box or any of the other text fields. If your keyboard doesn't have the characters you want, one way to generate those characters is to use the "Alt-codes". "Alt" codes work by holding down the "Alt" key and then entering a three digit decimal number into the "Numeric Keypad" on your computer. When you release the "Alt" key, the character that corresponds to the numeric value will be entered at the cursor. This only works when you enter the numeric value into the numeric keypad. In addition, "Num Lock" must be enabled. As an example, if I enter "Alt", then 0233 and finally release the "Alt" key, the accented "e" character is entered: "�". The zero at the beginning of the number is required and the 0233 is the ASCII value for the character. (For reasons that I don't understand, you can also get "�" character by enter Alt-130.) This web site will give you more information about the Alt-Keycodes: http://tlt.its. psu.edu/suggesti ons/internationa l/accents/ codealt.html If you don't have a Numeric Keypad, Windows also has an "International" mode. In International Mode, special short-cuts are added that make it easier to enter certain characters. For example, if the international keyboard option is enabled, pressing "RightAlt+?" will enter an "Up-side-down- question- mark" "�". There is detailed information about enabling and using the "International Keyboard" option here: http://tlt.its. psu.edu/suggesti ons/internationa l/accents/ codeint.html If you have any other questions, feel free to write. Larry _____ From: compass-users@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:compass-users@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Durga Prasad Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 7:42 AM To: compass-users@ yahoogroups. com Subject: [compass-users] Does compass index allow accented chars Hi , I try to insert below names which has accented characters like �, o , � in my compass index.my question is Does Compass index accept accented characters(non English words/not available chars on keyboard). it would be appreciated can any one answered for this. Names: 1.Wood Tob�-Coburn School 2.Tri-Vision International Ltd./Lt�e 3.Votorantim Participa�oes S.A. 4.Compa��a Minera Autl�n, S. A. de C. V. Thanks, dganji Christian Ch�nier Gatineau (Qu�bec), Canada (819) 772-8824 Are you sure you're on the right email list? Your questions sounds like you're talking about something else. A Google search for Compass API gets me some programming framework ( http://www.compass-project.org/), which is far from what this group is all about (It's about the Compass cave survey software; http://www.fountainware.com/compass/ ). Chris At 07:54 AM 14/07/2008, you wrote: Hi, I think you guys did not understand my question. I want to store/retrieve data which includes accented(like � ) characters in/from index using compass API. So my question is does compass API support this feature. Thx, Durga <[email protected]> wrote: From: Paul Jorgenson KE7HR <[email protected]> Subject: RE: [compass-users] Does compass index allow accented chars To: [email protected] Cc: "Larry Fish" <[email protected]> Date: Tuesday, July 8, 2008, 2:27 PM If you could generate the text like the example at the bottom of the first email message, then cutting and pasting from a text file would possibly be another valid method of inserting the correct characters. Type them once and then cut and paste where needed. -- Paul Jorgenson KE7HR (remotely) -- ---- Larry Fish <[email protected]> wrote: > Dganji, > > Thanks for your letter. Compass does accept accented characters if your > keyboard will generate them. You just place the cursor in the appropriate > field and then hit the key you want. The characters can be entered into the > Station-Name box, Survey-Name box or any of the other text fields. > > If your keyboard doesn't have the characters you want, one way to generate > those characters is to use the "Alt-codes". "Alt" codes work by holding down > the "Alt" key and then entering a three digit decimal number into the > "Numeric Keypad" on your computer. When you release the "Alt" key, the > character that corresponds to the numeric value will be entered at the > cursor. This only works when you enter the numeric value into the numeric > keypad. In addition, "Num Lock" must be enabled. As an example, if I enter > "Alt", then 0233 and finally release the "Alt" key, the accented "e" > character is entered: "�". The zero at the beginning of the number is > required and the 0233 is the ASCII value for the character. (For reasons > that I don't understand, you can also get "�" character by enter Alt-130.) > This web site will give you more information about the Alt-Keycodes: > > http://tlt.its. psu.edu/suggesti ons/internationa l/accents/ codealt.html > > If you don't have a Numeric Keypad, Windows also has an "International" > mode. In International Mode, special short-cuts are added that make it > easier to enter certain characters. For example, if the international > keyboard option is enabled, pressing "RightAlt+?" will enter an > "Up-side-down- question- mark" "�". There is detailed information about > enabling and using the "International Keyboard" option here: > > http://tlt.its. psu.edu/suggesti ons/internationa l/accents/ codeint.html > > If you have any other questions, feel free to write. > > Larry > > _____ > > From: compass-users@ yahoogroups. com [ mailto:compass-users@ yahoogroups. com] > On Behalf Of Durga Prasad > Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 7:42 AM > To: compass-users@ yahoogroups. com > Subject: [compass-users] Does compass index allow accented chars > > > Hi , > > I try to insert below names which has accented characters like �, o , � in > my compass index.my question is Does Compass index accept accented > characters(non English words/not available chars on keyboard). it would be > appreciated can any one answered for this. > > > Names: > > 1.Wood Tob�-Coburn School > > 2.Tri-Vision International Ltd./Lt�e > > 3.Votorantim Participa�oes S.A. > > 4.Compa��a Minera Autl�n, S. A. de C. V. > > > Thanks, > dganji Christian Ch�nier Gatineau (Qu�bec), Canada (819) 772-8824
Messsage #: 107
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 07:35:43 -0000 From: "lfish222" Subject: New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features. Hi Everybody, I wanted to let everyone know that I have just released a new version of Compass with a special new feature. The latest version will allow you to export your cave data as KML files. KML files are used by Google Earth to display all kinds of geographic information. In this case, Compass exports the passage information in the KML file. When Google Earth reads the file, it overlays the terrain around the cave with passage outlines. This allows you to see the cave in relation to terrain features. The KML files can be posted on the internet for other people to look at. For example, if you have Google Earth installed and you click on or paste the following link in your browser, you will get to see Fulford Cave and the terrain around it: http://www.fountainware.com/compass/Fulford.kml Even though the cave is very well known and visited by lots of non- cavers, it is still fairly pristine, probably because of the terrain and the steep hike up to the entrance. It is also located in some very beautiful mountain terrain. There is a 14,000 foot (4,267 meter) peak and a wilderness area immediately to the east. Larry
Messsage #: 108
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 10:43:38 +0200 From: "Paul De Bie" Subject: RE: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features. Hi Larry, great stuff, i've been waiting for this all of my life :-) But, here in Europe it doesn't work. Google earth drwas some kind of track but it goes all the way from the northpole to the equator... I think it has got to do with the decimal sign. If I look at your Fulfords example: -106.65468497,39.49340730 -106.65463232,39.49342560 -106.65460472,39.49340939 -106.65466668,39.49338156 -106.65468497,39.49340730 However when exporting one of my caves: 4,94347699,50,29083616 4,94345354,50,29082402 4,94344972,50,29082957 4,94347601,50,29084567 4,94347699,50,29083616 I think Google Earth will only accept a "." as the decimal sign. But over here, computers are most of the time using the "," as the decimal sign. I hope you can fix this, because I would sure like to use this option! TIA Paul De Bie http://www.scavalon.be http://scavalon.blogspot.com http://pollekepik.blogspot.com -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of lfish222 Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 9:36 AM To: [email protected] Subject: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features. Hi Everybody, I wanted to let everyone know that I have just released a new version of Compass with a special new feature. The latest version will allow you to export your cave data as KML files. KML files are used by Google Earth to display all kinds of geographic information. In this case, Compass exports the passage information in the KML file. When Google Earth reads the file, it overlays the terrain around the cave with passage outlines. This allows you to see the cave in relation to terrain features. The KML files can be posted on the internet for other people to look at. For example, if you have Google Earth installed and you click on or paste the following link in your browser, you will get to see Fulford Cave and the terrain around it: http://www.fountainware.com/compass/Fulford.kml Even though the cave is very well known and visited by lots of non- cavers, it is still fairly pristine, probably because of the terrain and the steep hike up to the entrance. It is also located in some very beautiful mountain terrain. There is a 14,000 foot (4,267 meter) peak and a wilderness area immediately to the east. Larry ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links
Messsage #: 109
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 03:10:25 -0600 From: "Larry Fish" Subject: RE: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features. Paul, I always forget about the decimal point versus comma problem! I have a very simple flag that I can set that turns off the "International" settings and forces everything to use a "period" for the "decimal separator". I wrote the routines years ago when I first got bit by the problem, but I always forget to use them. At any rate, there is a new version on the net that should deal with the problem. Let me know if it fixes the issue. I tested the problem by changing my settings to use the "comma" for the decimal point, but I could have overlooked something. Thanks for catching the problem!!! Larry _____ From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Paul De Bie Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 2:44 AM Subject: RE: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features. Hi Larry, great stuff, i've been waiting for this all of my life :-) But, here in Europe it doesn't work. Google earth drwas some kind of track but it goes all the way from the northpole to the equator... I think it has got to do with the decimal sign. If I look at your Fulfords example: -106.65468497,39.49340730 -106.65463232,39.49342560 -106.65460472,39.49340939 -106.65466668,39.49338156 -106.65468497,39.49340730 However when exporting one of my caves: 4,94347699,50,29083616 4,94345354,50,29082402 4,94344972,50,29082957 4,94347601,50,29084567 4,94347699,50,29083616 I think Google Earth will only accept a "." as the decimal sign. But over here, computers are most of the time using the "," as the decimal sign. I hope you can fix this, because I would sure like to use this option! TIA Paul De Bie http://www.scavalon .be http://scavalon. blogspot.com http://pollekepik. blogspot.com -----Original Message----- From: compass-users@ yahoogroups.com [mailto:compass-users@ yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of lfish222 Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 9:36 AM To: compass-users@ yahoogroups.com Subject: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features. Hi Everybody, I wanted to let everyone know that I have just released a new version of Compass with a special new feature. The latest version will allow you to export your cave data as KML files. KML files are used by Google Earth to display all kinds of geographic information. In this case, Compass exports the passage information in the KML file. When Google Earth reads the file, it overlays the terrain around the cave with passage outlines. This allows you to see the cave in relation to terrain features. The KML files can be posted on the internet for other people to look at. For example, if you have Google Earth installed and you click on or paste the following link in your browser, you will get to see Fulford Cave and the terrain around it: http://www.fountain ware.com/compass/Fulford.kml Even though the cave is very well known and visited by lots of non- cavers, it is still fairly pristine, probably because of the terrain and the steep hike up to the entrance. It is also located in some very beautiful mountain terrain. There is a 14,000 foot (4,267 meter) peak and a wilderness area immediately to the east. Larry ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }
Messsage #: 110
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 11:17:05 +0200 From: "Paul De Bie" Subject: RE: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features. Hi Larry, I've tried in Windows Control panel to put my International options on US. OK, Compass now creates a KML file with the cave and including passages. However it is not exactly positioned in GE where it should be. In one case, the cave is about hundred meters off. In another case, it is several hundreds of kilometers off (it seems as if Compass is interpreting the UTM European Datum 1950 30 coordinates as being 31 ? Both caves have got their Base location set, approximately. Both caves have got fixed stations (entrances) that are set to the EXACT coordinates. The coordinates that Compass is calculating have always been exact for these caves (e.g. when looking at the coordinates for each station) Yet in the Google Earth export there is a shift. Can you explain what is happening? TIA Paul De Bie http://www.scavalon.be http://scavalon.blogspot.com http://pollekepik.blogspot.com -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Paul De Bie Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 10:44 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features. Hi Larry, great stuff, i've been waiting for this all of my life :-) But, here in Europe it doesn't work. Google earth drwas some kind of track but it goes all the way from the northpole to the equator... I think it has got to do with the decimal sign. If I look at your Fulfords example: -106.65468497,39.49340730 -106.65463232,39.49342560 -106.65460472,39.49340939 -106.65466668,39.49338156 -106.65468497,39.49340730 However when exporting one of my caves: 4,94347699,50,29083616 4,94345354,50,29082402 4,94344972,50,29082957 4,94347601,50,29084567 4,94347699,50,29083616 I think Google Earth will only accept a "." as the decimal sign. But over here, computers are most of the time using the "," as the decimal sign. I hope you can fix this, because I would sure like to use this option! TIA Paul De Bie http://www.scavalon.be http://scavalon.blogspot.com http://pollekepik.blogspot.com -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of lfish222 Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 9:36 AM To: [email protected] Subject: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features. Hi Everybody, I wanted to let everyone know that I have just released a new version of Compass with a special new feature. The latest version will allow you to export your cave data as KML files. KML files are used by Google Earth to display all kinds of geographic information. In this case, Compass exports the passage information in the KML file. When Google Earth reads the file, it overlays the terrain around the cave with passage outlines. This allows you to see the cave in relation to terrain features. The KML files can be posted on the internet for other people to look at. For example, if you have Google Earth installed and you click on or paste the following link in your browser, you will get to see Fulford Cave and the terrain around it: http://www.fountainware.com/compass/Fulford.kml Even though the cave is very well known and visited by lots of non- cavers, it is still fairly pristine, probably because of the terrain and the steep hike up to the entrance. It is also located in some very beautiful mountain terrain. There is a 14,000 foot (4,267 meter) peak and a wilderness area immediately to the east. Larry ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links
Messsage #: 111
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 11:25:07 +0200 From: "Paul De Bie" Subject: RE: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features. Hi Larry, I've just posted another issue that has crossed this reply of years. WOW... that's the fastest support I've ever seen. The decimal point issue is already fixed, it works now!! Yet the other problem remains. I'm quite sure that in one case, it looks as if Compass is not interpreting the UTM zone correectly. In G.E. the cave is showing about 500 km to the east of where it should be (so in the 31T zone instead of 30). The N/S position seems to be OK. bye Paul De Bie http://www.scavalon.be http://scavalon.blogspot.com http://pollekepik.blogspot.com _____ From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Larry Fish Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 11:10 AM Subject: RE: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features. Paul, I always forget about the decimal point versus comma problem! I have a very simple flag that I can set that turns off the "International" settings and forces everything to use a "period" for the "decimal separator". I wrote the routines years ago when I first got bit by the problem, but I always forget to use them. At any rate, there is a new version on the net that should deal with the problem. Let me know if it fixes the issue. I tested the problem by changing my settings to use the "comma" for the decimal point, but I could have overlooked something. Thanks for catching the problem!!! Larry v\:* { BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML) } o\:* { BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML) } w\:* { BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML) } .shape { BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML) } st1\:* { BEHAVIOR: url(#default#ieooui) } @font-face { font-family: Tahoma; } @page Section1 {size: 8.5in 11.0in; margin: 1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in; } #YGRP-MLMSG { FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: x-small; LINE-HEIGHT: normal; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-VARIANT: normal } #YGRP-MLMSG TABLE { } #YGRP-MLMSG PRE { FONT-SIZE: 100% } CODE { FONT-SIZE: 100% } #ygrp-mlmsg * { LINE-HEIGHT: 1.22em } #YGRP-ACTBAR .LEFT { FLOAT: left } #YGRP-VITAL UL LI .CT { FLOAT: right } #ygrp-vital A:hover { TEXT-DECORATION: underline } #ygrp-sponsor .ad A:hover { TEXT-DECORATION: underline } o { FONT-SIZE: 0px } P.MsoNormal { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman" } LI.MsoNormal { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman" } DIV.MsoNormal { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman" } A:link { COLOR: blue; 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mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto } DIV.ct1 { FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0in; COLOR: #ff7900; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman"; TEXT-ALIGN: right; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto } P.cat1 { FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman"; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto } LI.cat1 { FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman"; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto } DIV.cat1 { FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman"; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto } P.ad6 { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman"; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto } LI.ad6 { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman"; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto } DIV.ad6 { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman"; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto } SPAN.EmailStyle38 { COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-style-type: personal-reply } DIV.Section1 { page: Section1 } Hi Larry, I've just posted another issue that has crossed this reply of years. WOW... that's the fastest support I've ever seen. The decimal point issue is already fixed, it works now!! Yet the other problem remains. I'm quite sure that in one case, it looks as if Compass is not interpreting the UTM zone correectly. In G.E. the cave is showing about 500 km to the east of where it should be (so in the 31T zone instead of 30). The N/S position seems to be OK. bye Paul De Biehttp://www.scavalon.behttp://scavalon.blogspot.comhttp://pollekepik.blogspot.com From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Larry FishSent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 11:10 AMTo: [email protected]: RE: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features. Paul, I always forget about the decimal point versus comma problem! I have a very simple flag that I can set that turns off the “International” settings and forces everything to use a “period” for the “decimal separator”. I wrote the routines years ago when I first got bit by the problem, but I always forget to use them. At any rate, there is a new version on the net that should deal with the problem. Let me know if it fixes the issue. I tested the problem by changing my settings to use the “comma” for the decimal point, but I could have overlooked something. Thanks for catching the problem!!! Larry
Messsage #: 112
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 04:51:17 -0600 From: "Larry Fish" Subject: RE: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features. Paul, Can you send me a copy of the Compass data you are using? Send it directly to me if you are concerned about it getting out into the public: [email protected] Also, send me the UTM coordinates of the entrance separately and also the Longitude and Latitude would be good so I can check the data against several different references. Larry _____ From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Paul De Bie Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 3:17 AM Subject: RE: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features. Hi Larry, I've tried in Windows Control panel to put my International options on US. OK, Compass now creates a KML file with the cave and including passages. However it is not exactly positioned in GE where it should be. In one case, the cave is about hundred meters off. In another case, it is several hundreds of kilometers off (it seems as if Compass is interpreting the UTM European Datum 1950 30 coordinates as being 31 ? Both caves have got their Base location set, approximately. Both caves have got fixed stations (entrances) that are set to the EXACT coordinates. The coordinates that Compass is calculating have always been exact for these caves (e.g. when looking at the coordinates for each station) Yet in the Google Earth export there is a shift. Can you explain what is happening? TIA Paul De Bie http://www.scavalon .be http://scavalon. blogspot.com http://pollekepik. blogspot.com -----Original Message----- From: compass-users@ yahoogroups.com [mailto:compass-users@ yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul De Bie Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 10:44 AM To: compass-users@ yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features. Hi Larry, great stuff, i've been waiting for this all of my life :-) But, here in Europe it doesn't work. Google earth drwas some kind of track but it goes all the way from the northpole to the equator... I think it has got to do with the decimal sign. If I look at your Fulfords example: -106.65468497,39.49340730 -106.65463232,39.49342560 -106.65460472,39.49340939 -106.65466668,39.49338156 -106.65468497,39.49340730 However when exporting one of my caves: 4,94347699,50,29083616 4,94345354,50,29082402 4,94344972,50,29082957 4,94347601,50,29084567 4,94347699,50,29083616 I think Google Earth will only accept a "." as the decimal sign. But over here, computers are most of the time using the "," as the decimal sign. I hope you can fix this, because I would sure like to use this option! TIA Paul De Bie http://www.scavalon .be http://scavalon. blogspot.com http://pollekepik. blogspot.com -----Original Message----- From: compass-users@ yahoogroups.com [mailto:compass-users@ yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of lfish222 Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 9:36 AM To: compass-users@ yahoogroups.com Subject: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features. Hi Everybody, I wanted to let everyone know that I have just released a new version of Compass with a special new feature. The latest version will allow you to export your cave data as KML files. KML files are used by Google Earth to display all kinds of geographic information. In this case, Compass exports the passage information in the KML file. When Google Earth reads the file, it overlays the terrain around the cave with passage outlines. This allows you to see the cave in relation to terrain features. The KML files can be posted on the internet for other people to look at. For example, if you have Google Earth installed and you click on or paste the following link in your browser, you will get to see Fulford Cave and the terrain around it: http://www.fountain ware.com/compass/Fulford.kml Even though the cave is very well known and visited by lots of non- cavers, it is still fairly pristine, probably because of the terrain and the steep hike up to the entrance. It is also located in some very beautiful mountain terrain. There is a 14,000 foot (4,267 meter) peak and a wilderness area immediately to the east. Larry ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }
Messsage #: 113
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 14:37:06 +0200 From: "Paul De Bie" Subject: RE: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features. Hi Larry, I've sent you an example in a private mail. Two other problems: - installing this new version resulted in loosing all of my preferences (in Project Manager and Viewer). This is quite tricky because there are some prefreences (such as "use UTM convergence" or "Calculate declinations" that have a very big effect on the rotation of your survey! BTW (we've talked about that several times, long ago): these two preferences should really be unique per Project. - I told you about one cave that is shown in GE, shifted about 100 metres from its real location. I've seen what is causing this: it is your geocalculator. Probably you are using it also for calculating all the coordinates for the KML file? An example: UTM ED50 (30T) X=684243 m Y=475732 m converted into UTM decimal degrees this gives me, with the convertor I'm always using (and which is IMO precise to 1 m): 42,944401� and -0,74292427� However with your Geocalculator I get: 42,945485� and -0,74172354� The difference seems trivial, but when converting this outcome back to UTM ED50 this gives: X=684337,8 m Y=4757443,9 m which is 94,8, resp 122,9 m different from what I consider the "correct" position. HTH Paul De Bie http://www.scavalon.be http://scavalon.blogspot.com http://pollekepik.blogspot.com _____ From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Larry Fish Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 12:51 PM Subject: RE: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features. Paul, Can you send me a copy of the Compass data you are using? Send it directly to me if you are concerned about it getting out into the public: [email protected] Also, send me the UTM coordinates of the entrance separately and also the Longitude and Latitude would be good so I can check the data against several different references. Larry _____ From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Paul De Bie Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 3:17 AM Subject: RE: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features. Hi Larry, I've tried in Windows Control panel to put my International options on US. OK, Compass now creates a KML file with the cave and including passages. However it is not exactly positioned in GE where it should be. In one case, the cave is about hundred meters off. In another case, it is several hundreds of kilometers off (it seems as if Compass is interpreting the UTM European Datum 1950 30 coordinates as being 31 ? Both caves have got their Base location set, approximately. Both caves have got fixed stations (entrances) that are set to the EXACT coordinates. The coordinates that Compass is calculating have always been exact for these caves (e.g. when looking at the coordinates for each station) Yet in the Google Earth export there is a shift. Can you explain what is happening? TIA Paul De Bie http://www.scavalon .be http://scavalon. blogspot.com http://pollekepik. blogspot.com -----Original Message----- From: compass-users@ yahoogroups.com [mailto:compass-users@ yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul De Bie Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 10:44 AM To: compass-users@ yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features. Hi Larry, great stuff, i've been waiting for this all of my life :-) But, here in Europe it doesn't work. Google earth drwas some kind of track but it goes all the way from the northpole to the equator... I think it has got to do with the decimal sign. If I look at your Fulfords example: -106.65468497,39.49340730 -106.65463232,39.49342560 -106.65460472,39.49340939 -106.65466668,39.49338156 -106.65468497,39.49340730 However when exporting one of my caves: 4,94347699,50,29083616 4,94345354,50,29082402 4,94344972,50,29082957 4,94347601,50,29084567 4,94347699,50,29083616 I think Google Earth will only accept a "." as the decimal sign. But over here, computers are most of the time using the "," as the decimal sign. I hope you can fix this, because I would sure like to use this option! TIA Paul De Bie http://www.scavalon .be http://scavalon. blogspot.com http://pollekepik. blogspot.com -----Original Message----- From: compass-users@ yahoogroups.com [mailto:compass-users@ yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of lfish222 Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 9:36 AM To: compass-users@ yahoogroups.com Subject: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features. Hi Everybody, I wanted to let everyone know that I have just released a new version of Compass with a special new feature. The latest version will allow you to export your cave data as KML files. KML files are used by Google Earth to display all kinds of geographic information. In this case, Compass exports the passage information in the KML file. When Google Earth reads the file, it overlays the terrain around the cave with passage outlines. This allows you to see the cave in relation to terrain features. The KML files can be posted on the internet for other people to look at. For example, if you have Google Earth installed and you click on or paste the following link in your browser, you will get to see Fulford Cave and the terrain around it: http://www.fountain ware.com/compass/Fulford.kml Even though the cave is very well known and visited by lots of non- cavers, it is still fairly pristine, probably because of the terrain and the steep hike up to the entrance. It is also located in some very beautiful mountain terrain. There is a 14,000 foot (4,267 meter) peak and a wilderness area immediately to the east. Larry ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links ------------------------------------ Yahoo! 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mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto } DIV.ad6 { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman"; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto } SPAN.EmailStyle38 { COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-style-type: personal-reply } DIV.Section1 { page: Section1 } Hi Larry, I've sent you an example in a private mail. Two other problems: - installing this new version resulted in loosing all of my preferences (in Project Manager and Viewer). This is quite tricky because there are some prefreences (such as "use UTM convergence" or "Calculate declinations" that have a very big effect on the rotation of your survey! BTW (we've talked about that several times, long ago): these two preferences should really be unique per Project. - I told you about one cave that is shown in GE, shifted about 100 metres from its real location. I've seen what is causing this: it is your geocalculator. Probably you are using it also for calculating all the coordinates for the KML file? An example: UTM ED50 (30T) X=684243 m Y=475732 m converted into UTM decimal degrees this gives me, with the convertor I'm always using (and which is IMO precise to 1 m): 42,944401� and -0,74292427� However with your Geocalculator I get: 42,945485� and -0,74172354� The difference seems trivial, but when converting this outcome back to UTM ED50 this gives: X=684337,8 m Y=4757443,9 m which is 94,8, resp 122,9 m different from what I consider the "correct" position. HTH Paul De Biehttp://www.scavalon.behttp://scavalon.blogspot.comhttp://pollekepik.blogspot.com From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Larry FishSent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 12:51 PMTo: [email protected]: RE: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features. Paul, Can you send me a copy of the Compass data you are using? Send it directly to me if you are concerned about it getting out into the public: [email protected] Also, send me the UTM coordinates of the entrance separately and also the Longitude and Latitude would be good so I can check the data against several different references. Larry From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Paul De BieSent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 3:17 AMTo: [email protected]: RE: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features. Hi Larry, I've tried in Windows Control panel to put my International options on US.OK, Compass now creates a KML file with the cave and including passages. However it is not exactly positioned in GE where it should be.In one case, the cave is about hundred meters off.In another case, it is several hundreds of kilometers off (it seems as if Compass is interpretingthe UTM European Datum 1950 30 coordinates as being 31 ? Both caves have got their Base location set, approximately. Both caves have got fixed stations (entrances) that are set to the EXACT coordinates. The coordinates that Compass is calculating have always been exact for these caves (e.g. whenlooking at the coordinates for each station)Yet in the Google Earth export there is a shift.Can you explain what is happening? TIAPaul De Biehttp://www.scavalon.behttp://scavalon.blogspot.comhttp://pollekepik.blogspot.com> -----Original Message-----> From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Paul De Bie> Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 10:44 AM> To: [email protected]> Subject: RE: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google > Earth/KML features.> > Hi Larry,> great stuff, i've been waiting for this all of my life :-)> > But, here in Europe it doesn't work. Google earth drwas some > kind of track but it goes all the way from the northpole to > the equator...> > > I think it has got to do with the decimal sign. > If I look at your Fulfords example:> <LinearRing>> <coordinates>> -106.65468497,39.49340730> -106.65463232,39.49342560> -106.65460472,39.49340939> -106.65466668,39.49338156> -106.65468497,39.49340730> </coordinates>> </LinearRing>> > > However when exporting one of my caves:> > <LinearRing>> <coordinates>> 4,94347699,50,29083616> 4,94345354,50,29082402> 4,94344972,50,29082957> 4,94347601,50,29084567> 4,94347699,50,29083616> </coordinates>> </LinearRing>> > I think Google Earth will only accept a "." as the decimal > sign. But over here, computers are most of the time using the > "," as the decimal sign. > I hope you can fix this, because I would sure like to use this option!> > TIA> > Paul De Bie> http://www.scavalon.be> http://scavalon.blogspot.com> http://pollekepik.blogspot.com> > > > -----Original Message-----> > From: [email protected]> > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of lfish222> > Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 9:36 AM> > To: [email protected]> > Subject: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML > > features.> > > > Hi Everybody,> > > > I wanted to let everyone know that I have just released a > new version > > of Compass with a special new feature. The latest version > will allow > > you to export your cave data as KML files.> > KML files are used by Google Earth to display all kinds of > geographic > > information. In this case, Compass exports the passage > information in > > the KML file. When Google Earth reads the file, it overlays the > > terrain around the cave with passage outlines. This allows > you to see > > the cave in relation to terrain features.> > > > The KML files can be posted on the internet for other > people to look > > at. For example, if you have Google Earth installed and you > click on > > or paste the following link in your browser, you will get to see > > Fulford Cave and the terrain around it:> > > > http://www.fountainware.com/compass/Fulford.kml> > > > Even though the cave is very well known and visited by lots of non- > > cavers, it is still fairly pristine, probably because of > the terrain > > and the steep hike up to the entrance. It is also located > in some very > > beautiful mountain terrain. There is a 14,000 foot (4,267 > meter) peak > > and a wilderness area immediately to the east.> > > > Larry> > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------> > > > Yahoo! Groups Links> > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------> > Yahoo! Groups Links> > > >
Messsage #: 114
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 10:15:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Rick Brinkman Subject: Re: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features. THIS IS SO COOL!!!! Thanks!!!!!!! From: lfish222 Subject: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features. Date: Sunday, July 20, 2008, 1:35 AM Hi Everybody, I wanted to let everyone know that I have just released a new version of Compass with a special new feature. The latest version will allow you to export your cave data as KML files. KML files are used by Google Earth to display all kinds of geographic information. In this case, Compass exports the passage information in the KML file. When Google Earth reads the file, it overlays the terrain around the cave with passage outlines. This allows you to see the cave in relation to terrain features. The KML files can be posted on the internet for other people to look at. For example, if you have Google Earth installed and you click on or paste the following link in your browser, you will get to see Fulford Cave and the terrain around it: http://www.fountain ware.com/ compass/Fulford. kml Even though the cave is very well known and visited by lots of non- cavers, it is still fairly pristine, probably because of the terrain and the steep hike up to the entrance. It is also located in some very beautiful mountain terrain. There is a 14,000 foot (4,267 meter) peak and a wilderness area immediately to the east. Larry THIS IS SO COOL!!!!Thanks!!!!!!!--- On Sun, 7/20/08, lfish222 <[email protected]> wrote:From: lfish222 <[email protected]>Subject: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features.To: [email protected]: Sunday, July 20, 2008, 1:35 AM Hi Everybody, I wanted to let everyone know that I have just released a new version of Compass with a special new feature. The latest version will allow you to export your cave data as KML files. KML files are used by Google Earth to display all kinds of geographic information. In this case, Compass exports the passage information in the KML file. When Google Earth reads the file, it overlays the terrain around the cave with passage outlines. This allows you to see the cave in relation to terrain features. The KML files can be posted on the internet for other people to look at. For example, if you have Google Earth installed and you click on or paste the following link in your browser, you will get to see Fulford Cave and the terrain around it: http://www.fountain ware.com/ compass/Fulford. kml Even though the cave is very well known and visited by lots of non- cavers, it is still fairly pristine, probably because of the terrain and the steep hike up to the entrance. It is also located in some very beautiful mountain terrain. There is a 14,000 foot (4,267 meter) peak and a wilderness area immediately to the east. Larry
Messsage #: 115
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 22:35:47 -0600 From: "Larry Fish" Subject: RE: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features. Paul, I think I have solved both KML problems you are experiencing. I will start by talking about the KML issues: 1. The first issue is the problem of the cave being located far to the east in middle of the Mediterranean Sea. It turns out that in your MAK file there are tags showing both 30 and 31 for the UTM zone. (These are not visible in the Project Manager; you have to use a text editor to see them.) The 3D Converter uses the last Zone that is found in the MAK files, which in this case, is zone 31. I saw this same problem when I first tested the Fulford Cave data. Apparently, it is an artifact left over from some old bug or quasi-bug in the Project Manager. Most of the time, the incorrect values are toward the end of the MAK files and so they are not used by the other parts of the Project Manager. The way to solve the problem is to re-save the Project using the Project Manager. I changed the Project Manager so it specifically strips out un-necessary Zone information. If you want to be sure your file is clean, open it in a text editor, (such as "Notepad") and look for the "$" tag. You may see more than one, but they all should be the same value. Delete any that are not associated with a fixed station. For those that are associated with fixed stations, change any values that is wrong. 2. The second problem you describe is a small offset, (usually on the order of a few hundred meters,) in the caves location. I think this is being caused by the way Google Earth converts between Longitude and Latitude and UTM. All coordinates in Google Earth are specified and calculated in Longitude and Latitude. You can have Google Earth display UTM coordinates, but it uses the "WGS84 Datum" to calculate the UTM coordinates and there doesn't appear to be a way to change it: http://earth.google.com/userguide/v4/ug_importdata.html Since you are using European 1950, there will always be a discrepancy between the UTM coordinates in Compass compared to the UTM coordinates in Google Earth. The way to solve the problem is to use Longitude and Latitude as your base coordinates when you are working with Google Earth. If you enter UTM coordinates in European 1950 and Compass converts it Long/Lat that Long/Lat won't correspond to the UTM coordinates you view in Google Earth. To verify this idea, I did the following experiment. I used your UTM coordinates to locate a point in Google Earth and then marked it. I then read the Long/Lat from Google Earth's and entered those coordinates into Compass. Finally, I recreated the KML file and this put the entrance, AN6, was right on the marked spot. This verifies that a Long/Lat taken from Google Earth and put into Compass will make the KML file land right on the spot. (One tricky point with the Compass Geo-Calculator is that it will change coordinates as you change Datum and other things. You need to re-check the Long/Lat occasionally to make sure it hasn't changed.) I don't think the datum really matters in this process, as long as both the Project Manager and the 3D Exporter are using the same datum. (That should happen automatically but, if you are having trouble it is worth checking.) Since Google Earth "thinks" in Longitude/Latitude, the UTM coordinates displayed in Google Earth don't matter as long as Compass converts back to the original Long/Lat. The residual problem for you seems to be that your best coordinates are in UTM, but to be compatible with Google Earth you have to focus and Long/Lat and ignore UTM. What I would do in your case is to use Google Earth to pick the correct location visually for the cave. (Since I didn't know where the entrance really should be, I couldn't do this for you.) You could also use a GPS receiver, but that would require a trip to Spain. Once you have established the correct location in Longitude and Latitude, enter the Long/Lat values in Compass. This will give a different UTM value, but in the case we are more concerned with aligning the entrance with Google Earth image. Finally, save the MAK files and re-export the KML file. The entrance should now fall exactly where it should on the Google Earth image. If you are worried about having the wrong UTM coordinates in the MAK file, you can create a separate, special MAK file just for use with Google Earth. There is also the possibility that Google's aerial photos are incorrectly aligned with the grid. I have certainly seen misalignments between the elevation points and the images, so it seems very possible. If there are misalignments between the coordinates and images, you could have the correct coordinates and the KML file would not line up with certain landmarks. 3. I don't really have an idea about what is causing the problem where your settings are lost when you install a new version. The default information is saved in these three files: comp32.ini, cavevw32.ini and CaveEd32.ini. They are normally stored in the Windows directory on your computer. They don't get overwritten when a new copy of Compass is installed, so I'm not sure how the setting could be changed. (You can make copies of these files and restore them if the settings unexpectedly change.) It is possible that you have more than one copy of the files. Windows will always take a local copy over the one that is in the Windows directory. The problem could occur if you have installed Compass in a non-standard directory and the "INI" files are in that directory. If you installed a new version in the Standard Directory, it would supersede the old version and the "INI" files would switch to the Windows directory and you'd lose all your old settings. That is the only explanation that I can find for the problem. Let me know what you think. Larry _____ From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Paul De Bie Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 6:37 AM Subject: RE: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features. Hi Larry, I've sent you an example in a private mail. Two other problems: - installing this new version resulted in loosing all of my preferences (in Project Manager and Viewer). This is quite tricky because there are some prefreences (such as "use UTM convergence" or "Calculate declinations" that have a very big effect on the rotation of your survey! BTW (we've talked about that several times, long ago): these two preferences should really be unique per Project. - I told you about one cave that is shown in GE, shifted about 100 metres from its real location. I've seen what is causing this: it is your geocalculator. Probably you are using it also for calculating all the coordinates for the KML file? An example: UTM ED50 (30T) X=684243 m Y=475732 m converted into UTM decimal degrees this gives me, with the convertor I'm always using (and which is IMO precise to 1 m): 42,944401� and -0,74292427� However with your Geocalculator I get: 42,945485� and -0,74172354� The difference seems trivial, but when converting this outcome back to UTM ED50 this gives: X=684337,8 m Y=4757443,9 m which is 94,8, resp 122,9 m different from what I consider the "correct" position. HTH Paul De Bie http://www.scavalon .be http://scavalon. blogspot.com http://pollekepik. blogspot.com _____ From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Larry Fish Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 12:51 PM Subject: RE: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features. Paul, Can you send me a copy of the Compass data you are using? Send it directly to me if you are concerned about it getting out into the public: [email protected] Also, send me the UTM coordinates of the entrance separately and also the Longitude and Latitude would be good so I can check the data against several different references. Larry _____ From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Paul De Bie Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 3:17 AM Subject: RE: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features. Hi Larry, I've tried in Windows Control panel to put my International options on US. OK, Compass now creates a KML file with the cave and including passages. However it is not exactly positioned in GE where it should be. In one case, the cave is about hundred meters off. In another case, it is several hundreds of kilometers off (it seems as if Compass is interpreting the UTM European Datum 1950 30 coordinates as being 31 ? Both caves have got their Base location set, approximately. Both caves have got fixed stations (entrances) that are set to the EXACT coordinates. The coordinates that Compass is calculating have always been exact for these caves (e.g. when looking at the coordinates for each station) Yet in the Google Earth export there is a shift. Can you explain what is happening? TIA Paul De Bie http://www.scavalon .be http://scavalon. blogspot.com http://pollekepik. blogspot.com -----Original Message----- From: compass-users@ yahoogroups.com [mailto:compass-users@ yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul De Bie Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 10:44 AM To: compass-users@ yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features. Hi Larry, great stuff, i've been waiting for this all of my life :-) But, here in Europe it doesn't work. Google earth drwas some kind of track but it goes all the way from the northpole to the equator... I think it has got to do with the decimal sign. If I look at your Fulfords example: -106.65468497,39.49340730 -106.65463232,39.49342560 -106.65460472,39.49340939 -106.65466668,39.49338156 -106.65468497,39.49340730 However when exporting one of my caves: 4,94347699,50,29083616 4,94345354,50,29082402 4,94344972,50,29082957 4,94347601,50,29084567 4,94347699,50,29083616 I think Google Earth will only accept a "." as the decimal sign. But over here, computers are most of the time using the "," as the decimal sign. I hope you can fix this, because I would sure like to use this option! TIA Paul De Bie http://www.scavalon .be http://scavalon. blogspot.com http://pollekepik. blogspot.com -----Original Message----- From: compass-users@ yahoogroups.com [mailto:compass-users@ yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of lfish222 Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 9:36 AM To: compass-users@ yahoogroups.com Subject: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features. Hi Everybody, I wanted to let everyone know that I have just released a new version of Compass with a special new feature. The latest version will allow you to export your cave data as KML files. KML files are used by Google Earth to display all kinds of geographic information. In this case, Compass exports the passage information in the KML file. When Google Earth reads the file, it overlays the terrain around the cave with passage outlines. This allows you to see the cave in relation to terrain features. The KML files can be posted on the internet for other people to look at. For example, if you have Google Earth installed and you click on or paste the following link in your browser, you will get to see Fulford Cave and the terrain around it: http://www.fountain ware.com/compass/Fulford.kml Even though the cave is very well known and visited by lots of non- cavers, it is still fairly pristine, probably because of the terrain and the steep hike up to the entrance. It is also located in some very beautiful mountain terrain. There is a 14,000 foot (4,267 meter) peak and a wilderness area immediately to the east. Larry ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }
Messsage #: 116
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 21:58:49 -0700 From: "Paul R. Jorgenson" Subject: Re: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features. I have seen several instances of Google having 100 meter offsets between an expected location, visually, and the displayed position as geographic coordinates. Google is more of a "pretty picture" view as opposed to a real mappers cartographic view. And, for most purposes, 100 meters is close enough - but it is a damn long belly crawl! Modern GPS receivers that have your particular datum installed should be able to do the coordinate conversion to any other datum in their database. Type in the coordinates with your native datum selected then change the datum and watch the numbers change. Changing back to your native datum should give the original numbers. The GPS, like Google maps, work natively in WGS84 and perform the calculation to display in your selected datum "on the fly". ================================ Paul R. Jorgenson KE7HR Phoenix, AZ NSS 39382FE - No caves to speak of. ================================ v\:* { BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML) } o\:* { BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML) } w\:* { BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML) } .shape { BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML) } st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }
Messsage #: 117
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 08:08:37 -0500 (CDT) From: Dwight Livingston Subject: Re: RE: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features. Larry I made KML file for Shovel Eater Cave in Germany Valley. A lot of the cavers involved really liked seeing it on Google Earth. Thanks for adding that feature to Compass. On my machine, when the 3d Export window comes up, I find the export button is hidden. I have to stretch the window to see it. This caused some frustration until I happened upon it, then more because I didn;t realize what I had done. I was also a little disappointed that the KML was a projection on the surface, rather than a 3D object. Could that be an option in some way? Thanks Dwight
Messsage #: 118
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 08:14:22 -0500 From: "Aaron Addison" Subject: RE: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features. This is a limitation of GE. It will not display subsurface data. It is rumored that ArcExplorer (free download) will display subsurface data, although I have never seen a demo of this capability. Cheers, Aaron ________________________________ Aaron Addison University GIS Coordinator Washington University in St. Louis Campus Box 1169 One Brookings Drive St. Louis, MO 63130-4899 314 935 6198 - office [email protected] ________________________________ I was also a little disappointed that the KML was a projection on the surface, rather than a 3D object. Could that be an option in some way? Thanks Dwight _ v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }
Messsage #: 119
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 21:30:02 +0200 From: "Paul De Bie" Subject: RE: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features. Hi Larry, thanks for your very detailed answer. See below for my comments. cheers Paul De Bie http://www.scavalon.be http://scavalon.blogspot.com http://pollekepik.blogspot.com _____ From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Larry Fish Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 6:36 AM Subject: RE: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features. Paul, I think I have solved both KML problems you are experiencing. I will start by talking about the KML issues: 1. The first issue I saw this same problem when I first tested the Fulford Cave data. Apparently, it is an artifact left over from some old bug or quasi-bug in the Project Manager. Most of the time, the incorrect values are toward the end of the MAK files and so they are not used by the other parts of the Project Manager. OK, this problem is fixed with your new version! Thanks, works super now. 2. The second problem you describe is a small offset, (usually on the order of a few hundred meters,) in the caves location. I think this is being caused by the way Google Earth converts between Longitude and Latitude and UTM. All coordinates in Google Earth are specified and calculated in Longitude and Latitude. You can have Google Earth display UTM coordinates, but it uses the "WGS84 Datum" to calculate the UTM coordinates and there doesn't appear to be a way to change it: http://earth.google.com/userguide/v4/ug_importdata.html Since you are using European 1950, there will always be a discrepancy between the UTM coordinates in Compass compared to the UTM coordinates in Google Earth. The way to solve the problem is to use Longitude and Latitude as your base coordinates when you are working with Google Earth. If you enter UTM coordinates in European 1950 and Compass converts it Long/Lat that Long/Lat won't correspond to the UTM coordinates you view in Google Earth. Sorry, I don't understand what the problem exactly is. It is Compass that writes the KML file, and so it is Compass that converts my coordinates (UTM ED1950) that it finds in the MAK file, to LAT/LON, right? So if there is an offset, then it is already there in the KML file and it has been caused by Compass. Google doesn't have a clue of what the original datum of the coordinates was. (I have also made software that converts coordinates for use in GE. It works without problems. Source coordinates can be in different formats: UTM ED50, Lambert, WGS84 etc. The result coordinates are calculated into Lat/LOn (what GE likes most :-) ) and they all show without an offset). Are you sure the Compass Geocalculator handles ED1950 coordinates correctly? In my previous mail I gave you an example of a big difference between certain coordinates converted with one popular convertor, and with Compass Geocalculator. You didn't comment on that, what is your opinion about it? I've just retried this exercise with a reliable online convertor: http://www.gps2cad.com/coordtrans/coordconvert.aspx Try the pair X=684243m and Y=4757321m (UTM ED50 zone 30) The outcome is exactly what I already mailed. When doing this with Compass Geocalculator, there is a difference of about 95m/123 m which is quite big and it could explain for the offset I see in Google Earth. Now, I don't know if you are using the Compass Geocalculator for your conversion in the Export to Google Earth option, but if this is the case, then I believe the culprit might be there... (NB: A question: what is the "Enable Datum Conversion" checkbox on the Geocalculator for? ) To verify this idea, I did the following experiment. I used your UTM coordinates to locate a point in Google Earth and then marked it. I then read the Long/Lat from Google Earth's and entered those coordinates into Compass. Finally, I recreated the KML file and this put the entrance, AN6, was right on the marked spot. This verifies that a Long/Lat taken from Google Earth and put into Compass will make the KML file land right on the spot. (One tricky point with the Compass Geo-Calculator is that it will change coordinates as you change Datum and other things. You need to re-check the Long/Lat occasionally to make sure it hasn't changed.) I don't think the datum really matters in this process, as long as both the Project Manager and the 3D Exporter are using the same datum. (That should happen automatically but, if you are having trouble it is worth checking.) Since Google Earth "thinks" in Longitude/Latitude, the UTM coordinates displayed in Google Earth don't matter as long as Compass converts back to the original Long/Lat. The residual problem for you seems to be that your best coordinates are in UTM, but to be compatible with Google Earth you have to focus and Long/Lat and ignore UTM. What I would do in your case is to use Google Earth to pick the correct location visually for the cave. (Since I didn't know where the entrance really should be, I couldn't do this for you.) You could also use a GPS receiver, but that would require a trip to Spain. Once you have established the correct location in Longitude and Latitude, enter the Long/Lat values in Compass. This will give a different UTM value, but in the case we are more concerned with aligning the entrance with Google Earth image. Finally, save the MAK files and re-export the KML file. The entrance should now fall exactly where it should on the Google Earth image. If you are worried about having the wrong UTM coordinates in the MAK file, you can create a separate, special MAK file just for use with Google Earth. Yes, I understand what you mean. That would be a possibility: to correct the offset by cheating with the coordinates. I'll consider it. There is also the possibility that Google's aerial photos are incorrectly aligned with the grid. I have certainly seen misalignments between the elevation points and the images, so it seems very possible. If there are misalignments between the coordinates and images, you could have the correct coordinates and the KML file would not line up with certain landmarks. Yes, I have seen misalignment between elevation and images in the order of 100 m. For sure GE is not hyperprecise, but in general it is quite OK... 3. I don't really have an idea about what is causing the problem where your settings are lost when you install a new version. The default information is saved in these three files: comp32.ini, cavevw32.ini and CaveEd32.ini. They are normally stored in the Windows directory on your computer. They don't get overwritten when a new copy of Compass is installed, so I'm not sure how the setting could be changed. (You can make copies of these files and restore them if the settings unexpectedly change.) It is possible that you have more than one copy of the files. Windows will always take a local copy over the one that is in the Windows directory. The problem could occur if you have installed Compass in a non-standard directory and the "INI" files are in that directory. If you installed a new version in the Standard Directory, it would supersede the old version and the "INI" files would switch to the Windows directory and you'd lose all your old settings. That is the only explanation that I can find for the problem. Well I have Compass installed in a non-standard folder, but there are no INI files there. The Compass INI files are located in the Windows dir. Now, I just installed your latest version, and this time it did not touch the INI files. Weird... But no big deal, I always check my settings after installing a new version. Let me know what you think. Larry _____ From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Paul De Bie Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 6:37 AM Subject: RE: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features. Hi Larry, I've sent you an example in a private mail. Two other problems: - installing this new version resulted in loosing all of my preferences (in Project Manager and Viewer). This is quite tricky because there are some prefreences (such as "use UTM convergence" or "Calculate declinations" that have a very big effect on the rotation of your survey! BTW (we've talked about that several times, long ago): these two preferences should really be unique per Project. - I told you about one cave that is shown in GE, shifted about 100 metres from its real location. I've seen what is causing this: it is your geocalculator. Probably you are using it also for calculating all the coordinates for the KML file? An example: UTM ED50 (30T) X=684243 m Y=475732 m converted into UTM decimal degrees this gives me, with the convertor I'm always using (and which is IMO precise to 1 m): 42,944401� and -0,74292427� However with your Geocalculator I get: 42,945485� and -0,74172354� The difference seems trivial, but when converting this outcome back to UTM ED50 this gives: X=684337,8 m Y=4757443,9 m which is 94,8, resp 122,9 m different from what I consider the "correct" position. HTH Paul De Bie http://www.scavalon .be http://scavalon. blogspot.com http://pollekepik. blogspot.com v\:* { BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML) } o\:* { BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML) } w\:* { BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML) } .shape { BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML) } st1\:* { BEHAVIOR: url(#default#ieooui) } @font-face { font-family: Tahoma; } @page Section1 {size: 8.5in 11.0in; margin: 1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in; } #YGRP-MLMSG { FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: x-small; LINE-HEIGHT: normal; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-VARIANT: normal } #YGRP-MLMSG TABLE { } #YGRP-MLMSG PRE { FONT-SIZE: 100% } CODE { FONT-SIZE: 100% } #ygrp-mlmsg * { LINE-HEIGHT: 1.22em } #YGRP-ACTBAR .LEFT { FLOAT: left } #YGRP-VITAL UL LI .CT { FLOAT: right } #ygrp-vital A:hover { TEXT-DECORATION: underline } #ygrp-sponsor .ad A:hover { TEXT-DECORATION: underline } o { FONT-SIZE: 0px } P.MsoNormal { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman" } LI.MsoNormal { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman" } DIV.MsoNormal { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; 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MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman"; TEXT-ALIGN: right; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto } DIV.ct1 { FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0in; COLOR: #ff7900; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman"; TEXT-ALIGN: right; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto } P.cat1 { FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman"; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto } LI.cat1 { FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman"; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto } DIV.cat1 { FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman"; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto } P.ad6 { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman"; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto } LI.ad6 { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman"; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto } DIV.ad6 { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman"; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto } SPAN.EmailStyle39 { COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-style-type: personal-reply } DIV.Section1 { page: Section1 } Hi Larry, thanks for your very detailed answer. See below for my comments. cheers Paul De Biehttp://www.scavalon.behttp://scavalon.blogspot.comhttp://pollekepik.blogspot.com From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Larry FishSent: Monday, July 21, 2008 6:36 AMTo: [email protected]: RE: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features. Paul, I think I have solved both KML problems you are experiencing. I will start by talking about the KML issues: 1. The first issue I saw this same problem when I first tested the Fulford Cave data. Apparently, it is an artifact left over from some old bug or quasi-bug in the Project Manager. Most of the time, the incorrect values are toward the end of the MAK files and so they are not used by the other parts of the Project Manager. OK, this problem is fixed with your new version! Thanks, works super now. 2. The second problem you describe is a small offset, (usually on the order of a few hundred meters,) in the caves location. I think this is being caused by the way Google Earth converts between Longitude and Latitude and UTM. All coordinates in Google Earth are specified and calculated in Longitude and Latitude. You can have Google Earth display UTM coordinates, but it uses the "WGS84 Datum" to calculate the UTM coordinates and there doesn't appear to be a way to change it: http://earth.google.com/userguide/v4/ug_importdata.html Since you are using European 1950, there will always be a discrepancy between the UTM coordinates in Compass compared to the UTM coordinates in Google Earth. The way to solve the problem is to use Longitude and Latitude as your base coordinates when you are working with Google Earth. If you enter UTM coordinates in European 1950 and Compass converts it Long/Lat that Long/Lat won't correspond to the UTM coordinates you view in Google Earth. Sorry, I don't understand what the problem exactly is. It is Compass that writes the KML file, and so it is Compass that converts my coordinates (UTM ED1950) that it finds in the MAK file, to LAT/LON, right? So if there is an offset, then it is already there in the KML file and it has been caused by Compass. Google doesn't have a clue of what the original datum of the coordinates was. (I have also made software that converts coordinates for use in GE. It works without problems. Source coordinates can be in different formats: UTM ED50, Lambert, WGS84 etc. The result coordinates are calculated into Lat/LOn (what GE likes most :-) ) and they all show without an offset). Are you sure the Compass Geocalculator handles ED1950 coordinates correctly? In my previous mail I gave you an example of a big difference between certain coordinates converted with one popular convertor, and with Compass Geocalculator. You didn't comment on that, what is your opinion about it? I've just retried this exercise with a reliable online convertor: http://www.gps2cad.com/coordtrans/coordconvert.aspx Try the pair X=684243m and Y=4757321m (UTM ED50 zone 30) The outcome is exactly what I already mailed. When doing this with Compass Geocalculator, there is a difference of about 95m/123 m which is quite big and it could explain for the offset I see in Google Earth. Now, I don't know if you are using the Compass Geocalculator for your conversion in the Export to Google Earth option, but if this is the case, then I believe the culprit might be there... (NB: A question: what is the "Enable Datum Conversion" checkbox on the Geocalculator for? ) To verify this idea, I did the following experiment. I used your UTM coordinates to locate a point in Google Earth and then marked it. I then read the Long/Lat from Google Earth's and entered those coordinates into Compass. Finally, I recreated the KML file and this put the entrance, AN6, was right on the marked spot. This verifies that a Long/Lat taken from Google Earth and put into Compass will make the KML file land right on the spot. (One tricky point with the Compass Geo-Calculator is that it will change coordinates as you change Datum and other things. You need to re-check the Long/Lat occasionally to make sure it hasn't changed.) I don't think the datum really matters in this process, as long as both the Project Manager and the 3D Exporter are using the same datum. (That should happen automatically but, if you are having trouble it is worth checking.) Since Google Earth "thinks" in Longitude/Latitude, the UTM coordinates displayed in Google Earth don't matter as long as Compass converts back to the original Long/Lat. The residual problem for you seems to be that your best coordinates are in UTM, but to be compatible with Google Earth you have to focus and Long/Lat and ignore UTM. What I would do in your case is to use Google Earth to pick the correct location visually for the cave. (Since I didn't know where the entrance really should be, I couldn't do this for you.) You could also use a GPS receiver, but that would require a trip to Spain. Once you have established the correct location in Longitude and Latitude, enter the Long/Lat values in Compass. This will give a different UTM value, but in the case we are more concerned with aligning the entrance with Google Earth image. Finally, save the MAK files and re-export the KML file. The entrance should now fall exactly where it should on the Google Earth image. If you are worried about having the wrong UTM coordinates in the MAK file, you can create a separate, special MAK file just for use with Google Earth. Yes, I understand what you mean. That would be a possibility: to correct the offset by cheating with the coordinates. I'll consider it. There is also the possibility that Google's aerial photos are incorrectly aligned with the grid. I have certainly seen misalignments between the elevation points and the images, so it seems very possible. If there are misalignments between the coordinates and images, you could have the correct coordinates and the KML file would not line up with certain landmarks. Yes, I have seen misalignment between elevation and images in the order of 100 m. For sure GE is not hyperprecise, but in general it is quite OK... 3. I don't really have an idea about what is causing the problem where your settings are lost when you install a new version. The default information is saved in these three files: comp32.ini, cavevw32.ini and CaveEd32.ini. They are normally stored in the Windows directory on your computer. They don't get overwritten when a new copy of Compass is installed, so I'm not sure how the setting could be changed. (You can make copies of these files and restore them if the settings unexpectedly change.) It is possible that you have more than one copy of the files. Windows will always take a local copy over the one that is in the Windows directory. The problem could occur if you have installed Compass in a non-standard directory and the "INI" files are in that directory. If you installed a new version in the Standard Directory, it would supersede the old version and the "INI" files would switch to the Windows directory and you'd lose all your old settings. That is the only explanation that I can find for the problem. Well I have Compass installed in a non-standard folder, but there are no INI files there. The Compass INI files are located in the Windows dir. Now, I just installed your latest version, and this time it did not touch the INI files. Weird... But no big deal, I always check my settings after installing a new version. Let me know what you think. Larry From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Paul De BieSent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 6:37 AMTo: [email protected]: RE: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features. Hi Larry, I've sent you an example in a private mail. Two other problems: - installing this new version resulted in loosing all of my preferences (in Project Manager and Viewer). This is quite tricky because there are some prefreences (such as "use UTM convergence" or "Calculate declinations" that have a very big effect on the rotation of your survey! BTW (we've talked about that several times, long ago): these two preferences should really be unique per Project. - I told you about one cave that is shown in GE, shifted about 100 metres from its real location. I've seen what is causing this: it is your geocalculator. Probably you are using it also for calculating all the coordinates for the KML file? An example: UTM ED50 (30T) X=684243 m Y=475732 m converted into UTM decimal degrees this gives me, with the convertor I'm always using (and which is IMO precise to 1 m): 42,944401� and -0,74292427� However with your Geocalculator I get: 42,945485� and -0,74172354� The difference seems trivial, but when converting this outcome back to UTM ED50 this gives: X=684337,8 m Y=4757443,9 m which is 94,8, resp 122,9 m different from what I consider the "correct" position. HTH Paul De Biehttp://www.scavalon.behttp://scavalon.blogspot.comhttp://pollekepik.blogspot.com
Messsage #: 120
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 05:11:33 -0600 From: "Larry Fish" Subject: RE: RE: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features. Dwight, On my machine, when the 3d Export window comes up, I find the export button is hidden. I have to stretch the window to see it. This caused some frustration until I happened upon it, then more because I didn;t realize what I had done. Strange. The Export Button for the KML feature is higher on the page than any of the other Export buttons. I can move it higher, but on the other pages, there are boxes and controls that would get in the way, so you would have trouble on those pages. The windows size is set to 640x562, which should be fine on any Windows display that is 800x600 or bigger. Are you running a small display? I was also a little disappointed that the KML was a projection on the surface, rather than a 3D object. Could that be an option in some way? Actually, me too! Unfortunately, Google Earth doesn't offer any way to make the ground transparent. If it did, I would put the full passage model underground. In this case, the best I can do is to put the passage "footprint" on top of the ground. It is not perfect, but it does give you an indication of the relationship between the cave and terrain features. Larry
Messsage #: 121
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 05:14:31 -0600 From: "Larry Fish" Subject: RE: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features. Paul, I'm working on an answer to your questions, but I am very busy with work this week, and it will take a while to do all the testing I need to do to figure out what is going on with UTM/Long/Lat discrepancies. I'll try to have some answers in the next couple of days. Larry
Messsage #: 122
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 19:27:46 +0200 From: "Paul De Bie" Subject: RE: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features. Hi Larry, take your time. But meanwhile I've determined that is is, without doubt, the conversion which Compass does from UTM/ED1950 tot Lat/Lon. I simply converted and entered the coordinates in one of my MAK files, which were originally in UTM/ED1950, in UTM/WGS1984. Then Export with Compass to Google Earth. The resulting KML file is perfect. The calculated Lat/Lon coordinates are exact. It shows in Google Earth exactly where it should be, with remarkable precision (so Google Earth ain't that bad :-) ) I guess the conversion routine you are using (or the Geocalculator) considers that the UTM coordinates which are entered in the File Node fixed points, are in UTM/WGS1984. And in fact, in this window, there is not even a combobox for selecting the Map Datum. There is just a checkbox "Use UTM". I thought that setting the base location, determined the Map Datum for the whole MAK file? Because there you do have that combobox. Unfortunately, here in Belgium, and also in Spain, the Map Datum that is used for UTM coordinates is in European Datum 1950. There is a (slow) evolution towards WGS84 however. Meanwhile, I will make different versions of each MAK file: one with coordinates in UTM/ED50, one (for Google EXport) in WGS84! best regards Paul De Bie http://www.scavalon.be http://scavalon.blogspot.com http://pollekepik.blogspot.com -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Larry Fish Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2008 1:15 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features. Paul, I'm working on an answer to your questions, but I am very busy with work this week, and it will take a while to do all the testing I need to do to figure out what is going on with UTM/Long/Lat discrepancies. I'll try to have some answers in the next couple of days. Larry ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links
Messsage #: 123
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 14:59:24 -0500 (CDT) From: Dwight Livingston Subject: Re: RE: RE: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features. Larry You might build them above ground, as in this example . . . http://www.gearthblog.com/blog/archives/2007/11/large_hadron_collider_visible_in_go.html I admit it is not as pleasing as seeing it below the surface. Just a thought. As to the hidden button, I'll send you a screen shot and my system specs this evening. Dwight ====================From: Larry Fish Date: 2008/07/22 Tue AM 07:11:33 EDT Subject: RE: RE: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features. Dwight, On my machine, when the 3d Export window comes up, I find the export button is hidden. I have to stretch the window to see it. This caused some frustration until I happened upon it, then more because I didn;t realize what I had done. Strange. The Export Button for the KML feature is higher on the page than any of the other Export buttons. I can move it higher, but on the other pages, there are boxes and controls that would get in the way, so you would have trouble on those pages. The windows size is set to 640x562, which should be fine on any Windows display that is 800x600 or bigger. Are you running a small display? I was also a little disappointed that the KML was a projection on the surface, rather than a 3D object. Could that be an option in some way? Actually, me too! Unfortunately, Google Earth doesn't offer any way to make the ground transparent. If it did, I would put the full passage model underground. In this case, the best I can do is to put the passage "footprint" on top of the ground. It is not perfect, but it does give you an indication of the relationship between the cave and terrain features. Larry
Messsage #: 124
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 15:21:08 -0500 From: "Aaron Addison" Subject: RE: RE: RE: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features. Another option might be to leverage the "clamp to earth" setting in GE. This would allow for the creation of a true 3D KML/KMZ file that GE could interpret while also allow other programs that can deal with subsurface display to also work. Thoughts? Aaron ________________________________ Aaron Addison University GIS Coordinator Washington University in St. Louis Campus Box 1169 One Brookings Drive St. Louis, MO 63130-4899 314 935 6198 - office [email protected] ________________________________ From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dwight Livingston Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2008 2:59 PM Subject: Re: RE: RE: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features. Larry You might build them above ground, as in this example . . . http://www.gearthblog.com/blog/archives/2007/11/large_hadron_collider_vi sible_in_go.html I admit it is not as pleasing as seeing it below the surface. Just a thought. As to the hidden button, I'll send you a screen shot and my system specs this evening. Dwight ====================From: Larry Fish Date: 2008/07/22 Tue AM 07:11:33 EDT Subject: RE: RE: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features. Dwight, On my machine, when the 3d Export window comes up, I find the export button is hidden. I have to stretch the window to see it. This caused some frustration until I happened upon it, then more because I didn;t realize what I had done. Strange. The Export Button for the KML feature is higher on the page than any of the other Export buttons. I can move it higher, but on the other pages, there are boxes and controls that would get in the way, so you would have trouble on those pages. The windows size is set to 640x562, which should be fine on any Windows display that is 800x600 or bigger. Are you running a small display? I was also a little disappointed that the KML was a projection on the surface, rather than a 3D object. Could that be an option in some way? Actually, me too! Unfortunately, Google Earth doesn't offer any way to make the ground transparent. If it did, I would put the full passage model underground. In this case, the best I can do is to put the passage "footprint" on top of the ground. It is not perfect, but it does give you an indication of the relationship between the cave and terrain features. Larry v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }
Messsage #: 125
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 09:45:11 +0000 (GMT) From: miltos klidis Hello group, This is amessage to anyone that has heard of Chris Docksey. He must have been in this group back in 2000. Can you olease help me locate him? e-mail , address, current work.... anything. Thank you Miltos ___________________________________________________________ II?I�I�I1I�I�I?I�I1I�I_I,I� Yahoo!; I'I�I?I�I,IrI�I�I,I� I,I� I�I�I�I�I�I�I,I1I�I� I�I�I�I?I�I�I,I� (spam); II� Yahoo! Mail I'I1I�I,I-I,I�I1 I,I�I� I�I�I�I?I,I�I?I� I'I.I�I�I,Ir I?I?I�I�I,I�I�I_I� I�I�I,I� I,I%I� I�I�I�I�I�I�I,I1I�IZI� I�I�I�I.I�I�I,I%I� http://login.yahoo.com/config/mail?.intl=gr Hello group, This is amessage to anyone that has heard of Chris Docksey. He must have been in this group back in 2000. Can you olease help me locate him? e-mail , address, current work.... anything. Thank you Miltos II?I�I�I1I�I�I?I�I1I�I_I,I� Yahoo! I'I�I?I�I,IrI�I�I,I� I,I� I�I�I�I�I�I�I,I1I�I� I�I�I�I? I�I�I,I� (spam); II� Yahoo! Mail I'I1I�I,I-I,I�I1 I,I�I� I�I�I�I?I,I�I?I� I'I.I�I�I,Ir I?I?I�I�I,I�I�I_I� I�I�I,I� I,I%I� I�I�I�I�I�I�I,I1I�IZI� I�I�I�I.I�I�I,I%I� http://login.yahoo.com/config/mail?.intl=gr
Messsage #: 126
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 05:57:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Bruce Trotter Subject: Need a hpgl 7475/7500 driver Compass Users, I use CorelDraw 5 as a drawing program for cave maps. On my old computer I had the HPGL7475 driver that outputted a file that I was able to import into CorelDraw. My computer crashed and I lost the driver and cannot find the driver anywhere. I have looked at HP's site as well as some other driver sites. The usual thing at most driver websites is that you sign up or pay and then when you go through all the trouble they tell you the driver is unavailable. Does anyone have that driver or know where I can get it? I would be most grateful. My CorelDraw still works just fine. I see no reason to buy Illustrator or any other new software. Thanks for your help, Bruce Trotter Compass Users, I use CorelDraw 5 as a drawing program for cave maps. On my old computer I had the HPGL7475 driver that outputted a file that I was able to import into CorelDraw. My computer crashed and I lost the driver and cannot find the driver anywhere. I have looked at HP's site as well as some other driver sites. The usual thing at most driver websites is that you sign up or pay and then when you go through all the trouble they tell you the driver is unavailable. Does anyone have that driver or know where I can get it? I would be most grateful. My CorelDraw still works just fine. I see no reason to buy Illustrator or any other new software. Thanks for your help, Bruce Trotter
Messsage #: 127
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 08:30:59 -0700 From: "Paul R. Jorgenson" Subject: Re: [compass-users] Need a hpgl 7475/7500 driver Bruce, If the HP 7000 series driver for Windows XP will work, it is available at HP. http://h20000.www2.hp.com/bizsupport/TechSupport/DriverDownload.jsp?prodNameId=12725&lang=en&cc=us&prodTypeId=18972&prodSeriesId=25257&taskId=135 or search for "HP 7000". ================================ Paul R. Jorgenson KE7HR Phoenix, AZ NSS 39382FE - No caves to speak of. ================================ ----- Original Message ----- From: Bruce Trotter To: [email protected] Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2008 5:57 AM Subject: [compass-users] Need a hpgl 7475/7500 driver Compass Users, I use CorelDraw 5 as a drawing program for cave maps. On my old computer I had the HPGL7475 driver that outputted a file that I was able to import into CorelDraw. My computer crashed and I lost the driver and cannot find the driver anywhere. I have looked at HP's site as well as some other driver sites. The usual thing at most driver websites is that you sign up or pay and then when you go through all the trouble they tell you the driver is unavailable. Does anyone have that driver or know where I can get it? I would be most grateful. My CorelDraw still works just fine. I see no reason to buy Illustrator or any other new software. Thanks for your help, Bruce Trotter DIV { MARGIN: 0px } Bruce, If the HP 7000 series driver for Windows XP will work, it is available at HP. http://h20000.www2.hp.com/bizsupport/TechSupport/DriverDownload.jsp?prodNameId=12725&lang=en&cc=us&prodTypeId=18972&prodSeriesId=25257&taskId=135 or search for "HP 7000". ================================= Paul R. Jorgenson KE7HR Phoenix, AZ NSS 39382FE - No caves to speak of.================================ ----- Original Message ----- From: Bruce Trotter To: [email protected] Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2008 5:57 AM Subject: [compass-users] Need a hpgl 7475/7500 driver Compass Users, I use CorelDraw 5 as a drawing program for cave maps. On my old computer I had the HPGL7475 driver that outputted a file that I was able to import into CorelDraw. My computer crashed and I lost the driver and cannot find the driver anywhere. I have looked at HP's site as well as some other driver sites. The usual thing at most driver websites is that you sign up or pay and then when you go through all the trouble they tell you the driver is unavailable. Does anyone have that driver or know where I can get it? I would be most grateful. My CorelDraw still works just fine. I see no reason to buy Illustrator or any other new software. Thanks for your help, Bruce Trotter
Messsage #: 128
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 17:04:38 -0000 From: "Paul Jorgenson" Subject: Re: Need a hpgl 7475/7500 driver If the driver method does not work, then you might consider the open source (free...) program Inkscape available at http://www.inkscape.org/ to work with. Many people have been using it with success. Paul KE7HR in Phoenix. wrote: Compass Users, I use CorelDraw 5 as a drawing program for cave maps. On my old computer I had the HPGL7475 driver that outputted a file that I was able to import into CorelDraw. My computer crashed and I lost the driver and cannot find the driver anywhere. I have looked at HP's site as well as some other driver sites. The usual thing at most driver websites is that you sign up or pay and then when you go through all the trouble they tell you the driver is unavailable. Does anyone have that driver or know where I can get it? I would be most grateful. My CorelDraw still works just fine. I see no reason to buy Illustrator or any other new software. Thanks for your help, Bruce Trotter
Messsage #: 129
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 20:45:12 +0200 From: Roger Schuster Subject: Re: [compass-users] Need a hpgl 7475/7500 driver Hi Bruce, Bruce Trotter schrieb: I use CorelDraw 5 as a drawing program for cave maps. On my old computer I had the HPGL7475 driver that outputted a file that I was able to import into CorelDraw. My computer crashed and I lost the driver and cannot find the driver anywhere. Some years ago I was in the same situation as you. Newer versions of Windows than Win 98 don't have drivers for the old HP plotters on board. They are also no longer supported by HP. If you run a more recent Windows version now you must switch over to another vector graphics format to transfer your surveys from Compass to the drawing program. Have you tested Windows Meta Files (File | Save Screen Images...)? You may also use a Postscript printer driver and print to a Postscript file. My CorelDraw still works just fine. I see no reason to buy Illustrator or any other new software. Yes, but on the other hand a less palaeolithic Corel Draw OEM release is rather cheap. I payed for my Corel 11 circa 12 EUR. It supports WMF and Postscript very well, so you don't need the latest version for drawing maps. Roger
Messsage #: 130
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 15:50:12 -0600 From: "Larry Fish" Subject: New Version Jim Coke just found a bug in the latest version of Compass that causes the Viewer to leave out all the "Section Information". It was a result of the changes I made to add the KML/Google Earth features. ("No good deed goes unpunished.") There is a new version up on the internet that fixes the problem. Larry
Messsage #: 131
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 05:41:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Bruce Trotter Subject: Re: [compass-users] Need a hpgl 7475/7500 driver Thank you Roger and Paul for the suggestions. Apparently the only drivers HP has are for 64 bit XP. I have Windows XP but the 32 bit version. I did�try the File, Save Screen Images but the image was so bad that it would be difficult to draw a map. Where do you get a postscript driver? How does the new version of CorelDraw import the info from COMPASS? Does it has postscript drivers? Thanks for the help, Bruce From: Roger Schuster Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2008 2:45:12 PM Subject: Re: [compass-users] Need a hpgl 7475/7500 driver Hi Bruce, Bruce Trotter schrieb: I use CorelDraw 5 as a drawing program for cave maps. On my old computer I had the HPGL7475 driver that outputted a file that I was able to import into CorelDraw. My computer crashed and I lost the driver and cannot find the driver anywhere. Some years ago I was in the same situation as you. Newer versions of Windows than Win 98 don't have drivers for the old HP plotters on board. They are also no longer supported by HP. If you run a more recent Windows version now you must switch over to another vector graphics format to transfer your surveys from Compass to the drawing program. Have you tested Windows Meta Files (File | Save Screen Images...)? You may also use a Postscript printer driver and print to a Postscript file. My CorelDraw still works just fine. I see no reason to buy Illustrator or any other new software. Yes, but on the other hand a less palaeolithic Corel Draw OEM release is rather cheap. I payed for my Corel 11 circa 12 EUR. It supports WMF and Postscript very well, so you don't need the latest version for drawing maps. Roger Thank you Roger and Paul for the suggestions. Apparently the only drivers HP has are for 64 bit XP. I have Windows XP but the 32 bit version. I did try the File, Save Screen Images but the image was so bad that it would be difficult to draw a map. Where do you get a postscript driver? How does the new version of CorelDraw import the info from COMPASS? Does it has postscript drivers? Thanks for the help, Bruce ----- Original Message ----From: Roger Schuster <[email protected]>To: [email protected]: Wednesday, July 30, 2008 2:45:12 PMSubject: Re: [compass-users] Need a hpgl 7475/7500 driver Hi Bruce,Bruce Trotter schrieb:> I use CorelDraw 5 as a drawing program for cave maps. On my old computer > I had the HPGL7475 driver that outputted a file that I was able to > import into CorelDraw. My computer crashed and I lost the driver and > cannot find the driver anywhere. Some years ago I was in the same situation as you. Newer versions of Windows than Win 98 don't have drivers for the old HP plotters on board. They are also no longer supported by HP. If you run a more recent Windows version now you must switch over to another vector graphics format to transfer your surveys from Compass to the drawing program.Have you tested Windows Meta Files (File | Save Screen Images...)? You may also use a Postscript printer driver and print to a Postscript file.> My CorelDraw still works > just fine. I see no reason to buy Illustrator or any other new software.Yes, but on the other hand a less palaeolithic Corel Draw OEM release is rather cheap. I payed for my Corel 11 circa 12 EUR. It supports WMF and Postscript very well, so you don't need the latest version for drawing maps.Roger
Messsage #: 132
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 20:38:46 +0200 From: Roger Schuster Subject: Re: [compass-users] Need a hpgl 7475/7500 driver Hi Bruce, Bruce Trotter schrieb: Where do you get a postscript driver? You can for example use the driver for the HP Color Laser Jet 5/5M PS from your Windows installation media. Apple Laserwriter and others will do the job also. How does the new version of CorelDraw import the info from COMPASS? Does it has postscript drivers? Corel hasn't any drivers. You can open the postscript or WMF file like a Corel Draw drawing with "File | Open" and the survey will be in scale perfectly. Do not use "File | Import..."! Roger
Messsage #: 133
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 20:58:21 +0200 From: Roger Schuster Subject: Adjusting scanned sketches Hi cavers, because we are talking about importing survey data into drawing applications like Corel Draw I will use the chance to ask a burning question. While surveying a cave I sketch the survey shots, the passage walls and important content on paper. Later I scan the sketch and load the resulting bitmap as background layer in my drawing program. On top I load the data from Compass as vector graphics. Unfortunately the sketch is seldom as accurate as the survey data. There are always some minor errors and distortions. This makes it sometimes very hard to rotate and stretch the sketch to match it perfectly to the survey. How do you solve this problem? I know WinKarst can load scanned bitmaps and the user marks the stations on screen. WinKarst "morphs" the sketch accordingly to fit the positions on the bitmaps to the survey. But in my opinion the results aren't good. There is another application called "Carto" (http://www.psc-cavers.org/carto/) which does the same job. Unfortunately Cartos development stopped years ago and the software crashes very often. If you are lucky and the process runs to the end the results are rather good. Are there other techniques which I may have missed? Roger
Messsage #: 134
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 22:31:46 +0200 From: "Paul De Bie" Subject: RE: [compass-users] Adjusting scanned sketches Hi Roger, you could check out Therion. I haven't tried it myself, but some cavers I know use it. http://therion.speleo.sk/ Quite impressive. read Wookey's article to get the idea.. http://www.chaos.org.uk/survex/cp/CP33/CP33.pdf Whatever you use... the sketch should more or less be realistic. Paul De Bie http://www.scavalon.be http://scavalon.blogspot.com http://pollekepik.blogspot.com -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Roger Schuster Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2008 8:58 PM To: [email protected] Subject: [compass-users] Adjusting scanned sketches Hi cavers, because we are talking about importing survey data into drawing applications like Corel Draw I will use the chance to ask a burning question. While surveying a cave I sketch the survey shots, the passage walls and important content on paper. Later I scan the sketch and load the resulting bitmap as background layer in my drawing program. On top I load the data from Compass as vector graphics. Unfortunately the sketch is seldom as accurate as the survey data. There are always some minor errors and distortions. This makes it sometimes very hard to rotate and stretch the sketch to match it perfectly to the survey. How do you solve this problem? I know WinKarst can load scanned bitmaps and the user marks the stations on screen. WinKarst "morphs" the sketch accordingly to fit the positions on the bitmaps to the survey. But in my opinion the results aren't good. There is another application called "Carto" (http://www.psc-cavers.org/carto/) which does the same job. Unfortunately Cartos development stopped years ago and the software crashes very often. If you are lucky and the process runs to the end the results are rather good. Are there other techniques which I may have missed? Roger ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links
Messsage #: 135
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2008 02:47:18 -0600 From: "Larry Fish" Subject: KML Coordinates Paul, I have finally had a chance to spend some time looking at the coordinate conversion issues that you brought up last week. It took me a while to figure out what was going because the topic is complicated and the terminology varies across the field. My basic problem was that I didn't understand the difference between "Geodetic" and "Geocentric" coordinates. I had originally assumed that the Longitude/Latitude coordinates were absolute and weren't affected by the Datums and the shape of the earth because they could be measured using stars and a clock. I now realize that this only applies to "Geocentric" coordinates. What we are calculating are "Geodetic" coordinates, which are affected by the shape of the earth. When the Compass Geo-calculator converts UTM to Longitude and Latitude, it does so for the specified Datum. In other words, if you convert a UTM coordinate with ED1950, the Longitude Latitude will also be ED1950. To use the data with Google Earth, which uses WGS84, a second step has to be taken to convert the Long/Lat from ED1950 to WGS84. The Compass Geo-calculator will do the conversion; it just requires the second step. You actually touched on it when you asked this question: (NB: A question: what is the "Enable Datum Conversion" checkbox on the Geocalculator for? ) When you convert UTM to Long/Lat and vice versa, the conversion assumes that both the input and output coordinates will be in the specified datum. If you enable the "Enable Datum Conversion" option and then change the datum, the program will convert the currently displayed coordinates from the old datum to the new datum. Both Long/Lat and UTM are converted at the same time. Now, back to your coordinates: If I go to the online converter you suggested (http://www.gps2cad.com/coordtrans/coordconvert.aspx) and convert your coordinates (X = 684243 m and Y = 4757321 m), I get the following values for ED1950 and WGS84 output: ED1950 -0.7417� 42.9455� WGS84 -0.7429� 42.9444� If I do the same thing in Compass, I get the following values: ED1950 -0.7417235438 42.9454850016 WGS84 -0.7429379758 42.9443933002 The difference is that I have to do the Datum conversion as a second step, by enabling the "Enable Datum Conversion" option and then switching to WGS84. (Your online converter does both steps at once, which confused me, because every other converter I had seen didn't change the output Datum. In fact, they all just allow you to select one Datum.) So the problem with the KML converter was that it didn't do the second step. As a result of all this, I have added the Datum Conversion to the KML export feature. To test the conversion, I looked at station AN6 in your data. Your MAK files show the following UTM coordinates for AN6: AN6 = 684254.4 4757405.4 (I was surprised that I couldn't find the coordinates that you sent in your email in the MAK file.) Converting these values in Compass to Long/Lat gives the following values: ED1950 = -0.7415561445 42.9462416677 WGS84 = -0.7427701786 42.9451503535 Those values agree with the online calculator: -0.7428� 42.9452� Looking in Google Earth, I see that AN6 is located at: AN6 = -0.742757 42.945148 That appears to be within a few meters of where it should be. I have posted a new version on the internet. Check it out let me know what you think. Also, thank you very much for the feedback. It really allows me to refine issues like this and improve the performance of Compass. Larry
Messsage #: 136
Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2008 13:48:50 +0200 From: Roger Schuster Subject: Re: [compass-users] Adjusting scanned sketches Hi there, Paul De Bie schrieb: you could check out Therion. I haven't tried it myself, but some cavers I know use it. http://therion.speleo.sk/ I tested Therion for a long time (my first exercises two years ago). As an integrated software package (data processing *and* map drawing) it has some powerful features but I never got "warm" with it. The results don't match my taste. The maps are looking too "machine generated". Whatever you use... the sketch should more or less be realistic. Yes of course - a completely free-hand drawn sketch would be a problem for any kind of post processing. But back to my original question: How do you cavers handle the problem with (slightly) distorted sketches? Roger
Messsage #: 137
Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2008 09:53:16 -0400 From: Christian Chenier Subject: Re: [compass-users] Adjusting scanned sketches At 07:48 AM 03/08/2008, you wrote: But back to my original question: How do you cavers handle the problem with (slightly) distorted sketches? Just move, rotate and resize the scanned sketch to match the line plot. If you were careful drawing to scale (with a protractor, the Therion Protractor (nothing to do with the Therion software) or using Auriga's coordinates), you should get most survey stations ok and will only require moving the sketch occasionally. Of course, if you don't draw with the tools mentioned above (ie. you don't draw to scale), then it does become tedious (and the quality is questionable). Chris Christian Ch�nier Gatineau (Qu�bec), Canada (819) 772-8824
Messsage #: 138
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 06:05:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Bruce Trotter Subject: Re: [compass-users] Need a hpgl 7475/7500 driver Roger, I thought I should post a follow-up to my earlier question. I downloaded a trial version of CorelDraw and installed the driver for printing to a postscript file. The new CorelDraw brings it in like a charm. Now, I think I can get by buying an upgrade version of CorelDraw. It looks like I will buy the latest version since I am unsure whether and older copy of CorelDraw will do what I want. Thanks for your help, Bruce From: Roger Schuster Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2008 2:38:46 PM Subject: Re: [compass-users] Need a hpgl 7475/7500 driver Hi Bruce, Bruce Trotter schrieb: Where do you get a postscript driver? You can for example use the driver for the HP Color Laser Jet 5/5M PS from your Windows installation media. Apple Laserwriter and others will do the job also. How does the new version of CorelDraw import the info from COMPASS? Does it has postscript drivers? Corel hasn't any drivers. You can open the postscript or WMF file like a Corel Draw drawing with "File | Open" and the survey will be in scale perfectly. Do not use "File | Import..."! Roger Roger, I thought I should post a follow-up to my earlier question. I downloaded a trial version of CorelDraw and installed the driver for printing to a postscript file. The new CorelDraw brings it in like a charm. Now, I think I can get by buying an upgrade version of CorelDraw. It looks like I will buy the latest version since I am unsure whether and older copy of CorelDraw will do what I want. Thanks for your help, Bruce ----- Original Message ----From: Roger Schuster <[email protected]>To: [email protected]: Thursday, July 31, 2008 2:38:46 PMSubject: Re: [compass-users] Need a hpgl 7475/7500 driver Hi Bruce,Bruce Trotter schrieb:> Where do you get a postscript driver?You can for example use the driver for the HP Color Laser Jet 5/5M PS from your Windows installation media. Apple Laserwriter and others will do the job also.> How does the new version of CorelDraw import the info from COMPASS? Does > it has postscript drivers?Corel hasn't any drivers. You can open the postscript or WMF file like a Corel Draw drawing with "File | Open" and the survey will be in scale perfectly. Do not use "File | Import..."!Roger
Messsage #: 139
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 10:38:36 +0200 From: "Paul De Bie" Subject: RE: [compass-users] KML Coordinates HI Larry, just got back from a 3 week caving expe in Spain. I will study your answer one of these days when things get organized around here, but it looks as if you have fixed the problem. As always, thanks a lot for your very detailed answer. Meanwhile, the KML export function has been proven to be very useful to me! best regards Paul De Bie http://www.scavalon.be http://scavalon.blogspot.com http://pollekepik.blogspot.com -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Larry Fish Sent: Friday, August 01, 2008 10:47 AM To: [email protected] Subject: [compass-users] KML Coordinates Paul, I have finally had a chance to spend some time looking at the coordinate conversion issues that you brought up last week. It took me a while to figure out what was going because the topic is complicated and the terminology varies across the field. My basic problem was that I didn't understand the difference between "Geodetic" and "Geocentric" coordinates. I had originally assumed that the Longitude/Latitude coordinates were absolute and weren't affected by the Datums and the shape of the earth because they could be measured using stars and a clock. I now realize that this only applies to "Geocentric" coordinates. What we are calculating are "Geodetic" coordinates, which are affected by the shape of the earth. When the Compass Geo-calculator converts UTM to Longitude and Latitude, it does so for the specified Datum. In other words, if you convert a UTM coordinate with ED1950, the Longitude Latitude will also be ED1950. To use the data with Google Earth, which uses WGS84, a second step has to be taken to convert the Long/Lat from ED1950 to WGS84. The Compass Geo-calculator will do the conversion; it just requires the second step. You actually touched on it when you asked this question: (NB: A question: what is the "Enable Datum Conversion" checkbox on the Geocalculator for? ) When you convert UTM to Long/Lat and vice versa, the conversion assumes that both the input and output coordinates will be in the specified datum. If you enable the "Enable Datum Conversion" option and then change the datum, the program will convert the currently displayed coordinates from the old datum to the new datum. Both Long/Lat and UTM are converted at the same time. Now, back to your coordinates: If I go to the online converter you suggested (http://www.gps2cad.com/coordtrans/coordconvert.aspx) and convert your coordinates (X = 684243 m and Y = 4757321 m), I get the following values for ED1950 and WGS84 output: ED1950 -0.7417� 42.9455� WGS84 -0.7429� 42.9444� If I do the same thing in Compass, I get the following values: ED1950 -0.7417235438 42.9454850016 WGS84 -0.7429379758 42.9443933002 The difference is that I have to do the Datum conversion as a second step, by enabling the "Enable Datum Conversion" option and then switching to WGS84. (Your online converter does both steps at once, which confused me, because every other converter I had seen didn't change the output Datum. In fact, they all just allow you to select one Datum.) So the problem with the KML converter was that it didn't do the second step. As a result of all this, I have added the Datum Conversion to the KML export feature. To test the conversion, I looked at station AN6 in your data. Your MAK files show the following UTM coordinates for AN6: AN6 = 684254.4 4757405.4 (I was surprised that I couldn't find the coordinates that you sent in your email in the MAK file.) Converting these values in Compass to Long/Lat gives the following values: ED1950 = -0.7415561445 42.9462416677 WGS84 = -0.7427701786 42.9451503535 Those values agree with the online calculator: -0.7428� 42.9452� Looking in Google Earth, I see that AN6 is located at: AN6 = -0.742757 42.945148 That appears to be within a few meters of where it should be. I have posted a new version on the internet. Check it out let me know what you think. Also, thank you very much for the feedback. It really allows me to refine issues like this and improve the performance of Compass. Larry ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links
Messsage #: 140
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 22:50:25 -0600 From: "Larry Fish" Subject: Windows dpi Hi Everybody, Several people have mentioned problems with the position of buttons and other objects on the Compass screens. At first, I couldn't find any of the problems. All my screens looked just fine. I finally tracked the problems down to the "Windows-DPI-settings." Windows normally comes set to 96 dot per inch (dpi), but you can also set it to 120 or other custom values. I tested Compass at 120 dpi and suddenly saw several places in Compass where there were problems. I have modified all the Compass programs to do a better job handling other DPI values. There is a new version of Compass on the internet. If any of you see other problems with the screen layout, let me know. I went through all the programs looking for problems, but it is possible I missed something. I want to thank everybody for the helpful feedback on Compass. It really helps me find and solve problem that I would otherwise miss. Larry
Messsage #: 141
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 21:56:44 +0200 From: "Paul De Bie" Subject: RE: [compass-users] Windows dpi Hi Larry, - The Viewer: Find Survey/Station Dialog window: the checkbox "Leave Highlights on" does not move when resizing the dialog - The Viewer: Complex plotting, Color Surveys: it would sure help a lot if the dialog would be resizeable, because the grid (browser) in which to select the surveys, is really very small when you have a cave with say 100 surveys or more. Also I'm missing badly an easy way to select several surveys at once (standard Windows Shift-click and Ctrl-Click or Ctrl-A would be great) The Project manager: - Edit File Node, Linked Stations: also a very small quite unworkable grid (I have projects with 50 fixed stations or so). Would like to see this resizeable too. That's it! regards Paul De Bie http://www.scavalon.be http://scavalon.blogspot.com http://pollekepik.blogspot.com -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Larry Fish If any of you see other problems with the screen layout, let me know. I went through all the programs looking for problems, but it is possible I missed something.
Messsage #: 142
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 02:38:03 -0600 From: "Larry Fish" Subject: RE: [compass-users] Windows dpi Paul, Thanks for all the suggestions. I was aware of most of them but they just hadn't hit the top of my list. I was able to do almost everything you wanted. All the dialogs expand and the grids expand with them so more data is visible. In the Complex dialog, I allowed the "Extents" plot windows to expand with the dialog box, which should make it easier to see and set the limits. Also, the columns in the "Edit File Node" dialog can be adjusted to make the data easier to see. I cleaned up the Shift-feature in the two grids in the Complex dialog, so it works better and is not so touchy. I wasn't able to add the Control and Control-A options you wanted. The underlying control does not support selecting individual rows. It will support selecting one range of rows. In other words, you cannot select every other row. This makes the Control-features impossible to do. In order to allow for individual rows to be selected, I would need to switch to a different control. Because, I am doing a lot of "Custom" drawing in the cells, it would take quite a bit of work to get it done, and I don't' have time right now to do that. It will have to wait until I have more time. There is a new version on the internet. Let me know what you think. Larry _____ From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Paul De Bie Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2008 1:57 PM Subject: RE: [compass-users] Windows dpi Hi Larry, - The Viewer: Find Survey/Station Dialog window: the checkbox "Leave Highlights on" does not move when resizing the dialog - The Viewer: Complex plotting, Color Surveys: it would sure help a lot if the dialog would be resizeable, because the grid (browser) in which to select the surveys, is really very small when you have a cave with say 100 surveys or more. Also I'm missing badly an easy way to select several surveys at once (standard Windows Shift-click and Ctrl-Click or Ctrl-A would be great) The Project manager: - Edit File Node, Linked Stations: also a very small quite unworkable grid (I have projects with 50 fixed stations or so). Would like to see this resizeable too. That's it! regards Paul De Bie http://www.scavalon .be http://scavalon. blogspot.com http://pollekepik. blogspot.com -----Original Message----- From: compass-users@ yahoogroups.com [mailto:compass-users@ yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Larry Fish If any of you see other problems with the screen layout, let me know. I went through all the programs looking for problems, but it is possible I missed something. v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }
Messsage #: 143
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 19:28:05 +0200 From: "Paul De Bie" Subject: RE: [compass-users] Windows dpi Hi Larry, as always, great job! No problem, the shift-click already helps a lot. Another question: the help file is not clear about the maximum length of a survey name. At one place it says 12 characters. At another place it says 8 (in the Technical description of the DAT layout). However I can perfectly enter a surveyname that is 16 (or more) chars long. Compass will save the file, compile it and does not seem to truncate the extra characters. Can you tell me what is the real maximum lenght? It is important for me to know because I'm writing a Toporobot to Compass converter. Also, in the Editor: when entering a survey name with a space in it, Compass will accept this and save the file. However, if you reopen the file, the surveyname will be truncated. Maybe you could build in a warning? regards Paul De Bie http://www.scavalon.be http://scavalon.blogspot.com http://pollekepik.blogspot.com _____ From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Larry Fish Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2008 10:38 AM Subject: RE: [compass-users] Windows dpi Paul, Thanks for all the suggestions. I was aware of most of them but they just hadn't hit the top of my list. I was able to do almost everything you wanted. All the dialogs expand and the grids expand with them so more data is visible. In the Complex dialog, I allowed the "Extents" plot windows to expand with the dialog box, which should make it easier to see and set the limits. Also, the columns in the "Edit File Node" dialog can be adjusted to make the data easier to see. I cleaned up the Shift-feature in the two grids in the Complex dialog, so it works better and is not so touchy. I wasn't able to add the Control and Control-A options you wanted. The underlying control does not support selecting individual rows. It will support selecting one range of rows. In other words, you cannot select every other row. This makes the Control-features impossible to do. In order to allow for individual rows to be selected, I would need to switch to a different control. Because, I am doing a lot of "Custom" drawing in the cells, it would take quite a bit of work to get it done, and I don't' have time right now to do that. It will have to wait until I have more time. There is a new version on the internet. Let me know what you think. 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mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto } DIV.ct1 { FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0in; COLOR: #ff7900; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman"; TEXT-ALIGN: right; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto } P.cat1 { FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman"; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto } LI.cat1 { FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman"; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto } DIV.cat1 { FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman"; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto } P.ad6 { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman"; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto } LI.ad6 { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman"; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto } DIV.ad6 { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman"; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto } SPAN.EmailStyle38 { COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-style-type: personal-reply } DIV.Section1 { page: Section1 } Hi Larry, as always, great job! No problem, the shift-click already helps a lot. Another question: the help file is not clear about the maximum length of a survey name. At one place it says 12 characters. At another place it says 8 (in the Technical description of the DAT layout). However I can perfectly enter a surveyname that is 16 (or more) chars long. Compass will save the file, compile it and does not seem to truncate the extra characters. Can you tell me what is the real maximum lenght? It is important for me to know because I'm writing a Toporobot to Compass converter. Also, in the Editor: when entering a survey name with a space in it, Compass will accept this and save the file. However, if you reopen the file, the surveyname will be truncated. Maybe you could build in a warning? regards Paul De Biehttp://www.scavalon.behttp://scavalon.blogspot.comhttp://pollekepik.blogspot.com From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Larry FishSent: Sunday, September 07, 2008 10:38 AMTo: [email protected]: RE: [compass-users] Windows dpi Paul, Thanks for all the suggestions. I was aware of most of them but they just hadn’t hit the top of my list. I was able to do almost everything you wanted. All the dialogs expand and the grids expand with them so more data is visible. In the Complex dialog, I allowed the “Extents” plot windows to expand with the dialog box, which should make it easier to see and set the limits. Also, the columns in the “Edit File Node” dialog can be adjusted to make the data easier to see. I cleaned up the Shift-feature in the two grids in the Complex dialog, so it works better and is not so touchy. I wasn’t able to add the Control and Control-A options you wanted. The underlying control does not support selecting individual rows. It will support selecting one range of rows. In other words, you cannot select every other row. This makes the Control-features impossible to do. In order to allow for individual rows to be selected, I would need to switch to a different control. Because, I am doing a lot of “Custom” drawing in the cells, it would take quite a bit of work to get it done, and I don’t’ have time right now to do that. It will have to wait until I have more time. There is a new version on the internet. Let me know what you think. Larry
Messsage #: 144
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 14:48:48 -0600 From: "Larry Fish" Subject: RE: [compass-users] Windows dpi Paul, Another question: the help file is not clear about the maximum length of a survey name. At one place it says 12 characters. At another place it says 8 (in the Technical description of the DAT layout). The specified maximum is 12 characters. This used to be hard and fast because all the string variables were set to be exactly this size and so the names were automatically truncated to that length. However, many of the string variables have been converted to dynamic variables whose size can expand at will. The result is that in some places you can get away with using more characters, but I wouldn't count on it. There will still be places where the 12-character limit will apply and the name will be truncated. Also, in the Editor: when entering a survey name with a space in it, Compass will accept this and save the file. However, if you reopen the file, the surveyname will be truncated. Maybe you could build in a warning? I have added a warning and the spaces are now removed immediately so you can see what it looks like. The testing only occurs when then the user moves away from the grid cell or does something else that indicates that he/she has finished entering a name. For example, the message will be displayed when you go to save the file. There is a new version on the Internet. Larry
Messsage #: 145
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 20:52:13 +0200 From: "Paul De Bie" Subject: Topo converter v2.0 is out Dear all, I would like to present version 2 of my survey converter. It is the first time that it is available in English language. You can download it here (costs nothing): http://www.scavalon.be/avalonuk/software/convert.htm Please read the manual before using the tool, otherwise you might be disappointed... converting survey files from one format into another is something that needs some explanation and preparation. And remember input = output. You put a bad survey in, you'll get a bad survey out. It is based around a special but simple plain text format that I have been using for many years now, to manage surveys of quite big and complex cave systems. I called it the "Avalon Text Format". You are not obliged to use this format (though I recommend it; see the manual for my arguments) but the converter will use it as an intermediate format anyhow. E,g. to go from Visual Topo "TRO" files to Compass "DAT" files you first do a TRO-TXT conversion, then TXT-DAT. New in this version is the possibility to read Toporobot TAB files. It is one of the few converters that can handle such files, and possibly the first "bridge" to go from Toporobot to Compass. It might open new worlds for some people who have such files. I had to work with some Toporobot files I received from friends of mine. The file format was poorly documented which meant some guessing and trial-and-error work. I hope I got everything covered...but I have to admit that I'm not even sure if it will convert everything. Has the fileformat changed recently? Latest Toporobot version is 9.1.7 and I don't even know if the files I've got are version 8 or 9. Well give me some feedback, if it doesn't work! Example given: I just found out about "Topofil" lengths, I haven't covered this yet so it won't work. What conversions are supported now: Compass DAT - Avalon TXT Toporobot TAB - Avalon TXT Visual Topo TRO - Avalon TXT Avalon TXT - Compass DAT Compass DAT - Onstation CDI (Old stuff, I know, but still fun to play with) Once you have your data in Compass DAT, you can easily go to other formats because a lot of other cave surveying programs can read/import native DAT files. If you come across bugs or errors, please let me know. I'm leaving on a 10 day caving expedition tomorrow, so I won't be able to follow up rapidly on whatever you might suggest or find. Happy surveying. Paul De Bie http://www.scavalon.be http://scavalon.blogspot.com http://pollekepik.blogspot.com
Messsage #: 146
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 22:48:14 -0000 From: "hkalnitz" Subject: Geo Coordinates for .plt file Folks I have an old plt file sent to me many years ago by someone who has subsequently lost the .dat file. Originally I thought 'great, all I need is the .plt to generate a shapefile'. Except, as far as I can tell the only way to give it coordinates is in the edit file node option of the program manager with the .mak file I have looked through the .plt fles to see if I can insert the coordinates, but I can't seem to find them in there. Is there an easy way to assign coordinates to a .plt so I can make a shape file? Howard Kalnitz
Messsage #: 147
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 19:46:30 -0600 From: "Larry Fish" Subject: RE: [compass-users] Geo Coordinates for .plt file Howard, Thanks for your question I have looked through the .plt fles to see if I can insert the coordinates, but I can't seem to find them in there. Is there an easy way to assign coordinates to a .plt so I can make a shape file? Unfortunately, the coordinates are not in a separate section of the PLT file. They are added to the coordinates in the file. For example, here is a line from a Geo-Referenced copy of the Fulford data: D 14345899.43 1173614.32 9989.79 SA2 P 8.0 0.0 2.1 2.7 I 21.8 The first three numerical values are north, east and vertical. As you can see, they are very large numbers which represent the UTM coordinates in feet. In other words, they are the distance to the equator, the prime meridian and the sea level. In order to do this with your file, you would need to add the coordinates to the North, East and Vertical for every station in the file. If the cave is very large it would be very tedious. Another option is to have ArcView or whatever ESRI program you are using do it. I'm not an expert on ESRI programs, but I think I have read that there is a way to Geo-Reference objects that have been loaded into one of their programs. I don't know how to do it myself, but if you read through the ESRI help files I'm sure there is something. Larry _____ From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of hkalnitz Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2008 4:48 PM Subject: [compass-users] Geo Coordinates for .plt file Folks I have an old plt file sent to me many years ago by someone who has subsequently lost the .dat file. Originally I thought 'great, all I need is the .plt to generate a shapefile'. Except, as far as I can tell the only way to give it coordinates is in the edit file node option of the program manager with the .mak file I have looked through the .plt fles to see if I can insert the coordinates, but I can't seem to find them in there. Is there an easy way to assign coordinates to a .plt so I can make a shape file? Howard Kalnitz v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
Messsage #: 148
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 13:49:00 +0100 From: "Paul De Bie" Subject: RE: [compass-users] Geo Coordinates for .plt file another way to do this: - read in the PLT file in Visual Topo (French surveying program that supports PLT files (but not DAT files!) Google for it, it is a free program - Save as Visual Topo (TRO) - convert the Visual Topo file to Compass using my convertor: http://www.scavalon.be/avalonuk/software/convert.htm THis will not bring you back the original coordinates, but at least you will have the DAT file back Paul De Bie http://www.scavalon.be http://scavalon.blogspot.com http://pollekepik.blogspot.com -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of hkalnitz Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2008 11:48 PM To: [email protected] Subject: [compass-users] Geo Coordinates for .plt file Folks I have an old plt file sent to me many years ago by someone who has subsequently lost the .dat file. Originally I thought 'great, all I need is the .plt to generate a shapefile'. Except, as far as I can tell the only way to give it coordinates is in the edit file node option of the program manager with the .mak file I have looked through the .plt fles to see if I can insert the coordinates, but I can't seem to find them in there. Is there an easy way to assign coordinates to a .plt so I can make a shape file? Howard Kalnitz ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links
Messsage #: 149
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 14:06:22 -0000 From: "ericmweaver2003" Subject: Re: Geo Coordinates for .plt file Howard, It is relatively uncomplicated to geo-reference a shapefile in ArcGIS. You just need to go to the georeferencing toolbar and then establish control points. Unfortunately, the only control point you have is the entrance. I believe that three control points is really the recommended number. Not completely certain that this really matters with vectors as much as it does with rasters.If I have time I will test this out to see the difference. If Paul's program does get your data back, it obviously is the best option. Paul, I found VisualTopo in several different languages, but not in English(although the site indicates there is an English version, I think).Do you have a direct link that I could access it with?
Messsage #: 150
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 16:10:58 +0100 From: "Paul De Bie" Subject: RE: [compass-users] Re: Geo Coordinates for .plt file Hi, http://vtopo.free.fr/vtopo502.exe Once installed, you can go into Preferences, Langue and change the language in English. I just saw that the author relased a new version. I haven't looked at the changes in the dataformat yet, so I can't guarentee for 100% that my converter will work OK. But I just tried the exercise (from a PLT tot TRO, then converting to compass) and it works. good luck Paul De Bie http://www.scavalon.be http://scavalon.blogspot.com http://pollekepik.blogspot.com -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of ericmweaver2003 Sent: Friday, October 31, 2008 3:06 PM To: [email protected] Subject: [compass-users] Re: Geo Coordinates for .plt file Howard, It is relatively uncomplicated to geo-reference a shapefile in ArcGIS. You just need to go to the georeferencing toolbar and then establish control points. Unfortunately, the only control point you have is the entrance. I believe that three control points is really the recommended number. Not completely certain that this really matters with vectors as much as it does with rasters.If I have time I will test this out to see the difference. If Paul's program does get your data back, it obviously is the best option. Paul, I found VisualTopo in several different languages, but not in English(although the site indicates there is an English version, I think).Do you have a direct link that I could access it with? ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links
Messsage #: 151
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 18:50:14 +0100 From: "Paul De Bie" Subject: RE: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features. _____ From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Larry Fish Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 6:36 AM Subject: RE: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features. 3. I don't really have an idea about what is causing the problem where your settings are lost when you install a new version. The default information is saved in these three files: comp32.ini, cavevw32.ini and CaveEd32.ini. They are normally stored in the Windows directory on your computer. They don't get overwritten when a new copy of Compass is installed, so I'm not sure how the setting could be changed. (You can make copies of these files and restore them if the settings unexpectedly change.) It is possible that you have more than one copy of the files. Windows will always take a local copy over the one that is in the Windows directory. The problem could occur if you have installed Compass in a non-standard directory and the "INI" files are in that directory. If you installed a new version in the Standard Directory, it would supersede the old version and the "INI" files would switch to the Windows directory and you'd lose all your old settings. That is the only explanation that I can find for the problem. Let me know what you think. Larry Hi Larry, remember this issue? I now saw that there are several versions of the INI files on my PC. I've checked this on 2 other Windows XP computers with Compass and they have exactly the same problem. So there is one set of (3) INI files in c:\windows, but there is also a set of 3 in the userprofile: c:\documents and settings\paul\application data\compass Maybe you could check this out because it is definitely not OK... 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MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman"; TEXT-ALIGN: right; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto } DIV.ct1 { FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0in; COLOR: #ff7900; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman"; TEXT-ALIGN: right; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto } P.cat1 { FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman"; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto } LI.cat1 { FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman"; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto } DIV.cat1 { FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman"; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto } P.ad6 { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman"; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto } LI.ad6 { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman"; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto } DIV.ad6 { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman"; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto } SPAN.EmailStyle39 { COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-style-type: personal-reply } DIV.Section1 { page: Section1 } From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Larry FishSent: Monday, July 21, 2008 6:36 AMTo: [email protected]: RE: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features. 3. I don't really have an idea about what is causing the problem where your settings are lost when you install a new version. The default information is saved in these three files: comp32.ini, cavevw32.ini and CaveEd32.ini. They are normally stored in the Windows directory on your computer. They don't get overwritten when a new copy of Compass is installed, so I'm not sure how the setting could be changed. (You can make copies of these files and restore them if the settings unexpectedly change.) It is possible that you have more than one copy of the files. Windows will always take a local copy over the one that is in the Windows directory. The problem could occur if you have installed Compass in a non-standard directory and the "INI" files are in that directory. If you installed a new version in the Standard Directory, it would supersede the old version and the "INI" files would switch to the Windows directory and you’d lose all your old settings. That is the only explanation that I can find for the problem. Let me know what you think. Larry Hi Larry, remember this issue? I now saw that there are several versions of the INI files on my PC. I've checked this on 2 other Windows XP computers with Compass and they have exactly the same problem. So there is one set of (3) INI files in c:\windows, but there is also a set of 3 in the userprofile: c:\documents and settings\paul\application data\compass Maybe you could check this out because it is definitely not OK... TIA http://pollekepik.blogspot.com
Messsage #: 152
Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2008 17:10:36 -0000 From: "hkalnitz" Subject: Re: Geo Coordinates for .plt file Paul Thanks, this did exactly what I needed, and allowed me to get the file back into .DAT format The hardest part was understanding the French installer! Howard wrote: Hi, http://vtopo.free.fr/vtopo502.exe Once installed, you can go into Preferences, Langue and change the language in English. I just saw that the author relased a new version. I haven't looked at the changes in the dataformat yet, so I can't guarentee for 100% that my converter will work OK. But I just tried the exercise (from a PLT tot TRO, then converting to compass) and it works. good luck Paul De Bie http://www.scavalon.be http://scavalon.blogspot.com http://pollekepik.blogspot.com -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of ericmweaver2003 Sent: Friday, October 31, 2008 3:06 PM To: [email protected] Subject: [compass-users] Re: Geo Coordinates for .plt file Howard, It is relatively uncomplicated to geo-reference a shapefile in ArcGIS. You just need to go to the georeferencing toolbar and then establish control points. Unfortunately, the only control point you have is the entrance. I believe that three control points is really the recommended number. Not completely certain that this really matters with vectors as much as it does with rasters.If I have time I will test this out to see the difference. If Paul's program does get your data back, it obviously is the best option. Paul, I found VisualTopo in several different languages, but not in English(although the site indicates there is an English version, I think).Do you have a direct link that I could access it with? ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links
Messsage #: 153
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 14:26:18 -0700 From: "Larry Fish" Subject: RE: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features. Paul, Thanks for your email. I spent quite a bit of time looking at your problem and I have some ideas, but I'm not completely sure what is going on. It is also pretty complicated. Here are some of the things I figured out: 1. WHERE TO PUT INI FILES. When Vista came out, I discovered a problem with where I had been putting the INI files. In Win98 you are supposed to put them in the "Windows" directory. Under NT/XP/Vista, you can put them in the "Windows" directory if you have administrative privileges. Up to last year, I just assumed that Compass users would have administrative privileges, so I just put them into the "Windows" directory. About a year ago, one of the Compass users complained that he couldn't load Compass on a computer on which he didn't have Administrative Privileges. He also pointed out that Windows Vista was pickier and I might have problems with it. As a result, I decided to move the INI files to the proper location which is something like: C:\Documents and Settings\\Application Data\compass. 2. WIN98 VS. NT/XP/VISTA. There was only one problem with this scheme: Windows 98 did not normally have a "Documents and Settings.." directory. To solve this problem, each Compass program checks whether the computer is running Win98 or NT/XP/Vista. If you are running Win98, it looks for the INI files "Windows" directory. If you are running NT/XP/Vista, it looks in "C:\Documents and Settings\\Application Data\compass". 3. TWO COPIES OF THE COMPASS32.INI FILES. The only problem with using two different directories is the installation program has to find or create "Compass32.ini" and set the location of the Compass program files. Unfortunately, my Installation program is not smart enough to differentiate between Win98 and NT/XP/VISTA when it comes to modifying an INI file. (It is smart enough when it comes to other operations.) As a result, the only solution I could come up with was to use two copies of Compass32.ini; one for the Win98 directory and one for the NT/XP/VISTA directory. This is reason that there are two copies of Compass32.ini on your hard drive. (The reason the installer has to access "Compass32.ini" is that it needs to save the location of the three Compass Programs so that other programs can find them.) There shouldn't be any problem with these two copies. If you are using NT/XP/VISTA, Compass will use the one in "C:\Documents and Settings\\Application Data\compass". If you are using Win98, Compass will use the one in the "Windows" directory. Further more, when the Installation program accesses an already existing Compass32.ini, it does not modify your settings. It only updates the location of the Compass programs. That is what is so puzzling about the settings changing after you install a new version. 4. TWO COPIES OF OTHER INI FILES. I also noticed that there were two copies of other Compass INI files on my hard drive. Some the copies I found were probably old copies previous installations. Some of these files were there because I had missed some places in the Compass program were it needed to find the right directory. (This only had to do with the list of previously opened files.) These problems have been fixed and there are new versions of all the Compass programs on the internet. 5. WHY DO YOUR SETTINGS CHANGE AFTER AN NEW INSTALLATION? I'm not sure why your settings are changing when you do a new installation. If you are still running old versions of Compass, the old and new versions would be writing to different INI files. If you are dual booting your computer between Win98 and XP, Compass would write to different INI files under 98 and XP. 6. SUGGESTED ACTIONS. First, I would install the newest versions of Compass. The old version would still occasionally create and write to INI files in the wrong directory. Depending on which operating system you are using, I would delete all unused INI files from your hard drive. If you are using Win98, I would delete "Compass32.ini", "CaveVw32.ini" and "CaveEd32.ini" from the "Documents and Settings\\Applications Data\compass" directory. (Even though Win98 doesn't use this directory, the Compass Installation program may create it.) Likewise, if you are using NT/XP/Vista, I would delete the same files from the "Windows" directory. The Compass installer will still put one copy of "Compass32.ini" in the wrong directory, but, at least in theory, it won't access that file. 7. DEBUGGING. If you are still having problems where installing a new version of Compass causes your settings to be lost, it would be useful to me if you could do a little checking for me. First, I need to know which settings are getting lost. I also need to know if the settings are getting lost in the Project Manager, the Editor or the Viewer. Second, go to the appropriate directory and check the INI files to see if the settings in the files themselves have changed. You can edit the INI files by double clicking the file. This should allow them to open the file in "Notepad." I assume that things like Meters is changing to "Feet" when you do an install, so you need to specifically check those settings. As an example, here are the Meter-Setting flags in each of the INI files: Compass32.ini: [General] DefaultMeters=1 CaveVw32.ini [Units] I��yI�a
Messsage #: 154
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 10:19:03 +0100 From: "Paul De Bie" Subject: RE: [compass-users] Re: Geo Coordinates for .plt file thats good News Howard. Glad it worked! Paul De Bie http://www.scavalon.be http://scavalon.blogspot.com http://pollekepik.blogspot.com -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of hkalnitz Sent: Friday, November 07, 2008 6:11 PM To: [email protected] Subject: [compass-users] Re: Geo Coordinates for .plt file Paul Thanks, this did exactly what I needed, and allowed me to get the file back into .DAT format The hardest part was understanding the French installer! Howard --- In [email protected], "Paul De Bie" wrote: Hi, http://vtopo.free.fr/vtopo502.exe Once installed, you can go into Preferences, Langue and change the language in English. I just saw that the author relased a new version. I haven't looked at the changes in the dataformat yet, so I can't guarentee for 100% that my converter will work OK. But I just tried the exercise (from a PLT tot TRO, then converting to compass) and it works. good luck Paul De Bie http://www.scavalon.be http://scavalon.blogspot.com http://pollekepik.blogspot.com -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of ericmweaver2003 Sent: Friday, October 31, 2008 3:06 PM To: [email protected] Subject: [compass-users] Re: Geo Coordinates for .plt file Howard, It is relatively uncomplicated to geo-reference a shapefile in ArcGIS. You just need to go to the georeferencing toolbar and then establish control points. Unfortunately, the only control point you have is the entrance. I believe that three control points is really the recommended number. Not completely certain that this really matters with vectors as much as it does with rasters.If I have time I will test this out to see the difference. If Paul's program does get your data back, it obviously is the best option. Paul, I found VisualTopo in several different languages, but not in English(although the site indicates there is an English version, I think).Do you have a direct link that I could access it with? ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links
Messsage #: 155
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 10:38:02 +0100 From: "Paul De Bie" Subject: RE: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features. HI Larry, I will do some checking for you one of these days. but just some quick remarks: - maybe it would be better to switch over to the registry instead of INI files. - but personally I like INI files more because it is easier to migrate from one PC to another - in my programs, I put them in the installation folder itself - I have had exactly the same problem as you faced, with my SpeleoBase program. At first I put the INI in the Windows dir, afterwards I decided it would be better in the program's dir. The installer could not handle this, so I coded it in my program: when SpeleoBase starts up, it looks if it still finds a speleobase.INI in the Windows dir. If yes, then it doesn't belong there. I then check to see if I find one in the speleobase program dir. If yes, we can get rid of the old leftover in windows (delete or rename). If no, we will MOVE the speleobase.ini from c:\windows to the program dir. You could build in comparable logic in Compass. Maybe the problems with Compass came because of the fact that you didnt MOVE the existing INI files. You created new ones and ended up with doubles. - I'm not using Vista (yet), but I believe that you run into problems if you install stuff under c:\program files that needs to be changed/updated afterwards. The logic being that programs don't change and aren't allowed to change. So if you have a program that has also datafiles that are subject to be updated/changed, they should be put in the users specific folder C:\Documents and Settings\\Application Data\. This is of course a big pain in the ... because many older programs dont have that separation between data and programs. The workaround is to install them in the root itself like c:\Wcompass. Maybe the users that experienced problems with Compass under Vista, were installing under Program Files? - FYI: Im using XP, and I always use the lates versions of Compass. cheers Paul De Bie http://www.scavalon.be http://scavalon.blogspot.com http://pollekepik.blogspot.com _____ From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Larry Fish Sent: Friday, November 07, 2008 10:26 PM Subject: RE: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features. Paul, Thanks for your email. I spent quite a bit of time looking at your problem and I have some ideas, but I'm not completely sure what is going on. It is also pretty complicated. Here are some of the things I figured out: 1 v\:* { BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML) } o\:* { BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML) } w\:* { BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML) } .shape { BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML) } st1\:* { BEHAVIOR: url(#default#ieooui) } @font-face { font-family: Wingdings; } @font-face { font-family: Tahoma; } @page Section1 {size: 8.5in 11.0in; margin: 1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in; } #YGRP-MLMSG { FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: x-small; LINE-HEIGHT: normal; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-VARIANT: normal } #YGRP-MLMSG TABLE { } #YGRP-MLMSG PRE { FONT-SIZE: 100% } CODE { FONT-SIZE: 100% } #ygrp-mlmsg * { LINE-HEIGHT: 1.22em } #YGRP-ACTBAR .LEFT { FLOAT: left } #YGRP-VITAL UL LI .CT { FLOAT: right } #ygrp-vital A:hover { TEXT-DECORATION: underline } #ygrp-sponsor .ad A:hover { TEXT-DECORATION: underline } o { FONT-SIZE: 0px } P.MsoNormal { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman" } LI.MsoNormal { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman" } DIV.MsoNormal { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; 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MARGIN-LEFT: 0in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman"; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto } DIV.ad6 { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman"; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto } SPAN.EmailStyle38 { COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-style-type: personal-reply } DIV.Section1 { page: Section1 } OL { MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0in } UL { MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0in } HI Larry, I will do some checking for you one of these days. but just some quick remarks: - maybe it would be better to switch over to the registry instead of INI files. - but personally I like INI files more because it is easier to migrate from one PC to another - in my programs, I put them in the installation folder itself - I have had exactly the same problem as you faced, with my SpeleoBase program. At first I put the INI in the Windows dir, afterwards I decided it would be better in the program's dir. The installer could not handle this, so I coded it in my program: when SpeleoBase starts up, it looks if it still finds a speleobase.INI in the Windows dir. If yes, then it doesn't belong there. I then check to see if I find one in the speleobase program dir. If yes, we can get rid of the old leftover in windows (delete or rename). If no, we will MOVE the speleobase.ini from c:\windows to the program dir. You could build in comparable logic in Compass. Maybe the problems with Compass came because of the fact that you didnt MOVE the existing INI files. You created new ones and ended up with doubles. - I'm not using Vista (yet), but I believe that you run into problems if you install stuff under c:\program files that needs to be changed/updated afterwards. The logic being that programs don't change and aren't allowed to change. So if you have a program that has also datafiles that are subject to be updated/changed, they should be put in the users specific folder C:\Documents and Settings\<user>\Application Data\. This is of course a big pain in the ... because many older programs dont have that separation between data and programs. The workaround is to install them in the root itself like c:\Wcompass. Maybe the users that experienced problems with Compass under Vista, were installing under Program Files? - FYI: Im using XP, and I always use the lates versions of Compass. cheers Paul De Biehttp://www.scavalon.behttp://scavalon.blogspot.comhttp://pollekepik.blogspot.com From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Larry FishSent: Friday, November 07, 2008 10:26 PMTo: [email protected]: RE: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features. Paul, Thanks for your email. I spent quite a bit of time looking at your problem and I have some ideas, but I'm not completely sure what is going on. It is also pretty complicated. Here are some of the things I figured out: 1
Messsage #: 156
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 18:31:30 +0100 From: "Paul De Bie" Subject: INI-files Hi Larry, I've did some tests regarding the INI-files. I've tried to reproduce the issue I had a couple of months ago when I lost my Compass settings. So I started with this situation (Windows XP): - The 3 INI files (CaveEd32.INI, CaveVw32.INI, Comp32.INI) are present in c:\windows - Since this situation was an older Compass install, there where no copies of these INI files present in the c:\documents and settings\Paul\Application Data\Compass folder. I've checked this. OK I now install the most recent Compass version. Result: - In c:\Windows two INI files have not been touched. They are still there and have not changed: CaveEd32.INI, CaveVw32.INI - Yet in c:\Windows the Comp32.INI file has changed: Paths settings have been reset to default Compass, we are back in feet instead of metres etc. Yet, the File History Paths are still there, which means this is not a fresh copy of Comp32.INI: it is the old one that has been updated. - And now we also do have Comp32.INI present in the c:\documents and settings\Paul\Application Data\Compass folder. But is nearly empty; it contains only the [Paths] section. There is no sign of the other two INI files. OK I now launch Project Manager for the first time, change settings and do "Save User Settings". I then compile a cave and open the viewer, in which I also change some settings and do a "Save User Preferences". Result: - The INI files in c:\Windows have not been touched and seem to have become obsolete. - The Comp32.INI file in c:\documents and settings\Paul\Application Data\Compass reflects the changes, and there is now also a Cavevw32.INI which reflects the changes. My conclusion: it goes wrong when you upgrade from an older Compass version (pr�-Vista) that did not use c:\documents and settings\Paul\Application Data\Compass to store its INI files, to the new Compass version. When you do that, your old settings in c:\Windows are not migrated and lost. Which means that my recommendations that I've given earlier are valid. I would simply code this into my program, and on the very first run of Compass, move the INI-files myself from c:\Windows to the Application Data folder. Or just read them and write their keys into the new INI files in the Application Data folder. But, and this is important: the obsolete files in c:\Windows should be removed! Even if they are no longer used, leaving them would mean that you create a confusing situation that will sooner or later take its revenge. HTH Paul De Bie http://www.scavalon.be http://scavalon.blogspot.com http://pollekepik.blogspot.com _____ From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Paul De Bie Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2008 10:38 AM Subject: RE: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features. HI Larry, I will do some checking for you one of these days. but just some quick remarks: - maybe it would be better to switch over to the registry instead of INI files. - but personally I like INI files more because it is easier to migrate from one PC to another - in my programs, I put them in the installation folder itself - I have had exactly the same problem as you faced, with my SpeleoBase program. At first I put the INI in the Windows dir, afterwards I decided it would be better in the program's dir. The installer could not handle this, so I coded it in my program: when SpeleoBase starts up, it looks if it still finds a speleobase.INI in the Windows dir. If yes, then it doesn't belong there. I then check to see if I find one in the speleobase program dir. If yes, we can get rid of the old leftover in windows (delete or rename). If no, we will MOVE the speleobase.ini from c:\windows to the program dir. You could build in comparable logic in Compass. Maybe the problems with Compass came because of the fact that you didnt MOVE the existing INI files. You created new ones and ended up with doubles. - I'm not using Vista (yet), but I believe that you run into problems if you install stuff under c:\program files that needs to be changed/updated afterwards. The logic being that programs don't change and aren't allowed to change. So if you have a program that has also datafiles that are subject to be updated/changed, they should be put in the users specific folder C:\Documents and Settings\\Application Data\. This is of course a big pain in the ... because many older programs dont have that separation between data and programs. The workaround is to install them in the root itself like c:\Wcompass. Maybe the users that experienced problems with Compass under Vista, were installing under Program Files? - FYI: Im using XP, and I always use the lates versions of Compass. cheers Paul De Bie http://www.scavalon.be http://scavalon.blogspot.com http://pollekepik.blogspot.com _____ From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Larry Fish Sent: Friday, November 07, 2008 10:26 PM Subject: RE: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features. Paul, Thanks for your email. I spent quite a bit of time looking at your problem and I have some ideas, but I'm not completely sure what is going on. It is also pretty complicated. Here are some of the things I figured out: 1 v\:* { BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML) } o\:* { BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML) } w\:* { BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML) } .shape { BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML) } st1\:* { BEHAVIOR: url(#default#ieooui) } @font-face { font-family: Wingdings; } @font-face { font-family: Tahoma; } @page Section1 {size: 8.5in 11.0in; margin: 1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in; } #YGRP-MLMSG { FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: x-small; LINE-HEIGHT: normal; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-VARIANT: normal } #YGRP-MLMSG TABLE { } #YGRP-MLMSG PRE { FONT-SIZE: 100% } CODE { FONT-SIZE: 100% } #ygrp-mlmsg * { LINE-HEIGHT: 1.22em } #YGRP-ACTBAR .LEFT { FLOAT: left } #YGRP-VITAL UL LI .CT { FLOAT: right } #ygrp-vital A:hover { TEXT-DECORATION: underline } #ygrp-sponsor .ad A:hover { TEXT-DECORATION: underline } o { FONT-SIZE: 0px } P.MsoNormal { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman" } LI.MsoNormal { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman" } DIV.MsoNormal { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; 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MARGIN-LEFT: 0in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman"; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto } DIV.ad6 { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman"; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto } SPAN.EmailStyle38 { COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-style-type: personal-reply } DIV.Section1 { page: Section1 } OL { MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0in } UL { MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0in } Hi Larry, I've did some tests regarding the INI-files. I've tried to reproduce the issue I had a couple of months ago when I lost my Compass settings. So I started with this situation (Windows XP): - The 3 INI files (CaveEd32.INI, CaveVw32.INI, Comp32.INI) are present in c:\windows - Since this situation was an older Compass install, there where no copies of these INI files present in the c:\documents and settings\Paul\Application Data\Compass folder. I've checked this. OK I now install the most recent Compass version. Result: - In c:\Windows two INI files have not been touched. They are still there and have not changed: CaveEd32.INI, CaveVw32.INI - Yet in c:\Windows the Comp32.INI file has changed: Paths settings have been reset to default Compass, we are back in feet instead of metres etc. Yet, the File History Paths are still there, which means this is not a fresh copy of Comp32.INI: it is the old one that has been updated. - And now we also do have Comp32.INI present in the c:\documents and settings\Paul\Application Data\Compass folder. But is nearly empty; it contains only the [Paths] section. There is no sign of the other two INI files. OK I now launch Project Manager for the first time, change settings and do "Save User Settings". I then compile a cave and open the viewer, in which I also change some settings and do a "Save User Preferences". Result: - The INI files in c:\Windows have not been touched and seem to have become obsolete. - The Comp32.INI file in c:\documents and settings\Paul\Application Data\Compass reflects the changes, and there is now also a Cavevw32.INI which reflects the changes. My conclusion: it goes wrong when you upgrade from an older Compass version (pr�-Vista) that did not use c:\documents and settings\Paul\Application Data\Compass to store its INI files, to the new Compass version. When you do that, your old settings in c:\Windows are not migrated and lost. Which means that my recommendations that I've given earlier are valid. I would simply code this into my program, and on the very first run of Compass, move the INI-files myself from c:\Windows to the Application Data folder. Or just read them and write their keys into the new INI files in the Application Data folder. But, and this is important: the obsolete files in c:\Windows should be removed! Even if they are no longer used, leaving them would mean that you create a confusing situation that will sooner or later take its revenge. HTH Paul De Biehttp://www.scavalon.behttp://scavalon.blogspot.comhttp://pollekepik.blogspot.com From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Paul De BieSent: Saturday, November 08, 2008 10:38 AMTo: [email protected]: RE: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features. HI Larry, I will do some checking for you one of these days. but just some quick remarks: - maybe it would be better to switch over to the registry instead of INI files. - but personally I like INI files more because it is easier to migrate from one PC to another - in my programs, I put them in the installation folder itself - I have had exactly the same problem as you faced, with my SpeleoBase program. At first I put the INI in the Windows dir, afterwards I decided it would be better in the program's dir. The installer could not handle this, so I coded it in my program: when SpeleoBase starts up, it looks if it still finds a speleobase.INI in the Windows dir. If yes, then it doesn't belong there. I then check to see if I find one in the speleobase program dir. If yes, we can get rid of the old leftover in windows (delete or rename). If no, we will MOVE the speleobase.ini from c:\windows to the program dir. You could build in comparable logic in Compass. Maybe the problems with Compass came because of the fact that you didnt MOVE the existing INI files. You created new ones and ended up with doubles. - I'm not using Vista (yet), but I believe that you run into problems if you install stuff under c:\program files that needs to be changed/updated afterwards. The logic being that programs don't change and aren't allowed to change. So if you have a program that has also datafiles that are subject to be updated/changed, they should be put in the users specific folder C:\Documents and Settings\<user>\Application Data\. This is of course a big pain in the ... because many older programs dont have that separation between data and programs. The workaround is to install them in the root itself like c:\Wcompass. Maybe the users that experienced problems with Compass under Vista, were installing under Program Files? - FYI: Im using XP, and I always use the lates versions of Compass. cheershttp://pollekepik.blogspot.com From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Larry FishSent: Friday, November 07, 2008 10:26 PMTo: [email protected]: RE: [compass-users] New Compass Release with Google Earth/KML features. Paul, Thanks for your email. I spent quite a bit of time looking at your problem and I have some ideas, but I'm not completely sure what is going on. It is also pretty complicated. Here are some of the things I figured out: 1
Messsage #: 157
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 20:05:57 -0500 From: "Dwight Livingston" Subject: screen scale Larry or anyone I find than my screen preview does not scale equally for width and height. This is in terms of pixel count, and in terms of the screen horizontal and vertical (not the cave's horizontal and vertical.) When I do a screen capture, I get a horizontal about 105% larger than the vertical, or about 105 pixels wide for every 100 pixels tall. Is there a way to adjust this? I would rather the scale be the same. Thanks Dwight
Messsage #: 158
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 18:33:52 -0700 From: "Larry Fish" Subject: RE: [compass-users] screen scale Hi Dwight, I'm not sure what you mean by "screen preview". Do you mean "Print Preview"? Or just the normal Viewer screen? Or something else? Larry _____ From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dwight Livingston Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 6:06 PM Subject: [compass-users] screen scale Larry or anyone I find than my screen preview does not scale equally for width and height. This is in terms of pixel count, and in terms of the screen horizontal and vertical (not the cave's horizontal and vertical.) When I do a screen capture, I get a horizontal about 105% larger than the vertical, or about 105 pixels wide for every 100 pixels tall. Is there a way to adjust this? I would rather the scale be the same. Thanks Dwight v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
Messsage #: 159
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 20:24:39 -0500 From: "Dwight Livingston" Subject: RE: [compass-users] screen scale Hi Larry I mean the normal Viewer screen. Dwight -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of Larry Fish Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 8:34 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: [compass-users] screen scale Hi Dwight, I'm not sure what you mean by "screen preview". Do you mean "Print Preview"? Or just the normal Viewer screen? Or something else? Larry From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dwight Livingston Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 6:06 PM To: Compass-Users Subject: [compass-users] screen scale Larry or anyone I find than my screen preview does not scale equally for width and height. This is in terms of pixel count, and in terms of the screen horizontal and vertical (not the cave's horizontal and vertical.) When I do a screen capture, I get a horizontal about 105% larger than the vertical, or about 105 pixels wide for every 100 pixels tall. Is there a way to adjust this? I would rather the scale be the same. Thanks Dwight Hi Larry I mean the normal Viewer screen. Dwight -----Original Message-----From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of Larry FishSent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 8:34 PMTo: [email protected]: RE: [compass-users] screen scale Hi Dwight, I'm not sure what you mean by "screen preview". Do you mean "Print Preview"? Or just the normal Viewer screen? Or something else? Larry From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dwight LivingstonSent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 6:06 PMTo: Compass-UsersSubject: [compass-users] screen scale Larry or anyoneI find than my screen preview does not scale equally for width and height.This is in terms of pixel count, and in terms of the screen horizontal andvertical (not the cave's horizontal and vertical.) When I do a screencapture, I get a horizontal about 105% larger than the vertical, or about105 pixels wide for every 100 pixels tall.Is there a way to adjust this? I would rather the scale be the same.ThanksDwight
Messsage #: 160
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 20:10:38 -0700 From: "Larry Fish" Subject: RE: [compass-users] screen scale Hi Dwight, Compass uses the Windows Graphics software to draw all cave plots. I specifically tell Windows to draw the images using a mapping mode that scales everything to thousandth's of an inch: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms532673(VS.85).aspx The advantage of this is that Windows handles all the scaling for video cards, monitors and printers. On my computers, equal length lines always display with the same number of pixels. If there is a problem, it probably has to do with your video card drivers. Let's see if we can dig a little deeper and diagnose the problem. If you have two 10-meter plot lines, one that goes north and another that goes east, the lines should appear on the screen to have exactly the same number of pixels in length. This assumes that there are no rotations of any kind. If, for example, the cave is tilted, then some lines will display with more pixels and some with less. Now, two lines may have the same number of pixels but appear to be different lengths if you hold a ruler up to your monitor. This is because the monitor's display-height and width can be adjusted. For example, if the horizontal width on the monitor is reduced, horizontal lines will appear shorter. However, even though they are shorter, they will still have the exact same number of pixels. The way I test this problem is to use an artificial cave that has six, 8-foot shots in the North, South, East, West, Up and Down directions. You can download one of my test files here: http://www.fountainware.com/download/cross2.plt If I measure any two shots at right angles to each other (such as North and East), they measure exactly the same number of pixels. Test this file on your computer and see what kind of measurements you get. If there still seems to be a problem, send me a screen capture of the image and I will check it out. If you need a screen capture program, here is a link to the one I use. There is a free trial version: http://www.PixelMetrics.com Larry _____ From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dwight Livingston Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 6:25 PM Subject: RE: [compass-users] screen scale Hi Larry I mean the normal Viewer screen. Dwight From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of Larry Fish Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 8:34 PM Subject: RE: [compass-users] screen scale Hi Dwight, I'm not sure what you mean by "screen preview". Do you mean "Print Preview"? Or just the normal Viewer screen? Or something else? Larry _____ From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dwight Livingston Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 6:06 PM Subject: [compass-users] screen scale Larry or anyone I find than my screen preview does not scale equally for width and height. This is in terms of pixel count, and in terms of the screen horizontal and vertical (not the cave's horizontal and vertical.) When I do a screen capture, I get a horizontal about 105% larger than the vertical, or about 105 pixels wide for every 100 pixels tall. Is there a way to adjust this? I would rather the scale be the same. Thanks Dwight v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
Messsage #: 161
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 08:00:00 -0600 (CST) From: Dwight Livingston Subject: Re: RE: [compass-users] screen scale Larry Your instructions follow about what I did last night to confirm this problem. I created an east-west shot and a north-south shot of equal lengths, so that they should appear to be equal lengths in plan view. I started the viewer, arranged a view of the two shots with north up, screen captured the view screen, took it to Photoshop, and got a pixel count of the lines. The east-west is longer by about 5%. I did the same process with a vertical shot of the same length, with the same results. I then tried a vertical scale factor of 1.05 percent, and that made the line lengths close, but not exactly matching. I am not using a ruler to measure things as they appear on the screen. I just tried the same test here at work, and the results are much closer to correct, but still off a bit, for example 527 pixels wide to 525 pixels tall. I have an Nvidia card here and a control panel with more options than one might find otherwise, so I played with the Flat Panel Scaling controls. I did not get anything exact, even with the "Do not scale" option. I've attached two screen captures from my left monitor, using your "cross" plot. One shows the station labels, so you might confirm what orientation I am using. The other does not have station labels, so the pixel counts are easier to measure. Thanks Dwight Nov 23, 2008 10:10:56 PM, [email protected] wrote: Hi Dwight, Compass uses the Windows Graphics software to draw all cave plots. I specifically tell Windows to draw the images using a mapping mode that scales everything to thousandth�?Ts of an inch: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms532673(VS.85).aspx The advantage of this is that Windows handles all the scaling for video cards, monitors and printers. On my computers, equal length lines always display with the same number of pixels. If there is a problem, it probably has to do with your video card drivers. Let�?Ts see if we can dig a little deeper and diagnose the problem. If you have two 10-meter plot lines, one that goes north and another that goes east, the lines should appear on the screen to have exactly the same number of pixels in length. This assumes that there are no rotations of any kind. If, for example, the cave is tilted, then some lines will display with more pixels and some with less. Now, two lines may have the same number of pixels but appear to be different lengths if you hold a ruler up to your monitor. This is because the monitor�?Ts display-height and width can be adjusted. For example, if the horizontal width on the monitor is reduced, horizontal lines will appear shorter. However, even though they are shorter, they will still have the exact same number of pixels. The way I test this problem is to use an artificial cave that has six, 8-foot shots in the North, South, East, West, Up and Down directions. You can download one of my test files here: http://www.fountainware.com/download/cross2.plt If I measure any two shots at right angles to each other (such as North and East), they measure exactly the same number of pixels. Test this file on your computer and see what kind of measurements you get. If there still seems to be a problem, send me a screen capture of the image and I will check it out. If you need a screen capture program, here is a link to the one I use. There is a free trial version: http://www.PixelMetrics.com Larry From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dwight LivingstonSent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 6:25 PMTo: [email protected]: RE: [compass-users] screen scale Hi Larry I mean the normal Viewer screen. Dwight -----Original Message-----From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of Larry FishSent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 8:34 PMTo: [email protected]: RE: [compass-users] screen scale Hi Dwight, I�?Tm not sure what you mean by �?oscreen preview�??. Do you mean �?oPrint Preview�??? Or just the normal Viewer screen? Or something else? Larry From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dwight LivingstonSent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 6:06 PMTo: Compass-UsersSubject: [compass-users] screen scale Larry or anyoneI find than my screen preview does not scale equally for width and height.This is in terms of pixel count, and in terms of the screen horizontal andvertical (not the cave's horizontal and vertical.) When I do a screencapture, I get a horizontal about 105% larger than the vertical, or about105 pixels wide for every 100 pixels tall.Is there a way to adjust this? I would rather the scale be the same.ThanksDwight
Messsage #: 162
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 16:23:12 -0700 From: "Larry Fish" Subject: RE: RE: [compass-users] screen scale Hi Dwight, I looked at the screen captures that you sent me and measured the lengths of the bars in the image. To make sure there was no distortion or scaling problems, I measured the images in MS Paint. I get 1105 vs 1100 for the full length of North/South bar to the East/West bar. This was on the image without station labels. On the image with the station labels, I get 1102 to 1098. Here are the percentage differences: 1105 x 1100 = 0.0045% 1102 x 1098 = 0.0036% These are all less than 1/2 percent difference. I suspect this small difference is due to integer rounding errors when Windows or the Video Drivers converts thousands of an inch to pixels. If the math is not done right, it is fairly easy to introduce rounding errors in the conversion process, especially when the basic numbers are integer to begin with. (All video screen commands in Windows are in integers.) Compass deals with all survey data numbers as floating point values, so there is little chance that Compass is distorting the image. Particularly since I'm not seeing the discrepancy on any of the computer I have around here. I take it from your letter that you are getting much larger errors on your other computer. The fact that you are getting different numbers from one computer to the next, seems to indicate that the problem is computer specific. That would most likely be the Video drivers or Windows itself. I then tried a vertical scale factor of 1.05 percent, and that made the line lengths close, but not exactly matching. When you adjust the "scale factor" did it actually change the number of pixels in the line? If it did, then it indicates that the software is adjusting the aspect ratio between the horizontal and vertical pixels. If that is the case, that would be one more indication that the problem is in the drivers or Windows. I have an Nvidia card here and a control panel with more options than one might find otherwise, I too have an Nvidia card that is new enough to be compatible with Windows Vista. I have also been through several older NVidia cards over the past few years, and I haven't had any problems with scaling on those cards. The flat panel monitors can also be a complicating factor. With a CRT type monitor, the control mechanism is analog so they can handle different resolution without much difficulty. The flat panel monitors have a specific number of pixels that are less tolerant of changes in resolution. In some cases, I have seen the monitor or the video card remove every X number pixels to fit the image to the monitor resolution. This can cause some very strange distortions. I also notice that the images you sent me were 1200x1600. You must be running this computer in some sort of "Portrait Mode" where the screen is taller than it is wide. This is an aspect ratio of 3:4 instead of the more typical 4:3. Since this mode is unusual, it is possible that the driver software for this mode is not as well tested as the more typical resolutions. I did a Google search on NVidia cards and aspect ratio scaling problems. There were quite a few responses, some of them related to driver issues. I'm not sure they apply to your specific problem but they are worth a look: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en &q=aspect+ratio+problems+nvidia+cards&aq=f&oq Larry _____ From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dwight Livingston Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 7:00 AM Subject: Re: RE: [compass-users] screen scale Larry Your instructions follow about what I did last night to confirm this problem. I created an east-west shot and a north-south shot of equal lengths, so that they should appear to be equal lengths in plan view. I started the viewer, arranged a view of the two shots with north up, screen captured the view screen, took it to Photoshop, and got a pixel count of the lines. The east-west is longer by about 5%. I did the same process with a vertical shot of the same length, with the same results. I then tried a vertical scale factor of 1.05 percent, and that made the line lengths close, but not exactly matching. I am not using a ruler to measure things as they appear on the screen. I just tried the same test here at work, and the results are much closer to correct, but still off a bit, for example 527 pixels wide to 525 pixels tall. I have an Nvidia card here and a control panel with more options than one might find otherwise, so I played with the Flat Panel Scaling controls. I did not get anything exact, even with the "Do not scale" option. I've attached two screen captures from my left monitor, using your "cross" plot. One shows the station labels, so you might confirm what orientation I am using. The other does not have station labels, so the pixel counts are easier to measure. Thanks Dwight Nov 23, 2008 10:10:56 PM, [email protected] wrote: Hi Dwight, Compass uses the Windows Graphics software to draw all cave plots. I specifically tell Windows to draw the images using a mapping mode that scales everything to thousandth's of an inch: http://msdn. microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms532673(VS.85).aspx The advantage of this is that Windows handles all the scaling for video cards, monitors and printers. On my computers, equal length lines always display with the same number of pixels. If there is a problem, it probably has to do with your video card drivers. Let's see if we can dig a little deeper and diagnose the problem. If you have two 10-meter plot lines, one that goes north and another that goes east, the lines should appear on the screen to have exactly the same number of pixels in length. This assumes that there are no rotations of any kind. If, for example, the cave is tilted, then some lines will display with more pixels and some with less. Now, two lines may have the same number of pixels but appear to be different lengths if you hold a ruler up to your monitor. This is because the monitor's display-height and width can be adjusted. For example, if the horizontal width on the monitor is reduced, horizontal lines will appear shorter. However, even though they are shorter, they will still have the exact same number of pixels. The way I test this problem is to use an artificial cave that has six, 8-foot shots in the North, South, East, West, Up and Down directions. You can download one of my test files here: http://www.fountain ware.com/download/cross2.plt If I measure any two shots at right angles to each other (such as North and East), they measure exactly the same number of pixels. Test this file on your computer and see what kind of measurements you get. If there still seems to be a problem, send me a screen capture of the image and I will check it out. If you need a screen capture program, here is a link to the one I use. There is a free trial version: http://www.PixelMet rics.com Larry _____ size=2 width="100%" alignInter tabIndex=-1 From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dwight Livingston Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 6:25 PM Subject: RE: [compass-users] screen scale Hi Larry I mean the normal Viewer screen. Dwight From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of Larry Fish Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 8:34 PM Subject: RE: [compass-users] screen scale Hi Dwight, I'm not sure what you mean by "screen preview". Do you mean "Print Preview"? Or just the normal Viewer screen? Or something else? Larry _____ From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dwight Livingston Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 6:06 PM Subject: [compass-users] screen scale Larry or anyone I find than my screen preview does not scale equally for width and height. This is in terms of pixel count, and in terms of the screen horizontal and vertical (not the cave's horizontal and vertical.) When I do a screen capture, I get a horizontal about 105% larger than the vertical, or about 105 pixels wide for every 100 pixels tall. Is there a way to adjust this? I would rather the scale be the same. Thanks Dwight v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
Messsage #: 163
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 22:39:18 -0500 From: "Dwight Livingston" Subject: RE: RE: [compass-users] screen scale Larry I downloaded an updated display driver from ATI for the card I use at home. The driver includes some limited scaling controls. As it happened, with the default settings for this new driver Compass produces an exactly correct ratio. So I'm good to go. As an enhancement request, it would be nice if Compass would produce a screen image or bitmap export that scaled for pixels. For my current project I'm scaling all my sketch mosaics at 4 pixels per foot, and that works quite nicely for me. It'd be handy to type a pixels/foot number into the Viewer and get images just that size. Thanks very much for your help. Dwight -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of Larry Fish Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 6:23 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: RE: [compass-users] screen scale Hi Dwight, I looked at the screen captures that you sent me and measured the lengths of the bars in the image. To make sure there was no distortion or scaling problems, I measured the images in MS Paint. I get 1105 vs 1100 for the full length of North/South bar to the East/West bar. This was on the image without station labels. On the image with the station labels, I get 1102 to 1098. Here are the percentage differences: 1105 x 1100 = 0.0045% 1102 x 1098 = 0.0036% These are all less than 1/2 percent difference. I suspect this small difference is due to integer rounding errors when Windows or the Video Drivers converts thousands of an inch to pixels. If the math is not done right, it is fairly easy to introduce rounding errors in the conversion process, especially when the basic numbers are integer to begin with. (All video screen commands in Windows are in integers.) Compass deals with all survey data numbers as floating point values, so there is little chance that Compass is distorting the image. Particularly since I'm not seeing the discrepancy on any of the computer I have around here. I take it from your letter that you are getting much larger errors on your other computer. The fact that you are getting different numbers from one computer to the next, seems to indicate that the problem is computer specific. That would most likely be the Video drivers or Windows itself. I then tried a vertical scale factor of 1.05 percent, and that made the line lengths close, but not exactly matching. When you adjust the "scale factor" did it actually change the number of pixels in the line? If it did, then it indicates that the software is adjusting the aspect ratio between the horizontal and vertical pixels. If that is the case, that would be one more indication that the problem is in the drivers or Windows. I have an Nvidia card here and a control panel with more options than one might find otherwise, I too have an Nvidia card that is new enough to be compatible with Windows Vista. I have also been through several older NVidia cards over the past few years, and I haven't had any problems with scaling on those cards. The flat panel monitors can also be a complicating factor. With a CRT type monitor, the control mechanism is analog so they can handle different resolution without much difficulty. The flat panel monitors have a specific number of pixels that are less tolerant of changes in resolution. In some cases, I have seen the monitor or the video card remove every X number pixels to fit the image to the monitor resolution. This can cause some very strange distortions. I also notice that the images you sent me were 1200x1600. You must be running this computer in some sort of "Portrait Mode" where the screen is taller than it is wide. This is an aspect ratio of 3:4 instead of the more typical 4:3. Since this mode is unusual, it is possible that the driver software for this mode is not as well tested as the more typical resolutions. I did a Google search on NVidia cards and aspect ratio scaling problems. There were quite a few responses, some of them related to driver issues. I'm not sure they apply to your specific problem but they are worth a look: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=aspect+ratio+problems+nvidia+cards&aq =f&oq Larry From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dwight Livingston Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 7:00 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: RE: [compass-users] screen scale Larry Your instructions follow about what I did last night to confirm this problem. I created an east-west shot and a north-south shot of equal lengths, so that they should appear to be equal lengths in plan view. I started the viewer, arranged a view of the two shots with north up, screen captured the view screen, took it to Photoshop, and got a pixel count of the lines. The east-west is longer by about 5%. I did the same process with a vertical shot of the same length, with the same results. I then tried a vertical scale factor of 1.05 percent, and that made the line lengths close, but not exactly matching. I am not using a ruler to measure things as they appear on the screen. I just tried the same test here at work, and the results are much closer to correct, but still off a bit, for example 527 pixels wide to 525 pixels tall. I have an Nvidia card here and a control panel with more options than one might find otherwise, so I played with the Flat Panel Scaling controls. I did not get anything exact, even with the "Do not scale" option. I've attached two screen captures from my left monitor, using your "cross" plot. One shows the station labels, so you might confirm what orientation I am using. The other does not have station labels, so the pixel counts are easier to measure. Thanks Dwight Nov 23, 2008 10:10:56 PM, [email protected] wrote: Hi Dwight, Compass uses the Windows Graphics software to draw all cave plots. I specifically tell Windows to draw the images using a mapping mode that scales everything to thousandth's of an inch: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms532673(VS.85).aspx The advantage of this is that Windows handles all the scaling for video cards, monitors and printers. On my computers, equal length lines always display with the same number of pixels. If there is a problem, it probably has to do with your video card drivers. Let's see if we can dig a little deeper and diagnose the problem. If you have two 10-meter plot lines, one that goes north and another that goes east, the lines should appear on the screen to have exactly the same number of pixels in length. This assumes that there are no rotations of any kind. If, for example, the cave is tilted, then some lines will display with more pixels and some with less. Now, two lines may have the same number of pixels but appear to be different lengths if you hold a ruler up to your monitor. This is because the monitor's display-height and width can be adjusted. For example, if the horizontal width on the monitor is reduced, horizontal lines will appear shorter. However, even though they are shorter, they will still have the exact same number of pixels. The way I test this problem is to use an artificial cave that has six, 8-foot shots in the North, South, East, West, Up and Down directions. You can download one of my test files here: http://www.fountainware.com/download/cross2.plt If I measure any two shots at right angles to each other (such as North and East), they measure exactly the same number of pixels. Test this file on your computer and see what kind of measurements you get. If there still seems to be a problem, send me a screen capture of the image and I will check it out. If you need a screen capture program, here is a link to the one I use. There is a free trial version: http://www.PixelMetrics.com Larry [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dwight Livingston Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 6:25 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: [compass-users] screen scale Hi Larry I mean the normal Viewer screen. Dwight -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of Larry Fish Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 8:34 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: [compass-users] screen scale Hi Dwight, I'm not sure what you mean by "screen preview". Do you mean "Print Preview"? Or just the normal Viewer screen? Or something else? Larry From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dwight Livingston Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 6:06 PM To: Compass-Users Subject: [compass-users] screen scale Larry or anyone I find than my screen preview does not scale equally for width and height. This is in terms of pixel count, and in terms of the screen horizontal and vertical (not the cave's horizontal and vertical.) When I do a screen capture, I get a horizontal about 105% larger than the vertical, or about 105 pixels wide for every 100 pixels tall. Is there a way to adjust this? I would rather the scale be the same. Thanks Dwight Larry I downloaded an updated display driver from ATI for the card I use at home. The driver includes some limited scaling controls. As it happened, with the default settings for this new driver Compass produces an exactly correct ratio. So I'm good to go. As an enhancement request, it would be nice if Compass would produce a screen image or bitmap export that scaled for pixels. For my current project I'm scaling all my sketch mosaics at 4 pixels per foot, and that works quite nicely for me. It'd be handy to type a pixels/foot number into the Viewer and get images just that size. Thanks very much for your help. Dwight -----Original Message-----From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of Larry FishSent: Monday, November 24, 2008 6:23 PMTo: [email protected]: RE: RE: [compass-users] screen scale Hi Dwight, I looked at the screen captures that you sent me and measured the lengths of the bars in the image. To make sure there was no distortion or scaling problems, I measured the images in MS Paint. I get 1105 vs 1100 for the full length of North/South bar to the East/West bar. This was on the image without station labels. On the image with the station labels, I get 1102 to 1098. Here are the percentage differences: 1105 x 1100 = 0.0045% 1102 x 1098 = 0.0036% These are all less than 1/2 percent difference. I suspect this small difference is due to integer rounding errors when Windows or the Video Drivers converts thousands of an inch to pixels. If the math is not done right, it is fairly easy to introduce rounding errors in the conversion process, especially when the basic numbers are integer to begin with. (All video screen commands in Windows are in integers.) Compass deals with all survey data numbers as floating point values, so there is little chance that Compass is distorting the image. Particularly since I'm not seeing the discrepancy on any of the computer I have around here. I take it from your letter that you are getting much larger errors on your other computer. The fact that you are getting different numbers from one computer to the next, seems to indicate that the problem is computer specific. That would most likely be the Video drivers or Windows itself. > I then tried a vertical scale factor of 1.05 percent, and > that made the line lengths close, but not exactly matching. When you adjust the "scale factor" did it actually change the number of pixels in the line? If it did, then it indicates that the software is adjusting the aspect ratio between the horizontal and vertical pixels. If that is the case, that would be one more indication that the problem is in the drivers or Windows. > I have an Nvidia card here and a control panel with more > options than one might find otherwise, I too have an Nvidia card that is new enough to be compatible with Windows Vista. I have also been through several older NVidia cards over the past few years, and I haven't had any problems with scaling on those cards. The flat panel monitors can also be a complicating factor. With a CRT type monitor, the control mechanism is analog so they can handle different resolution without much difficulty. The flat panel monitors have a specific number of pixels that are less tolerant of changes in resolution. In some cases, I have seen the monitor or the video card remove every X number pixels to fit the image to the monitor resolution. This can cause some very strange distortions. I also notice that the images you sent me were 1200x1600. You must be running this computer in some sort of "Portrait Mode" where the screen is taller than it is wide. This is an aspect ratio of 3:4 instead of the more typical 4:3. Since this mode is unusual, it is possible that the driver software for this mode is not as well tested as the more typical resolutions. I did a Google search on NVidia cards and aspect ratio scaling problems. There were quite a few responses, some of them related to driver issues. I'm not sure they apply to your specific problem but they are worth a look: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=aspect+ratio+problems+nvidia+cards&aq=f&oq Larry From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dwight LivingstonSent: Monday, November 24, 2008 7:00 AMTo: [email protected]: Re: RE: [compass-users] screen scale Larry Your instructions follow about what I did last night to confirm this problem. I created an east-west shot and a north-south shot of equal lengths, so that they should appear to be equal lengths in plan view. I started the viewer, arranged a view of the two shots with north up, screen captured the view screen, took it to Photoshop, and got a pixel count of the lines. The east-west is longer by about 5%. I did the same process with a vertical shot of the same length, with the same results. I then tried a vertical scale factor of 1.05 percent, and that made the line lengths close, but not exactly matching. I am not using a ruler to measure things as they appear on the screen. I just tried the same test here at work, and the results are much closer to correct, but still off a bit, for example 527 pixels wide to 525 pixels tall. I have an Nvidia card here and a control panel with more options than one might find otherwise, so I played with the Flat Panel Scaling controls. I did not get anything exact, even with the "Do not scale" option. I've attached two screen captures from my left monitor, using your "cross" plot. One shows the station labels, so you might confirm what orientation I am using. The other does not have station labels, so the pixel counts are easier to measure. Thanks Dwight Nov 23, 2008 10:10:56 PM, [email protected] wrote: Hi Dwight, Compass uses the Windows Graphics software to draw all cave plots. I specifically tell Windows to draw the images using a mapping mode that scales everything to thousandth's of an inch: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms532673(VS.85).aspx The advantage of this is that Windows handles all the scaling for video cards, monitors and printers. On my computers, equal length lines always display with the same number of pixels. If there is a problem, it probably has to do with your video card drivers. Let's see if we can dig a little deeper and diagnose the problem. If you have two 10-meter plot lines, one that goes north and another that goes east, the lines should appear on the screen to have exactly the same number of pixels in length. This assumes that there are no rotations of any kind. If, for example, the cave is tilted, then some lines will display with more pixels and some with less. Now, two lines may have the same number of pixels but appear to be different lengths if you hold a ruler up to your monitor. This is because the monitor's display-height and width can be adjusted. For example, if the horizontal width on the monitor is reduced, horizontal lines will appear shorter. However, even though they are shorter, they will still have the exact same number of pixels. The way I test this problem is to use an artificial cave that has six, 8-foot shots in the North, South, East, West, Up and Down directions. You can download one of my test files here: http://www.fountainware.com/download/cross2.plt If I measure any two shots at right angles to each other (such as North and East), they measure exactly the same number of pixels. Test this file on your computer and see what kind of measurements you get. If there still seems to be a problem, send me a screen capture of the image and I will check it out. If you need a screen capture program, here is a link to the one I use. There is a free trial version: http://www.PixelMetrics.com Larry size=2 width="100%" align=center tabIndex=-1> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dwight LivingstonSent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 6:25 PMTo: [email protected]: RE: [compass-users] screen scale Hi Larry I mean the normal Viewer screen. Dwight -----Original Message-----From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of Larry FishSent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 8:34 PMTo: [email protected]: RE: [compass-users] screen scale Hi Dwight, I'm not sure what you mean by "screen preview". Do you mean "Print Preview"? Or just the normal Viewer screen? Or something else? Larry From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dwight LivingstonSent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 6:06 PMTo: Compass-UsersSubject: [compass-users] screen scale Larry or anyoneI find than my screen preview does not scale equally for width and height.This is in terms of pixel count, and in terms of the screen horizontal andvertical (not the cave's horizontal and vertical.) When I do a screencapture, I get a horizontal about 105% larger than the vertical, or about105 pixels wide for every 100 pixels tall.Is there a way to adjust this? I would rather the scale be the same.ThanksDwight
Messsage #: 164
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