Yahoo Archive - 2010

You can search all users group archives using the Google Search gadget
 

Click here for an overview of the Compass Users Group Archives:

Archives Overview.


Messsage #: 206
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 15:31:38 -0000
From: "Chas" 
Subject: Compass problem

Compass doesn't like 2010. It gives an error concerning magnetic declination when I try to set the date. It worked fine in December. Any suggestions?


Messsage #: 207
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 02:03:16 -0700
From: "Larry Fish" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] Compass problem

Thanks for pointing out the problem. The Magnetic Declination data only ran
through the end of 2009 so I had to update data. There is a new version on
the internet.

Everybody that uses the Magnetic Declination calculation in Compass should
down load the new version.

Larry

  _____  

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Chas
Sent: Friday, January 22, 2010 8:32 AM
Subject: [compass-users] Compass problem

Compass doesn't like 2010. It gives an error concerning magnetic declination
when I try to set the date. It worked fine in December. Any suggestions?

v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}

st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }


Messsage #: 208
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 16:44:12 -0700
From: "Rich Bohman" 
Subject: SVG export of profiles?

Larry, 

I'm trying to perform an SVG export of a pretty small cave, and I cannot
export the profile. 

I see plenty of details on the map display window when the "plan" radio
button is selected under the "Pos/scale" tab, but everything goes blank when
I select the "Profile" radio button. An SVG export with that setting results
in no data in the w2d_Survey layer. 

Do I need to do something special to the .plt file, or is the profile export
not yet functional?

Thanks for the help. 

-Rich


Messsage #: 209
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 20:34:34 -0400
From: Tony Canike 
Subject: highlighting blundered loops on map

Hi folks,

Taking over a long-running mapping project here, and have a cave with 
3000 stations and 65 loops.    Of course, there are varying levels of 
error in the loops, and I'd like to go and resurvey a couple of the 
worst loops.   To do this, I am trying to find a way to highlight 
specific loops on the lineplot.      I have figured out how to find the 
loops with the most error, and to get the names of the stations that 
make up the loop, and I can find a couple of the stations on the line 
plot, but to find the whole loop is time consuming.

For example, I'd like to select the loop with the greatest error (which 
happens to have about 40 stations in it and ties in to about 6 other 
loops) and have it a plot in a different color so I can create a map to 
explain to the survey team what needs to be resurveyed.

Any ideas?

Thanks,

Tony.


Messsage #: 210
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 04:13:27 -0600
From: "Larry Fish" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] SVG export of profiles?

Rich,

Thanks for your email. I had seen this problem before but hadn't focused on
it because I was tracking down a different problem at the time. It doesn't
happen on every cave, so it took some testing and I finally found one that
had the same problem. I tracked down the bug and fixed it.

There is a new version here:

http://www.fountainware.com/compass/Beta.htm

Let me know if this fixes the problem. It could be that I only fixed it for
the one cave I tested it on.

Thanks for your feedback; it very useful for tracking down problems like
this.

Larry

  _____  

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Rich Bohman
Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 5:44 PM
Subject: [compass-users] SVG export of profiles?

Larry, 

I'm trying to perform an SVG export of a pretty small cave, and I cannot
export the profile. 

I see plenty of details on the map display window when the "plan" radio
button is selected under the "Pos/scale" tab, but everything goes blank when
I select the "Profile" radio button. An SVG export with that setting results
in no data in the w2d_Survey layer. 

Do I need to do something special to the .plt file, or is the profile export
not yet functional?

Thanks for the help. 

-Rich

v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}

st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }


Messsage #: 211
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 04:57:32 -0600
From: "Larry Fish" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] highlighting blundered loops on map

Hi Tony,

Thanks for your questions. The latest version of Compass allows the Viewer
to display loops. This version was posted on 12/22/2009, so if you haven't
downloaded a version after that date, you need to download and install the
new version.

To get to the new feature, select the "Tools - View Loops" option from the
Viewer Menu bar. Press the "Help Button" to get detailed information about
using the feature.

Now this is the tricky part. The algorithm I use find to loops in the
"Viewer" is better than the one in the Project Manager. As a result, the
Project Manager and the Blunder Detection tools may show different loops
with different stations than the Viewer. If you find a problem with this,
you can turn off the "Optimize" option in the Viewer Loop Finder and have
the Viewer search for loops again. With the optimization turned off, the
Algorithm works more like the one in the Project Manager. However, even with
"Optimization" turned off, it may find slightly different loops.

In Compass, the loops are labeled by the two stations that make up the shot
that closes the loop. Since the Viewer uses a different algorithm for find
the loops, it may also decide a different shot closes the loop. For this
reason, you may find that the labels for the loops are not the same.

Eventually I plan to have all programs use the same algorithm and have the
blunder and loop information better integrated with the Viewer. I just
haven't had time to work on the changes. 

Let me know if you have any more questions.

Larry

  _____  

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Tony Canike
Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 6:35 PM
Subject: [compass-users] highlighting blundered loops on map

Hi folks,

Taking over a long-running mapping project here, and have a cave with 
3000 stations and 65 loops. Of course, there are varying levels of 
error in the loops, and I'd like to go and resurvey a couple of the 
worst loops. To do this, I am trying to find a way to highlight 
specific loops on the lineplot. I have figured out how to find the 
loops with the most error, and to get the names of the stations that 
make up the loop, and I can find a couple of the stations on the line 
plot, but to find the whole loop is time consuming.

For example, I'd like to select the loop with the greatest error (which 
happens to have about 40 stations in it and ties in to about 6 other 
loops) and have it a plot in a different color so I can create a map to 
explain to the survey team what needs to be resurveyed.

Any ideas?

Thanks,

Tony.

v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}

st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }


Messsage #: 212
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 19:02:10 -0400
From: Tony Canike 
Subject: Re: highlighting blundered loops on map

Hi Larry,

Just downloaded the new version and checked it out.   Pretty sweet.  
Took a couple minutes to match up the loops in the two programs but with 
your hints it is doable, and the View Loops feature really helps a lot!

Thank you,

Tony.

On 3/18/2010 6:57 AM, Larry Fish ([email protected]) wrote

 Hi Tony,

 Thanks for your questions. The latest version of Compass allows the 
 Viewer to display loops. This version was posted on 12/22/2009, so if 
 you haven't downloaded a version after that date, you need to download 
 and install the new version.

 To get to the new feature, select the "Tools - View Loops" option from 
 the Viewer Menu bar. Press the "Help Button" to get detailed 
 information about using the feature.

 Now this is the tricky part. The algorithm I use find to loops in the 
 "Viewer" is better than the one in the Project Manager. As a result, 
 the Project Manager and the Blunder Detection tools may show different 
 loops with different stations than the Viewer. If you find a problem 
 with this, you can turn off the "Optimize" option in the Viewer Loop 
 Finder and have the Viewer search for loops again. With the 
 optimization turned off, the Algorithm works more like the one in the 
 Project Manager. However, even with "Optimization" turned off, it may 
 find slightly different loops.

 In Compass, the loops are labeled by the two stations that make up the 
 shot that closes the loop. Since the Viewer uses a different algorithm 
 for find the loops, it may also decide a different shot closes the 
 loop. For this reason, you may find that the labels for the loops are 
 not the same.

 Eventually I plan to have all programs use the same algorithm and have 
 the blunder and loop information better integrated with the Viewer. I 
 just haven't had time to work on the changes.

 Let me know if you have any more questions.

 Larry

 ------------------------------------------------------------------------

 *From:* [email protected] 
 [mailto:[email protected]] *On Behalf Of *Tony Canike
 *Sent:* Wednesday, March 17, 2010 6:35 PM
 *To:* [email protected]
 *Subject:* [compass-users] highlighting blundered loops on map

 Hi folks,

 Taking over a long-running mapping project here, and have a cave with
 3000 stations and 65 loops. Of course, there are varying levels of
 error in the loops, and I'd like to go and resurvey a couple of the
 worst loops. To do this, I am trying to find a way to highlight
 specific loops on the lineplot. I have figured out how to find the
 loops with the most error, and to get the names of the stations that
 make up the loop, and I can find a couple of the stations on the line
 plot, but to find the whole loop is time consuming.

 For example, I'd like to select the loop with the greatest error (which
 happens to have about 40 stations in it and ties in to about 6 other
 loops) and have it a plot in a different color so I can create a map to
 explain to the survey team what needs to be resurveyed.

 Any ideas?

 Thanks,

 Tony.

Hi Larry, 

Just downloaded the new version and checked it out.   Pretty sweet. 
Took a couple minutes to match up the loops in the two programs but
with your hints it is doable, and the View Loops feature really helps a
lot!

Thank you,

Tony.

On 3/18/2010 6:57 AM, Larry Fish ([email protected]) wrote
 
  
  Hi Tony,
   
  Thanks for
your questions. The latest
version of Compass allows the Viewer to display loops. This version was
posted
on 12/22/2009, so if you haven't downloaded a version after that date,
you need
to download and install the new version.
   
  To get to
the new feature, select the
"Tools - View Loops" option from the Viewer Menu bar. Press the
"Help Button" to get detailed information about using the feature.
   
  Now this is
the tricky part. The algorithm
I use find to loops in the "Viewer" is better than the one in the
Project Manager. As a result, the Project Manager and the Blunder
Detection
tools may show different loops with different stations than the Viewer.
If you
find a problem with this, you can turn off the "Optimize" option in
the Viewer Loop Finder and have the Viewer search for loops again. With
the
optimization turned off, the Algorithm works more like the one in the
Project
Manager. However, even with "Optimization" turned off, it may find
slightly different loops.
   
  In Compass,
the loops are labeled by the
two stations that make up the shot that closes the loop. Since the
Viewer uses
a different algorithm for find the loops, it may also decide a
different shot
closes the loop. For this reason, you may find that the labels for the
loops
are not the same.
   
  Eventually I
plan to have all programs use
the same algorithm and have the blunder and loop information better
integrated
with the Viewer. I just haven’t had time to work on the changes. 
   
  Let me know
if you have any more
questions.
   
  Larry
  
  From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Tony Canike
  Sent: Wednesday, March
17, 2010
6:35 PM
  To: [email protected]
  Subject:
[compass-users] highlighting
blundered loops on map
  
   
    
  
Hi folks,
  
Taking over a long-running mapping project here, and have a cave with 
3000 stations and 65 loops. Of course, there are varying levels of 
error in the loops, and I'd like to go and resurvey a couple of the 
worst loops. To do this, I am trying to find a way to highlight 
specific loops on the lineplot. I have figured out how to find the 
loops with the most error, and to get the names of the stations that 
make up the loop, and I can find a couple of the stations on the line 
plot, but to find the whole loop is time consuming.
  
For example, I'd like to select the loop with the greatest error (which
  
happens to have about 40 stations in it and ties in to about 6 other 
loops) and have it a plot in a different color so I can create a map to
  
explain to the survey team what needs to be resurveyed.
  
Any ideas?
  
Thanks,
  
Tony.


Messsage #: 213
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2010 04:47:09 -0600
From: "Larry Fish" 
Subject: New Compass release:

I wanted to let everybody know I'm releasing a new version of Compass today.
I have taken the SVG Exporter/Morpher and Sketch Map Editor out of Beta test
and it is ready for general use. There are also several other new features
and improvements. For a complete description of what's new, check out the
Compass web page:

http://www.fountainware.com/compass

Larry Fish


Messsage #: 214
Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2010 09:42:02 -0400
From: "Dwight Livingston" 
Subject: SVG exporter suggestions

Larry

I am enjoying your SVG exporter program, maybe not using it fully at this
point but I find it useful to make plots for profiles. It is handy to turn
off some shots, so I can see the shots I need. I am doing multiple profiles
and have a dense rat's nest of survey lines. It's working for me, and I have
a couple of suggestions for the program.

For one, it would be good if the scale, rotation, and offsets did not jump
around when I change the view or paper. That initially tripped me up and as
a result I exported a subtly incorrect SVG. I know to check now, but even so
I'd like to switch between plan and profile views without having to reset
scale and rotation.

For another, it'd be helpful if the LRUD lines where divided between LRs and
UDs, so that I could turn off left/rights in profiles and turn off up/downs
in plans.

While I'm asking, it'd be great if I could save my settings for the Cave
Viewer. I open that thing many times in a work session and have to set
various things each time.

Thanks

Dwight


Messsage #: 215
Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2010 00:12:01 -0000
From: "Howard" 
Subject: Scaling issue in Illustrator

Hi Larry
I had an interesting problem pop up today. I surveyed a cave this weekend that must have hit all points of the compass rose.. This meant I could never quite get the orientation of the paper correct, and as a result was sketching 2 or three small sections per page. 
So I used your sketch editor to put everything together and it looked great!

I exported it to illustrator and started to get to work on it. I then used your SVG exporter to put in a clean copy of the plan and the profile surveys and compared them. 

They did not match. The JPG from the sketch editor was larger then the survey plot from the SVG editor. 
When I have the screen on illustrator set to 100% the Sketch is correct, but the still larger then the plot. However the grid in illustrator is also small (one inch in the grid, at 100% is still smaller then 1 inch with a ruler) 

Playing around with it, I found that the scaling factor for the sketch was about 73% to match the plot. When I exported the survey scans directly into illustrator they matched the plot, and the grid, but not the sketch editor sketch.

Subsequently I found that 'that Illustrator's 100% assumes a 72 ppi display resolution, regardless of the actual display resolution' 
So it would seem for illustrator users, they would need to set the sketches to 72 instead of the 100 that you recco in the instructions.

Does this sound right to you? Has anyone else seen this issue?

Howard Kalnitz


Messsage #: 216
Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2010 04:40:56 -0600
From: "Larry Fish" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] Scaling issue in Illustrator

Hi Howard,

I didn't want you to think that I had missed you email, but I'm working on
some potential solutions to your problem and it is taking some time
experimenting with the code to see if I can make some changes that will
help. I should have something for you some time this weekend or early next
week.

Larry

  _____  

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Howard
Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2010 6:12 PM
Subject: [compass-users] Scaling issue in Illustrator

Hi Larry
I had an interesting problem pop up today. I surveyed a cave this weekend
that must have hit all points of the compass rose.. This meant I could never
quite get the orientation of the paper correct, and as a result was
sketching 2 or three small sections per page. 
So I used your sketch editor to put everything together and it looked great!

I exported it to illustrator and started to get to work on it. I then used
your SVG exporter to put in a clean copy of the plan and the profile surveys
and compared them. 

They did not match. The JPG from the sketch editor was larger then the
survey plot from the SVG editor. 
When I have the screen on illustrator set to 100% the Sketch is correct, but
the still larger then the plot. However the grid in illustrator is also
small (one inch in the grid, at 100% is still smaller then 1 inch with a
ruler) 

Playing around with it, I found that the scaling factor for the sketch was
about 73% to match the plot. When I exported the survey scans directly into
illustrator they matched the plot, and the grid, but not the sketch editor
sketch.

Subsequently I found that 'that Illustrator's 100% assumes a 72 ppi display
resolution, regardless of the actual display resolution' 
So it would seem for illustrator users, they would need to set the sketches
to 72 instead of the 100 that you recco in the instructions.

Does this sound right to you? Has anyone else seen this issue?

Howard Kalnitz

v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}

st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }


Messsage #: 217
Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2010 02:57:30 -0600
From: "Larry Fish" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] Scaling issue in Illustrator

Howard,

Thanks for your email. I don't have a lot of experience with Illustrator. I
only have one version of Illustrator, version CS2 and I have heard there are
significant differences between the different versions.

My guess is that the problem is with the Bitmap image of your sketch map and
not the SVG file. In theory, the plot lines and passages in SVG file should
be set to the exact lengths of the passages relative to paper size. For
example, if the passage is 100 feet long and the scale is 100 ft/inch, the
SVG drawing should have a 1-inch line.

On the other hand, I think the problem is caused by the bitmap image of your
sketch map. My guess is that Illustrator is probably assigning an arbitrary
scale to your sketch map. 

As a result, I have added a new feature to the Sketch map Editor. You now
have the option of setting the internal scale of the bitmap before you save
it. The Internal Scale values appear at the bottom of the main screen and
you can change them to anything you want. This only applies Windows
BMP-style Bitmaps. It does not work with GIF, JPG, PNG or TIFF files right
now. 

I'm not sure this will work with Illustrator, but I think there is a good
chance. I didn't have a project setup or the time to test it. Let me know if
it helps. If it doesn't help, I think you are going to have to re-scale the
bitmap using Illustrator's tools like you are already doing.

There is a new copy of the Sketch map Editor here:

http://www.fountainware.com/compass/download.htm

Let me know what you think.

Larry

  _____  

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Howard
Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2010 6:12 PM
Subject: [compass-users] Scaling issue in Illustrator

Hi Larry
I had an interesting problem pop up today. I surveyed a cave this weekend
that must have hit all points of the compass rose.. This meant I could never
quite get the orientation of the paper correct, and as a result was
sketching 2 or three small sections per page. 
So I used your sketch editor to put everything together and it looked great!

I exported it to illustrator and started to get to work on it. I then used
your SVG exporter to put in a clean copy of the plan and the profile surveys
and compared them. 

They did not match. The JPG from the sketch editor was larger then the
survey plot from the SVG editor. 
When I have the screen on illustrator set to 100% the Sketch is correct, but
the still larger then the plot. However the grid in illustrator is also
small (one inch in the grid, at 100% is still smaller then 1 inch with a
ruler) 

Playing around with it, I found that the scaling factor for the sketch was
about 73% to match the plot. When I exported the survey scans directly into
illustrator they matched the plot, and the grid, but not the sketch editor
sketch.

Subsequently I found that 'that Illustrator's 100% assumes a 72 ppi display
resolution, regardless of the actual display resolution' 
So it would seem for illustrator users, they would need to set the sketches
to 72 instead of the 100 that you recco in the instructions.

Does this sound right to you? Has anyone else seen this issue?

Howard Kalnitz

v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}

st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }


Messsage #: 218
Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2010 21:47:03 -0000
From: "Howard" 
Subject: Re: Scaling issue in Illustrator

Larry
Thanks for the reply
You are exactly right - there is nothing wrong with the SVG editor. It imports the data into Illustrator exactly right.

I played around with it and am sure the problem is that I set the original paper scale in the sketch editor to 100DPI when I drew a line of 1 inch. Illustrator DOES set its scaling to 72 DPI

When I tried your scaling before saving - it did not change either the JPG ( which you warned it wouldnt) or the bitmap.

Then I went into the edit section - I drew a line that was 100dpi long (because that is what I set it to before), then resized it to 72, saved it and exported it again, and it was perfect.

Not sure what you have to do to make the button you added work - I think I may not have done it right. I will continue to play with it a bit.  But perhaps all we need to do is make sure that illustrator users know to use 72 instead of 100 in the resizing step

I am going to try to add some photos - the first would be as the original sketch from the sketch editor is added with the SVG in illustrator, the second is after I resized the total morph (one one step) in the editor section.

Howard

 Howard,
 
 Thanks for your email. I don't have a lot of experience with Illustrator. I
 only have one version of Illustrator, version CS2 and I have heard there are
 significant differences between the different versions.
 
 My guess is that the problem is with the Bitmap image of your sketch map and
 not the SVG file. In theory, the plot lines and passages in SVG file should
 be set to the exact lengths of the passages relative to paper size. For
 example, if the passage is 100 feet long and the scale is 100 ft/inch, the
 SVG drawing should have a 1-inch line.
 
 On the other hand, I think the problem is caused by the bitmap image of your
 sketch map. My guess is that Illustrator is probably assigning an arbitrary
 scale to your sketch map. 
 
 As a result, I have added a new feature to the Sketch map Editor. You now
 have the option of setting the internal scale of the bitmap before you save
 it. The Internal Scale values appear at the bottom of the main screen and
 you can change them to anything you want. This only applies Windows
 BMP-style Bitmaps. It does not work with GIF, JPG, PNG or TIFF files right
 now. 
 
 I'm not sure this will work with Illustrator, but I think there is a good
 chance. I didn't have a project setup or the time to test it. Let me know if
 it helps. If it doesn't help, I think you are going to have to re-scale the
 bitmap using Illustrator's tools like you are already doing.
 
 There is a new copy of the Sketch map Editor here:
 
 http://www.fountainware.com/compass/download.htm
 
 Let me know what you think.
 
 Larry
 
   _____  
 
 From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
 On Behalf Of Howard
 Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2010 6:12 PM
 To: [email protected]
 Subject: [compass-users] Scaling issue in Illustrator
 
 Hi Larry
 I had an interesting problem pop up today. I surveyed a cave this weekend
 that must have hit all points of the compass rose.. This meant I could never
 quite get the orientation of the paper correct, and as a result was
 sketching 2 or three small sections per page. 
 So I used your sketch editor to put everything together and it looked great!
 
 I exported it to illustrator and started to get to work on it. I then used
 your SVG exporter to put in a clean copy of the plan and the profile surveys
 and compared them. 
 
 They did not match. The JPG from the sketch editor was larger then the
 survey plot from the SVG editor. 
 When I have the screen on illustrator set to 100% the Sketch is correct, but
 the still larger then the plot. However the grid in illustrator is also
 small (one inch in the grid, at 100% is still smaller then 1 inch with a
 ruler) 
 
 Playing around with it, I found that the scaling factor for the sketch was
 about 73% to match the plot. When I exported the survey scans directly into
 illustrator they matched the plot, and the grid, but not the sketch editor
 sketch.
 
 Subsequently I found that 'that Illustrator's 100% assumes a 72 ppi display
 resolution, regardless of the actual display resolution' 
 So it would seem for illustrator users, they would need to set the sketches
 to 72 instead of the 100 that you recco in the instructions.
 
 Does this sound right to you? Has anyone else seen this issue?
 
 Howard Kalnitz


Messsage #: 219
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2010 16:41:34 -0600
From: "Larry Fish" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] Re: Scaling issue in Illustrator

Hi Howard

 Not sure what you have to do to make the button you added

 work - I think I may not have done it right. I will continue

 to play with it a bit. But perhaps all we need to do is make

 sure that illustrator users know to use 72 instead of 100 in

 the resizing step

It took me a minute to figure out what button you were talking about. It was
a test button that I forgot to remove. You can ignore that button. (There is
a new version of the Sketch Editor on the internet without the button.)

This is a bit confusing: The actual place that you set the Bitmap Resolution
is not in Editor where you measure the resolution by drawing the line. It is
on the main page, - the first window that you see when you first run the
program. At the bottom of this First Window are two small number-boxes.
These boxes allow you to control the scaling of the bitmap.

One of the boxes displays English Units and one displays Metric Units. When
you read a bitmap into the Sketch Editor, it reads the scale from the bitmap
and displays the results in the boxes. You can change the value in the boxes
just before you save the file and it will put those values into the file.

I had originally wanted to put this function inside the Drawing Editor
itself so it would be there when you did the measuring operation.
Unfortunately, all the different operations can perform in other parts of
the program can change the resolution without you knowing it. For that
reason, the program only deals with the resolution when it reads the file
and when it saves the file. If you don't do anything, it will save the file
with the same resolution as the original file. If you change the resolution
before you save, it will save it with the new resolution.

I'm not sure this feature will fix the problem with Illustrator. Lots of
programs simply ignore the bitmap resolution and use whatever it needs to
make the image appear normal sized. If this works, I may be able to add the
same information to other types of files such as TIFFs, GIFs and JPEGs.

Thanks for testing the program. It really helps me when I get feed back from
people trying to use it.

Larry

  _____  

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Howard
Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 3:47 PM
Subject: [compass-users] Re: Scaling issue in Illustrator

Larry
Thanks for the reply
You are exactly right - there is nothing wrong with the SVG editor. It
imports the data into Illustrator exactly right.

I played around with it and am sure the problem is that I set the original
paper scale in the sketch editor to 100DPI when I drew a line of 1 inch.
Illustrator DOES set its scaling to 72 DPI

When I tried your scaling before saving - it did not change either the JPG (
which you warned it wouldnt) or the bitmap.

Then I went into the edit section - I drew a line that was 100dpi long
(because that is what I set it to before), then resized it to 72, saved it
and exported it again, and it was perfect.

Not sure what you have to do to make the button you added work - I think I
may not have done it right. I will continue to play with it a bit. But
perhaps all we need to do is make sure that illustrator users know to use 72
instead of 100 in the resizing step

I am going to try to add some photos - the first would be as the original
sketch from the sketch editor is added with the SVG in illustrator, the
second is after I resized the total morph (one one step) in the editor
section.

Howard

 , "Larry Fish"  wrote:

 Howard,
 
 Thanks for your email. I don't have a lot of experience with Illustrator.
I
 only have one version of Illustrator, version CS2 and I have heard there
are
 significant differences between the different versions.
 
 My guess is that the problem is with the Bitmap image of your sketch map
and
 not the SVG file. In theory, the plot lines and passages in SVG file
should
 be set to the exact lengths of the passages relative to paper size. For
 example, if the passage is 100 feet long and the scale is 100 ft/inch, the
 SVG drawing should have a 1-inch line.
 
 On the other hand, I think the problem is caused by the bitmap image of
your
 sketch map. My guess is that Illustrator is probably assigning an
arbitrary
 scale to your sketch map. 
 
 As a result, I have added a new feature to the Sketch map Editor. You now
 have the option of setting the internal scale of the bitmap before you
save
 it. The Internal Scale values appear at the bottom of the main screen and
 you can change them to anything you want. This only applies Windows
 BMP-style Bitmaps. It does not work with GIF, JPG, PNG or TIFF files right
 now. 
 
 I'm not sure this will work with Illustrator, but I think there is a good
 chance. I didn't have a project setup or the time to test it. Let me know
if
 it helps. If it doesn't help, I think you are going to have to re-scale
the
 bitmap using Illustrator's tools like you are already doing.
 
 There is a new copy of the Sketch map Editor here:
 
 http://www.fountainware.com/compass/download.htm
 
 Let me know what you think.
 
 Larry
 
 _____ 
 
 From: [email protected]

[mailto:[email protected]
 ]
 On Behalf Of Howard
 Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2010 6:12 PM
 To: [email protected] 

 Subject: [compass-users] Scaling issue in Illustrator
 
 Hi Larry
 I had an interesting problem pop up today. I surveyed a cave this weekend
 that must have hit all points of the compass rose.. This meant I could
never
 quite get the orientation of the paper correct, and as a result was
 sketching 2 or three small sections per page. 
 So I used your sketch editor to put everything together and it looked
great!
 
 I exported it to illustrator and started to get to work on it. I then used
 your SVG exporter to put in a clean copy of the plan and the profile
surveys
 and compared them. 
 
 They did not match. The JPG from the sketch editor was larger then the
 survey plot from the SVG editor. 
 When I have the screen on illustrator set to 100% the Sketch is correct,
but
 the still larger then the plot. However the grid in illustrator is also
 small (one inch in the grid, at 100% is still smaller then 1 inch with a
 ruler) 
 
 Playing around with it, I found that the scaling factor for the sketch was
 about 73% to match the plot. When I exported the survey scans directly
into
 illustrator they matched the plot, and the grid, but not the sketch editor
 sketch.
 
 Subsequently I found that 'that Illustrator's 100% assumes a 72 ppi
display
 resolution, regardless of the actual display resolution' 
 So it would seem for illustrator users, they would need to set the
sketches
 to 72 instead of the 100 that you recco in the instructions.
 
 Does this sound right to you? Has anyone else seen this issue?
 
 Howard Kalnitz

v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}


Messsage #: 220
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 01:17:14 -0000
From: "Howard" 
Subject: Re: Scaling issue in Illustrator

 It is
 on the main page, - the first window that you see when you first run the
 program. At the bottom of this First Window are two small number-boxes.
 These boxes allow you to control the scaling of the bitmap.
 
 One of the boxes displays English Units and one displays Metric Units. When
 you read a bitmap into the Sketch Editor, it reads the scale from the bitmap
 and displays the results in the boxes. You can change the value in the boxes
 just before you save the file and it will put those values into the file.
 
Hi Larry
Sorry for the delay - I am just now getting back to this.
I do see the boxes you describe. I took my original morphed sketch, and set this box to 70 and saved it. Then I opened it in illustrator. It opened the same as the previous file with no adjustment in the box - too big in other words.
Since this was in jpeg, i tried again in tiff. Tiff did not read into Illustrator at all. In bitmap, the file opened, but again there was no change to the file at all.
Where ever you are placing it in the file - it does not seem to make any change to how  illustrator opens it up...

When I reset it in the edit mode it worked, but not out in the main screen using the new boxes.

I will still use it, just scale it to 72% in illustrator for now. If you need more screen grabs or anything else just let me know.
Thanks for all the help
Howard


Messsage #: 221
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 02:25:33 -0600
From: "Larry Fish" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] Re: Scaling issue in Illustrator

Howard,

Thanks for the feed back. It appears that Illustrator pays no attention to
the scaling information contained in a Windows Bitmap. That means it is
probably not worth the time to trying pursue this tactic. It probably will
ignore scaling information in other bitmap formats too.

Larry

  _____  

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Howard
Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2010 7:17 PM
Subject: [compass-users] Re: Scaling issue in Illustrator

It is
 on the main page, - the first window that you see when you first run the
 program. At the bottom of this First Window are two small number-boxes.
 These boxes allow you to control the scaling of the bitmap.
 
 One of the boxes displays English Units and one displays Metric Units.
When
 you read a bitmap into the Sketch Editor, it reads the scale from the
bitmap
 and displays the results in the boxes. You can change the value in the
boxes
 just before you save the file and it will put those values into the file.

Hi Larry
Sorry for the delay - I am just now getting back to this.
I do see the boxes you describe. I took my original morphed sketch, and set
this box to 70 and saved it. Then I opened it in illustrator. It opened the
same as the previous file with no adjustment in the box - too big in other
words.
Since this was in jpeg, i tried again in tiff. Tiff did not read into
Illustrator at all. In bitmap, the file opened, but again there was no
change to the file at all.
Where ever you are placing it in the file - it does not seem to make any
change to how illustrator opens it up...

When I reset it in the edit mode it worked, but not out in the main screen
using the new boxes.

I will still use it, just scale it to 72% in illustrator for now. If you
need more screen grabs or anything else just let me know.
Thanks for all the help
Howard

v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}


Messsage #: 222
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 21:23:03 -0400
From: "Dwight Livingston" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] Re: Scaling issue in Illustrator

Larry

I find that Illustrator will scale PSD files, which are native Photoshop. I
don't know how easy it would be to create or manipulate those.

Dwight

  -----Original Message-----
  From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of Larry Fish
  Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2010 4:26 AM
  To: [email protected]
  Subject: RE: [compass-users] Re: Scaling issue in Illustrator

  Howard,

  Thanks for the feed back. It appears that Illustrator pays no attention to
the scaling information contained in a Windows Bitmap. That means it is
probably not worth the time to trying pursue this tactic. It probably will
ignore scaling information in other bitmap formats too.

  Larry

  From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Howard
  Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2010 7:17 PM
  To: [email protected]
  Subject: [compass-users] Re: Scaling issue in Illustrator

  It is
   on the main page, - the first window that you see when you first run the
   program. At the bottom of this First Window are two small number-boxes.
   These boxes allow you to control the scaling of the bitmap.
  
   One of the boxes displays English Units and one displays Metric Units.
When
   you read a bitmap into the Sketch Editor, it reads the scale from the
bitmap
   and displays the results in the boxes. You can change the value in the
boxes
   just before you save the file and it will put those values into the
file.

  Hi Larry
  Sorry for the delay - I am just now getting back to this.
  I do see the boxes you describe. I took my original morphed sketch, and
set this box to 70 and saved it. Then I opened it in illustrator. It opened
the same as the previous file with no adjustment in the box - too big in
other words.
  Since this was in jpeg, i tried again in tiff. Tiff did not read into
Illustrator at all. In bitmap, the file opened, but again there was no
change to the file at all.
  Where ever you are placing it in the file - it does not seem to make any
change to how illustrator opens it up...

  When I reset it in the edit mode it worked, but not out in the main screen
using the new boxes.

  I will still use it, just scale it to 72% in illustrator for now. If you
need more screen grabs or anything else just let me know.
  Thanks for all the help
  Howard

Larry
 
I find 
that Illustrator will scale PSD files, which are native Photoshop. I don't know 
how easy it would be to create or manipulate those.
 
Dwight
 
 
 
 

  -----Original Message-----From: 
  [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]On 
  Behalf Of Larry FishSent: Wednesday, September 15, 2010 4:26 
  AMTo: [email protected]: RE: 
  [compass-users] Re: Scaling issue in Illustrator  
  
  Howard,
  
  Thanks for the feed 
  back. It appears that Illustrator pays no attention to the scaling information 
  contained in a Windows Bitmap. That means it is probably not worth the time to 
  trying pursue this tactic. It probably will ignore scaling information in 
  other bitmap formats too.
  
  Larry
    
  From: 
  [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of HowardSent: Tuesday, September 14, 2010 7:17 
  PMTo: 
  [email protected]: [compass-users] Re: Scaling 
  issue in Illustrator
  
    
  
  It 
  is> on the main page, - the first window that you see when you first 
  run the> program. At the bottom of this First Window are two small 
  number-boxes.> These boxes allow you to control the scaling of the 
  bitmap.> > One of the boxes displays English Units and one 
  displays Metric Units. When> you read a bitmap into the Sketch Editor, 
  it reads the scale from the bitmap> and displays the results in the 
  boxes. You can change the value in the boxes> just before you save the 
  file and it will put those values into the file.Hi LarrySorry for 
  the delay - I am just now getting back to this.I do see the boxes you 
  describe. I took my original morphed sketch, and set this box to 70 and saved 
  it. Then I opened it in illustrator. It opened the same as the previous file 
  with no adjustment in the box - too big in other words.Since this was in 
  jpeg, i tried again in tiff. Tiff did not read into Illustrator at all. In 
  bitmap, the file opened, but again there was no change to the file at 
  all.Where ever you are placing it in the file - it does not seem to make 
  any change to how illustrator opens it up...When I reset it in the 
  edit mode it worked, but not out in the main screen using the new 
  boxes.I will still use it, just scale it to 72% in illustrator for 
  now. If you need more screen grabs or anything else just let me 
  know.Thanks for all the helpHoward


Messsage #: 223
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 08:06:14 +0100
From: "Paul Taylor" 
Subject: Exporting as a DXF File

Hello All,

I have been using Compass for many years and found that for my skill level
it has been very good and over the years I have advanced my knowledge and
produced some very satisfactory results. I have one survey with almost 110
km of data within it.

Recently I took part in a Caving Expedition to Montenegro and made use of
the Compass Programme to deal with the in field survey data processing.
Fortunately I had a copy on the Lap Top as the person who was to deal with
this work in another programme had a Memory Stick Failure so was not able to
do the work. This all worked very well.

On returning to the UK I was asked to produce some large scale line plots to
be sent to Egypt to be worked on. These I produced by Exporting the Plots as
DXF Files and put them into Corel Draw and then made them into pdf Files. Ok
I appreciate this may not be the most direct route but it worked and the
chap was able to easily read and print.

These were with NORTH straight up the page.

Due to the shape of the cave he has asked for some viewed at 285 deg in Plan
and Section. I have no difficulty in producing these in Viewer and then
making a new DXF File. However when they are imported into Corel Draw they
come in with the North Arrow straight up the page again.

I have to admit that I am not a computer wizard so I might be doing
something wrong but having achieved the first results without any problems I
am at a loss as to why it should not work the second time.

Any help would be much appreciated.

Best regards

Paul Taylor

Gloucester UK 

st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }


Messsage #: 224
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 02:17:54 -0600
From: "Larry Fish" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] Re: Scaling issue in Illustrator

Dwight,

Thanks, I'll look into that. The down side would be that it would only work
with Illustrator and not with Inkscape. Another option I've thought about is
a PDF file. I'll have to think about what the best approach might be.

Larry

  _____  

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Dwight Livingston
Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2010 7:23 PM
Subject: RE: [compass-users] Re: Scaling issue in Illustrator

Larry

I find that Illustrator will scale PSD files, which are native Photoshop. I
don't know how easy it would be to create or manipulate those.

Dwight

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]On
Behalf Of Larry Fish
Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2010 4:26 AM
Subject: RE: [compass-users] Re: Scaling issue in Illustrator

Howard,

Thanks for the feed back. It appears that Illustrator pays no attention to
the scaling information contained in a Windows Bitmap. That means it is
probably not worth the time to trying pursue this tactic. It probably will
ignore scaling information in other bitmap formats too.

Larry

  _____  

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Howard
Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2010 7:17 PM
Subject: [compass-users] Re: Scaling issue in Illustrator

It is
 on the main page, - the first window that you see when you first run the
 program. At the bottom of this First Window are two small number-boxes.
 These boxes allow you to control the scaling of the bitmap.
 
 One of the boxes displays English Units and one displays Metric Units.
When
 you read a bitmap into the Sketch Editor, it reads the scale from the
bitmap
 and displays the results in the boxes. You can change the value in the
boxes
 just before you save the file and it will put those values into the file.

Hi Larry
Sorry for the delay - I am just now getting back to this.
I do see the boxes you describe. I took my original morphed sketch, and set
this box to 70 and saved it. Then I opened it in illustrator. It opened the
same as the previous file with no adjustment in the box - too big in other
words.
Since this was in jpeg, i tried again in tiff. Tiff did not read into
Illustrator at all. In bitmap, the file opened, but again there was no
change to the file at all.
Where ever you are placing it in the file - it does not seem to make any
change to how illustrator opens it up...

When I reset it in the edit mode it worked, but not out in the main screen
using the new boxes.

I will still use it, just scale it to 72% in illustrator for now. If you
need more screen grabs or anything else just let me know.
Thanks for all the help
Howard

v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}


Messsage #: 225
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 02:15:14 -0600
From: "Larry Fish" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] Exporting as a DXF File

Hi Paul,

Compass does not export a DXF files with any rotation or scaling. In fact,
it exports that cave with the exact measurements that were found in the
cave. This is because the Autocad format is designed to represent real
objects ranging from mechanical drawings of machine parts to land surveys.
As a result, Autocad expects to be able to rotate, scale and manipulate the
file itself. I don't use Corel, and I only have 20 year-old version of the
program on my computer. Since Corel is a drawing program, it may not be able
to do these operations.

One option that you might want to look at is using the Compass SVG exporter.
SVG is a much better format for drawing programs. Looking at the Web I see
that Corel has been supporting the import of SVG files since version 10. The
SVG Exporter also allows you to preset the scale and rotate before you do
the export. It gives you a preview of what the cave will look like on paper.
It is also capable of taking an existing map and merging new or corrected
data into the SVG file. I don't know how well all this will work with Corel
because I'm mostly working with Adobe Illustrator and Inkscape.

You can get a copy of the SVG Exporter here:

http://www.fountainware.com/compass/download.htm

Larry

  _____  

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Paul Taylor
Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 1:06 AM
Subject: [compass-users] Exporting as a DXF File

Hello All,

I have been using Compass for many years and found that for my skill level
it has been very good and over the years I have advanced my knowledge and
produced some very satisfactory results. I have one survey with almost 110
km of data within it.

Recently I took part in a Caving Expedition to Montenegro and made use of
the Compass Programme to deal with the in field survey data processing.
Fortunately I had a copy on the Lap Top as the person who was to deal with
this work in another programme had a Memory Stick Failure so was not able to
do the work. This all worked very well.

On returning to the UK I was asked to produce some large scale line plots to
be sent to Egypt to be worked on. These I produced by Exporting the Plots as
DXF Files and put them into Corel Draw and then made them into pdf Files. Ok
I appreciate this may not be the most direct route but it worked and the
chap was able to easily read and print.

These were with NORTH straight up the page.

Due to the shape of the cave he has asked for some viewed at 285 deg in Plan
and Section. I have no difficulty in producing these in Viewer and then
making a new DXF File. However when they are imported into Corel Draw they
come in with the North Arrow straight up the page again.

I have to admit that I am not a computer wizard so I might be doing
something wrong but having achieved the first results without any problems I
am at a loss as to why it should not work the second time.

Any help would be much appreciated.

Best regards

Paul Taylor

Gloucester UK 

v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}

st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }


Messsage #: 226
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 07:01:04 -0000
From: [email protected]
Subject: question re find survey/station in viewer

Hello Larry and Everyone
I have placed a jpg in the files menu titled compass viewr that shows the viewer and a plot line with the Find Survey/Station tool box open.
When I highlight the survey I see dashed lines ( in amongst yellow in this example). what does it mean? Have I not done something in the data file.

this is a file where all the legs have a c in the flag column and the legs have been x'd out in older surveys right along this traverse.

They do only appear to be vertical lines but it is a high resolution image from the screen.
I have searched the groups messages to no avail.
Thanks for you help
cheers
Bob 


Messsage #: 227
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 05:07:46 -0600
From: "Larry Fish" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] question re find survey/station in viewer

Hi Bob,

Thanks for your question.

When you use the "Find Survey/Station" tool box, it highlights the Survey
you have selected. If you have selected a Station, it highlights the survey
that is associated with the Station.

The Survey is highlighted by draw a yellow line on top of the regular line.
The line is offset slightly so it will stand out. The interaction between
the highlight and the underlying lines can make it appear dotted depending
on things like the direction the line and the thickness of the plots lines
etc.

You haven't caused any damage to the file or surveys. The lines will
disappear when you close "Find Survey/Stations" tool box, unless you set the
"Leave Highlights On" checkbox.

Larry

  _____  

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of [email protected]
Sent: Monday, September 27, 2010 1:01 AM
Subject: [compass-users] question re find survey/station in viewer

Hello Larry and Everyone
I have placed a jpg in the files menu titled compass viewr that shows the
viewer and a plot line with the Find Survey/Station tool box open.
When I highlight the survey I see dashed lines ( in amongst yellow in this
example). what does it mean? Have I not done something in the data file.

this is a file where all the legs have a c in the flag column and the legs
have been x'd out in older surveys right along this traverse.

They do only appear to be vertical lines but it is a high resolution image
from the screen.
I have searched the groups messages to no avail.
Thanks for you help
cheers
Bob 

v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}


Messsage #: 228
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 05:30:56 -0000
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: question re find survey/station in viewer

hello Larry
thanks for the quick reply
Yes I was aware of all the info you sent but my highlighted slightly offset line was blue over the balck survey line with these yellow lines in between.

I had an idea that it may have been a duplicated leg from another survey that was not as yet x'd out.
thanks
Bob

 Hi Bob,
 
 Thanks for your question.
 
 When you use the "Find Survey/Station" tool box, it highlights the Survey
 you have selected. If you have selected a Station, it highlights the survey
 that is associated with the Station.
 
 The Survey is highlighted by draw a yellow line on top of the regular line.
 The line is offset slightly so it will stand out. The interaction between
 the highlight and the underlying lines can make it appear dotted depending
 on things like the direction the line and the thickness of the plots lines
 etc.
 
 You haven't caused any damage to the file or surveys. The lines will
 disappear when you close "Find Survey/Stations" tool box, unless you set the
 "Leave Highlights On" checkbox.
 
 Larry
 
   _____  
 
 From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
 On Behalf Of [email protected]
 Sent: Monday, September 27, 2010 1:01 AM
 To: [email protected]
 Subject: [compass-users] question re find survey/station in viewer
 
 Hello Larry and Everyone
 I have placed a jpg in the files menu titled compass viewr that shows the
 viewer and a plot line with the Find Survey/Station tool box open.
 When I highlight the survey I see dashed lines ( in amongst yellow in this
 example). what does it mean? Have I not done something in the data file.
 
 this is a file where all the legs have a c in the flag column and the legs
 have been x'd out in older surveys right along this traverse.
 
 They do only appear to be vertical lines but it is a high resolution image
 from the screen.
 I have searched the groups messages to no avail.
 Thanks for you help
 cheers
 Bob


Messsage #: 229
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 03:09:43 -0600
From: "Larry Fish" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] Re: question re find survey/station in viewer

Hi Bob,

I couldn't quite tell from the image you posted, but there might have been
some passage-wall lines being shown too. Depending on the scale of the map,
how you have the Viewer configured and how you compiled the file, the
passage walls may show up right next to the shot-line. The same thing could
happen if you have shot with no LRUD's entered.

Larry

  _____  

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of [email protected]
Sent: Monday, September 27, 2010 11:31 PM
Subject: [compass-users] Re: question re find survey/station in viewer

hello Larry
thanks for the quick reply
Yes I was aware of all the info you sent but my highlighted slightly offset
line was blue over the balck survey line with these yellow lines in between.

I had an idea that it may have been a duplicated leg from another survey
that was not as yet x'd out.
thanks
Bob

 , "Larry Fish"  wrote:

 Hi Bob,
 
 Thanks for your question.
 
 When you use the "Find Survey/Station" tool box, it highlights the Survey
 you have selected. If you have selected a Station, it highlights the
survey
 that is associated with the Station.
 
 The Survey is highlighted by draw a yellow line on top of the regular
line.
 The line is offset slightly so it will stand out. The interaction between
 the highlight and the underlying lines can make it appear dotted depending
 on things like the direction the line and the thickness of the plots lines
 etc.
 
 You haven't caused any damage to the file or surveys. The lines will
 disappear when you close "Find Survey/Stations" tool box, unless you set
the
 "Leave Highlights On" checkbox.
 
 Larry
 
 _____ 
 
 From: [email protected]

[mailto:[email protected]
 ]
 On Behalf Of [email protected]
 Sent: Monday, September 27, 2010 1:01 AM
 To: [email protected] 

 Subject: [compass-users] question re find survey/station in viewer
 
 Hello Larry and Everyone
 I have placed a jpg in the files menu titled compass viewr that shows the
 viewer and a plot line with the Find Survey/Station tool box open.
 When I highlight the survey I see dashed lines ( in amongst yellow in this
 example). what does it mean? Have I not done something in the data file.
 
 this is a file where all the legs have a c in the flag column and the legs
 have been x'd out in older surveys right along this traverse.
 
 They do only appear to be vertical lines but it is a high resolution image
 from the screen.
 I have searched the groups messages to no avail.
 Thanks for you help
 cheers
 Bob

v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}


Messsage #: 230
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 08:37:10 -0000
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: question re find survey/station in viewer

hello LArry
thanks, I will look into your suggestions
Bob

 Hi Bob,
 
 I couldn't quite tell from the image you posted, but there might have been
 some passage-wall lines being shown too. Depending on the scale of the map,
 how you have the Viewer configured and how you compiled the file, the
 passage walls may show up right next to the shot-line. The same thing could
 happen if you have shot with no LRUD's entered.
 
 Larry
 
   _____  
 
 From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
 On Behalf Of [email protected]
 Sent: Monday, September 27, 2010 11:31 PM
 To: [email protected]
 Subject: [compass-users] Re: question re find survey/station in viewer
 
 hello Larry
 thanks for the quick reply
 Yes I was aware of all the info you sent but my highlighted slightly offset
 line was blue over the balck survey line with these yellow lines in between.
 
 I had an idea that it may have been a duplicated leg from another survey
 that was not as yet x'd out.
 thanks
 Bob
 
 --- In [email protected]
  , "Larry Fish"  wrote:
 
  Hi Bob,
  
  Thanks for your question.
  
  When you use the "Find Survey/Station" tool box, it highlights the Survey
  you have selected. If you have selected a Station, it highlights the
 survey
  that is associated with the Station.
  
  The Survey is highlighted by draw a yellow line on top of the regular
 line.
  The line is offset slightly so it will stand out. The interaction between
  the highlight and the underlying lines can make it appear dotted depending
  on things like the direction the line and the thickness of the plots lines
  etc.
  
  You haven't caused any damage to the file or surveys. The lines will
  disappear when you close "Find Survey/Stations" tool box, unless you set
 the
  "Leave Highlights On" checkbox.
  
  Larry
  
  _____ 
  
  From: [email protected]
 
 [mailto:[email protected]
  ]
  On Behalf Of [email protected]
  Sent: Monday, September 27, 2010 1:01 AM
  To: [email protected] 
 
  Subject: [compass-users] question re find survey/station in viewer
  
  Hello Larry and Everyone
  I have placed a jpg in the files menu titled compass viewr that shows the
  viewer and a plot line with the Find Survey/Station tool box open.
  When I highlight the survey I see dashed lines ( in amongst yellow in this
  example). what does it mean? Have I not done something in the data file.
  
  this is a file where all the legs have a c in the flag column and the legs
  have been x'd out in older surveys right along this traverse.
  
  They do only appear to be vertical lines but it is a high resolution image
  from the screen.
  I have searched the groups messages to no avail.
  Thanks for you help
  cheers
  Bob


Messsage #: 231
Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 12:09:10 +0100
From: SN 
Subject: Incorrect scale bar in SVG Exporter

Hi!

I discovered the Compass SVG Exporter and decided to try it out.
Unfortunately, after many tries, I concluded that this program makes an
incorrect scale bar. The actual drawing scale, however, appears to be fine.
Did someone had the some problem?

I'm from Portugal, working in metric units, with the last versions of SVG
Exporter (v.1.2010.03.18) and Compass Viewer (v.5.10.5.31.268).

Regards

Manuel

Hi!I discovered the Compass SVG Exporter and decided to try it out. Unfortunately, after many tries, I concluded that this program makes an incorrect scale bar. The actual drawing scale, however, appears to be fine. Did someone had the some problem?
I'm from Portugal, working in metric units, with the last versions of SVG Exporter (v.1.2010.03.18) and Compass Viewer (v.5.10.5.31.268).RegardsManuel


Messsage #: 232
Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2010 03:54:43 -0600
From: "Larry Fish" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] Incorrect scale bar in SVG Exporter

Hi Manuel,

Thanks for your email. I've located the problem in the software and I should
have a fix for you in the next days or so. I just need a little time to work
on the problem and I should have some time tomorrow.

Larry Fish

  _____  

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of SN
Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2010 5:09 AM
Subject: [compass-users] Incorrect scale bar in SVG Exporter

Hi!

I discovered the Compass SVG Exporter and decided to try it out.
Unfortunately, after many tries, I concluded that this program makes an
incorrect scale bar. The actual drawing scale, however, appears to be fine.
Did someone had the some problem?

I'm from Portugal, working in metric units, with the last versions of SVG
Exporter (v.1.2010.03.18) and Compass Viewer (v.5.10.5.31.268).

Regards

Manuel

v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}

st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }


Messsage #: 233
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 09:14:18 +0100
From: SN 
Subject: Re: [compass-users] Incorrect scale bar in SVG Exporter

Thanks for your quick response!

Suggestion

Meanwhile, I don't know if this have been suggested already, but if SVG
Exporter could export more than one view simultaneously (plan and profile),
to the some drawing, it would be a great improvement.

Manuel

2010/10/4 Larry Fish 

  Hi Manuel,

 Thanks for your email. I've located the problem in the software and I
 should have a fix for you in the next days or so. I just need a little time
 to work on the problem and I should have some time tomorrow.

 Larry Fish

  ------------------------------

 *From:* [email protected] [mailto:
 [email protected]] *On Behalf Of *SN
 *Sent:* Sunday, October 03, 2010 5:09 AM
 *To:* [email protected]
 *Subject:* [compass-users] Incorrect scale bar in SVG Exporter

 Hi!

 I discovered the Compass SVG Exporter and decided to try it out.
 Unfortunately, after many tries, I concluded that this program makes an
 incorrect scale bar. The actual drawing scale, however, appears to be fine.
 Did someone had the some problem?

 I'm from Portugal, working in metric units, with the last versions of SVG
 Exporter (v.1.2010.03.18) and Compass Viewer (v.5.10.5.31.268).

 Regards

 Manuel

Thanks for your quick response!SuggestionMeanwhile, I don't know if this have been suggested already, but if SVG Exporter could export more than one view simultaneously (plan and profile), to the some drawing, it would be a great improvement.
Manuel2010/10/4 Larry Fish <[email protected]>

 

Hi Manuel,

 

Thanks for your email. I've located
the problem in the software and I should have a fix for you in the next days or
so. I just need a little time to work on the problem and I should have some
time tomorrow.

 

Larry Fish

 

From:
[email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of SN

Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2010
5:09 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [compass-users] Incorrect
scale bar in SVG Exporter

 

  

Hi!

I discovered the Compass SVG Exporter and decided to try it out. Unfortunately,
after many tries, I concluded that this program makes an incorrect scale bar.
The actual drawing scale, however, appears to be fine. Did someone had the some
problem?

I'm from Portugal,
working in metric units, with the last versions of SVG Exporter
(v.1.2010.03.18) and Compass Viewer (v.5.10.5.31.268).

Regards

Manuel


Messsage #: 234
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 02:37:35 -0600
From: "Larry Fish" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] Incorrect scale bar in SVG Exporter

Hi Manuel,

I've fixed the problem you described and have uploaded a new version here:

http://www.fountainware.com/compass/download.htm

I would like to be able to output both a plan and profile but it would be
quite difficult to do with all the other things the program does. This is
especially true with the morphing aspects. I'll put the idea on my list of
feature that people have requested and try to think of a way to do it.

Thank you very much for your feed back. It is very helpful to me because it
helps me find bugs.

Larry

  _____  

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of SN
Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2010 2:14 AM
Subject: Re: [compass-users] Incorrect scale bar in SVG Exporter

Thanks for your quick response!

Suggestion

Meanwhile, I don't know if this have been suggested already, but if SVG
Exporter could export more than one view simultaneously (plan and profile),
to the some drawing, it would be a great improvement.

Manuel

2010/10/4 Larry Fish 

Hi Manuel,

Thanks for your email. I've located the problem in the software and I should
have a fix for you in the next days or so. I just need a little time to work
on the problem and I should have some time tomorrow.

Larry Fish

  _____  

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of SN
Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2010 5:09 AM
Subject: [compass-users] Incorrect scale bar in SVG Exporter

Hi!

I discovered the Compass SVG Exporter and decided to try it out.
Unfortunately, after many tries, I concluded that this program makes an
incorrect scale bar. The actual drawing scale, however, appears to be fine.
Did someone had the some problem?

I'm from Portugal, working in metric units, with the last versions of SVG
Exporter (v.1.2010.03.18) and Compass Viewer (v.5.10.5.31.268).

Regards

Manuel

v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}

st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }


Messsage #: 235
Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2010 03:11:38 -0600
From: "Larry Fish" 
Subject: SVG Plugin Problems with Internet Explorer.

This little warning that might save people some time and aggravation.
PROBLEM. The "Adobe SVG Plugin" for webs browsers will cause Internet
Explorer 8 to hang, lockup and behave strangely.
BACKGROUND. Adobe has a plugin for Internet Browsers that allows it to
display SVG files and drawings. Since cave maps are often rendered as SVG
files, it is sometimes useful to install the plugin to view cave maps.
The plugin can be found here:
http://www.adobe.com/svg/viewer/install/
Adobe discontinued support for the Plugin on January 1st, 2009.
TRACKING DOWN THE PROBLEM. I had noticed the problem with Internet Explorer
for months. At first I thought it was a bug in Internet Explorer and I
assumed would be fixed with one of Microsoft's updates. When that didn't'
happen, I searched the internet for solutions, but nothing worked.
Finally, I discovered that if I turned off all plugins, the problem went
away. Since I had a couple dozen plugins, it took a several days of trial
and error before I found the culprit.
SOLUTIONS. The solution to the problem is to turn off the plugin until you
really need it. Here are instructions for disabling the plugin:
1. Run Internet Explorer. If you have the "Menu Bar" enabled in Internet
Explorer, select the "Tools - Manage Add Ons" option. If you don't have the
Menu Bar enabled, press the "Tools" button (it has a little "Gear" icon) and
select the "Manage Add-Ons" option.
2. In the Left Panel, under "Add-on Types," select "Toolbars and
Extensions."
3. In the list on the Right side, locate the "SVG Document" item. It will be
in a section labeled "Adobe Systems Incorporated." Highlight the item by
clicking on it and press the "Disable" button that appears in the lower
right corner. The plugin will be disabled and will stop causing problems.
RE-ENABLING THE PLUGIN. You can use the same process described above to
re-enable the SVG Viewer. You can do this any time you want to view an SVG
image or view a web page with SVG embedded in it.
OTHER PLUGINS. There are some other plugin available. I tested one and it
actually had more problems than the Adobe Plugin.
OTHER BROWSERS. Other browser like Opera, Safari, Google Chrome and Firefox
support SVG without the need for a plugin. The support is not always
complete. This link provides more information:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scalable_Vector_Graphics


Messsage #: 236
Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2010 03:18:14 -0600
From: "Larry Fish" 
Subject: SVG Plugin Problems with Internet Explorer.

Let's see if I can make that message a little more readable:

SVG Plugin Problems with Internet Explorer.

This little warning that might save people some time and aggravation.

PROBLEM. The "Adobe SVG Plugin" for webs browsers will cause Internet
Explorer 8 to hang, lockup and behave strangely

BACKGROUND. Adobe has a plugin for Internet Browsers that allows it to
display SVG files and drawings. Since cave maps are often rendered as SVG
files, it is sometimes useful to install the plugin to view cave maps.

The plugin can be found here:

http://www.adobe.com/svg/viewer/install/

Adobe discontinued support for the Plugin on January 1st, 2009.

TRACKING DOWN THE PROBLEM. I had noticed the problem with Internet Explorer
for months. At first I thought it was a bug in Internet Explorer and I
assumed would be fixed with one of Microsoft's updates. When that didn't'
happen, I searched the internet for solutions, but nothing worked.

Finally, I discovered that if I turned off all plugins, the problem went
away. Since I had a couple dozen plugins, it took a several day of trial and
error before I found the culprit.

SOLUTIONS. The solution to the problem is to turn off the plugin until you
really need it. Here are instructions for disabling the plugin:

1. Run Internet Explorer. If you have the "Menu Bar" enabled in Internet
Explorer, select the "Tools - Manage Add Ons" option. If you don't have the
Menu Bar enabled, press the "Tools" button (it has a little "Gear" icon) and
select the "Manage Add-Ons" option.

2. In the Left Panel, under "Add-on Types," select "Toolbars and
Extensions."

3. In the list on the Right side, locate the "SVG Document" item. It will be
in a section labeled "Adobe Systems Incorporated." Highlight the item by
clicking on it and press the "Disable" button that appears in the lower
right corner. The plugin will be disabled and will stop causing problems.

RE-ENABLING THE PLUGIN. You can use the same process described above to
re-enable the SVG Viewer. You can do this any time you want to view an SVG
image or view a web page with SVG embedded in it.

OTHER PLUGINS. There are some other plugin available. I tested one and it
actually had more problems than the Adobe Plugin. 

OTHER BROWSERS. Other browser like Opera, Safari, Google Chrome and Firefox
support SVG without the need for a plugin. The support is not always
complete. This link provides more information:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scalable_Vector_Graphics


Messsage #: 237
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2010 08:52:58 -0500
From: "Ken Bailey" 
Subject: Project Files

This may have been asked but I can't find it.  I have read the help about project files but I don't understand why I should use them or how to get all the different surveys to draw as one cave.  I have tried putting the survey from each weekend in as a separate file in a Project but I wind up just looking at each one individually.  I have just wound up going back to one survey file so I can look at the entire cave.  I have played with the wizard but I don't know how the whole project is supposed to look at the end so I really am just clicking and hoping and then not knowing what I have.  If someone could explain the big picture I would go back and try to use the project manager.  I like the idea that I can put the survey team in for that day but for now those records are in the field notes.
Thanks
Ken

Content-Description: HTML

This may have been asked but I can't find it.  I have read the help about project files but I don't understand why I should use them or how to get all the different surveys to draw as one cave.  I have tried putting the survey from each weekend in as a separate file in a Project but I wind up just looking at each one individually.  I have just wound up going back to one survey file so I can look at the entire cave.  I have played with the wizard but I don't know how the whole project is supposed to look at the end so I really am just clicking and hoping and then not knowing what I have.  If someone could explain the big picture I would go back and try to use the project manager.  I like the idea that I can put the survey team in for that day but for now those records are in the field notes.
Thanks
Ken


Messsage #: 238
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2010 08:37:08 -0800 (PST)
From: Tom 
Subject: Re: [compass-users] Project Files

you need to use Project Manager. Then add surveys to Project Manager. That is my understanding.

From: Ken Bailey 
Subject: [compass-users] Project Files
Date: Tuesday, December 21, 2010, 5:52 AM

This may have been asked but I can't find it.  I have read the help about project files but I don't understand why I should use them or how to get all the different surveys to draw as one cave.  I have tried putting the survey from each weekend in as a separate file in a Project but I wind up just looking at each one individually.  I have just wound up going back to one survey file so I can look at the entire cave.  I have played with the wizard but I don't know how the whole project is supposed to look at the end so I really am just clicking and hoping and then not knowing what I have.  If someone could explain the big picture I would go back and try to use the project manager.  I like the idea that I can put the survey team in for that day but for now those records are in the field notes.
Thanks
Ken

you need to use Project Manager. Then add surveys to Project Manager. That is my understanding.--- On Tue, 12/21/10, Ken Bailey <[email protected]> wrote:
From: Ken Bailey <[email protected]>Subject: [compass-users] Project FilesTo: [email protected]: Tuesday, December 21, 2010, 5:52 AM


Messsage #: 239
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2010 11:49:44 -0500
From: Tony Canike 
Subject: Re: [compass-users] Project Files

Ken,

I usually keep all the surveys for a whole cave in one .dat file and 
just use the project file (.mak) to set coordinates for the entrance(s) 
so I can plot in on Google Earth.  You don't need to use a project, but 
it does give you some advantages once you get deeper into your 
project.   When I was learning Compass I didn't use any projects at 
first, there was a lot to figure out and I took things one step at a time.

A "survey" is usually one day's effort for one team.  For each survey 
you can record the date, personnel, instrument corrections, declination, 
etc.      If there are two separate teams in one cave on one day using 
different instruments, I will record that data as two separate surveys.

A "file" (.dat file) contains one or more "surveys".   Often it will 
contain all the surveys (and thus all the survey data) for one cave.

A "project" (.mak file) uses one or more "files".   You don't need to 
always have a project, especially for simple caves.

I encourage you to record all the information about each survey team in 
the "survey" - it could be very useful to someone 20 years from now.  
This goes in the "heading" for each "survey" - take a look at the "Edit 
Heading" tab in the survey editor.

If your cave is large, you can organize the "surveys" into a few 
"files".  Each "file" might contain the surveys for separate sections of 
a large cave, or different levels of a cave so you can turn the various 
levels on and off in the plot.

If you have multiple caves near by each other, you can setup a "project" 
to link all the "files" together so you can see the relationships.

If you know the entrance coordinates, you can setup a "project" to set 
the entrance coordinates so you can export a KML file to plot on Google 
Earth (this is really cool and pretty easy!)

Hope that helps,

N%Х

PS  Larry does have a lot of great information on his website.  This 
page might help you:
     http://www.fountainware.com/compass/wdetails.htm

On 12/21/2010 8:52 AM, Ken Bailey ([email protected]) wrote

 This may have been asked but I can't find it.  I have read the help 
 about project files but I don't understand why I should use them or 
 how to get all the different surveys to draw as one cave.  I have 
 tried putting the survey from each weekend in as a separate file in a 
 Project but I wind up just looking at each one individually.  I have 
 just wound up going back to one survey file so I can look at the 
 entire cave.  I have played with the wizard but I don't know how the 
 whole project is supposed to look at the end so I really am just 
 clicking and hoping and then not knowing what I have.  If someone 
 could explain the big picture I would go back and try to use the 
 project manager.  I like the idea that I can put the survey team in 
 for that day but for now those records are in the field notes.
 Thanks
 Ken
  
    Ken, 
    
    I usually keep all the surveys for a whole cave in one .dat file and
    just use the project file (.mak) to set coordinates for the
    entrance(s) so I can plot in on Google Earth.  You don't need to use
    a project, but it does give you some advantages once you get deeper
    into your project.   When I was learning Compass I didn't use any
    projects at first, there was a lot to figure out and I took things
    one step at a time.
    
    A "survey" is usually one day's effort for one team.  For each
    survey you can record the date, personnel, instrument corrections,
    declination, etc.      If there are two separate teams in one cave
    on one day using different instruments, I will record that data as
    two separate surveys.
    
    A "file" (.dat file) contains one or more "surveys".   Often it will
    contain all the surveys (and thus all the survey data) for one
    cave.  
    
    A "project" (.mak file) uses one or more "files".   You don't need
    to always have a project, especially for simple caves.
    
    I encourage you to record all the information about each survey team
    in the "survey" - it could be very useful to someone 20 years from
    now.  This goes in the "heading" for each "survey" - take a look at
    the "Edit Heading" tab in the survey editor.
    
    If your cave is large, you can organize the "surveys" into a few
    "files".  Each "file" might contain the surveys for separate
    sections of a large cave, or different levels of a cave so you can
    turn the various levels on and off in the plot.
    
    If you have multiple caves near by each other, you can setup a
    "project" to link all the "files" together so you can see the
    relationships.  
    
    If you know the entrance coordinates, you can setup a "project" to
    set the entrance coordinates so you can export a KML file to plot on
    Google Earth (this is really cool and pretty easy!)
    
    Hope that helps,
    
    Tony
    
    PS  Larry does have a lot of great information on his website.  This
    page might help you:
        http://www.fountainware.com/compass/wdetails.htm
    
    On 12/21/2010 8:52 AM, Ken Bailey ([email protected]) wrote
    
       
            
            This may have been asked but I can't find it.  I have
              read the help about project files but I don't understand
              why I should use them or how to get all the different
              surveys to draw as one cave.  I have tried putting the
              survey from each weekend in as a separate file in a
              Project but I wind up just looking at each one
              individually.  I have just wound up going back to one
              survey file so I can look at the entire cave.  I have
              played with the wizard but I don't know how the whole
              project is supposed to look at the end so I really am just
              clicking and hoping and then not knowing what I have.  If
              someone could explain the big picture I would go back and
              try to use the project manager.  I like the idea that I
              can put the survey team in for that day but for now those
              records are in the field notes.
            Thanks
            Ken


Messsage #: 240
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2010 15:58:32 -0700
From: "Larry Fish" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] Project Files

Hi Ken,

Thanks for your questions. There have already been some good answers. I will
add a few more things.
 This may have been asked but I can't find it. I have read
 the help about project files but I don't understand why I
 should use them or how to get all the different surveys to
 draw as one cave.

Project files are a way organize a cave or a cave system. They don't
actually contain any survey data. They only contain a list files that will
be compiled together. You use them in two situations:

I. CAVE SYSTEMS. Projects are use to organize multiple caves into a system.
For example, we have a caving area here in Colorado called Williams Canyon.
There are about 20 or 30 caves in and around the Canyon. With a project
file, I can create a combined plot that includes all the caves in the
canyon. I can also create a different project files that only parts of the
canyon. For example, I have one that contains the caves on the East side the
canyon and another that contains the caves on the West side. I probably have
10 different project files for Williams Canyon, each one groups a different
combination of caves together. The important thing to understand is that
each cave can be included more than one Project File. 

II. LARGE CAVES. When caves get beyond a certain size, it is awkward to have
them in a single file. For example, Lechuguilla is large enough that it has
been divided up into seven files, where each contains a different region of
the cave. Lechuguilla has the "Entrance," "Near East," "Far East," "South,"
etc. The project file is then used to put all those pieces together. 

You don't need project files for small to medium caves. There is really no
limit to the size of a DAT file, but most people start splitting the cave up
into separate file when it reaches about 20 to 50 miles in length.

Although Compass will handle it, I would not put each survey into a separate
file. That clutters up the disk and makes it hard to do certain things.

III. GEO-REFERENCING. You can only tie a cave to Longitude/Latitude or UTM
coordinates through a survey project.

 I have tried putting the survey from each weekend in as a
 separate file in a Project but I wind up just looking at
 each one individually. I have just wound up going back to
 one survey file so I can look at the entire cave.

Generally, you don't want to put a single weekend's worth of data in a
separate file. In general, you want to keep between 20 and 50 miles of cave
in a single file. 

 I have played with the wizard but I don't know how the whole
 project is supposed to look at the end so I really am just
 clicking and hoping and then not knowing what I have.

When you first start out with a new cave, you probably don't want to create
a project. You just want an empty survey file to add data to. So, to start
with, you would select the "File - Create New Survey File." Then you would
keep adding data to that same file until it reaches about 20 to 50 miles of
cave.

You will only need a Project at the point that you are ready to: 1)
Geo-reference, 2) breakup the cave or 3) group several caves together into a
system. At that point you use the Wizard:

The Wizard will ask you which files you want in the project. You just keep
adding files until you have everything you need. Even after you have created
a project, you can still work the individual files by themselves. You only
need the project when you want to view all the files together.

The only really tricky part comes in when you group together separate caves
that have duplicate station names. That's where the "linking" process comes
in. I won't describe it right now because you probably won't be needing it
for a while and it is confusing.

Let me know if you have more questions.

Larry

________________________________________
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Ken Bailey
Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2010 6:53 AM
Subject: [compass-users] Project Files

  
This may have been asked but I can't find it.  I have read the help about
project files but I don't understand why I should use them or how to get all
the different surveys to draw as one cave.  I have tried putting the survey
from each weekend in as a separate file in a Project but I wind up just
looking at each one individually.  I have just wound up going back to one
survey file so I can look at the entire cave.  I have played with the wizard
but I don't know how the whole project is supposed to look at the end so I
really am just clicking and hoping and then not knowing what I have.  If
someone could explain the big picture I would go back and try to use the
project manager.  I like the idea that I can put the survey team in for that
day but for now those records are in the field notes.
Thanks
Ken


Messsage #: 241
Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2010 19:48:59 -0000
From: "Tom" 
Subject: Re: Project Files

I have a project file for Bigfoot Cave and it is divided into about 6 surveys. The one survey won't open, it gives a "dat file too big". Bigfoot is about 16 miles long.

 Hi Ken,
 
 Thanks for your questions. There have already been some good answers. I will
 add a few more things.
  This may have been asked but I can't find it. I have read
  the help about project files but I don't understand why I
  should use them or how to get all the different surveys to
  draw as one cave.
 
 Project files are a way organize a cave or a cave system. They don't
 actually contain any survey data. They only contain a list files that will
 be compiled together. You use them in two situations:
 
 I. CAVE SYSTEMS. Projects are use to organize multiple caves into a system.
 For example, we have a caving area here in Colorado called Williams Canyon.
 There are about 20 or 30 caves in and around the Canyon. With a project
 file, I can create a combined plot that includes all the caves in the
 canyon. I can also create a different project files that only parts of the
 canyon. For example, I have one that contains the caves on the East side the
 canyon and another that contains the caves on the West side. I probably have
 10 different project files for Williams Canyon, each one groups a different
 combination of caves together. The important thing to understand is that
 each cave can be included more than one Project File. 
 
 II. LARGE CAVES. When caves get beyond a certain size, it is awkward to have
 them in a single file. For example, Lechuguilla is large enough that it has
 been divided up into seven files, where each contains a different region of
 the cave. Lechuguilla has the "Entrance," "Near East," "Far East," "South,"
 etc. The project file is then used to put all those pieces together. 
 
 You don't need project files for small to medium caves. There is really no
 limit to the size of a DAT file, but most people start splitting the cave up
 into separate file when it reaches about 20 to 50 miles in length.
 
 Although Compass will handle it, I would not put each survey into a separate
 file. That clutters up the disk and makes it hard to do certain things.
 
 III. GEO-REFERENCING. You can only tie a cave to Longitude/Latitude or UTM
 coordinates through a survey project.
 
  I have tried putting the survey from each weekend in as a
  separate file in a Project but I wind up just looking at
  each one individually. I have just wound up going back to
  one survey file so I can look at the entire cave.
 
 Generally, you don't want to put a single weekend's worth of data in a
 separate file. In general, you want to keep between 20 and 50 miles of cave
 in a single file. 
 
  I have played with the wizard but I don't know how the whole
  project is supposed to look at the end so I really am just
  clicking and hoping and then not knowing what I have.
 
 When you first start out with a new cave, you probably don't want to create
 a project. You just want an empty survey file to add data to. So, to start
 with, you would select the "File - Create New Survey File." Then you would
 keep adding data to that same file until it reaches about 20 to 50 miles of
 cave.
 
 You will only need a Project at the point that you are ready to: 1)
 Geo-reference, 2) breakup the cave or 3) group several caves together into a
 system. At that point you use the Wizard:
 
 The Wizard will ask you which files you want in the project. You just keep
 adding files until you have everything you need. Even after you have created
 a project, you can still work the individual files by themselves. You only
 need the project when you want to view all the files together.
 
 The only really tricky part comes in when you group together separate caves
 that have duplicate station names. That's where the "linking" process comes
 in. I won't describe it right now because you probably won't be needing it
 for a while and it is confusing.
 
 Let me know if you have more questions.
 
 Larry
 
 ________________________________________
 From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
 On Behalf Of Ken Bailey
 Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2010 6:53 AM
 To: [email protected]
 Subject: [compass-users] Project Files
 
   
 This may have been asked but I can't find it.  I have read the help about
 project files but I don't understand why I should use them or how to get all
 the different surveys to draw as one cave.  I have tried putting the survey
 from each weekend in as a separate file in a Project but I wind up just
 looking at each one individually.  I have just wound up going back to one
 survey file so I can look at the entire cave.  I have played with the wizard
 but I don't know how the whole project is supposed to look at the end so I
 really am just clicking and hoping and then not knowing what I have.  If
 someone could explain the big picture I would go back and try to use the
 project manager.  I like the idea that I can put the survey team in for that
 day but for now those records are in the field notes.
 Thanks
 Ken


Messsage #: 242
Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2010 14:01:49 -0700
From: "Larry Fish" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] Re: Project Files

Hi Tom,

You are probably getting that message because the file is corrupted. Faulty
data in a file can cause Compass to read past the end of the file or do
other things that can cause this kind of message.  There are lots of caves
in Compass much bigger than 16 miles, so size is not the issue. Problems
like this are usually caused by someone editing the file with a Text editor.
Some text editors will leave extra characters in the file or will remove
characters that Compass needs find the beginnings of surveys. The problem
can also be cause by disk data corruption.

I can easily fix any file problems like this, so your best choice is
probably to send me a copy of the file.  I will send you an email directly
to your private email address with my private email address and
instructions. I will be using the email address that is attached to your
Yahoo account. Let me know through Yahoo if you don't receive my private
email.

Larry

  _____  

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Tom
Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 12:49 PM
Subject: [compass-users] Re: Project Files

I have a project file for Bigfoot Cave and it is divided into about 6
surveys. The one survey won't open, it gives a "dat file too big". Bigfoot
is about 16 miles long.

 , "Larry Fish"  wrote:

 Hi Ken,
 
 Thanks for your questions. There have already been some good answers. I
will
 add a few more things.
  This may have been asked but I can't find it. I have read
  the help about project files but I don't understand why I
  should use them or how to get all the different surveys to
  draw as one cave.
 
 Project files are a way organize a cave or a cave system. They don't
 actually contain any survey data. They only contain a list files that will
 be compiled together. You use them in two situations:
 
 I. CAVE SYSTEMS. Projects are use to organize multiple caves into a
system.
 For example, we have a caving area here in Colorado called Williams
Canyon.
 There are about 20 or 30 caves in and around the Canyon. With a project
 file, I can create a combined plot that includes all the caves in the
 canyon. I can also create a different project files that only parts of the
 canyon. For example, I have one that contains the caves on the East side
the
 canyon and another that contains the caves on the West side. I probably
have
 10 different project files for Williams Canyon, each one groups a
different
 combination of caves together. The important thing to understand is that
 each cave can be included more than one Project File. 
 
 II. LARGE CAVES. When caves get beyond a certain size, it is awkward to
have
 them in a single file. For example, Lechuguilla is large enough that it
has
 been divided up into seven files, where each contains a different region
of
 the cave. Lechuguilla has the "Entrance," "Near East," "Far East,"
"South,"
 etc. The project file is then used to put all those pieces together. 
 
 You don't need project files for small to medium caves. There is really no
 limit to the size of a DAT file, but most people start splitting the cave
up
 into separate file when it reaches about 20 to 50 miles in length.
 
 Although Compass will handle it, I would not put each survey into a
separate
 file. That clutters up the disk and makes it hard to do certain things.
 
 III. GEO-REFERENCING. You can only tie a cave to Longitude/Latitude or UTM
 coordinates through a survey project.
 
  I have tried putting the survey from each weekend in as a
  separate file in a Project but I wind up just looking at
  each one individually. I have just wound up going back to
  one survey file so I can look at the entire cave.
 
 Generally, you don't want to put a single weekend's worth of data in a
 separate file. In general, you want to keep between 20 and 50 miles of
cave
 in a single file. 
 
  I have played with the wizard but I don't know how the whole
  project is supposed to look at the end so I really am just
  clicking and hoping and then not knowing what I have.
 
 When you first start out with a new cave, you probably don't want to
create
 a project. You just want an empty survey file to add data to. So, to start
 with, you would select the "File - Create New Survey File." Then you
would
 keep adding data to that same file until it reaches about 20 to 50 miles
of
 cave.
 
 You will only need a Project at the point that you are ready to: 1)
 Geo-reference, 2) breakup the cave or 3) group several caves together into
a
 system. At that point you use the Wizard:
 
 The Wizard will ask you which files you want in the project. You just keep
 adding files until you have everything you need. Even after you have
created
 a project, you can still work the individual files by themselves. You only
 need the project when you want to view all the files together.
 
 The only really tricky part comes in when you group together separate
caves
 that have duplicate station names. That's where the "linking" process
comes
 in. I won't describe it right now because you probably won't be needing it
 for a while and it is confusing.
 
 Let me know if you have more questions.
 
 Larry
 
 ________________________________________
 From: [email protected]

[mailto:[email protected]
 ]
 On Behalf Of Ken Bailey
 Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2010 6:53 AM
 To: [email protected] 

 Subject: [compass-users] Project Files
   
 This may have been asked but I can't find it.  I have read the help about
 project files but I don't understand why I should use them or how to get
all
 the different surveys to draw as one cave.  I have tried putting the
survey
 from each weekend in as a separate file in a Project but I wind up just
 looking at each one individually.  I have just wound up going back to one
 survey file so I can look at the entire cave.  I have played with the
wizard
 but I don't know how the whole project is supposed to look at the end so I
 really am just clicking and hoping and then not knowing what I have.  If
 someone could explain the big picture I would go back and try to use the
 project manager.  I like the idea that I can put the survey team in for
that
 day but for now those records are in the field notes.
 Thanks
 Ken

v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}

st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }


Messsage #: 243
Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2010 10:31:55 -0500
From: "Ken Bailey" 
Subject: [compass-users] Re: Project Files

Larry,
Thanks for taking the time to explain this.  I guess what is confusing me then is that I have a place to enter the survey team and the particulars only once on a survey and the team changes from trip to trip so that information stays in my notes while the original compass survey entry just gets further out of date.  I guess what I had envisioned was the project allowing me to enter each trip's team information after each trip and keeping stats on how much help and where in the cave people gave their time.  Maybe there is a way to do what I am wanting and I just can't find it.  I have only gotten serious about using the software this summer so there is a lot I don't know and I can't seem to find it in the help.  What I had done is break up every survey trip into a multiple surveys so I could enter the team data and then try to get a project to draw them together.  I wound up having to put it all in one survey file to draw the cave which it looks like the way to do it.  The cave I am working on is about 2.5 miles long so one file will be enough but I am having to keep a second file of who did what and when and how much.  I have to say my field work has improved greatly with the software keeping more honest I am wanting to go back and redo some of my old work.  
Thanks for the software and the explanation.  I am having people in my grotto ask me to teach them how to use the software and I am far from an expert so I will probably have more dumb questions in the future but I promise only after I have read the help.
Ken

 "Tom"  12/29/2010 2:48 PM 
  
I have a project file for Bigfoot Cave and it is divided into about 6 surveys. The one survey won't open, it gives a "dat file too big". Bigfoot is about 16 miles long.

--- In [email protected], "Larry Fish"  wrote:

 Hi Ken,
 
 Thanks for your questions. There have already been some good answers. I will
 add a few more things.
  This may have been asked but I can't find it. I have read
  the help about project files but I don't understand why I
  should use them or how to get all the different surveys to
  draw as one cave.
 
 Project files are a way organize a cave or a cave system. They don't
 actually contain any survey data. They only contain a list files that will
 be compiled together. You use them in two situations:
 
 I. CAVE SYSTEMS. Projects are use to organize multiple caves into a system.
 For example, we have a caving area here in Colorado called Williams Canyon.
 There are about 20 or 30 caves in and around the Canyon. With a project
 file, I can create a combined plot that includes all the caves in the
 canyon. I can also create a different project files that only parts of the
 canyon. For example, I have one that contains the caves on the East side the
 canyon and another that contains the caves on the West side. I probably have
 10 different project files for Williams Canyon, each one groups a different
 combination of caves together. The important thing to understand is that
 each cave can be included more than one Project File. 
 
 II. LARGE CAVES. When caves get beyond a certain size, it is awkward to have
 them in a single file. For example, Lechuguilla is large enough that it has
 been divided up into seven files, where each contains a different region of
 the cave. Lechuguilla has the "Entrance," "Near East," "Far East," "South,"
 etc. The project file is then used to put all those pieces together. 
 
 You don't need project files for small to medium caves. There is really no
 limit to the size of a DAT file, but most people start splitting the cave up
 into separate file when it reaches about 20 to 50 miles in length.
 
 Although Compass will handle it, I would not put each survey into a separate
 file. That clutters up the disk and makes it hard to do certain things.
 
 III. GEO-REFERENCING. You can only tie a cave to Longitude/Latitude or UTM
 coordinates through a survey project.
 
  I have tried putting the survey from each weekend in as a
  separate file in a Project but I wind up just looking at
  each one individually. I have just wound up going back to
  one survey file so I can look at the entire cave.
 
 Generally, you don't want to put a single weekend's worth of data in a
 separate file. In general, you want to keep between 20 and 50 miles of cave
 in a single file. 
 
  I have played with the wizard but I don't know how the whole
  project is supposed to look at the end so I really am just
  clicking and hoping and then not knowing what I have.
 
 When you first start out with a new cave, you probably don't want to create
 a project. You just want an empty survey file to add data to. So, to start
 with, you would select the "File - Create New Survey File." Then you would
 keep adding data to that same file until it reaches about 20 to 50 miles of
 cave.
 
 You will only need a Project at the point that you are ready to: 1)
 Geo-reference, 2) breakup the cave or 3) group several caves together into a
 system. At that point you use the Wizard:
 
 The Wizard will ask you which files you want in the project. You just keep
 adding files until you have everything you need. Even after you have created
 a project, you can still work the individual files by themselves. You only
 need the project when you want to view all the files together.
 
 The only really tricky part comes in when you group together separate caves
 that have duplicate station names. That's where the "linking" process comes
 in. I won't describe it right now because you probably won't be needing it
 for a while and it is confusing.
 
 Let me know if you have more questions.
 
 Larry
 
 ________________________________________
 From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
 On Behalf Of Ken Bailey
 Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2010 6:53 AM
 To: [email protected]
 Subject: [compass-users] Project Files
 
 This may have been asked but I can't find it. I have read the help about
 project files but I don't understand why I should use them or how to get all
 the different surveys to draw as one cave. I have tried putting the survey
 from each weekend in as a separate file in a Project but I wind up just
 looking at each one individually. I have just wound up going back to one
 survey file so I can look at the entire cave. I have played with the wizard
 but I don't know how the whole project is supposed to look at the end so I
 really am just clicking and hoping and then not knowing what I have. If
 someone could explain the big picture I would go back and try to use the
 project manager. I like the idea that I can put the survey team in for that
 day but for now those records are in the field notes.
 Thanks
 Ken

Larry,
Thanks for taking the time to explain this.  I guess what is confusing me then is that I have a place to enter the survey team and the particulars only once on a survey and the team changes from trip to trip so that information stays in my notes while the original compass survey entry just gets further out of date.  I guess what I had envisioned was the project allowing me to enter each trip's team information after each trip and keeping stats on how much help and where in the cave people gave their time.  Maybe there is a way to do what I am wanting and I just can't find it.  I have only gotten serious about using the software this summer so there is a lot I don't know and I can't seem to find it in the help.  What I had done is break up every survey trip into a multiple surveys so I could enter the team data and then try to get a project to draw them together.  I wound up having to put it all in one survey file to draw the cave which it looks like the way to do it.  The cave I am working on is about 2.5 miles long so one file will be enough but I am having to keep a second file of who did what and when and how much.  I have to say my field work has improved greatly with the software keeping more honest I am wanting to go back and redo some of my old work.  
Thanks for the software and the explanation.  I am having people in my grotto ask me to teach them how to use the software and I am far from an expert so I will probably have more dumb questions in the future but I promise only after I have read the help.
Ken>>> "Tom" <[email protected]> 12/29/2010 2:48 PM >>>  

I have a project file for Bigfoot Cave and it is divided into about 6 surveys. The one survey won't open, it gives a "dat file too big". Bigfoot is about 16 miles long.--- In [email protected], "Larry Fish" <[email protected]> wrote:>> Hi Ken,> > Thanks for your questions. There have already been some good answers. I will> add a few more things.> > This may have been asked but I can't find it. I have read> > the help about project files but I don't understand why I> > should use them or how to get all the different surveys to> > draw as one cave.> > Project files are a way organize a cave or a cave system. They don't> actually contain any survey data. They only contain a list files that will> be compiled together. You use them in two situations:> > I. CAVE SYSTEMS. Projects are use to organize multiple caves into a system.> For example, we have a caving area here in Colorado called Williams Canyon.> There are about 20 or 30 caves in and around the Canyon. With a project> file, I can create a combined plot that includes all the caves in the> canyon. I can also create a different project files that only parts of the> canyon. For example, I have one that contains the caves on the East side the> canyon and another that contains the caves on the West side. I probably have> 10 different project files for Williams Canyon, each one groups a different> combination of caves together. The important thing to understand is that> each cave can be included more than one Project File. > > II. LARGE CAVES. When caves get beyond a certain size, it is awkward to have> them in a single file. For example, Lechuguilla is large enough that it has> been divided up into seven files, where each contains a different region of> the cave. Lechuguilla has the "Entrance," "Near East," "Far East," "South,"> etc. The project file is then used to put all those pieces together. > > You don't need project files for small to medium caves. There is really no> limit to the size of a DAT file, but most people start splitting the cave up> into separate file when it reaches about 20 to 50 miles in length.> > Although Compass will handle it, I would not put each survey into a separate> file. That clutters up the disk and makes it hard to do certain things.> > III. GEO-REFERENCING. You can only tie a cave to Longitude/Latitude or UTM> coordinates through a survey project.> > > I have tried putting the survey from each weekend in as a> > separate file in a Project but I wind up just looking at> > each one individually. I have just wound up going back to> > one survey file so I can look at the entire cave.> > Generally, you don't want to put a single weekend's worth of data in a> separate file. In general, you want to keep between 20 and 50 miles of cave> in a single file. > > > I have played with the wizard but I don't know how the whole> > project is supposed to look at the end so I really am just> > clicking and hoping and then not knowing what I have.> > When you first start out with a new cave, you probably don't want to create> a project. You just want an empty survey file to add data to. So, to start> with, you would select the "File -> Create New Survey File." Then you would> keep adding data to that same file until it reaches about 20 to 50 miles of> cave.> > You will only need a Project at the point that you are ready to: 1)> Geo-reference, 2) breakup the cave or 3) group several caves together into a> system. At that point you use the Wizard:> > The Wizard will ask you which files you want in the project. You just keep> adding files until you have everything you need. Even after you have created> a project, you can still work the individual files by themselves. You only> need the project when you want to view all the files together.> > The only really tricky part comes in when you group together separate caves> that have duplicate station names. That's where the "linking" process comes> in. I won't describe it right now because you probably won't be needing it> for a while and it is confusing.> > Let me know if you have more questions.> > Larry> > ________________________________________> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]> On Behalf Of Ken Bailey> Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2010 6:53 AM> To: [email protected]> Subject: [compass-users] Project Files> > > This may have been asked but I can't find it. I have read the help about> project files but I don't understand why I should use them or how to get all> the different surveys to draw as one cave. I have tried putting the survey> from each weekend in as a separate file in a Project but I wind up just> looking at each one individually. I have just wound up going back to one> survey file so I can look at the entire cave. I have played with the wizard> but I don't know how the whole project is supposed to look at the end so I> really am just clicking and hoping and then not knowing what I have. If> someone could explain the big picture I would go back and try to use the> project manager. I like the idea that I can put the survey team in for that> day but for now those records are in the field notes.> Thanks> Ken>mVoXзAXзA


Messsage #: 244
Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2010 18:53:52 +0100
From: "Paul De Bie" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] Re: Project Files

Hi Ken,
 
Everything is very well explained in the Help. The Help in Compass is outstanding.
 
But to make a few things clear.
A DAT file is not a survey. 
A DAT files is a collection of surveys (sessions or trips, call it as you like). For each survey you
can enter date, team, some remarks, units, magnetic deviation etc. 
A DAT file is most of the time 1 cave. 
If you have different caves in the same area, you might want to group them together so you can plot
them together or export them to Google Earth or so. That's where you will need a Project (MAK file).
You can then fix the entrance (or better: a particular shot) by entering their UTM coordinates in a
so called "DAT File Node". 
 
I will send you a project (MAK) that consists out of a handful of caves (so multiple DAT files) and
in each DAT file there is a bunch of surveys. 
Play with it and things will become clear I hope. 
Here's a screenprint of the project:
 
The first DAT file has got another icon (the purple book) because it is a file node. If you
doubleclick it, you will open a dialog in which you will see the fixed UTM coordinates for the cave
entrances.
 
HTH

Paul De Bie
http://www.scavalon.be  
http://scavalon.blogspot.com  

  _____  

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ken Bailey
Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2010 4:32 PM
Subject: [compass-users] Re: Project Files

Larry,
Thanks for taking the time to explain this.  I guess what is confusing me then is that I have a
place to enter the survey team and the particulars only once on a survey and the team changes from
trip to trip so that information stays in my notes while the original compass survey entry just gets
further out of date.  I guess what I had envisioned was the project allowing me to enter each trip's
team information after each trip and keeping stats on how much help and where in the cave people
gave their time.  Maybe there is a way to do what I am wanting and I just can't find it.  I have
only gotten serious about using the software this summer so there is a lot I don't know and I can't
seem to find it in the help.  What I had done is break up every survey trip into a multiple surveys
so I could enter the team data and then try to get a project to draw them together.  I wound up
having to put it all in one survey file to draw the cave which it looks like the way to do it.  The
cave I am working on is about 2.5 miles long so one file will be enough but I am having to keep a
second file of who did what and when and how much.  I have to say my field work has improved greatly
with the software keeping more honest I am wanting to go back and redo some of my old work.  
Thanks for the software and the explanation.  I am having people in my grotto ask me to teach them
how to use the software and I am far from an expert so I will probably have more dumb questions in
the future but I promise only after I have read the help.
Ken

 "Tom"  12/29/2010 2:48 PM 

I have a project file for Bigfoot Cave and it is divided into about 6 surveys. The one survey won't
open, it gives a "dat file too big". Bigfoot is about 16 miles long.

 Hi Ken,
 
 Thanks for your questions. There have already been some good answers. I will
 add a few more things.
  This may have been asked but I can't find it. I have read
  the help about project files but I don't understand why I
  should use them or how to get all the different surveys to
  draw as one cave.
 
 Project files are a way organize a cave or a cave system. They don't
 actually contain any survey data. They only contain a list files that will
 be compiled together. You use them in two situations:
 
 I. CAVE SYSTEMS. Projects are use to organize multiple caves into a system.
 For example, we have a caving area here in Colorado called Williams Canyon.
 There are about 20 or 30 caves in and around the Canyon. With a project
 file, I can create a combined plot that includes all the caves in the
 canyon. I can also create a different project files that only parts of the
 canyon. For example, I have one that contains the caves on the East side the
 canyon and another that contains the caves on the West side. I probably have
 10 different project files for Williams Canyon, each one groups a different
 combination of caves together. The important thing to understand is that
 each cave can be included more than one Project File. 
 
 II. LARGE CAVES. When caves get beyond a certain size, it is awkward to have
 them in a single file. For example, Lechuguilla is large enough that it has
 been divided up into seven files, where each contains a different region of
 the cave. Lechuguilla has the "Entrance," "Near East," "Far East," "South,"
 etc. The project file is then used to put all those pieces together. 
 
 You don't need project files for small to medium caves. There is really no
 limit to the size of a DAT file, but most people start splitting the cave up
 into separate file when it reaches about 20 to 50 miles in length.
 
 Although Compass will handle it, I would not put each survey into a separate
 file. That clutters up the disk and makes it hard to do certain things.
 
 III. GEO-REFERENCING. You can only tie a cave to Longitude/Latitude or UTM
 coordinates through a survey project.
 
  I have tried putting the survey from each weekend in as a
  separate file in a Project but I wind up just looking at
  each one individually. I have just wound up going back to
  one survey file so I can look at the entire cave.
 
 Generally, you don't want to put a single weekend's worth of data in a
 separate file. In general, you want to keep between 20 and 50 miles of cave
 in a single file. 
 
  I have played with the wizard but I don't know how the whole
  project is supposed to look at the end so I really am just
  clicking and hoping and then not knowing what I have.
 
 When you first start out with a new cave, you probably don't want to create
 a project. You just want an empty survey file to add data to. So, to start
 with, you would select the "File - Create New Survey File." Then you would
 keep adding data to that same file until it reaches about 20 to 50 miles of
 cave.
 
 You will only need a Project at the point that you are ready to: 1)
 Geo-reference, 2) breakup the cave or 3) group several caves together into a
 system. At that point you use the Wizard:
 
 The Wizard will ask you which files you want in the project. You just keep
 adding files until you have everything you need. Even after you have created
 a project, you can still work the individual files by themselves. You only
 need the project when you want to view all the files together.
 
 The only really tricky part comes in when you group together separate caves
 that have duplicate station names. That's where the "linking" process comes
 in. I won't describe it right now because you probably won't be needing it
 for a while and it is confusing.
 
 Let me know if you have more questions.
 
 Larry
 
 ________________________________________
 From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
 On Behalf Of Ken Bailey
 Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2010 6:53 AM
 To: [email protected]
 Subject: [compass-users] Project Files
 
 This may have been asked but I can't find it. I have read the help about
 project files but I don't understand why I should use them or how to get all
 the different surveys to draw as one cave. I have tried putting the survey
 from each weekend in as a separate file in a Project but I wind up just
 looking at each one individually. I have just wound up going back to one
 survey file so I can look at the entire cave. I have played with the wizard
 but I don't know how the whole project is supposed to look at the end so I
 really am just clicking and hoping and then not knowing what I have. If
 someone could explain the big picture I would go back and try to use the
 project manager. I like the idea that I can put the survey team in for that
 day but for now those records are in the field notes.
 Thanks
 Ken

Hi 
Ken,
 
Everything is very well explained in the Help. The Help in 
Compass is outstanding.
 
But 
to make a few things clear.
A DAT file is not a 
survey. 
A DAT files is a 
collection of surveys (sessions or trips, call it as you like). For each survey 
you can enter date, team, some remarks, units, magnetic deviation etc. 

A 
DAT file is most of the time 1 cave. 
If you have different 
caves in the same area, you might want to group them together so you can plot 
them together or export them to Google Earth or so. That's where you will need a 
Project (MAK file).  You can then fix the entrance (or better: a particular 
shot) by entering their UTM coordinates in a so called "DAT File Node". 

 
I 
will send you a project (MAK) that consists out of a handful of caves (so 
multiple DAT files) and in each DAT file there is a bunch of surveys. 

Play with it and things 
will become clear I hope. 
Here's a screenprint of 
the project:
 

 
The 
first DAT file has got another icon (the purple book) because it is a file node. 
If you doubleclick it, you will open a dialog in which you will see the fixed 
UTM coordinates for the cave entrances.
 
HTH
 
Paul De Biehttp://www.scavalon.behttp://scavalon.blogspot.com
 
  
  From: [email protected] 
  [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ken 
  BaileySent: Thursday, December 30, 2010 4:32 PMTo: 
  [email protected]: [compass-users] Re: Project 
  Files
  
  Larry,
  Thanks for taking the time to explain this.  I guess what is 
  confusing me then is that I have a place to enter the survey team and the 
  particulars only once on a survey and the team changes from trip to trip so 
  that information stays in my notes while the original compass 
  survey entry just gets further out of date.  I guess what I had 
  envisioned was the project allowing me to enter each trip's 
  team information after each trip and keeping stats on how much help and 
  where in the cave people gave their time.  Maybe there is a way to do 
  what I am wanting and I just can't find it.  I have only gotten serious 
  about using the software this summer so there is a lot I don't know and I 
  can't seem to find it in the help.  What I had done is break up every 
  survey trip into a multiple surveys so I could enter the team data and 
  then try to get a project to draw them together.  I wound up having 
  to put it all in one survey file to draw the cave which it looks like the 
  way to do it.  The cave I am working on is about 2.5 miles long so one 
  file will be enough but I am having to keep a second file of who did what and 
  when and how much.  I have to say my field work has improved greatly with 
  the software keeping more honest I am wanting to go back and redo some of my 
  old work.  
  Thanks for the software and the explanation.  I am having people in 
  my grotto ask me to teach them how to use the software and I am far from an 
  expert so I will probably have more dumb questions in the future but I promise 
  only after I have read the help.
  Ken>>> "Tom" <[email protected]> 12/29/2010 2:48 
  PM >>>  
  
  I have a project file for Bigfoot Cave and it is divided into about 6 
  surveys. The one survey won't open, it gives a "dat file too big". Bigfoot is 
  about 16 miles long.--- In [email protected], 
  "Larry Fish" <[email protected]> wrote:>> Hi Ken,> > 
  Thanks for your questions. There have already been some good answers. I 
  will> add a few more things.> > This may have been asked but 
  I can't find it. I have read> > the help about project files but I 
  don't understand why I> > should use them or how to get all the 
  different surveys to> > draw as one cave.> > Project 
  files are a way organize a cave or a cave system. They don't> actually 
  contain any survey data. They only contain a list files that will> be 
  compiled together. You use them in two situations:> > I. CAVE 
  SYSTEMS. Projects are use to organize multiple caves into a system.> 
  For example, we have a caving area here in Colorado called Williams 
  Canyon.> There are about 20 or 30 caves in and around the Canyon. With 
  a project> file, I can create a combined plot that includes all the 
  caves in the> canyon. I can also create a different project files that 
  only parts of the> canyon. For example, I have one that contains the 
  caves on the East side the> canyon and another that contains the caves 
  on the West side. I probably have> 10 different project files for 
  Williams Canyon, each one groups a different> combination of caves 
  together. The important thing to understand is that> each cave can be 
  included more than one Project File. > > II. LARGE CAVES. When 
  caves get beyond a certain size, it is awkward to have> them in a 
  single file. For example, Lechuguilla is large enough that it has> been 
  divided up into seven files, where each contains a different region of> 
  the cave. Lechuguilla has the "Entrance," "Near East," "Far East," 
  "South,"> etc. The project file is then used to put all those pieces 
  together. > > You don't need project files for small to medium 
  caves. There is really no> limit to the size of a DAT file, but most 
  people start splitting the cave up> into separate file when it reaches 
  about 20 to 50 miles in length.> > Although Compass will handle 
  it, I would not put each survey into a separate> file. That clutters up 
  the disk and makes it hard to do certain things.> > III. 
  GEO-REFERENCING. You can only tie a cave to Longitude/Latitude or UTM> 
  coordinates through a survey project.> > > I have tried 
  putting the survey from each weekend in as a> > separate file in a 
  Project but I wind up just looking at> > each one individually. I 
  have just wound up going back to> > one survey file so I can look at 
  the entire cave.> > Generally, you don't want to put a single 
  weekend's worth of data in a> separate file. In general, you want to 
  keep between 20 and 50 miles of cave> in a single file. > 
  > > I have played with the wizard but I don't know how the 
  whole> > project is supposed to look at the end so I really am 
  just> > clicking and hoping and then not knowing what I 
  have.> > When you first start out with a new cave, you probably 
  don't want to create> a project. You just want an empty survey file to 
  add data to. So, to start> with, you would select the "File -> 
  Create New Survey File." Then you would> keep adding data to that same 
  file until it reaches about 20 to 50 miles of> cave.> > 
  You will only need a Project at the point that you are ready to: 1)> 
  Geo-reference, 2) breakup the cave or 3) group several caves together into 
  a> system. At that point you use the Wizard:> > The 
  Wizard will ask you which files you want in the project. You just keep> 
  adding files until you have everything you need. Even after you have 
  created> a project, you can still work the individual files by 
  themselves. You only> need the project when you want to view all the 
  files together.> > The only really tricky part comes in when you 
  group together separate caves> that have duplicate station names. 
  That's where the "linking" process comes> in. I won't describe it right 
  now because you probably won't be needing it> for a while and it is 
  confusing.> > Let me know if you have more questions.> 
  > Larry> > 
  ________________________________________> From: [email protected] 
  [mailto:[email protected]]> 
  On Behalf Of Ken Bailey> Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2010 6:53 
  AM> To: [email protected]> 
  Subject: [compass-users] Project Files> > > This may have 
  been asked but I can't find it. I have read the help about> project 
  files but I don't understand why I should use them or how to get all> 
  the different surveys to draw as one cave. I have tried putting the 
  survey> from each weekend in as a separate file in a Project but I wind 
  up just> looking at each one individually. I have just wound up going 
  back to one> survey file so I can look at the entire cave. I have 
  played with the wizard> but I don't know how the whole project is 
  supposed to look at the end so I> really am just clicking and hoping 
  and then not knowing what I have. If> someone could explain the big 
  picture I would go back and try to use the> project manager. I like the 
  idea that I can put the survey team in for that> day but for now those 
  records are in the field notes.> Thanks> 
  Ken>


Messsage #: 245
Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2010 14:23:10 -0700
From: "Larry Fish" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] Re: Project Files

Hi Ken,

 Thanks for taking the time to explain this. I guess what is
 confusing me then is that I have a place to enter the survey
 team and the particulars only once on a survey and the team
 changes from trip to trip so that information stays in my
 notes while the original compass survey entry just gets
 further out of date. 

Most people handle this situation by splitting the survey up into multiple
"sub-surveys."

Let's say you have a survey called the "A" survey. On the first day working
in the cave, you survey stations "A1" through "A10". A week later the same
survey team comes in and adds "A11" through "A25". Finally, a year later, a
totally new team comes in surveys "A26" through "A30".

In Compass you would enter these three segments as separate surveys. To
differentiate between three segments with the same letter designation, you
would add a "Plus Sign" to the survey name that you enter in the header. For
example:

1st Survey = Name: "A" Shots: A1 - A10
2nd Survey = Name: "A+" Shots: A11 - A25
3rd Survey = Name: "A++" Shots: A26 - A30

This system allows you to split up a survey whenever something changes about
the survey. That insures that you won't lose any Team or Date Data.

You don't have to use the Plus Sign for this. Virtually any symbol will do.
For example, some people use a single quote to designate a sub-survey:

Name: A'
Name: A''
Name: A'''

Now remember all three surveys or "sub-surveys" would normally go in the
same file, not in different files. In fact, if you have a "B", "C" or "D"
survey with their own "sub-surveys," all of it would also go in the same
file.

 Thanks for the software and the explanation. I am having
 people in my grotto ask me to teach them how to use the
 software and I am far from an expert so I will probably have
 more dumb questions in the future but I promise only after I
 have read the help.

Actually the "dumb" questions are the BEST questions. They are usually
questions that other people have but are too shy to ask. They also help
clarify where the software and documentation needs work. As a programmer, I
know exactly how everything works, so I'm blind to the weaknesses of the
software.

Let me know if you have any questions.

Larry


Messsage #: 246
Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2010 16:25:33 -0500
From: "Ken Bailey" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] Re: Project Files

Thanks Paul.  I look forward to seeing how the file is set up.

 "Paul De Bie"  12/30/2010 12:53 PM 
  
Hi Ken,

Everything is very well explained in the Help. The Help in Compass is outstanding.

But to make a few things clear.
A DAT file is not a survey. 
A DAT files is a collection of surveys (sessions or trips, call it as you like). For each survey you can enter date, team, some remarks, units, magnetic deviation etc. 
A DAT file is most of the time 1 cave. 
If you have different caves in the same area, you might want to group them together so you can plot them together or export them to Google Earth or so. That's where you will need a Project (MAK file).  You can then fix the entrance (or better: a particular shot) by entering their UTM coordinates in a so called "DAT File Node". 

I will send you a project (MAK) that consists out of a handful of caves (so multiple DAT files) and in each DAT file there is a bunch of surveys. 
Play with it and things will become clear I hope. 
Here's a screenprint of the project:

The first DAT file has got another icon (the purple book) because it is a file node. If you doubleclick it, you will open a dialog in which you will see the fixed UTM coordinates for the cave entrances.

HTH

Paul De Bie
http://www.scavalon.be
http://scavalon.blogspot.com

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ken Bailey
Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2010 4:32 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [compass-users] Re: Project Files

Larry,
Thanks for taking the time to explain this.  I guess what is confusing me then is that I have a place to enter the survey team and the particulars only once on a survey and the team changes from trip to trip so that information stays in my notes while the original compass survey entry just gets further out of date.  I guess what I had envisioned was the project allowing me to enter each trip's team information after each trip and keeping stats on how much help and where in the cave people gave their time.  Maybe there is a way to do what I am wanting and I just can't find it.  I have only gotten serious about using the software this summer so there is a lot I don't know and I can't seem to find it in the help.  What I had done is break up every survey trip into a multiple surveys so I could enter the team data and then try to get a project to draw them together.  I wound up having to put it all in one survey file to draw the cave which it looks like the way to do it.  The cave I am working on is about 2.5 miles long so one file will be enough but I am having to keep a second file of who did what and when and how much.  I have to say my field work has improved greatly with the software keeping more honest I am wanting to go back and redo some of my old work.  
Thanks for the software and the explanation.  I am having people in my grotto ask me to teach them how to use the software and I am far from an expert so I will probably have more dumb questions in the future but I promise only after I have read the help.
Ken

 "Tom"  12/29/2010 2:48 PM 
  
I have a project file for Bigfoot Cave and it is divided into about 6 surveys. The one survey won't open, it gives a "dat file too big". Bigfoot is about 16 miles long.

--- In [email protected], "Larry Fish"  wrote:

 Hi Ken,
 
 Thanks for your questions. There have already been some good answers. I will
 add a few more things.
  This may have been asked but I can't find it. I have read
  the help about project files but I don't understand why I
  should use them or how to get all the different surveys to
  draw as one cave.
 
 Project files are a way organize a cave or a cave system. They don't
 actually contain any survey data. They only contain a list files that will
 be compiled together. You use them in two situations:
 
 I. CAVE SYSTEMS. Projects are use to organize multiple caves into a system.
 For example, we have a caving area here in Colorado called Williams Canyon.
 There are about 20 or 30 caves in and around the Canyon. With a project
 file, I can create a combined plot that includes all the caves in the
 canyon. I can also create a different project files that only parts of the
 canyon. For example, I have one that contains the caves on the East side the
 canyon and another that contains the caves on the West side. I probably have
 10 different project files for Williams Canyon, each one groups a different
 combination of caves together. The important thing to understand is that
 each cave can be included more than one Project File. 
 
 II. LARGE CAVES. When caves get beyond a certain size, it is awkward to have
 them in a single file. For example, Lechuguilla is large enough that it has
 been divided up into seven files, where each contains a different region of
 the cave. Lechuguilla has the "Entrance," "Near East," "Far East," "South,"
 etc. The project file is then used to put all those pieces together. 
 
 You don't need project files for small to medium caves. There is really no
 limit to the size of a DAT file, but most people start splitting the cave up
 into separate file when it reaches about 20 to 50 miles in length.
 
 Although Compass will handle it, I would not put each survey into a separate
 file. That clutters up the disk and makes it hard to do certain things.
 
 III. GEO-REFERENCING. You can only tie a cave to Longitude/Latitude or UTM
 coordinates through a survey project.
 
  I have tried putting the survey from each weekend in as a
  separate file in a Project but I wind up just looking at
  each one individually. I have just wound up going back to
  one survey file so I can look at the entire cave.
 
 Generally, you don't want to put a single weekend's worth of data in a
 separate file. In general, you want to keep between 20 and 50 miles of cave
 in a single file. 
 
  I have played with the wizard but I don't know how the whole
  project is supposed to look at the end so I really am just
  clicking and hoping and then not knowing what I have.
 
 When you first start out with a new cave, you probably don't want to create
 a project. You just want an empty survey file to add data to. So, to start
 with, you would select the "File - Create New Survey File." Then you would
 keep adding data to that same file until it reaches about 20 to 50 miles of
 cave.
 
 You will only need a Project at the point that you are ready to: 1)
 Geo-reference, 2) breakup the cave or 3) group several caves together into a
 system. At that point you use the Wizard:
 
 The Wizard will ask you which files you want in the project. You just keep
 adding files until you have everything you need. Even after you have created
 a project, you can still work the individual files by themselves. You only
 need the project when you want to view all the files together.
 
 The only really tricky part comes in when you group together separate caves
 that have duplicate station names. That's where the "linking" process comes
 in. I won't describe it right now because you probably won't be needing it
 for a while and it is confusing.
 
 Let me know if you have more questions.
 
 Larry
 
 ________________________________________
 From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
 On Behalf Of Ken Bailey
 Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2010 6:53 AM
 To: [email protected]
 Subject: [compass-users] Project Files
 
 This may have been asked but I can't find it. I have read the help about
 project files but I don't understand why I should use them or how to get all
 the different surveys to draw as one cave. I have tried putting the survey
 from each weekend in as a separate file in a Project but I wind up just
 looking at each one individually. I have just wound up going back to one
 survey file so I can look at the entire cave. I have played with the wizard
 but I don't know how the whole project is supposed to look at the end so I
 really am just clicking and hoping and then not knowing what I have. If
 someone could explain the big picture I would go back and try to use the
 project manager. I like the idea that I can put the survey team in for that
 day but for now those records are in the field notes.
 Thanks
 Ken

мнимниt

Thanks Paul.  I look forward to seeing how the file is set up.>>> "Paul De Bie" <[email protected]> 12/30/2010 12:53 PM >>>  

Hi Ken,
 
Everything is very well explained in the Help. The Help in Compass is outstanding.
 
But to make a few things clear.
A DAT file is not a survey. 
A DAT files is a collection of surveys (sessions or trips, call it as you like). For each survey you can enter date, team, some remarks, units, magnetic deviation etc. 
A DAT file is most of the time 1 cave. 
If you have different caves in the same area, you might want to group them together so you can plot them together or export them to Google Earth or so. That's where you will need a Project (MAK file).  You can then fix the entrance (or better: a particular shot) by entering their UTM coordinates in a so called "DAT File Node". 
 
I will send you a project (MAK) that consists out of a handful of caves (so multiple DAT files) and in each DAT file there is a bunch of surveys. 
Play with it and things will become clear I hope. 
Here's a screenprint of the project:
 

 
The first DAT file has got another icon (the purple book) because it is a file node. If you doubleclick it, you will open a dialog in which you will see the fixed UTM coordinates for the cave entrances.
 
HTH
 
Paul De Biehttp://www.scavalon.behttp://scavalon.blogspot.com
 

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ken BaileySent: Thursday, December 30, 2010 4:32 PMTo: [email protected]: [compass-users] Re: Project Files

Larry,
Thanks for taking the time to explain this.  I guess what is confusing me then is that I have a place to enter the survey team and the particulars only once on a survey and the team changes from trip to trip so that information stays in my notes while the original compass survey entry just gets further out of date.  I guess what I had envisioned was the project allowing me to enter each trip's team information after each trip and keeping stats on how much help and where in the cave people gave their time.  Maybe there is a way to do what I am wanting and I just can't find it.  I have only gotten serious about using the software this summer so there is a lot I don't know and I can't seem to find it in the help.  What I had done is break up every survey trip into a multiple surveys so I could enter the team data and then try to get a project to draw them together.  I wound up having to put it all in one survey file to draw the cave which it looks like the way to do it.  The cave I am working on is about 2.5 miles long so one file will be enough but I am having to keep a second file of who did what and when and how much.  I have to say my field work has improved greatly with the software keeping more honest I am wanting to go back and redo some of my old work.  
Thanks for the software and the explanation.  I am having people in my grotto ask me to teach them how to use the software and I am far from an expert so I will probably have more dumb questions in the future but I promise only after I have read the help.
Ken>>> "Tom" <[email protected]> 12/29/2010 2:48 PM >>>  

I have a project file for Bigfoot Cave and it is divided into about 6 surveys. The one survey won't open, it gives a "dat file too big". Bigfoot is about 16 miles long.--- In [email protected], "Larry Fish" <[email protected]> wrote:>> Hi Ken,> > Thanks for your questions. There have already been some good answers. I will> add a few more things.> > This may have been asked but I can't find it. I have read> > the help about project files but I don't understand why I> > should use them or how to get all the different surveys to> > draw as one cave.> > Project files are a way organize a cave or a cave system. They don't> actually contain any survey data. They only contain a list files that will> be compiled together. You use them in two situations:> > I. CAVE SYSTEMS. Projects are use to organize multiple caves into a system.> For example, we have a caving area here in Colorado called Williams Canyon.> There are about 20 or 30 caves in and around the Canyon. With a project> file, I can create a combined plot that includes all the caves in the> canyon. I can also create a different project files that only parts of the> canyon. For example, I have one that contains the caves on the East side the> canyon and another that contains the caves on the West side. I probably have> 10 different project files for Williams Canyon, each one groups a different> combination of caves together. The important thing to understand is that> each cave can be included more than one Project File. > > II. LARGE CAVES. When caves get beyond a certain size, it is awkward to have> them in a single file. For example, Lechuguilla is large enough that it has> been divided up into seven files, where each contains a different region of> the cave. Lechuguilla has the "Entrance," "Near East," "Far East," "South,"> etc. The project file is then used to put all those pieces together. > > You don't need project files for small to medium caves. There is really no> limit to the size of a DAT file, but most people start splitting the cave up> into separate file when it reaches about 20 to 50 miles in length.> > Although Compass will handle it, I would not put each survey into a separate> file. That clutters up the disk and makes it hard to do certain things.> > III. GEO-REFERENCING. You can only tie a cave to Longitude/Latitude or UTM> coordinates through a survey project.> > > I have tried putting the survey from each weekend in as a> > separate file in a Project but I wind up just looking at> > each one individually. I have just wound up going back to> > one survey file so I can look at the entire cave.> > Generally, you don't want to put a single weekend's worth of data in a> separate file. In general, you want to keep between 20 and 50 miles of cave> in a single file. > > > I have played with the wizard but I don't know how the whole> > project is supposed to look at the end so I really am just> > clicking and hoping and then not knowing what I have.> > When you first start out with a new cave, you probably don't want to create> a project. You just want an empty survey file to add data to. So, to start> with, you would select the "File -> Create New Survey File." Then you would> keep adding data to that same file until it reaches about 20 to 50 miles of> cave.> > You will only need a Project at the point that you are ready to: 1)> Geo-reference, 2) breakup the cave or 3) group several caves together into a> system. At that point you use the Wizard:> > The Wizard will ask you which files you want in the project. You just keep> adding files until you have everything you need. Even after you have created> a project, you can still work the individual files by themselves. You only> need the project when you want to view all the files together.> > The only really tricky part comes in when you group together separate caves> that have duplicate station names. That's where the "linking" process comes> in. I won't describe it right now because you probably won't be needing it> for a while and it is confusing.> > Let me know if you have more questions.> > Larry> > ________________________________________> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]> On Behalf Of Ken Bailey> Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2010 6:53 AM> To: [email protected]> Subject: [compass-users] Project Files> > > This may have been asked but I can't find it. I have read the help about> project files but I don't understand why I should use them or how to get all> the different surveys to draw as one cave. I have tried putting the survey> from each weekend in as a separate file in a Project but I wind up just> looking at each one individually. I have just wound up going back to one> survey file so I can look at the entire cave. I have played with the wizard> but I don't know how the whole project is supposed to look at the end so I> really am just clicking and hoping and then not knowing what I have. If> someone could explain the big picture I would go back and try to use the> project manager. I like the idea that I can put the survey team in for that> day but for now those records are in the field notes.> Thanks> Ken>