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Messsage #: 247
Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2011 13:33:13 -0800 (PST)
From: Tom 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] Version control: multiple editors

Version control: multiple editors

I want to be able to split up the project so multiple people can edit the existing files. Didn't really find anything in the manual. Is it as simple as having parts of the cave in separate dat files? Then just deleting the old dat file and adding the new dat file from windows and outside of the .MAK? The lineplot is already entered, but not passage dimensions, mag dec, and other minor details.

thanks,
Tom
Bigfoot Cave, 16 miles
kmctf.org

Version control: multiple editorsI want to be able to split up the project so multiple people can edit the existing files. Didn't really find anything in the manual. Is it as simple as having parts of the cave in separate dat files? Then just deleting the old dat file and adding the new dat file from windows and outside of the .MAK? The lineplot is already entered, but not passage dimensions, mag dec, and other minor details.thanks,TomBigfoot Cave, 16 mileskmctf.org


Messsage #: 248
Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2011 04:42:04 -0700
From: "Larry Fish" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] Version control: multiple editors

Hi Tom,

 I want to be able to split up the project so multiple people
 can edit the existing files. Didn't really find anything in
 the manual. Is it as simple as having parts of the cave in
 separate dat files? Then just deleting the old dat file and
 adding the new dat file from windows and outside of the
 .MAK? The lineplot is already entered, but not passage
 dimensions, mag dec, and other minor details.

If the survey files are already divided up so that only one person is
working on one file at a time, then you can do exactly what you described.
However, I wouldn't arbitrarily split the files up just so each person is
working on a different file. 

If you are going have more than one person working on the same file at the
same time, here is what I'd do:

1. Give each person a copy of all the data, even if he/she is not working on
some sections. Part of the reason for giving everyone all they data is they
may need it to find and fix certain error problems such as mis-tied
stations. Without the whole cave data set, it may be difficult to find the
problem.

2. Make sure each person keeps track of which sections, shots and surveys
they have changed.

3. When they are done editing, put each edited set of files in a separate
disk folder.

4. Using the information about what person has changed what surveys; merge
the data back into a "Master" copy of the data.

5. To do the Merging Operation, use the "Manipulate Surveys" option in the
Compass Project Manager. You will find it by selecting the "Edit -
Manipulate Surveys" option from the menu bar. This tool will allow you copy,
merge, delete and re-order surveys between two files. The Left Hand panel
shows the surveys in the "Merge Target." The Right Hand Panel shows the
surveys from the "Source File." You can copy surveys from the Source to the
Target. You can delete and reorder surveys in the Target. When you save the
Target, all the changes you have made will be incorporated into the Saved
file.

There is detailed information on the Operation of the Manipulate Surveys
tool in the Help files.

While you are doing this operation, make sure you make lots of backup copies
at every step of the way. That way if you make a mistake, you can just
revert to one of your backups.

Larry


Messsage #: 249
Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2011 11:04:27 -0800 (PST)
From: Tom 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] Version control: multiple editors

Larry,
As you saw the Bigfoot, there are about 5(?) dat files in the MAK. So I will have them only edit that particular dat file. That means I should be able to merge their edited dat file into my master survey.

I think it would be asking too much to have them keep track of each survey modified.

thanks,
Tom

 From: Larry Fish 
 Subject: RE: [compass-users] Version control: multiple editors
 To: [email protected]
 Date: Tuesday, January 4, 2011, 3:42 AM
 Hi Tom,
 
  I want to be able to split up the project so multiple
 people
  can edit the existing files. Didn't really find
 anything in
  the manual. Is it as simple as having parts of the
 cave in
  separate dat files? Then just deleting the old dat
 file and
  adding the new dat file from windows and outside of
 the
  .MAK? The lineplot is already entered, but not
 passage
  dimensions, mag dec, and other minor details.
 
 If the survey files are already divided up so that only one
 person is
 working on one file at a time, then you can do exactly what
 you described.
 However, I wouldn't arbitrarily split the files up just so
 each person is
 working on a different file. 
 
 If you are going have more than one person working on the
 same file at the
 same time, here is what I'd do:
 
 1. Give each person a copy of all the data, even if he/she
 is not working on
 some sections. Part of the reason for giving everyone all
 they data is they
 may need it to find and fix certain error problems such as
 mis-tied
 stations. Without the whole cave data set, it may be
 difficult to find the
 problem.
 
 2. Make sure each person keeps track of which sections,
 shots and surveys
 they have changed.
 
 3. When they are done editing, put each edited set of files
 in a separate
 disk folder.
 
 4. Using the information about what person has changed what
 surveys; merge
 the data back into a "Master" copy of the data.
 
 5. To do the Merging Operation, use the "Manipulate
 Surveys" option in the
 Compass Project Manager. You will find it by selecting the
 "Edit -
 Manipulate Surveys" option from the menu bar. This tool
 will allow you copy,
 merge, delete and re-order surveys between two files. The
 Left Hand panel
 shows the surveys in the "Merge Target." The Right Hand
 Panel shows the
 surveys from the "Source File." You can copy surveys from
 the Source to the
 Target. You can delete and reorder surveys in the Target.
 When you save the
 Target, all the changes you have made will be incorporated
 into the Saved
 file.
 
 There is detailed information on the Operation of the
 Manipulate Surveys
 tool in the Help files.
 
 While you are doing this operation, make sure you make lots
 of backup copies
 at every step of the way. That way if you make a mistake,
 you can just
 revert to one of your backups.
 
 Larry
 
 ------------------------------------
 
 Yahoo! Groups Links
 
   [email protected]


Messsage #: 250
Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2011 05:05:58 -0000
From: "derekbristol" 
Subject: Round Tripping Issues

I'm working on a cave map with only 4 loops.  I thought that when I originally compiled the data I had set Compass to close those loops, but apparently did not.  It placed all of the loop error on the closing shot.  I've addressed this, but had already fully drawn the cave in Illustrator CS.  So I figured this would be a good opportunity to learn round tripping and fix the small deviation between the drawing and new line plot with properly closed loops.

I open the new .plt file in SVGexporter, but when I go to "Load Target", and select my Illustrator file (.svg format), I get an error:  "Reference to undeclared namespace prefix: 'inkscape'.".  I've tried a number of things, but it seems that whenever I take any SVG export from Compass, and add anything at all to it in Illustrator, I get this same error message when I try to Merge / Morph.

Anyone else have this problem or know how to solve it?

I'm curious about the Inkscape reference in the error message.  I'm not using Inkscape and haven't converted to Inkscape .svg format.

Thanks,
Derek


Messsage #: 251
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2011 03:48:49 -0700
From: "Larry Fish" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] Round Tripping Issues

Hi Derek,

It sounds like there is missing a field that the SVG-Exporter is expecting
to find. Compass puts several "Inkscape" tags in the data to insure that the
data is Inkscape-compatible. In some instances, Compass has to add that data
if it doesn't find it. For example, if the data came straight from
Illustrator, it would not have Inkscape tags.

You have probably put your data through a slightly different series of
operations than anything I tried here and some or all of the tags are
missing. If you could send me a copy of your data, I could find the problem
and fix it. 

I will send you a private email with my address so you can send me the data
if you are willing to. 

Send me both the plot file and the SVG file. I will keep data confidential
and it won't be shown or given to anyone else.

Larry Fish 

  _____  

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of derekbristol
Sent: Friday, February 04, 2011 10:06 PM
Subject: [compass-users] Round Tripping Issues

I'm working on a cave map with only 4 loops. I thought that when I
originally compiled the data I had set Compass to close those loops, but
apparently did not. It placed all of the loop error on the closing shot.
I've addressed this, but had already fully drawn the cave in Illustrator CS.
So I figured this would be a good opportunity to learn round tripping and
fix the small deviation between the drawing and new line plot with properly
closed loops.

I open the new .plt file in SVGexporter, but when I go to "Load Target", and
select my Illustrator file (.svg format), I get an error: "Reference to
undeclared namespace prefix: 'inkscape'.". I've tried a number of things,
but it seems that whenever I take any SVG export from Compass, and add
anything at all to it in Illustrator, I get this same error message when I
try to Merge / Morph.

Anyone else have this problem or know how to solve it?

I'm curious about the Inkscape reference in the error message. I'm not using
Inkscape and haven't converted to Inkscape .svg format.

Thanks,
Derek

v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}


Messsage #: 252
Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2011 15:30:51 -0000
From: "derekbristol" 
Subject: Re: Round Tripping Issues

Larry,
Data sent.  I think you'll recognize the cave... it's Premonition.

Thanks for the help.

 Hi Derek,
 
 It sounds like there is missing a field that the SVG-Exporter is expecting
 to find. Compass puts several "Inkscape" tags in the data to insure that the
 data is Inkscape-compatible. In some instances, Compass has to add that data
 if it doesn't find it. For example, if the data came straight from
 Illustrator, it would not have Inkscape tags.
 
 You have probably put your data through a slightly different series of
 operations than anything I tried here and some or all of the tags are
 missing. If you could send me a copy of your data, I could find the problem
 and fix it. 
 
 I will send you a private email with my address so you can send me the data
 if you are willing to. 
 
 Send me both the plot file and the SVG file. I will keep data confidential
 and it won't be shown or given to anyone else.
 
 Larry Fish 
 
   _____  
 
 From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
 On Behalf Of derekbristol
 Sent: Friday, February 04, 2011 10:06 PM
 To: [email protected]
 Subject: [compass-users] Round Tripping Issues
 
 I'm working on a cave map with only 4 loops. I thought that when I
 originally compiled the data I had set Compass to close those loops, but
 apparently did not. It placed all of the loop error on the closing shot.
 I've addressed this, but had already fully drawn the cave in Illustrator CS.
 So I figured this would be a good opportunity to learn round tripping and
 fix the small deviation between the drawing and new line plot with properly
 closed loops.
 
 I open the new .plt file in SVGexporter, but when I go to "Load Target", and
 select my Illustrator file (.svg format), I get an error: "Reference to
 undeclared namespace prefix: 'inkscape'.". I've tried a number of things,
 but it seems that whenever I take any SVG export from Compass, and add
 anything at all to it in Illustrator, I get this same error message when I
 try to Merge / Morph.
 
 Anyone else have this problem or know how to solve it?
 
 I'm curious about the Inkscape reference in the error message. I'm not using
 Inkscape and haven't converted to Inkscape .svg format.
 
 Thanks,
 Derek


Messsage #: 253
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2011 13:19:39 -0700
From: "Larry Fish" 
Subject: Issue With UTM Convergence

Hi Everyone,
    I thought I'd point out a potential problem that was brought to my
attention by Paul De Bie.
    The UTM Convergence angle was wrong for any cave or location east of
zero degrees longitude. That would be a small part of England, Europe
excluding Spain, the Eastern 2/3s of Africa, all of Asia and Australia.
Any locations west of zero degrees longitude are unaffected. So North and
South America are excluded. So are most of England, Spain and Western
Africa.
     There is a new version of Compass on the internet that fixes this
problem. If you have been having Compass adjust your maps to match the UTM
grid and the caves are in the specified areas, your caves maybe rotated by a
few degrees. You may want to recompile your data with the new version.
     Larry


Messsage #: 254
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 20:32:12 -0700
From: "Mark, Sue, Alex, and John" 
Subject: kml exports?

I couldn't find this in the manuals (maybe looking the wrong place?) but how do you export kml files to google earth? 
Thanks in advance,
Mark


Messsage #: 255
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 21:44:30 -0700
From: "Larry Fish" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] kml exports?

Hi Mark,

Load your project into the Project Manager. Press the "Process and View
Cave" button. This will take you to the Compass Viewer. Under the "File"
menu option, select "Export 3D Formats." In the 3D Exporter, select the last
tab "KML". Change the settings to whatever you want and then press the
Export KML File button. If you have google earth installed on your computer,
you can just double click on the file, and Google Earth will load it and
zoom in on the cave location.

The cave must be geo-referenced for this to work. This means that at least
station in the cave must be referenced to UTM or Long/Lat. Let me know if
you need instructions for doing this.

Larry

  _____  

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Mark, Sue, Alex, and John
Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2011 8:32 PM
Subject: [compass-users] kml exports?

I couldn't find this in the manuals (maybe looking the wrong place?) but how
do you export kml files to google earth? 
Thanks in advance,
Mark

v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}

st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }


Messsage #: 256
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 09:32:46 -0500
From: Tony Canike 
Subject: Re: [compass-users] kml exports?

The KML exports are pretty easy and the results are quite impressive, 
given how little effort is required.  The first time I used Larry's KML 
export and plotted on Goggle Earth, I kicked myself for not doing it 
earlier.

I'm just waiting for Google Geology-3d(tm) to be released, so we can 
then zoom underground and see the relationship between the cave 
passages, earth's surface, and the contact surfaces between the various 
geological formations (sandstone, limestone, shale, etc.)

Along with Google HydroEarth(tm), which will incorporate a display the 
results of dye traces between your various caves and springs in 3d.

On 2/22/2011 11:44 PM, Larry Fish ([email protected]) wrote

 Hi Mark,

 Load your project into the Project Manager. Press the "Process and 
 View Cave" button. This will take you to the Compass Viewer. Under the 
 "File" menu option, select "Export 3D Formats." In the 3D Exporter, 
 select the last tab "KML". Change the settings to whatever you want 
 and then press the Export KML File button. If you have google earth 
 installed on your computer, you can just double click on the file, and 
 Google Earth will load it and zoom in on the cave location.

 The cave must be geo-referenced for this to work. This means that at 
 least station in the cave must be referenced to UTM or Long/Lat. Let 
 me know if you need instructions for doing this.

 Larry

 ------------------------------------------------------------------------

 *From:*[email protected] 
 [mailto:[email protected]] *On Behalf Of *Mark, Sue, Alex, 
 and John
 *Sent:* Tuesday, February 22, 2011 8:32 PM
 *To:* [email protected]
 *Subject:* [compass-users] kml exports?

 I couldn't find this in the manuals (maybe looking the wrong place?) 
 but how do you export kml files to google earth?
 Thanks in advance,
 Mark
  
    The KML exports are pretty easy and the results are quite
    impressive, given how little effort is required.  The first time I
    used Larry's KML export and plotted on Goggle Earth, I kicked myself
    for not doing it earlier.
    
    I'm just waiting for Google Geology-3d(tm) to be released, so we can
    then zoom underground and see the relationship between the cave
    passages, earth's surface, and the contact surfaces between the
    various geological formations (sandstone, limestone, shale, etc.)
    
    Along with Google HydroEarth(tm), which will incorporate a display
    the results of dye traces between your various caves and springs in
    3d.
    
    On 2/22/2011 11:44 PM, Larry Fish ([email protected]) wrote
    
       
            
              Hi Mark,
               
              Load your project
                    into the Project
                    Manager. Press the “Process and View
                      Cave”
                    button. This will take you to the Compass Viewer.
                    Under the “File”
                    menu option, select “Export 3D Formats.” In the 3D
                    Exporter, select
                    the last tab “KML”. Change the settings to whatever
                    you want and
                    then press the Export KML File button. If you have
                    google earth installed on
                    your computer, you can just double click on the
                    file, and Google Earth will
                    load it and zoom in on the cave location.
               
              The cave must be
                    geo-referenced for this
                    to work. This means that at least station in the
                    cave must be referenced to UTM
                    or Long/Lat. Let me know if you need instructions
                    for doing this.
               
              Larry
               
                    
                From:
                      [email protected]
                      [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Mark,
                      Sue, Alex, and John
                      Sent:
                      Tuesday, February 22, 2011
                      8:32 PM
                      To:
                      [email protected]
                      Subject:
                      [compass-users] kml
                      exports?
              
               
                
                  
                    I
                          couldn't find this in the manuals (maybe
                          looking the wrong place?) but how do
                          you export kml files to google earth? 
                          Thanks in advance,
                          Mark


Messsage #: 257
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 09:56:31 -0500
From: Luc Le Blanc 
Subject: Re: [compass-users] kml exports?

2011/2/23 Tony Canike 

 I'm just waiting for Google Geology-3d(tm) to be released, so we can then zoom underground and see the relationship between the cave passages, earth's surface, and the contact surfaces between the various geological formations (sandstone, limestone, shale, etc.)

Are you dreaming up new software? I ran into this problem of an
underground cave (!) when implementing the KML export in Auriga: the
cave has to be on the surface since there is no transparency setting
to be able to "see" it through the surface. Just that would help a
lot.

Luc Le Blanc
http://www.speleo.qc.ca/Auriga


Messsage #: 258
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 20:26:31 -0000
From: "RyanY" 
Subject: Cave Viewer inconsistently renders incorrect angles

Hi All! I apologize if I'm asking something that's already been asked, but I've searched both this forum and the archives and couldn't find a similar problem.

My friend has over 6300 feet of survey data in Compass for a cave he's been working on. He recently bought a Pocket PC to sketch the cave with using PocketTopo. I offered to convert his Compass files into PocketTopo files. When I did, the PocketTopo plot looked a little different. I overlayed the Compass plot with the PocketTopo plot, and they definitely were different. I assumed it was an error of mine during file manipulation. I decided to determine the source of the error, so I made brand new survey files in Compass and PocketTopo *using only front sights* and *the exact same data*. Somehow, the plots were STILL different! So, I pulled out my transparent cave survey protractor and began measuring. Lo and behold, the Compass plot had some angles that were incorrect! I verified that I was in the plan view, so it's not that I was looking at the plot from a skewed view. Exporting to bitmap still gives me the wrong angles. What's interesting is that when I print the plot out, the angles SUDDENLY BECOME CORRECT!

Do you guys have any ideas?? I suppose this could be some sort of incorrect setting, but surely there isn't a setting to make the angles appear different that what they should be? Could this be some sort of software bug? I have version 5.11.1.1.165

Here are some pictures of the plots: 
http://forums.caves.org/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=11762&p=101230#p101098

Thanks for any help you can give. 


Messsage #: 259
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 16:05:17 -0700 (PDT)
From: Tom 
Subject: Re: [compass-users] Cave Viewer inconsistently renders incorrect angles

Can you look at the raw data(text based file) and see if angles and distances work?
Is it possible one program is showing 3D in view and another program showing 2D, so that when you printscreen you get skewed data? 
Can you post the data file so someone else can try manipulating the data to get the same resutls as you?

p.s. how do you like PocketTopo?

Tom

 From: RyanY 
 Subject: [compass-users] Cave Viewer inconsistently renders incorrect angles
 To: [email protected]
 Date: Thursday, March 17, 2011, 1:26 PM
 Hi All! I apologize if I'm asking
 something that's already been asked, but I've searched both
 this forum and the archives and couldn't find a similar
 problem.
 
 My friend has over 6300 feet of survey data in Compass for
 a cave he's been working on. He recently bought a Pocket PC
 to sketch the cave with using PocketTopo. I offered to
 convert his Compass files into PocketTopo files. When I did,
 the PocketTopo plot looked a little different. I overlayed
 the Compass plot with the PocketTopo plot, and they
 definitely were different. I assumed it was an error of mine
 during file manipulation. I decided to determine the source
 of the error, so I made brand new survey files in Compass
 and PocketTopo *using only front sights* and *the exact same
 data*. Somehow, the plots were STILL different! So, I pulled
 out my transparent cave survey protractor and began
 measuring. Lo and behold, the Compass plot had some angles
 that were incorrect! I verified that I was in the plan view,
 so it's not that I was looking at the plot from a skewed
 view. Exporting to bitmap still gives me the wrong angles.
 What's interesting is that when I print the plot out, the
 angles SUDDENLY BECOME CORRECT!
 
 Do you guys have any ideas?? I suppose this could be some
 sort of incorrect setting, but surely there isn't a setting
 to make the angles appear different that what they should
 be? Could this be some sort of software bug? I have version
 5.11.1.1.165
 
 Here are some pictures of the plots: 
 http://forums.caves.org/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=11762&p=101230#p101098
 
 Thanks for any help you can give. 
 
 ------------------------------------
 
 Yahoo! Groups Links
 
   [email protected]


Messsage #: 260
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 23:40:01 -0000
From: "RyanY" 
Subject: Re: Cave Viewer inconsistently renders incorrect angles

Hi Tom,

I'm sure yours is a simple question, but I can't seem to quite understand what you are asking. What do you mean by "work," and which file (Compass or -Topo) are you asking about? The Compass file looks fine in Notepad (as far as I can tell... not too sure about some of the header information, but the survey data all looks OK), but the PocketTopo file is some sort of encoded jibberish. For those of you who are wondering how I made a working PocketTopo file by hand, I lied... I actually made a VisualTopo file by hand which can be imported by PocketTopo and is of similar formatting to a Compass file.

I had checked to see if the compass view was slightly skewed, giving me a slight 3D view, but I found that this was not the case. The plot is incorrect as soon as the Cave Viewer opens (default view is plan view, I think). To double check, I went ahead and put it in profile view and 3D-rotated it to where I was overlooking the top again (plan). The angles were still incorrect. 

By the way, in one instance, I am getting as much as over 10 degrees off.

I have posted both the Compass file (first.DAT) and the PocketTopo file (first.top) to the Files section of this group for anyone who may want to view them. Both have been generated by their respective programs and neither have been altered manually. To see what I see, you might want to make sure to have the same Compass version as I do, and see if it's the software version or something else.

Does anyone know if there's a place where I can download an older version of Compass? If my plot suddenly looks the way it's supposed to when using the older version, then we'll know that the version I've been using has a bug.

Thanks.

P.S. I haven't had the opportunity to use his PDA with PocketTopo yet, but his demonstration of it left me with the impression that it's a very simple yet effective and accurate program. If I had a PDA, I think I'd definitely use it. Entering the data in via stylus (depending on PDA method of input) might get somewhat annoying though.

 Can you look at the raw data(text based file) and see if angles and distances work?
 Is it possible one program is showing 3D in view and another program showing 2D, so that when you printscreen you get skewed data? 
 Can you post the data file so someone else can try manipulating the data to get the same resutls as you?
 
 p.s. how do you like PocketTopo?
 
 Tom
 
 --- On Thu, 3/17/11, RyanY  wrote:
 
  From: RyanY 
  Subject: [compass-users] Cave Viewer inconsistently renders incorrect angles
  To: [email protected]
  Date: Thursday, March 17, 2011, 1:26 PM
  Hi All! I apologize if I'm asking
  something that's already been asked, but I've searched both
  this forum and the archives and couldn't find a similar
  problem.
  
  My friend has over 6300 feet of survey data in Compass for
  a cave he's been working on. He recently bought a Pocket PC
  to sketch the cave with using PocketTopo. I offered to
  convert his Compass files into PocketTopo files. When I did,
  the PocketTopo plot looked a little different. I overlayed
  the Compass plot with the PocketTopo plot, and they
  definitely were different. I assumed it was an error of mine
  during file manipulation. I decided to determine the source
  of the error, so I made brand new survey files in Compass
  and PocketTopo *using only front sights* and *the exact same
  data*. Somehow, the plots were STILL different! So, I pulled
  out my transparent cave survey protractor and began
  measuring. Lo and behold, the Compass plot had some angles
  that were incorrect! I verified that I was in the plan view,
  so it's not that I was looking at the plot from a skewed
  view. Exporting to bitmap still gives me the wrong angles.
  What's interesting is that when I print the plot out, the
  angles SUDDENLY BECOME CORRECT!
  
  Do you guys have any ideas?? I suppose this could be some
  sort of incorrect setting, but surely there isn't a setting
  to make the angles appear different that what they should
  be? Could this be some sort of software bug? I have version
  5.11.1.1.165
  
  Here are some pictures of the plots: 
  http://forums.caves.org/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=11762&p=101230#p101098
  
  Thanks for any help you can give. 
  
  ------------------------------------
  
  Yahoo! Groups Links
  
    [email protected]


Messsage #: 261
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 03:46:32 -0600
From: "Larry Fish" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] Cave Viewer inconsistently renders incorrect angles

Ryan,

Thanks for your email and questions. I've down loaded your files and images
and spent some time looking at them. I think this is probably an "aspect
ratio" issue, but I don't have quite enough information to be sure. 

I'm going to give you a fairly large "brain-dump" so you can understand the
issues and focus on certain details.

This statement gives me a clue:

 What's interesting is that when I print the plot out, the
 angles SUDDENLY BECOME CORRECT!

Compass uses exactly the same subroutines to print a file and display a file
on the screen, so that rules out a mathematical or graphics error inside
Compass. The most likely cause is the display and how it is setup,
especially things that the "Aspect Ratio." Here is a detailed explanation of
the issues:

1. PRINTERS. When you print a cave plot, the printer uses an exact number of
Pixels per inch in the left-right and up-down direction. As a result, when
you print a line that is supposed to be 1-inch long, it will be 1-inch long
on the paper. That's why your print out has the correct angles.

2. SCREEN SCALING. The screen is different. Its scale and resolution are
based on a several extraneous factors. For example, Windows assumes the
screen has a certain resolution. Typically, it is 96 Dots Per Inch (DPI),
but it can be other values. If Windows is set to 96 DPI, it doesn't really
mean that a line 96 dots long will really be 1-inch long. The actual size
depends on the Resolution of the monitor, the size of the monitor, the video
card settings and how the monitor is adjusted. 

For example, let's say you have a monitor whose screen is 16 inches wide. If
your video card is set to a resolution of 1024 by 768, there will be 1024
pixels across the 16 inch width of the screen. That means that the actual
scale is 64 dpi so a 96 pixel lines would actually be 1.5 inches long on the
screen. If you change the video mode to 2048 by 1536, the actual screen DPI
will now be 128 dpi and the 96 pixel line will only be 0.75-inch long. The
important thing to understand is that, unlike the printer, the monitors
scale and resolution depends of many factors and the computer can't control
all of them.

3. ASPECT RATIO. The problem gets more complicated because different
monitors have different "aspect ratios." For example, on an old style
non-HiDef monitor the "Aspect Ratio" is 4 to 3. That means that the ratio of
the width to the height is 4 to 3. Newer, high def monitors have aspect
ratios of 16 to 9. Some of the very newest monitors have aspect ratios of 16
to 10.

When you setup your computer for a particular monitor, you must select a
screen resolution that matches your monitor. If you don't, the pixels will
be stretched or squashed horizontally or vertically. If this happens, the
pixels won't be "Square" and the image will be distorted. The angles between
lines will be distorted. This is the most likely cause of the problem you
are seeing. 

The first thing I would try is to check the monitor's resolution and make
sure your video card was set for a matching resolution. Some people don't
like to set their video resolution to match the monitor because it makes the
text too small. If you are doing this, make sure the resolution you choose
match the aspect ratio of your monitor. For example, if your monitor has a 4
by 3 aspect ratio, screen resolutions of 800x600, 1024x768 and 1600x1200 all
have a 4 to 3 aspect ratio. I've have posted file that you can use to test
to see if the aspect ratio is wrong. More on this below.

4. MONITOR ADJUSTMENTS. On top of that, you can adjust the width of the
image on the monitor using the monitor's own controls. For example, you
might prefer to have an 1/4 inch border on the right and left side of the
image to make sure you can the you are not cutting off part of the display.
That small gap would change the Aspect Ratio enough to through the survey
angles.

5. MEASURED ANGLES. I loaded the file you posted into Compass and displayed
the file in the Viewer. I then used the "Tools - Measure Distance/Angles"
option to measure the angles of each shot in the cave. The tool allows you
to lock a cursor on each survey station ("Nearest Station" button) so the
measurements are extremely accurate. When I do this, the angles exactly
match the compass angles in the survey data.

This tools measures angles mathematically by calculating difference between
the locations of each point on the screen. The key thing is that it is NOT
measuring it visually, so it ignores all kinds of resolution, scaling and
aspect ratio issues.

This is something you can do too and it would give us more information to
isolate the cause. Let me know if you need help using the tool.

I have uploaded a file to the Compass Group called "Cross.plt." You should
download it and double click on it. If Compass is installed properly, the
Viewer will automatically open the file. The image will display a cross with
equal length arms. (Be sure to expand the Viewer to full screen and zoom out
a bit so you can see the ends of the cross arms.) If you measure the cross
arms on the screen and they aren't equal, then the problem is probably
caused because the video resolution settings don't match your monitor.

It would also be useful to know more about your computer. What type of
monitor and video card are you using, what resolution your are running and
what operating system have you got? 

Larry

________________________________________
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of RyanY
Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 2:27 PM
Subject: [compass-users] Cave Viewer inconsistently renders incorrect angles

 
Hi All! I apologize if I'm asking something that's already been asked, but
I've searched both this forum and the archives and couldn't find a similar
problem.

My friend has over 6300 feet of survey data in Compass for a cave he's been
working on. He recently bought a Pocket PC to sketch the cave with using
PocketTopo. I offered to convert his Compass files into PocketTopo files.
When I did, the PocketTopo plot looked a little different. I overlayed the
Compass plot with the PocketTopo plot, and they definitely were different. I
assumed it was an error of mine during file manipulation. I decided to
determine the source of the error, so I made brand new survey files in
Compass and PocketTopo *using only front sights* and *the exact same data*.
Somehow, the plots were STILL different! So, I pulled out my transparent
cave survey protractor and began measuring. Lo and behold, the Compass plot
had some angles that were incorrect! I verified that I was in the plan view,
so it's not that I was looking at the plot from a skewed view. Exporting to
bitmap still gives me the wrong angles. What's interesting is that when I
print the plot out, the angles SUDDENLY BECOME CORRECT!

Do you guys have any ideas?? I suppose this could be some sort of incorrect
setting, but surely there isn't a setting to make the angles appear
different that what they should be? Could this be some sort of software bug?
I have version 5.11.1.1.165

Here are some pictures of the plots: 
http://forums.caves.org/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=11762&p=101230#p101098

Thanks for any help you can give. 


Messsage #: 262
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 08:11:52 -0400
From: "[email protected]" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] Cave Viewer inconsistently renders incorrect angles

I ran into the aspect ratio problem when I was taking screen shots from the
Compass viewer. I intended to get into my graphics card controls to see if
I could correct it. As it happened, I first updated my ATI graphic card
driver, and that fixed the problem.

The easiest test is to create a couple of fake shots, both the same length,
one north-south and the other east-west. Get a screen shot into Photoshop
and compare the pixel length.

Dwight

Original Message:
From: Larry Fish [email protected]
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 03:46:32 -0600
Subject: RE: [compass-users] Cave Viewer inconsistently renders incorrect
angles

Ryan,

Thanks for your email and questions. I've down loaded your files and images
and spent some time looking at them. I think this is probably an "aspect
ratio" issue, but I don't have quite enough information to be sure. 

I'm going to give you a fairly large "brain-dump" so you can understand the
issues and focus on certain details.

This statement gives me a clue:

 What's interesting is that when I print the plot out, the
 angles SUDDENLY BECOME CORRECT!

Compass uses exactly the same subroutines to print a file and display a file
on the screen, so that rules out a mathematical or graphics error inside
Compass. The most likely cause is the display and how it is setup,
especially things that the "Aspect Ratio." Here is a detailed explanation of
the issues:

1. PRINTERS. When you print a cave plot, the printer uses an exact number of
Pixels per inch in the left-right and up-down direction. As a result, when
you print a line that is supposed to be 1-inch long, it will be 1-inch long
on the paper. That's why your print out has the correct angles.

2. SCREEN SCALING. The screen is different. Its scale and resolution are
based on a several extraneous factors. For example, Windows assumes the
screen has a certain resolution. Typically, it is 96 Dots Per Inch (DPI),
but it can be other values. If Windows is set to 96 DPI, it doesn't really
mean that a line 96 dots long will really be 1-inch long. The actual size
depends on the Resolution of the monitor, the size of the monitor, the video
card settings and how the monitor is adjusted. 

For example, let's say you have a monitor whose screen is 16 inches wide. If
your video card is set to a resolution of 1024 by 768, there will be 1024
pixels across the 16 inch width of the screen. That means that the actual
scale is 64 dpi so a 96 pixel lines would actually be 1.5 inches long on the
screen. If you change the video mode to 2048 by 1536, the actual screen DPI
will now be 128 dpi and the 96 pixel line will only be 0.75-inch long. The
important thing to understand is that, unlike the printer, the monitors
scale and resolution depends of many factors and the computer can't control
all of them.

3. ASPECT RATIO. The problem gets more complicated because different
monitors have different "aspect ratios." For example, on an old style
non-HiDef monitor the "Aspect Ratio" is 4 to 3. That means that the ratio of
the width to the height is 4 to 3. Newer, high def monitors have aspect
ratios of 16 to 9. Some of the very newest monitors have aspect ratios of 16
to 10.

When you setup your computer for a particular monitor, you must select a
screen resolution that matches your monitor. If you don't, the pixels will
be stretched or squashed horizontally or vertically. If this happens, the
pixels won't be "Square" and the image will be distorted. The angles between
lines will be distorted. This is the most likely cause of the problem you
are seeing. 

The first thing I would try is to check the monitor's resolution and make
sure your video card was set for a matching resolution. Some people don't
like to set their video resolution to match the monitor because it makes the
text too small. If you are doing this, make sure the resolution you choose
match the aspect ratio of your monitor. For example, if your monitor has a 4
by 3 aspect ratio, screen resolutions of 800x600, 1024x768 and 1600x1200 all
have a 4 to 3 aspect ratio. I've have posted file that you can use to test
to see if the aspect ratio is wrong. More on this below.

4. MONITOR ADJUSTMENTS. On top of that, you can adjust the width of the
image on the monitor using the monitor's own controls. For example, you
might prefer to have an 1/4 inch border on the right and left side of the
image to make sure you can the you are not cutting off part of the display.
That small gap would change the Aspect Ratio enough to through the survey
angles.

5. MEASURED ANGLES. I loaded the file you posted into Compass and displayed
the file in the Viewer. I then used the "Tools - Measure Distance/Angles"
option to measure the angles of each shot in the cave. The tool allows you
to lock a cursor on each survey station ("Nearest Station" button) so the
measurements are extremely accurate. When I do this, the angles exactly
match the compass angles in the survey data.

This tools measures angles mathematically by calculating difference between
the locations of each point on the screen. The key thing is that it is NOT
measuring it visually, so it ignores all kinds of resolution, scaling and
aspect ratio issues.

This is something you can do too and it would give us more information to
isolate the cause. Let me know if you need help using the tool.

I have uploaded a file to the Compass Group called "Cross.plt." You should
download it and double click on it. If Compass is installed properly, the
Viewer will automatically open the file. The image will display a cross with
equal length arms. (Be sure to expand the Viewer to full screen and zoom out
a bit so you can see the ends of the cross arms.) If you measure the cross
arms on the screen and they aren't equal, then the problem is probably
caused because the video resolution settings don't match your monitor.

It would also be useful to know more about your computer. What type of
monitor and video card are you using, what resolution your are running and
what operating system have you got? 

Larry

________________________________________
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of RyanY
Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 2:27 PM
Subject: [compass-users] Cave Viewer inconsistently renders incorrect angles

 
Hi All! I apologize if I'm asking something that's already been asked, but
I've searched both this forum and the archives and couldn't find a similar
problem.

My friend has over 6300 feet of survey data in Compass for a cave he's been
working on. He recently bought a Pocket PC to sketch the cave with using
PocketTopo. I offered to convert his Compass files into PocketTopo files.
When I did, the PocketTopo plot looked a little different. I overlayed the
Compass plot with the PocketTopo plot, and they definitely were different. I
assumed it was an error of mine during file manipulation. I decided to
determine the source of the error, so I made brand new survey files in
Compass and PocketTopo *using only front sights* and *the exact same data*.
Somehow, the plots were STILL different! So, I pulled out my transparent
cave survey protractor and began measuring. Lo and behold, the Compass plot
had some angles that were incorrect! I verified that I was in the plan view,
so it's not that I was looking at the plot from a skewed view. Exporting to
bitmap still gives me the wrong angles. What's interesting is that when I
print the plot out, the angles SUDDENLY BECOME CORRECT!

Do you guys have any ideas?? I suppose this could be some sort of incorrect
setting, but surely there isn't a setting to make the angles appear
different that what they should be? Could this be some sort of software bug?
I have version 5.11.1.1.165

Here are some pictures of the plots: 
http://forums.caves.org/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=11762&p=101230#p101098

Thanks for any help you can give. 

mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://link.mail2web.com/mail2web


Messsage #: 263
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 14:32:00 -0000
From: "RyanY" 
Subject: Re: Cave Viewer inconsistently renders incorrect angles

Larry et al,

Thank you for the quick response!

I neglected to mention that when I "printed" the cave plot, I actually printed to PDF (via CutePDF), not on paper. I would have thought that if it were an issue with an incorrect screen setting, the PDF plot should also show incorrect angles, but as far as I can tell the PDF plot is entirely accurate.

Another thing worth mentioning is that when someone sends me a bitmap screen image from their computer of the same survey data the plot looks perfect to me, but when I make a bitmap screen image with my computer the plot remains incorrect.

Admittedly, my screen is of oddball proportions (WXGA), but I am a resolution "purist" and always make sure to have my screen set at the maximum, undistorted resolution possible. My screen is 14" (diagonal) and is set to 1280x768 pixels. I believe with these settings, everything is 1:1 (no distortion). Finally, it appears that the monitor adjustment is such that there is no black space between or extension beyond the screen borders (the screen has been automatically adjusted).

My graphics card is actually the integrated rubbish that comes standard with most low end computers (Intel 82852/82855 GM/GME, Intel Extreme Graphics 2), but it usually does the job just fine. My operating system is XP Home Edition, 2002, SP3. I've verified that my driver is the most up to date there is.

Perhaps unsurprisingly, I opened your cross.plt file and the N-S lengths were indeed shorter than the W-E lengths (approximately a 4:5 ratio). Of course, the PDF plot lengths measured to be equal. I used the distance tool and the program told me they were the same lengths, so Compass thinks it's showing me an accurate plot.

I am not entirely sure what the cause of my problem is, but at the moment I am of the opinion that Compass may have rendering issues with my particular resolution.

Does anyone else have the newest Compass version and have a WXGA monitor that can confirm or deny my theory? It would also be interesting to see if running an older Compass version on my computer would produce the same distorted plot.

Thanks again for all your help guys, and I hope this problem can be solved so I can use this fantastic program with confidence!

:

 I ran into the aspect ratio problem when I was taking screen shots from the
 Compass viewer. I intended to get into my graphics card controls to see if
 I could correct it. As it happened, I first updated my ATI graphic card
 driver, and that fixed the problem.
 
 The easiest test is to create a couple of fake shots, both the same length,
 one north-south and the other east-west. Get a screen shot into Photoshop
 and compare the pixel length.
 
 Dwight
 
 Original Message:
 -----------------
 From: Larry Fish [email protected]
 Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 03:46:32 -0600
 To: [email protected]
 Subject: RE: [compass-users] Cave Viewer inconsistently renders incorrect
 angles
 
 Ryan,
 
 Thanks for your email and questions. I've down loaded your files and images
 and spent some time looking at them. I think this is probably an "aspect
 ratio" issue, but I don't have quite enough information to be sure. 
 
 I'm going to give you a fairly large "brain-dump" so you can understand the
 issues and focus on certain details.
 
 This statement gives me a clue:
 
  What's interesting is that when I print the plot out, the
  angles SUDDENLY BECOME CORRECT!
 
 Compass uses exactly the same subroutines to print a file and display a file
 on the screen, so that rules out a mathematical or graphics error inside
 Compass. The most likely cause is the display and how it is setup,
 especially things that the "Aspect Ratio." Here is a detailed explanation of
 the issues:
 
 1. PRINTERS. When you print a cave plot, the printer uses an exact number of
 Pixels per inch in the left-right and up-down direction. As a result, when
 you print a line that is supposed to be 1-inch long, it will be 1-inch long
 on the paper. That's why your print out has the correct angles.
 
 2. SCREEN SCALING. The screen is different. Its scale and resolution are
 based on a several extraneous factors. For example, Windows assumes the
 screen has a certain resolution. Typically, it is 96 Dots Per Inch (DPI),
 but it can be other values. If Windows is set to 96 DPI, it doesn't really
 mean that a line 96 dots long will really be 1-inch long. The actual size
 depends on the Resolution of the monitor, the size of the monitor, the video
 card settings and how the monitor is adjusted. 
 
 For example, let's say you have a monitor whose screen is 16 inches wide. If
 your video card is set to a resolution of 1024 by 768, there will be 1024
 pixels across the 16 inch width of the screen. That means that the actual
 scale is 64 dpi so a 96 pixel lines would actually be 1.5 inches long on the
 screen. If you change the video mode to 2048 by 1536, the actual screen DPI
 will now be 128 dpi and the 96 pixel line will only be 0.75-inch long. The
 important thing to understand is that, unlike the printer, the monitors
 scale and resolution depends of many factors and the computer can't control
 all of them.
 
 3. ASPECT RATIO. The problem gets more complicated because different
 monitors have different "aspect ratios." For example, on an old style
 non-HiDef monitor the "Aspect Ratio" is 4 to 3. That means that the ratio of
 the width to the height is 4 to 3. Newer, high def monitors have aspect
 ratios of 16 to 9. Some of the very newest monitors have aspect ratios of 16
 to 10.
 
 When you setup your computer for a particular monitor, you must select a
 screen resolution that matches your monitor. If you don't, the pixels will
 be stretched or squashed horizontally or vertically. If this happens, the
 pixels won't be "Square" and the image will be distorted. The angles between
 lines will be distorted. This is the most likely cause of the problem you
 are seeing. 
 
 The first thing I would try is to check the monitor's resolution and make
 sure your video card was set for a matching resolution. Some people don't
 like to set their video resolution to match the monitor because it makes the
 text too small. If you are doing this, make sure the resolution you choose
 match the aspect ratio of your monitor. For example, if your monitor has a 4
 by 3 aspect ratio, screen resolutions of 800x600, 1024x768 and 1600x1200 all
 have a 4 to 3 aspect ratio. I've have posted file that you can use to test
 to see if the aspect ratio is wrong. More on this below.
 
 4. MONITOR ADJUSTMENTS. On top of that, you can adjust the width of the
 image on the monitor using the monitor's own controls. For example, you
 might prefer to have an 1/4 inch border on the right and left side of the
 image to make sure you can the you are not cutting off part of the display.
 That small gap would change the Aspect Ratio enough to through the survey
 angles.
 
 5. MEASURED ANGLES. I loaded the file you posted into Compass and displayed
 the file in the Viewer. I then used the "Tools - Measure Distance/Angles"
 option to measure the angles of each shot in the cave. The tool allows you
 to lock a cursor on each survey station ("Nearest Station" button) so the
 measurements are extremely accurate. When I do this, the angles exactly
 match the compass angles in the survey data.
 
 This tools measures angles mathematically by calculating difference between
 the locations of each point on the screen. The key thing is that it is NOT
 measuring it visually, so it ignores all kinds of resolution, scaling and
 aspect ratio issues.
 
 This is something you can do too and it would give us more information to
 isolate the cause. Let me know if you need help using the tool.
 
 I have uploaded a file to the Compass Group called "Cross.plt." You should
 download it and double click on it. If Compass is installed properly, the
 Viewer will automatically open the file. The image will display a cross with
 equal length arms. (Be sure to expand the Viewer to full screen and zoom out
 a bit so you can see the ends of the cross arms.) If you measure the cross
 arms on the screen and they aren't equal, then the problem is probably
 caused because the video resolution settings don't match your monitor.
 
 It would also be useful to know more about your computer. What type of
 monitor and video card are you using, what resolution your are running and
 what operating system have you got? 
 
 Larry
 
 ________________________________________
 From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
 On Behalf Of RyanY
 Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 2:27 PM
 To: [email protected]
 Subject: [compass-users] Cave Viewer inconsistently renders incorrect angles
 
  
 Hi All! I apologize if I'm asking something that's already been asked, but
 I've searched both this forum and the archives and couldn't find a similar
 problem.
 
 My friend has over 6300 feet of survey data in Compass for a cave he's been
 working on. He recently bought a Pocket PC to sketch the cave with using
 PocketTopo. I offered to convert his Compass files into PocketTopo files.
 When I did, the PocketTopo plot looked a little different. I overlayed the
 Compass plot with the PocketTopo plot, and they definitely were different. I
 assumed it was an error of mine during file manipulation. I decided to
 determine the source of the error, so I made brand new survey files in
 Compass and PocketTopo *using only front sights* and *the exact same data*.
 Somehow, the plots were STILL different! So, I pulled out my transparent
 cave survey protractor and began measuring. Lo and behold, the Compass plot
 had some angles that were incorrect! I verified that I was in the plan view,
 so it's not that I was looking at the plot from a skewed view. Exporting to
 bitmap still gives me the wrong angles. What's interesting is that when I
 print the plot out, the angles SUDDENLY BECOME CORRECT!
 
 Do you guys have any ideas?? I suppose this could be some sort of incorrect
 setting, but surely there isn't a setting to make the angles appear
 different that what they should be? Could this be some sort of software bug?
 I have version 5.11.1.1.165
 
 Here are some pictures of the plots: 
 http://forums.caves.org/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=11762&p=101230#p101098
 
 Thanks for any help you can give. 
 
 --------------------------------------------------------------------
 mail2web - Check your email from the web at
 http://link.mail2web.com/mail2web


Messsage #: 264
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 11:19:04 -0400
From: Tony Canike 
Subject: Re: [compass-users] Re: Cave Viewer inconsistently renders incorrect angles

Ryan,

What happens when you draw a cross with equal length lines in another program (Visio, Inkscape, OOo Draw, Illustrator) ?

Are the lines displayed equally long on your monitor?

Tony. 

On Mar 18, 2011, at 10:32 AM, "RyanY"  wrote:

 Larry et al,
 
 Thank you for the quick response!
 
 I neglected to mention that when I "printed" the cave plot, I actually printed to PDF (via CutePDF), not on paper. I would have thought that if it were an issue with an incorrect screen setting, the PDF plot should also show incorrect angles, but as far as I can tell the PDF plot is entirely accurate.
 
 Another thing worth mentioning is that when someone sends me a bitmap screen image from their computer of the same survey data the plot looks perfect to me, but when I make a bitmap screen image with my computer the plot remains incorrect.
 
 Admittedly, my screen is of oddball proportions (WXGA), but I am a resolution "purist" and always make sure to have my screen set at the maximum, undistorted resolution possible. My screen is 14" (diagonal) and is set to 1280x768 pixels. I believe with these settings, everything is 1:1 (no distortion). Finally, it appears that the monitor adjustment is such that there is no black space between or extension beyond the screen borders (the screen has been automatically adjusted).
 
 My graphics card is actually the integrated rubbish that comes standard with most low end computers (Intel 82852/82855 GM/GME, Intel Extreme Graphics 2), but it usually does the job just fine. My operating system is XP Home Edition, 2002, SP3. I've verified that my driver is the most up to date there is.
 
 Perhaps unsurprisingly, I opened your cross.plt file and the N-S lengths were indeed shorter than the W-E lengths (approximately a 4:5 ratio). Of course, the PDF plot lengths measured to be equal. I used the distance tool and the program told me they were the same lengths, so Compass thinks it's showing me an accurate plot.
 
 I am not entirely sure what the cause of my problem is, but at the moment I am of the opinion that Compass may have rendering issues with my particular resolution.
 
 Does anyone else have the newest Compass version and have a WXGA monitor that can confirm or deny my theory? It would also be interesting to see if running an older Compass version on my computer would produce the same distorted plot.
 
 Thanks again for all your help guys, and I hope this problem can be solved so I can use this fantastic program with confidence!
 
 --- In [email protected], "[email protected]"  wrote:
 
  I ran into the aspect ratio problem when I was taking screen shots from the
  Compass viewer. I intended to get into my graphics card controls to see if
  I could correct it. As it happened, I first updated my ATI graphic card
  driver, and that fixed the problem.
  
  The easiest test is to create a couple of fake shots, both the same length,
  one north-south and the other east-west. Get a screen shot into Photoshop
  and compare the pixel length.
  
  Dwight
  
  Original Message:
  -----------------
  From: Larry Fish [email protected]
  Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 03:46:32 -0600
  To: [email protected]
  Subject: RE: [compass-users] Cave Viewer inconsistently renders incorrect
  angles
  
  Ryan,
  
  Thanks for your email and questions. I've down loaded your files and images
  and spent some time looking at them. I think this is probably an "aspect
  ratio" issue, but I don't have quite enough information to be sure. 
  
  I'm going to give you a fairly large "brain-dump" so you can understand the
  issues and focus on certain details.
  
  This statement gives me a clue:
  
   What's interesting is that when I print the plot out, the
   angles SUDDENLY BECOME CORRECT!
  
  Compass uses exactly the same subroutines to print a file and display a file
  on the screen, so that rules out a mathematical or graphics error inside
  Compass. The most likely cause is the display and how it is setup,
  especially things that the "Aspect Ratio." Here is a detailed explanation of
  the issues:
  
  1. PRINTERS. When you print a cave plot, the printer uses an exact number of
  Pixels per inch in the left-right and up-down direction. As a result, when
  you print a line that is supposed to be 1-inch long, it will be 1-inch long
  on the paper. That's why your print out has the correct angles.
  
  2. SCREEN SCALING. The screen is different. Its scale and resolution are
  based on a several extraneous factors. For example, Windows assumes the
  screen has a certain resolution. Typically, it is 96 Dots Per Inch (DPI),
  but it can be other values. If Windows is set to 96 DPI, it doesn't really
  mean that a line 96 dots long will really be 1-inch long. The actual size
  depends on the Resolution of the monitor, the size of the monitor, the video
  card settings and how the monitor is adjusted. 
  
  For example, let's say you have a monitor whose screen is 16 inches wide. If
  your video card is set to a resolution of 1024 by 768, there will be 1024
  pixels across the 16 inch width of the screen. That means that the actual
  scale is 64 dpi so a 96 pixel lines would actually be 1.5 inches long on the
  screen. If you change the video mode to 2048 by 1536, the actual screen DPI
  will now be 128 dpi and the 96 pixel line will only be 0.75-inch long. The
  important thing to understand is that, unlike the printer, the monitors
  scale and resolution depends of many factors and the computer can't control
  all of them.
  
  3. ASPECT RATIO. The problem gets more complicated because different
  monitors have different "aspect ratios." For example, on an old style
  non-HiDef monitor the "Aspect Ratio" is 4 to 3. That means that the ratio of
  the width to the height is 4 to 3. Newer, high def monitors have aspect
  ratios of 16 to 9. Some of the very newest monitors have aspect ratios of 16
  to 10.
  
  When you setup your computer for a particular monitor, you must select a
  screen resolution that matches your monitor. If you don't, the pixels will
  be stretched or squashed horizontally or vertically. If this happens, the
  pixels won't be "Square" and the image will be distorted. The angles between
  lines will be distorted. This is the most likely cause of the problem you
  are seeing. 
  
  The first thing I would try is to check the monitor's resolution and make
  sure your video card was set for a matching resolution. Some people don't
  like to set their video resolution to match the monitor because it makes the
  text too small. If you are doing this, make sure the resolution you choose
  match the aspect ratio of your monitor. For example, if your monitor has a 4
  by 3 aspect ratio, screen resolutions of 800x600, 1024x768 and 1600x1200 all
  have a 4 to 3 aspect ratio. I've have posted file that you can use to test
  to see if the aspect ratio is wrong. More on this below.
  
  4. MONITOR ADJUSTMENTS. On top of that, you can adjust the width of the
  image on the monitor using the monitor's own controls. For example, you
  might prefer to have an 1/4 inch border on the right and left side of the
  image to make sure you can the you are not cutting off part of the display.
  That small gap would change the Aspect Ratio enough to through the survey
  angles.
  
  5. MEASURED ANGLES. I loaded the file you posted into Compass and displayed
  the file in the Viewer. I then used the "Tools - Measure Distance/Angles"
  option to measure the angles of each shot in the cave. The tool allows you
  to lock a cursor on each survey station ("Nearest Station" button) so the
  measurements are extremely accurate. When I do this, the angles exactly
  match the compass angles in the survey data.
  
  This tools measures angles mathematically by calculating difference between
  the locations of each point on the screen. The key thing is that it is NOT
  measuring it visually, so it ignores all kinds of resolution, scaling and
  aspect ratio issues.
  
  This is something you can do too and it would give us more information to
  isolate the cause. Let me know if you need help using the tool.
  
  I have uploaded a file to the Compass Group called "Cross.plt." You should
  download it and double click on it. If Compass is installed properly, the
  Viewer will automatically open the file. The image will display a cross with
  equal length arms. (Be sure to expand the Viewer to full screen and zoom out
  a bit so you can see the ends of the cross arms.) If you measure the cross
  arms on the screen and they aren't equal, then the problem is probably
  caused because the video resolution settings don't match your monitor.
  
  It would also be useful to know more about your computer. What type of
  monitor and video card are you using, what resolution your are running and
  what operating system have you got? 
  
  Larry
  
  ________________________________________
  From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
  On Behalf Of RyanY
  Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 2:27 PM
  To: [email protected]
  Subject: [compass-users] Cave Viewer inconsistently renders incorrect angles
    
  Hi All! I apologize if I'm asking something that's already been asked, but
  I've searched both this forum and the archives and couldn't find a similar
  problem.
  
  My friend has over 6300 feet of survey data in Compass for a cave he's been
  working on. He recently bought a Pocket PC to sketch the cave with using
  PocketTopo. I offered to convert his Compass files into PocketTopo files.
  When I did, the PocketTopo plot looked a little different. I overlayed the
  Compass plot with the PocketTopo plot, and they definitely were different. I
  assumed it was an error of mine during file manipulation. I decided to
  determine the source of the error, so I made brand new survey files in
  Compass and PocketTopo *using only front sights* and *the exact same data*.
  Somehow, the plots were STILL different! So, I pulled out my transparent
  cave survey protractor and began measuring. Lo and behold, the Compass plot
  had some angles that were incorrect! I verified that I was in the plan view,
  so it's not that I was looking at the plot from a skewed view. Exporting to
  bitmap still gives me the wrong angles. What's interesting is that when I
  print the plot out, the angles SUDDENLY BECOME CORRECT!
  
  Do you guys have any ideas?? I suppose this could be some sort of incorrect
  setting, but surely there isn't a setting to make the angles appear
  different that what they should be? Could this be some sort of software bug?
  I have version 5.11.1.1.165
  
  Here are some pictures of the plots: 
  http://forums.caves.org/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=11762&p=101230#p101098
  
  Thanks for any help you can give. 
  
  ----------------------------------------------------------
  mail2web - Check your email from the web at
  http://link.mail2web.com/mail2web

Ryan,What happens when you draw a cross with equal length lines in another program (Visio, Inkscape, OOo Draw, Illustrator) ?Are the lines displayed equally long on your monitor?Tony. On Mar 18, 2011, at 10:32 AM, "RyanY" <[email protected]> wrote:

 
      
      Larry et al,

Thank you for the quick response!

I neglected to mention that when I "printed" the cave plot, I actually printed to PDF (via CutePDF), not on paper. I would have thought that if it were an issue with an incorrect screen setting, the PDF plot should also show incorrect angles, but as far as I can tell the PDF plot is entirely accurate.

Another thing worth mentioning is that when someone sends me a bitmap screen image from their computer of the same survey data the plot looks perfect to me, but when I make a bitmap screen image with my computer the plot remains incorrect.

Admittedly, my screen is of oddball proportions (WXGA), but I am a resolution "purist" and always make sure to have my screen set at the maximum, undistorted resolution possible. My screen is 14" (diagonal) and is set to 1280x768 pixels. I believe with these settings, everything is 1:1 (no distortion). Finally, it appears that the monitor adjustment is such that there is no black space between or extension beyond the screen borders (the screen has been automatically adjusted).

My graphics card is actually the integrated rubbish that comes standard with most low end computers (Intel 82852/82855 GM/GME, Intel Extreme Graphics 2), but it usually does the job just fine. My operating system is XP Home Edition, 2002, SP3. I've verified that my driver is the most up to date there is.

Perhaps unsurprisingly, I opened your cross.plt file and the N-S lengths were indeed shorter than the W-E lengths (approximately a 4:5 ratio). Of course, the PDF plot lengths measured to be equal. I used the distance tool and the program told me they were the same lengths, so Compass thinks it's showing me an accurate plot.

I am not entirely sure what the cause of my problem is, but at the moment I am of the opinion that Compass may have rendering issues with my particular resolution.

Does anyone else have the newest Compass version and have a WXGA monitor that can confirm or deny my theory? It would also be interesting to see if running an older Compass version on my computer would produce the same distorted plot.

Thanks again for all your help guys, and I hope this problem can be solved so I can use this fantastic program with confidence!

:[email protected]"[email protected], "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> I ran into the aspect ratio problem when I was taking screen shots from the
> Compass viewer. I intended to get into my graphics card controls to see if
> I could correct it. As it happened, I first updated my ATI graphic card
> driver, and that fixed the problem.
> 
> The easiest test is to create a couple of fake shots, both the same length,
> one north-south and the other east-west. Get a screen shot into Photoshop
> and compare the pixel length.
> 
> Dwight
> 
> 
> Original Message:
> -----------------
> From: Larry Fish [email protected]
> Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 03:46:32 -0600
> To: 


Messsage #: 265
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 15:52:47 -0000
From: "RyanY" 
Subject: Re: Cave Viewer inconsistently renders incorrect angles

Tony,

I had none of those programs on my computer, so I went ahead and installed Inkscape. I have absolutely no experience with it so I may have drawn lines incorrectly, but I went to "Draw bezier curves and straight lines", chose the "Create a sequence of paraxial line segments" mode, created a 90 straight line in the positive y-direction for a distance of 100 px, then made another 90 straight line in the positive x-direction for a distance of 100 px. Measuring these two line segments, I found that both lines were equally long on my monitor.

G&

 Ryan,
 
 What happens when you draw a cross with equal length lines in another program (Visio, Inkscape, OOo Draw, Illustrator) ?
 
 Are the lines displayed equally long on your monitor?
 
 Tony. 
 
 On Mar 18, 2011, at 10:32 AM, "RyanY"  wrote:
 
  Larry et al,
  
  Thank you for the quick response!
  
  I neglected to mention that when I "printed" the cave plot, I actually printed to PDF (via CutePDF), not on paper. I would have thought that if it were an issue with an incorrect screen setting, the PDF plot should also show incorrect angles, but as far as I can tell the PDF plot is entirely accurate.
  
  Another thing worth mentioning is that when someone sends me a bitmap screen image from their computer of the same survey data the plot looks perfect to me, but when I make a bitmap screen image with my computer the plot remains incorrect.
  
  Admittedly, my screen is of oddball proportions (WXGA), but I am a resolution "purist" and always make sure to have my screen set at the maximum, undistorted resolution possible. My screen is 14" (diagonal) and is set to 1280x768 pixels. I believe with these settings, everything is 1:1 (no distortion). Finally, it appears that the monitor adjustment is such that there is no black space between or extension beyond the screen borders (the screen has been automatically adjusted).
  
  My graphics card is actually the integrated rubbish that comes standard with most low end computers (Intel 82852/82855 GM/GME, Intel Extreme Graphics 2), but it usually does the job just fine. My operating system is XP Home Edition, 2002, SP3. I've verified that my driver is the most up to date there is.
  
  Perhaps unsurprisingly, I opened your cross.plt file and the N-S lengths were indeed shorter than the W-E lengths (approximately a 4:5 ratio). Of course, the PDF plot lengths measured to be equal. I used the distance tool and the program told me they were the same lengths, so Compass thinks it's showing me an accurate plot.
  
  I am not entirely sure what the cause of my problem is, but at the moment I am of the opinion that Compass may have rendering issues with my particular resolution.
  
  Does anyone else have the newest Compass version and have a WXGA monitor that can confirm or deny my theory? It would also be interesting to see if running an older Compass version on my computer would produce the same distorted plot.
  
  Thanks again for all your help guys, and I hope this problem can be solved so I can use this fantastic program with confidence!
  
  --- In [email protected], "[email protected]"  wrote:
  
   I ran into the aspect ratio problem when I was taking screen shots from the
   Compass viewer. I intended to get into my graphics card controls to see if
   I could correct it. As it happened, I first updated my ATI graphic card
   driver, and that fixed the problem.
   
   The easiest test is to create a couple of fake shots, both the same length,
   one north-south and the other east-west. Get a screen shot into Photoshop
   and compare the pixel length.
   
   Dwight
   
   Original Message:
   -----------------
   From: Larry Fish [email protected]
   Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 03:46:32 -0600
   To: [email protected]
   Subject: RE: [compass-users] Cave Viewer inconsistently renders incorrect
   angles
   
   Ryan,
   
   Thanks for your email and questions. I've down loaded your files and images
   and spent some time looking at them. I think this is probably an "aspect
   ratio" issue, but I don't have quite enough information to be sure. 
   
   I'm going to give you a fairly large "brain-dump" so you can understand the
   issues and focus on certain details.
   
   This statement gives me a clue:
   
    What's interesting is that when I print the plot out, the
    angles SUDDENLY BECOME CORRECT!
   
   Compass uses exactly the same subroutines to print a file and display a file
   on the screen, so that rules out a mathematical or graphics error inside
   Compass. The most likely cause is the display and how it is setup,
   especially things that the "Aspect Ratio." Here is a detailed explanation of
   the issues:
   
   1. PRINTERS. When you print a cave plot, the printer uses an exact number of
   Pixels per inch in the left-right and up-down direction. As a result, when
   you print a line that is supposed to be 1-inch long, it will be 1-inch long
   on the paper. That's why your print out has the correct angles.
   
   2. SCREEN SCALING. The screen is different. Its scale and resolution are
   based on a several extraneous factors. For example, Windows assumes the
   screen has a certain resolution. Typically, it is 96 Dots Per Inch (DPI),
   but it can be other values. If Windows is set to 96 DPI, it doesn't really
   mean that a line 96 dots long will really be 1-inch long. The actual size
   depends on the Resolution of the monitor, the size of the monitor, the video
   card settings and how the monitor is adjusted. 
   
   For example, let's say you have a monitor whose screen is 16 inches wide. If
   your video card is set to a resolution of 1024 by 768, there will be 1024
   pixels across the 16 inch width of the screen. That means that the actual
   scale is 64 dpi so a 96 pixel lines would actually be 1.5 inches long on the
   screen. If you change the video mode to 2048 by 1536, the actual screen DPI
   will now be 128 dpi and the 96 pixel line will only be 0.75-inch long. The
   important thing to understand is that, unlike the printer, the monitors
   scale and resolution depends of many factors and the computer can't control
   all of them.
   
   3. ASPECT RATIO. The problem gets more complicated because different
   monitors have different "aspect ratios." For example, on an old style
   non-HiDef monitor the "Aspect Ratio" is 4 to 3. That means that the ratio of
   the width to the height is 4 to 3. Newer, high def monitors have aspect
   ratios of 16 to 9. Some of the very newest monitors have aspect ratios of 16
   to 10.
   
   When you setup your computer for a particular monitor, you must select a
   screen resolution that matches your monitor. If you don't, the pixels will
   be stretched or squashed horizontally or vertically. If this happens, the
   pixels won't be "Square" and the image will be distorted. The angles between
   lines will be distorted. This is the most likely cause of the problem you
   are seeing. 
   
   The first thing I would try is to check the monitor's resolution and make
   sure your video card was set for a matching resolution. Some people don't
   like to set their video resolution to match the monitor because it makes the
   text too small. If you are doing this, make sure the resolution you choose
   match the aspect ratio of your monitor. For example, if your monitor has a 4
   by 3 aspect ratio, screen resolutions of 800x600, 1024x768 and 1600x1200 all
   have a 4 to 3 aspect ratio. I've have posted file that you can use to test
   to see if the aspect ratio is wrong. More on this below.
   
   4. MONITOR ADJUSTMENTS. On top of that, you can adjust the width of the
   image on the monitor using the monitor's own controls. For example, you
   might prefer to have an 1/4 inch border on the right and left side of the
   image to make sure you can the you are not cutting off part of the display.
   That small gap would change the Aspect Ratio enough to through the survey
   angles.
   
   5. MEASURED ANGLES. I loaded the file you posted into Compass and displayed
   the file in the Viewer. I then used the "Tools - Measure Distance/Angles"
   option to measure the angles of each shot in the cave. The tool allows you
   to lock a cursor on each survey station ("Nearest Station" button) so the
   measurements are extremely accurate. When I do this, the angles exactly
   match the compass angles in the survey data.
   
   This tools measures angles mathematically by calculating difference between
   the locations of each point on the screen. The key thing is that it is NOT
   measuring it visually, so it ignores all kinds of resolution, scaling and
   aspect ratio issues.
   
   This is something you can do too and it would give us more information to
   isolate the cause. Let me know if you need help using the tool.
   
   I have uploaded a file to the Compass Group called "Cross.plt." You should
   download it and double click on it. If Compass is installed properly, the
   Viewer will automatically open the file. The image will display a cross with
   equal length arms. (Be sure to expand the Viewer to full screen and zoom out
   a bit so you can see the ends of the cross arms.) If you measure the cross
   arms on the screen and they aren't equal, then the problem is probably
   caused because the video resolution settings don't match your monitor.
   
   It would also be useful to know more about your computer. What type of
   monitor and video card are you using, what resolution your are running and
   what operating system have you got? 
   
   Larry
   
   ________________________________________
   From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
   On Behalf Of RyanY
   Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 2:27 PM
   To: [email protected]
   Subject: [compass-users] Cave Viewer inconsistently renders incorrect angles
     
   Hi All! I apologize if I'm asking something that's already been asked, but
   I've searched both this forum and the archives and couldn't find a similar
   problem.
   
   My friend has over 6300 feet of survey data in Compass for a cave he's been
   working on. He recently bought a Pocket PC to sketch the cave with using
   PocketTopo. I offered to convert his Compass files into PocketTopo files.
   When I did, the PocketTopo plot looked a little different. I overlayed the
   Compass plot with the PocketTopo plot, and they definitely were different. I
   assumed it was an error of mine during file manipulation. I decided to
   determine the source of the error, so I made brand new survey files in
   Compass and PocketTopo *using only front sights* and *the exact same data*.
   Somehow, the plots were STILL different! So, I pulled out my transparent
   cave survey protractor and began measuring. Lo and behold, the Compass plot
   had some angles that were incorrect! I verified that I was in the plan view,
   so it's not that I was looking at the plot from a skewed view. Exporting to
   bitmap still gives me the wrong angles. What's interesting is that when I
   print the plot out, the angles SUDDENLY BECOME CORRECT!
   
   Do you guys have any ideas?? I suppose this could be some sort of incorrect
   setting, but surely there isn't a setting to make the angles appear
   different that what they should be? Could this be some sort of software bug?
   I have version 5.11.1.1.165
   
   Here are some pictures of the plots: 
   http://forums.caves.org/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=11762&p=101230#p101098
   
   Thanks for any help you can give. 
   
   ----------------------------------------------------------
   mail2web - Check your email from the web at
   http://link.mail2web.com/mail2web


Messsage #: 266
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2011 02:21:54 -0600
From: "Larry Fish" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] Re: Cave Viewer inconsistently renders incorrect angles

Ryan,

 I neglected to mention that when I "printed" the cave plot,
 I actually printed to PDF (via CutePDF), not on paper. I
 would have thought that if it were an issue with an
 incorrect screen setting, the PDF plot should also show
 incorrect angles, but as far as I can tell the PDF plot is
 entirely accurate.

To understand my thinking on this problem, I need to explain how Compass
works in a little more detail. When Compass displays a cave on a video
screen or prints it to a printer, it uses one of Windows' standard graphics
modes. Windows allows you to draw lines using one of several different Units
of measure:

Pixels
Inches
Millimeters

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dd162980%28v=vs.85%29.aspx

Compass sets the Units to "Inches". This allows Compass to work in "Paper"
coordinates instead of pixels. That means that Compass doesn't have to know
anything about the display device, its resolution or aspect ratio. Instead,
Windows and the Device driver are responsible for dealing with variations in
devices and translating Inches to whatever units the device uses. This
allows Compass to Display and Print using exactly the same code and, in
theory, the printout and display should match each other exactly.

The technique relies on the fact that the device driver for each device is
responsible performing the calculations necessary to scale the image for the
device. Since the Device Driver has access to all kinds of information about
the display device, printer or video card, it is in a better position to
accurately display the image. Obviously, your printer's device driver is
doing the calculations correctly. 

This suggests that the problem is with the video driver. (I have seen one
other instance where the driver caused a problem with Compass. This was on
an HP large-format color printer, where the HP driver couldn't handle a
print-out larger than 32.76 inches because of a math overflow problem in the
driver.)

The CutePDF probably uses a different method of drawing the image that
bypasses this particular driver mode. I could bypass the driver myself, but
there would be an even bigger risk of problems because I'd have to rely on
what the driver reported about the resolution. If a driver can screw up
displaying Inches, it is just as likely to report erroneous information
about screen resolutions and aspect ratios etc.

 Another thing worth mentioning is that when someone sends me
 a bitmap screen image from their computer of the same survey
 data the plot looks perfect to me, but when I make a bitmap
 screen image with my computer the plot remains incorrect.

Again, that is another indication that the device driver is not handling the
situation correctly. Your cave displays perfectly on my computer and if I
use Compass to measure the angles, they are perfect.

Another thing you might want to try is to check the "Save Screen Image"
option to export a bitmap. You've probably already used it, but it is
important to note that there are two different modes operation. If you
haven't, it is under the "File" menu option. Here are the two modes of
operation:

1. UNSCALED. If the "Scaled Checkbox" is NOT enabled, the Viewer makes a
direct copy of what appears on the screen and saves it as a bitmap. This is
the default mode.

2. SCALED. If the "Scaled Checkbox" is enabled, the Viewer plots directly on
a bitmap. This bypasses the video screen and video drivers, so it is a good
test. 

If the second option exports correctly and the first one does not, it is a
further indication that there is a driver problem.

Also, if you saw Dwight's earlier post, he had similar problem that he
solved by updating the device driver. That lends credibility to the idea
that the device driver is causing the problem.

 Admittedly, my screen is of oddball proportions (WXGA), but
 I am a resolution "purist" and always make sure to have my
 screen set at the maximum, undistorted resolution possible.
 My screen is 14" (diagonal) and is set to 1280x768 pixels. I
 believe with these settings, everything is 1:1 (no
 distortion). Finally, it appears that the monitor adjustment
 is such that there is no black space between or extension
 beyond the screen borders (the screen has been automatically
 adjusted).

The 14-inch diagonal number doesn't tell me what aspect ratio your screen
is. I need both the Length and Width to know that. Here are the most common
aspect ratios:

4:3 = 1.33333
16:9 = 1.777777
16:10 (8:5) = 1.6

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspect_ratio_(image)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/16:10

You've set your video mode to:

1280x768 = 1.6666666

This corresponds to a 15:9 (5:3). 15:9 is a relatively uncommon aspect
ratio. If your video screen is not actually 15:9, then using a 1280x768
resolution will certainly distort the image. If the screen is actually 15:9,
the fact that it is fairly non-standard could be a problem.

The Wikipedia article on WXGA seems to indicate that using 1280x768 mode on
a WXGA card will result in "Non-Square" pixels. That also could be causing
your problem. From the Wikipedia article:

"1280x720 provides perfectly square pixels at an aspect ratio
of 16:9, while the additional pixels in 1280x768 and
1280x800 must be ignored to give the 16:9 ratio without
vertical stretching of the image."

If the device driver has to ignore pixels to get an unstretched image, that
makes me suspicious.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphic_display_resolutions

WXGA supports several other resolutions that might work better:

1280x720 - 16:9 
1280x768 - 15:9 (5:3) 
1280x800 - 16:10 (8:5) 
1360x768 - 16:9 (approx.) 
1366x768 - 16:9 (approx.) 

Manufacturers typical spend less time and energy writing driver for
non-standard modes. They also use special tricks to make them work. For
example, I've seen drivers that skip points and don't display every pixel.
They will also duplicate pixels. All this is done to force a certain number
pixels to fit within a certain amount of space.

For example, if the video frame buffer has 720 pixels but it needs to
display 768 pixels, it will be 48 pixels short. Duplicating every 15 pixel
will make up the difference, and wouldn't be particularly noticeable in
ordinary applications. However, duplicating those pixels would stretch the
image by about 6%, which would cause noticeable distortions in a program
like Compass.

Over the years I've experienced lots of problems with Graphics drivers, even
on Mainstream Video cards like NVidia and ATI. None of them affected Compass
per se, but they would produce odd screen anomalies that were eventually
fixed when the drivers were updated.

The chips for your graphics adapter were originally released in 2005 and the
last driver update from Intel is 2006, so it's been at least 5 years since
Intel worked on them. 

http://www.intel.com/support/graphics/intel852gm/sb/cs-009059.htm

There are quite a few reports on the internet about driver problems for your
graphics chips. For example, here is one from 2007 (well after your last
driver update,) where the complaint is about screen stretching:

http://forums.techguy.org/hardware/620734-strange-problem-intel-82852-82855-
a.html

Others:

http://www.sevenforums.com/drivers/3128-intel-82852-82855-gm-gme-graphics-co
ntroller-driver-issues.html
http://social.technet.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/itprovistahardware/thread/6
80b3aa5-7614-45ef-b213-feebf40bc232/

 Perhaps unsurprisingly, I opened your cross.plt file and
 the N-S lengths were indeed shorter than the W-E lengths
 (approximately a 4:5 ratio). Of course, the PDF plot lengths
 measured to be equal. I used the distance tool and the
 program told me they were the same lengths, so Compass
 thinks it's showing me an accurate plot.

That pretty much verifies that the problem is occurring somewhere between
Windows and the graphic card. That makes it very likely that it is the
driver.

Let me know if you have any other questions or thoughts. 

Larry

________________________________________
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of RyanY
Sent: Friday, March 18, 2011 8:32 AM
Subject: [compass-users] Re: Cave Viewer inconsistently renders incorrect
angles

 
Larry et al,

Thank you for the quick response!

I neglected to mention that when I "printed" the cave plot, I actually
printed to PDF (via CutePDF), not on paper. I would have thought that if it
were an issue with an incorrect screen setting, the PDF plot should also
show incorrect angles, but as far as I can tell the PDF plot is entirely
accurate.

Another thing worth mentioning is that when someone sends me a bitmap screen
image from their computer of the same survey data the plot looks perfect to
me, but when I make a bitmap screen image with my computer the plot remains
incorrect.

Admittedly, my screen is of oddball proportions (WXGA), but I am a
resolution "purist" and always make sure to have my screen set at the
maximum, undistorted resolution possible. My screen is 14" (diagonal) and is
set to 1280x768 pixels. I believe with these settings, everything is 1:1 (no
distortion). Finally, it appears that the monitor adjustment is such that
there is no black space between or extension beyond the screen borders (the
screen has been automatically adjusted).

My graphics card is actually the integrated rubbish that comes standard with
most low end computers (Intel 82852/82855 GM/GME, Intel Extreme Graphics 2),
but it usually does the job just fine. My operating system is XP Home
Edition, 2002, SP3. I've verified that my driver is the most up to date
there is.

Perhaps unsurprisingly, I opened your cross.plt file and the N-S lengths
were indeed shorter than the W-E lengths (approximately a 4:5 ratio). Of
course, the PDF plot lengths measured to be equal. I used the distance tool
and the program told me they were the same lengths, so Compass thinks it's
showing me an accurate plot.

I am not entirely sure what the cause of my problem is, but at the moment I
am of the opinion that Compass may have rendering issues with my particular
resolution.

Does anyone else have the newest Compass version and have a WXGA monitor
that can confirm or deny my theory? It would also be interesting to see if
running an older Compass version on my computer would produce the same
distorted plot.

Thanks again for all your help guys, and I hope this problem can be solved
so I can use this fantastic program with confidence!

:

 I ran into the aspect ratio problem when I was taking screen shots from
the
 Compass viewer. I intended to get into my graphics card controls to see if
 I could correct it. As it happened, I first updated my ATI graphic card
 driver, and that fixed the problem.
 
 The easiest test is to create a couple of fake shots, both the same
length,
 one north-south and the other east-west. Get a screen shot into Photoshop
 and compare the pixel length.
 
 Dwight
 
 Original Message:
 -----------------
 From: Larry Fish [email protected]
 Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 03:46:32 -0600
 To: [email protected]
 Subject: RE: [compass-users] Cave Viewer inconsistently renders incorrect
 angles
 
 Ryan,
 
 Thanks for your email and questions. I've down loaded your files and
images
 and spent some time looking at them. I think this is probably an "aspect
 ratio" issue, but I don't have quite enough information to be sure. 
 
 I'm going to give you a fairly large "brain-dump" so you can understand
the
 issues and focus on certain details.
 
 This statement gives me a clue:
 
  What's interesting is that when I print the plot out, the
  angles SUDDENLY BECOME CORRECT!
 
 Compass uses exactly the same subroutines to print a file and display a
file
 on the screen, so that rules out a mathematical or graphics error inside
 Compass. The most likely cause is the display and how it is setup,
 especially things that the "Aspect Ratio." Here is a detailed explanation
of
 the issues:
 
 1. PRINTERS. When you print a cave plot, the printer uses an exact number
of
 Pixels per inch in the left-right and up-down direction. As a result, when
 you print a line that is supposed to be 1-inch long, it will be 1-inch
long
 on the paper. That's why your print out has the correct angles.
 
 2. SCREEN SCALING. The screen is different. Its scale and resolution are
 based on a several extraneous factors. For example, Windows assumes the
 screen has a certain resolution. Typically, it is 96 Dots Per Inch (DPI),
 but it can be other values. If Windows is set to 96 DPI, it doesn't really
 mean that a line 96 dots long will really be 1-inch long. The actual size
 depends on the Resolution of the monitor, the size of the monitor, the
video
 card settings and how the monitor is adjusted. 
 
 For example, let's say you have a monitor whose screen is 16 inches wide.
If
 your video card is set to a resolution of 1024 by 768, there will be 1024
 pixels across the 16 inch width of the screen. That means that the actual
 scale is 64 dpi so a 96 pixel lines would actually be 1.5 inches long on
the
 screen. If you change the video mode to 2048 by 1536, the actual screen
DPI
 will now be 128 dpi and the 96 pixel line will only be 0.75-inch long. The
 important thing to understand is that, unlike the printer, the monitors
 scale and resolution depends of many factors and the computer can't
control
 all of them.
 
 3. ASPECT RATIO. The problem gets more complicated because different
 monitors have different "aspect ratios." For example, on an old style
 non-HiDef monitor the "Aspect Ratio" is 4 to 3. That means that the ratio
of
 the width to the height is 4 to 3. Newer, high def monitors have aspect
 ratios of 16 to 9. Some of the very newest monitors have aspect ratios of
16
 to 10.
 
 When you setup your computer for a particular monitor, you must select a
 screen resolution that matches your monitor. If you don't, the pixels will
 be stretched or squashed horizontally or vertically. If this happens, the
 pixels won't be "Square" and the image will be distorted. The angles
between
 lines will be distorted. This is the most likely cause of the problem you
 are seeing. 
 
 The first thing I would try is to check the monitor's resolution and make
 sure your video card was set for a matching resolution. Some people don't
 like to set their video resolution to match the monitor because it makes
the
 text too small. If you are doing this, make sure the resolution you choose
 match the aspect ratio of your monitor. For example, if your monitor has a
4
 by 3 aspect ratio, screen resolutions of 800x600, 1024x768 and 1600x1200
all
 have a 4 to 3 aspect ratio. I've have posted file that you can use to test
 to see if the aspect ratio is wrong. More on this below.
 
 4. MONITOR ADJUSTMENTS. On top of that, you can adjust the width of the
 image on the monitor using the monitor's own controls. For example, you
 might prefer to have an 1/4 inch border on the right and left side of the
 image to make sure you can the you are not cutting off part of the
display.
 That small gap would change the Aspect Ratio enough to through the survey
 angles.
 
 5. MEASURED ANGLES. I loaded the file you posted into Compass and
displayed
 the file in the Viewer. I then used the "Tools - Measure Distance/Angles"
 option to measure the angles of each shot in the cave. The tool allows you
 to lock a cursor on each survey station ("Nearest Station" button) so the
 measurements are extremely accurate. When I do this, the angles exactly
 match the compass angles in the survey data.
 
 This tools measures angles mathematically by calculating difference
between
 the locations of each point on the screen. The key thing is that it is NOT
 measuring it visually, so it ignores all kinds of resolution, scaling and
 aspect ratio issues.
 
 This is something you can do too and it would give us more information to
 isolate the cause. Let me know if you need help using the tool.
 
 I have uploaded a file to the Compass Group called "Cross.plt." You should
 download it and double click on it. If Compass is installed properly, the
 Viewer will automatically open the file. The image will display a cross
with
 equal length arms. (Be sure to expand the Viewer to full screen and zoom
out
 a bit so you can see the ends of the cross arms.) If you measure the cross
 arms on the screen and they aren't equal, then the problem is probably
 caused because the video resolution settings don't match your monitor.
 
 It would also be useful to know more about your computer. What type of
 monitor and video card are you using, what resolution your are running and
 what operating system have you got? 
 
 Larry
 
 ________________________________________
 From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
 On Behalf Of RyanY
 Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 2:27 PM
 To: [email protected]
 Subject: [compass-users] Cave Viewer inconsistently renders incorrect
angles
 
  
 Hi All! I apologize if I'm asking something that's already been asked, but
 I've searched both this forum and the archives and couldn't find a similar
 problem.
 
 My friend has over 6300 feet of survey data in Compass for a cave he's
been
 working on. He recently bought a Pocket PC to sketch the cave with using
 PocketTopo. I offered to convert his Compass files into PocketTopo files.
 When I did, the PocketTopo plot looked a little different. I overlayed the
 Compass plot with the PocketTopo plot, and they definitely were different.
I
 assumed it was an error of mine during file manipulation. I decided to
 determine the source of the error, so I made brand new survey files in
 Compass and PocketTopo *using only front sights* and *the exact same
data*.
 Somehow, the plots were STILL different! So, I pulled out my transparent
 cave survey protractor and began measuring. Lo and behold, the Compass
plot
 had some angles that were incorrect! I verified that I was in the plan
view,
 so it's not that I was looking at the plot from a skewed view. Exporting
to
 bitmap still gives me the wrong angles. What's interesting is that when I
 print the plot out, the angles SUDDENLY BECOME CORRECT!
 
 Do you guys have any ideas?? I suppose this could be some sort of
incorrect
 setting, but surely there isn't a setting to make the angles appear
 different that what they should be? Could this be some sort of software
bug?
 I have version 5.11.1.1.165
 
 Here are some pictures of the plots: 
 http://forums.caves.org/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=11762&p=101230#p101098
 
 Thanks for any help you can give. 
 
 ----------------------------------------------------------
 mail2web - Check your email from the web at
 http://link.mail2web.com/mail2web


Messsage #: 267
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2011 02:32:08 -0600
From: "Larry Fish" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] Re: Cave Viewer inconsistently renders incorrect angles

Ryan,

I wrote a small program to test the different modes that are available on a
graphics card. It may give us more information about your problem. I have
uploaded the file to the Compass Group site and it has the name:

MapModeTest.zip 

After you've downloaded the file, unzip it and put it somewhere on your hard
drive. Double click on the file. The program shows a list of Windows
"mapping modes." Pressing the "Cross" button will draw a cross on the screen
using the mapping mode you've selected. The cross should be in the same
place and the same size no matter what mode it is drawn in. The lines will
be thicker in "Pixel" mode and the cross might jump by one pixel because of
rounding errors. Otherwise they should be identical.

Let me know what you find out.

Larry

________________________________________
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of RyanY
Sent: Friday, March 18, 2011 8:32 AM
Subject: [compass-users] Re: Cave Viewer inconsistently renders incorrect
angles

 
Larry et al,

Thank you for the quick response!

I neglected to mention that when I "printed" the cave plot, I actually
printed to PDF (via CutePDF), not on paper. I would have thought that if it
were an issue with an incorrect screen setting, the PDF plot should also
show incorrect angles, but as far as I can tell the PDF plot is entirely
accurate.

Another thing worth mentioning is that when someone sends me a bitmap screen
image from their computer of the same survey data the plot looks perfect to
me, but when I make a bitmap screen image with my computer the plot remains
incorrect.

Admittedly, my screen is of oddball proportions (WXGA), but I am a
resolution "purist" and always make sure to have my screen set at the
maximum, undistorted resolution possible. My screen is 14" (diagonal) and is
set to 1280x768 pixels. I believe with these settings, everything is 1:1 (no
distortion). Finally, it appears that the monitor adjustment is such that
there is no black space between or extension beyond the screen borders (the
screen has been automatically adjusted).

My graphics card is actually the integrated rubbish that comes standard with
most low end computers (Intel 82852/82855 GM/GME, Intel Extreme Graphics 2),
but it usually does the job just fine. My operating system is XP Home
Edition, 2002, SP3. I've verified that my driver is the most up to date
there is.

Perhaps unsurprisingly, I opened your cross.plt file and the N-S lengths
were indeed shorter than the W-E lengths (approximately a 4:5 ratio). Of
course, the PDF plot lengths measured to be equal. I used the distance tool
and the program told me they were the same lengths, so Compass thinks it's
showing me an accurate plot.

I am not entirely sure what the cause of my problem is, but at the moment I
am of the opinion that Compass may have rendering issues with my particular
resolution.

Does anyone else have the newest Compass version and have a WXGA monitor
that can confirm or deny my theory? It would also be interesting to see if
running an older Compass version on my computer would produce the same
distorted plot.

Thanks again for all your help guys, and I hope this problem can be solved
so I can use this fantastic program with confidence!

:

 I ran into the aspect ratio problem when I was taking screen shots from
the
 Compass viewer. I intended to get into my graphics card controls to see if
 I could correct it. As it happened, I first updated my ATI graphic card
 driver, and that fixed the problem.
 
 The easiest test is to create a couple of fake shots, both the same
length,
 one north-south and the other east-west. Get a screen shot into Photoshop
 and compare the pixel length.
 
 Dwight
 
 Original Message:
 -----------------
 From: Larry Fish [email protected]
 Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 03:46:32 -0600
 To: [email protected]
 Subject: RE: [compass-users] Cave Viewer inconsistently renders incorrect
 angles
 
 Ryan,
 
 Thanks for your email and questions. I've down loaded your files and
images
 and spent some time looking at them. I think this is probably an "aspect
 ratio" issue, but I don't have quite enough information to be sure. 
 
 I'm going to give you a fairly large "brain-dump" so you can understand
the
 issues and focus on certain details.
 
 This statement gives me a clue:
 
  What's interesting is that when I print the plot out, the
  angles SUDDENLY BECOME CORRECT!
 
 Compass uses exactly the same subroutines to print a file and display a
file
 on the screen, so that rules out a mathematical or graphics error inside
 Compass. The most likely cause is the display and how it is setup,
 especially things that the "Aspect Ratio." Here is a detailed explanation
of
 the issues:
 
 1. PRINTERS. When you print a cave plot, the printer uses an exact number
of
 Pixels per inch in the left-right and up-down direction. As a result, when
 you print a line that is supposed to be 1-inch long, it will be 1-inch
long
 on the paper. That's why your print out has the correct angles.
 
 2. SCREEN SCALING. The screen is different. Its scale and resolution are
 based on a several extraneous factors. For example, Windows assumes the
 screen has a certain resolution. Typically, it is 96 Dots Per Inch (DPI),
 but it can be other values. If Windows is set to 96 DPI, it doesn't really
 mean that a line 96 dots long will really be 1-inch long. The actual size
 depends on the Resolution of the monitor, the size of the monitor, the
video
 card settings and how the monitor is adjusted. 
 
 For example, let's say you have a monitor whose screen is 16 inches wide.
If
 your video card is set to a resolution of 1024 by 768, there will be 1024
 pixels across the 16 inch width of the screen. That means that the actual
 scale is 64 dpi so a 96 pixel lines would actually be 1.5 inches long on
the
 screen. If you change the video mode to 2048 by 1536, the actual screen
DPI
 will now be 128 dpi and the 96 pixel line will only be 0.75-inch long. The
 important thing to understand is that, unlike the printer, the monitors
 scale and resolution depends of many factors and the computer can't
control
 all of them.
 
 3. ASPECT RATIO. The problem gets more complicated because different
 monitors have different "aspect ratios." For example, on an old style
 non-HiDef monitor the "Aspect Ratio" is 4 to 3. That means that the ratio
of
 the width to the height is 4 to 3. Newer, high def monitors have aspect
 ratios of 16 to 9. Some of the very newest monitors have aspect ratios of
16
 to 10.
 
 When you setup your computer for a particular monitor, you must select a
 screen resolution that matches your monitor. If you don't, the pixels will
 be stretched or squashed horizontally or vertically. If this happens, the
 pixels won't be "Square" and the image will be distorted. The angles
between
 lines will be distorted. This is the most likely cause of the problem you
 are seeing. 
 
 The first thing I would try is to check the monitor's resolution and make
 sure your video card was set for a matching resolution. Some people don't
 like to set their video resolution to match the monitor because it makes
the
 text too small. If you are doing this, make sure the resolution you choose
 match the aspect ratio of your monitor. For example, if your monitor has a
4
 by 3 aspect ratio, screen resolutions of 800x600, 1024x768 and 1600x1200
all
 have a 4 to 3 aspect ratio. I've have posted file that you can use to test
 to see if the aspect ratio is wrong. More on this below.
 
 4. MONITOR ADJUSTMENTS. On top of that, you can adjust the width of the
 image on the monitor using the monitor's own controls. For example, you
 might prefer to have an 1/4 inch border on the right and left side of the
 image to make sure you can the you are not cutting off part of the
display.
 That small gap would change the Aspect Ratio enough to through the survey
 angles.
 
 5. MEASURED ANGLES. I loaded the file you posted into Compass and
displayed
 the file in the Viewer. I then used the "Tools - Measure Distance/Angles"
 option to measure the angles of each shot in the cave. The tool allows you
 to lock a cursor on each survey station ("Nearest Station" button) so the
 measurements are extremely accurate. When I do this, the angles exactly
 match the compass angles in the survey data.
 
 This tools measures angles mathematically by calculating difference
between
 the locations of each point on the screen. The key thing is that it is NOT
 measuring it visually, so it ignores all kinds of resolution, scaling and
 aspect ratio issues.
 
 This is something you can do too and it would give us more information to
 isolate the cause. Let me know if you need help using the tool.
 
 I have uploaded a file to the Compass Group called "Cross.plt." You should
 download it and double click on it. If Compass is installed properly, the
 Viewer will automatically open the file. The image will display a cross
with
 equal length arms. (Be sure to expand the Viewer to full screen and zoom
out
 a bit so you can see the ends of the cross arms.) If you measure the cross
 arms on the screen and they aren't equal, then the problem is probably
 caused because the video resolution settings don't match your monitor.
 
 It would also be useful to know more about your computer. What type of
 monitor and video card are you using, what resolution your are running and
 what operating system have you got? 
 
 Larry
 
 ________________________________________
 From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
 On Behalf Of RyanY
 Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 2:27 PM
 To: [email protected]
 Subject: [compass-users] Cave Viewer inconsistently renders incorrect
angles
 
  
 Hi All! I apologize if I'm asking something that's already been asked, but
 I've searched both this forum and the archives and couldn't find a similar
 problem.
 
 My friend has over 6300 feet of survey data in Compass for a cave he's
been
 working on. He recently bought a Pocket PC to sketch the cave with using
 PocketTopo. I offered to convert his Compass files into PocketTopo files.
 When I did, the PocketTopo plot looked a little different. I overlayed the
 Compass plot with the PocketTopo plot, and they definitely were different.
I
 assumed it was an error of mine during file manipulation. I decided to
 determine the source of the error, so I made brand new survey files in
 Compass and PocketTopo *using only front sights* and *the exact same
data*.
 Somehow, the plots were STILL different! So, I pulled out my transparent
 cave survey protractor and began measuring. Lo and behold, the Compass
plot
 had some angles that were incorrect! I verified that I was in the plan
view,
 so it's not that I was looking at the plot from a skewed view. Exporting
to
 bitmap still gives me the wrong angles. What's interesting is that when I
 print the plot out, the angles SUDDENLY BECOME CORRECT!
 
 Do you guys have any ideas?? I suppose this could be some sort of
incorrect
 setting, but surely there isn't a setting to make the angles appear
 different that what they should be? Could this be some sort of software
bug?
 I have version 5.11.1.1.165
 
 Here are some pictures of the plots: 
 http://forums.caves.org/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=11762&p=101230#p101098
 
 Thanks for any help you can give. 
 
 ----------------------------------------------------------
 mail2web - Check your email from the web at
 http://link.mail2web.com/mail2web


Messsage #: 268
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2011 15:01:35 -0000
From: "RyanY" 
Subject: Re: Cave Viewer inconsistently renders incorrect angles

Larry,

Unfortunately, I have made a huge error, which has resulted in a waste of your guys' time. Fortunately, the Cave Viewer is now correctly rendering plots! I told you I had the latest driver, but this was not true. You see, I own a Compaq Presario v2010us and traditionally I've always went to the computer manufacturer website to look for the latest drivers, which is what I did this time. The website claimed it was the most up to date driver, but it wasn't. While looking for the umpteenth time at my graphics properties, I noticed Intel has an option to go to their website to check for drivers. Desperate, I gave this a try and sure enough, the Compaq website had lied to me. After downloading, installing and rebooting, the Compass plotter works fine now.

I tried all your suggestions from your previous two postings before installing the new driver including using your small program, and if you are still interested in my findings I can elaborate. It's probably not worth mentioning, but after installing the driver, the crosses are occurring at different inch origins (pixel mode - 0,0 ; other modes - 8.2,8.2) and the 0.01 inch mode is as thick as the pixel mode. But as long as the Compass Cave Viewer is working correctly this doesn't concern me. 

I apologize for wasting your time, and thank you for all the help you've given. I've definitely learned some things about Compass (and the reliability of Compaq support) that I never knew before. Kudos to you Larry for your excellent program and phenomenal support. Thanks also to this wonderful community of Compass users.

G&

 Ryan,
 
 I wrote a small program to test the different modes that are available on a
 graphics card. It may give us more information about your problem. I have
 uploaded the file to the Compass Group site and it has the name:
 
 MapModeTest.zip 
 
 After you've downloaded the file, unzip it and put it somewhere on your hard
 drive. Double click on the file. The program shows a list of Windows
 "mapping modes." Pressing the "Cross" button will draw a cross on the screen
 using the mapping mode you've selected. The cross should be in the same
 place and the same size no matter what mode it is drawn in. The lines will
 be thicker in "Pixel" mode and the cross might jump by one pixel because of
 rounding errors. Otherwise they should be identical.
 
 Let me know what you find out.
 
 Larry
 
 ________________________________________
 From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
 On Behalf Of RyanY
 Sent: Friday, March 18, 2011 8:32 AM
 To: [email protected]
 Subject: [compass-users] Re: Cave Viewer inconsistently renders incorrect
 angles
 
  
 Larry et al,
 
 Thank you for the quick response!
 
 I neglected to mention that when I "printed" the cave plot, I actually
 printed to PDF (via CutePDF), not on paper. I would have thought that if it
 were an issue with an incorrect screen setting, the PDF plot should also
 show incorrect angles, but as far as I can tell the PDF plot is entirely
 accurate.
 
 Another thing worth mentioning is that when someone sends me a bitmap screen
 image from their computer of the same survey data the plot looks perfect to
 me, but when I make a bitmap screen image with my computer the plot remains
 incorrect.
 
 Admittedly, my screen is of oddball proportions (WXGA), but I am a
 resolution "purist" and always make sure to have my screen set at the
 maximum, undistorted resolution possible. My screen is 14" (diagonal) and is
 set to 1280x768 pixels. I believe with these settings, everything is 1:1 (no
 distortion). Finally, it appears that the monitor adjustment is such that
 there is no black space between or extension beyond the screen borders (the
 screen has been automatically adjusted).
 
 My graphics card is actually the integrated rubbish that comes standard with
 most low end computers (Intel 82852/82855 GM/GME, Intel Extreme Graphics 2),
 but it usually does the job just fine. My operating system is XP Home
 Edition, 2002, SP3. I've verified that my driver is the most up to date
 there is.
 
 Perhaps unsurprisingly, I opened your cross.plt file and the N-S lengths
 were indeed shorter than the W-E lengths (approximately a 4:5 ratio). Of
 course, the PDF plot lengths measured to be equal. I used the distance tool
 and the program told me they were the same lengths, so Compass thinks it's
 showing me an accurate plot.
 
 I am not entirely sure what the cause of my problem is, but at the moment I
 am of the opinion that Compass may have rendering issues with my particular
 resolution.
 
 Does anyone else have the newest Compass version and have a WXGA monitor
 that can confirm or deny my theory? It would also be interesting to see if
 running an older Compass version on my computer would produce the same
 distorted plot.
 
 Thanks again for all your help guys, and I hope this problem can be solved
 so I can use this fantastic program with confidence!
 
 --- In [email protected], "[email protected]"  wrote:
 
  I ran into the aspect ratio problem when I was taking screen shots from
 the
  Compass viewer. I intended to get into my graphics card controls to see if
  I could correct it. As it happened, I first updated my ATI graphic card
  driver, and that fixed the problem.
  
  The easiest test is to create a couple of fake shots, both the same
 length,
  one north-south and the other east-west. Get a screen shot into Photoshop
  and compare the pixel length.
  
  Dwight
  
  Original Message:
  -----------------
  From: Larry Fish [email protected]
  Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 03:46:32 -0600
  To: [email protected]
  Subject: RE: [compass-users] Cave Viewer inconsistently renders incorrect
  angles
  
  Ryan,
  
  Thanks for your email and questions. I've down loaded your files and
 images
  and spent some time looking at them. I think this is probably an "aspect
  ratio" issue, but I don't have quite enough information to be sure. 
  
  I'm going to give you a fairly large "brain-dump" so you can understand
 the
  issues and focus on certain details.
  
  This statement gives me a clue:
  
   What's interesting is that when I print the plot out, the
   angles SUDDENLY BECOME CORRECT!
  
  Compass uses exactly the same subroutines to print a file and display a
 file
  on the screen, so that rules out a mathematical or graphics error inside
  Compass. The most likely cause is the display and how it is setup,
  especially things that the "Aspect Ratio." Here is a detailed explanation
 of
  the issues:
  
  1. PRINTERS. When you print a cave plot, the printer uses an exact number
 of
  Pixels per inch in the left-right and up-down direction. As a result, when
  you print a line that is supposed to be 1-inch long, it will be 1-inch
 long
  on the paper. That's why your print out has the correct angles.
  
  2. SCREEN SCALING. The screen is different. Its scale and resolution are
  based on a several extraneous factors. For example, Windows assumes the
  screen has a certain resolution. Typically, it is 96 Dots Per Inch (DPI),
  but it can be other values. If Windows is set to 96 DPI, it doesn't really
  mean that a line 96 dots long will really be 1-inch long. The actual size
  depends on the Resolution of the monitor, the size of the monitor, the
 video
  card settings and how the monitor is adjusted. 
  
  For example, let's say you have a monitor whose screen is 16 inches wide.
 If
  your video card is set to a resolution of 1024 by 768, there will be 1024
  pixels across the 16 inch width of the screen. That means that the actual
  scale is 64 dpi so a 96 pixel lines would actually be 1.5 inches long on
 the
  screen. If you change the video mode to 2048 by 1536, the actual screen
 DPI
  will now be 128 dpi and the 96 pixel line will only be 0.75-inch long. The
  important thing to understand is that, unlike the printer, the monitors
  scale and resolution depends of many factors and the computer can't
 control
  all of them.
  
  3. ASPECT RATIO. The problem gets more complicated because different
  monitors have different "aspect ratios." For example, on an old style
  non-HiDef monitor the "Aspect Ratio" is 4 to 3. That means that the ratio
 of
  the width to the height is 4 to 3. Newer, high def monitors have aspect
  ratios of 16 to 9. Some of the very newest monitors have aspect ratios of
 16
  to 10.
  
  When you setup your computer for a particular monitor, you must select a
  screen resolution that matches your monitor. If you don't, the pixels will
  be stretched or squashed horizontally or vertically. If this happens, the
  pixels won't be "Square" and the image will be distorted. The angles
 between
  lines will be distorted. This is the most likely cause of the problem you
  are seeing. 
  
  The first thing I would try is to check the monitor's resolution and make
  sure your video card was set for a matching resolution. Some people don't
  like to set their video resolution to match the monitor because it makes
 the
  text too small. If you are doing this, make sure the resolution you choose
  match the aspect ratio of your monitor. For example, if your monitor has a
 4
  by 3 aspect ratio, screen resolutions of 800x600, 1024x768 and 1600x1200
 all
  have a 4 to 3 aspect ratio. I've have posted file that you can use to test
  to see if the aspect ratio is wrong. More on this below.
  
  4. MONITOR ADJUSTMENTS. On top of that, you can adjust the width of the
  image on the monitor using the monitor's own controls. For example, you
  might prefer to have an 1/4 inch border on the right and left side of the
  image to make sure you can the you are not cutting off part of the
 display.
  That small gap would change the Aspect Ratio enough to through the survey
  angles.
  
  5. MEASURED ANGLES. I loaded the file you posted into Compass and
 displayed
  the file in the Viewer. I then used the "Tools - Measure Distance/Angles"
  option to measure the angles of each shot in the cave. The tool allows you
  to lock a cursor on each survey station ("Nearest Station" button) so the
  measurements are extremely accurate. When I do this, the angles exactly
  match the compass angles in the survey data.
  
  This tools measures angles mathematically by calculating difference
 between
  the locations of each point on the screen. The key thing is that it is NOT
  measuring it visually, so it ignores all kinds of resolution, scaling and
  aspect ratio issues.
  
  This is something you can do too and it would give us more information to
  isolate the cause. Let me know if you need help using the tool.
  
  I have uploaded a file to the Compass Group called "Cross.plt." You should
  download it and double click on it. If Compass is installed properly, the
  Viewer will automatically open the file. The image will display a cross
 with
  equal length arms. (Be sure to expand the Viewer to full screen and zoom
 out
  a bit so you can see the ends of the cross arms.) If you measure the cross
  arms on the screen and they aren't equal, then the problem is probably
  caused because the video resolution settings don't match your monitor.
  
  It would also be useful to know more about your computer. What type of
  monitor and video card are you using, what resolution your are running and
  what operating system have you got? 
  
  Larry
  
  ________________________________________
  From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
  On Behalf Of RyanY
  Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 2:27 PM
  To: [email protected]
  Subject: [compass-users] Cave Viewer inconsistently renders incorrect
 angles
  
   
  Hi All! I apologize if I'm asking something that's already been asked, but
  I've searched both this forum and the archives and couldn't find a similar
  problem.
  
  My friend has over 6300 feet of survey data in Compass for a cave he's
 been
  working on. He recently bought a Pocket PC to sketch the cave with using
  PocketTopo. I offered to convert his Compass files into PocketTopo files.
  When I did, the PocketTopo plot looked a little different. I overlayed the
  Compass plot with the PocketTopo plot, and they definitely were different.
 I
  assumed it was an error of mine during file manipulation. I decided to
  determine the source of the error, so I made brand new survey files in
  Compass and PocketTopo *using only front sights* and *the exact same
 data*.
  Somehow, the plots were STILL different! So, I pulled out my transparent
  cave survey protractor and began measuring. Lo and behold, the Compass
 plot
  had some angles that were incorrect! I verified that I was in the plan
 view,
  so it's not that I was looking at the plot from a skewed view. Exporting
 to
  bitmap still gives me the wrong angles. What's interesting is that when I
  print the plot out, the angles SUDDENLY BECOME CORRECT!
  
  Do you guys have any ideas?? I suppose this could be some sort of
 incorrect
  setting, but surely there isn't a setting to make the angles appear
  different that what they should be? Could this be some sort of software
 bug?
  I have version 5.11.1.1.165
  
  Here are some pictures of the plots: 
  http://forums.caves.org/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=11762&p=101230#p101098
  
  Thanks for any help you can give. 
  
  ----------------------------------------------------------
  mail2web - Check your email from the web at
  http://link.mail2web.com/mail2web


Messsage #: 269
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2011 15:27:07 -0000
From: "RyanY" 
Subject: Re: Cave Viewer inconsistently renders incorrect angles

All,

I am not quite sure how downloading a later driver solved the problem, but I am glad Compass is performing perfectly now! 

I am curious though, if I had used the older driver when it first came out, would Compass have rendered an incorrect plot then as well? Or, did the driver become inaccurate for Compass over time? Perhaps installing a new driver reset a setting that was set wrong?

Knowing that one's computer can influence the plot of Compass, what is the easiest and quickest way for one ensure Compass is plotting correctly? To periodically open your cross.plt file and measure the lengths? 

Thanks,
Ryan

 Larry,
 
 Unfortunately, I have made a huge error, which has resulted in a waste of your guys' time. Fortunately, the Cave Viewer is now correctly rendering plots! I told you I had the latest driver, but this was not true. You see, I own a Compaq Presario v2010us and traditionally I've always went to the computer manufacturer website to look for the latest drivers, which is what I did this time. The website claimed it was the most up to date driver, but it wasn't. While looking for the umpteenth time at my graphics properties, I noticed Intel has an option to go to their website to check for drivers. Desperate, I gave this a try and sure enough, the Compaq website had lied to me. After downloading, installing and rebooting, the Compass plotter works fine now.
 
 I tried all your suggestions from your previous two postings before installing the new driver including using your small program, and if you are still interested in my findings I can elaborate. It's probably not worth mentioning, but after installing the driver, the crosses are occurring at different inch origins (pixel mode - 0,0 ; other modes - 8.2,8.2) and the 0.01 inch mode is as thick as the pixel mode. But as long as the Compass Cave Viewer is working correctly this doesn't concern me. 
 
 I apologize for wasting your time, and thank you for all the help you've given. I've definitely learned some things about Compass (and the reliability of Compaq support) that I never knew before. Kudos to you Larry for your excellent program and phenomenal support. Thanks also to this wonderful community of Compass users.
 
 Ryan
 
 --- In [email protected], "Larry Fish"  wrote:
 
  Ryan,
  
  I wrote a small program to test the different modes that are available on a
  graphics card. It may give us more information about your problem. I have
  uploaded the file to the Compass Group site and it has the name:
  
  MapModeTest.zip 
  
  After you've downloaded the file, unzip it and put it somewhere on your hard
  drive. Double click on the file. The program shows a list of Windows
  "mapping modes." Pressing the "Cross" button will draw a cross on the screen
  using the mapping mode you've selected. The cross should be in the same
  place and the same size no matter what mode it is drawn in. The lines will
  be thicker in "Pixel" mode and the cross might jump by one pixel because of
  rounding errors. Otherwise they should be identical.
  
  Let me know what you find out.
  
  Larry
  
  ________________________________________
  From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
  On Behalf Of RyanY
  Sent: Friday, March 18, 2011 8:32 AM
  To: com[email protected]
  Subject: [compass-users] Re: Cave Viewer inconsistently renders incorrect
  angles
  
   
  Larry et al,
  
  Thank you for the quick response!
  
  I neglected to mention that when I "printed" the cave plot, I actually
  printed to PDF (via CutePDF), not on paper. I would have thought that if it
  were an issue with an incorrect screen setting, the PDF plot should also
  show incorrect angles, but as far as I can tell the PDF plot is entirely
  accurate.
  
  Another thing worth mentioning is that when someone sends me a bitmap screen
  image from their computer of the same survey data the plot looks perfect to
  me, but when I make a bitmap screen image with my computer the plot remains
  incorrect.
  
  Admittedly, my screen is of oddball proportions (WXGA), but I am a
  resolution "purist" and always make sure to have my screen set at the
  maximum, undistorted resolution possible. My screen is 14" (diagonal) and is
  set to 1280x768 pixels. I believe with these settings, everything is 1:1 (no
  distortion). Finally, it appears that the monitor adjustment is such that
  there is no black space between or extension beyond the screen borders (the
  screen has been automatically adjusted).
  
  My graphics card is actually the integrated rubbish that comes standard with
  most low end computers (Intel 82852/82855 GM/GME, Intel Extreme Graphics 2),
  but it usually does the job just fine. My operating system is XP Home
  Edition, 2002, SP3. I've verified that my driver is the most up to date
  there is.
  
  Perhaps unsurprisingly, I opened your cross.plt file and the N-S lengths
  were indeed shorter than the W-E lengths (approximately a 4:5 ratio). Of
  course, the PDF plot lengths measured to be equal. I used the distance tool
  and the program told me they were the same lengths, so Compass thinks it's
  showing me an accurate plot.
  
  I am not entirely sure what the cause of my problem is, but at the moment I
  am of the opinion that Compass may have rendering issues with my particular
  resolution.
  
  Does anyone else have the newest Compass version and have a WXGA monitor
  that can confirm or deny my theory? It would also be interesting to see if
  running an older Compass version on my computer would produce the same
  distorted plot.
  
  Thanks again for all your help guys, and I hope this problem can be solved
  so I can use this fantastic program with confidence!
  
  --- In [email protected], "[email protected]"  wrote:
  
   I ran into the aspect ratio problem when I was taking screen shots from
  the
   Compass viewer. I intended to get into my graphics card controls to see if
   I could correct it. As it happened, I first updated my ATI graphic card
   driver, and that fixed the problem.
   
   The easiest test is to create a couple of fake shots, both the same
  length,
   one north-south and the other east-west. Get a screen shot into Photoshop
   and compare the pixel length.
   
   Dwight
   
   Original Message:
   -----------------
   From: Larry Fish [email protected]
   Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 03:46:32 -0600
   To: [email protected]
   Subject: RE: [compass-users] Cave Viewer inconsistently renders incorrect
   angles
   
   Ryan,
   
   Thanks for your email and questions. I've down loaded your files and
  images
   and spent some time looking at them. I think this is probably an "aspect
   ratio" issue, but I don't have quite enough information to be sure. 
   
   I'm going to give you a fairly large "brain-dump" so you can understand
  the
   issues and focus on certain details.
   
   This statement gives me a clue:
   
    What's interesting is that when I print the plot out, the
    angles SUDDENLY BECOME CORRECT!
   
   Compass uses exactly the same subroutines to print a file and display a
  file
   on the screen, so that rules out a mathematical or graphics error inside
   Compass. The most likely cause is the display and how it is setup,
   especially things that the "Aspect Ratio." Here is a detailed explanation
  of
   the issues:
   
   1. PRINTERS. When you print a cave plot, the printer uses an exact number
  of
   Pixels per inch in the left-right and up-down direction. As a result, when
   you print a line that is supposed to be 1-inch long, it will be 1-inch
  long
   on the paper. That's why your print out has the correct angles.
   
   2. SCREEN SCALING. The screen is different. Its scale and resolution are
   based on a several extraneous factors. For example, Windows assumes the
   screen has a certain resolution. Typically, it is 96 Dots Per Inch (DPI),
   but it can be other values. If Windows is set to 96 DPI, it doesn't really
   mean that a line 96 dots long will really be 1-inch long. The actual size
   depends on the Resolution of the monitor, the size of the monitor, the
  video
   card settings and how the monitor is adjusted. 
   
   For example, let's say you have a monitor whose screen is 16 inches wide.
  If
   your video card is set to a resolution of 1024 by 768, there will be 1024
   pixels across the 16 inch width of the screen. That means that the actual
   scale is 64 dpi so a 96 pixel lines would actually be 1.5 inches long on
  the
   screen. If you change the video mode to 2048 by 1536, the actual screen
  DPI
   will now be 128 dpi and the 96 pixel line will only be 0.75-inch long. The
   important thing to understand is that, unlike the printer, the monitors
   scale and resolution depends of many factors and the computer can't
  control
   all of them.
   
   3. ASPECT RATIO. The problem gets more complicated because different
   monitors have different "aspect ratios." For example, on an old style
   non-HiDef monitor the "Aspect Ratio" is 4 to 3. That means that the ratio
  of
   the width to the height is 4 to 3. Newer, high def monitors have aspect
   ratios of 16 to 9. Some of the very newest monitors have aspect ratios of
  16
   to 10.
   
   When you setup your computer for a particular monitor, you must select a
   screen resolution that matches your monitor. If you don't, the pixels will
   be stretched or squashed horizontally or vertically. If this happens, the
   pixels won't be "Square" and the image will be distorted. The angles
  between
   lines will be distorted. This is the most likely cause of the problem you
   are seeing. 
   
   The first thing I would try is to check the monitor's resolution and make
   sure your video card was set for a matching resolution. Some people don't
   like to set their video resolution to match the monitor because it makes
  the
   text too small. If you are doing this, make sure the resolution you choose
   match the aspect ratio of your monitor. For example, if your monitor has a
  4
   by 3 aspect ratio, screen resolutions of 800x600, 1024x768 and 1600x1200
  all
   have a 4 to 3 aspect ratio. I've have posted file that you can use to test
   to see if the aspect ratio is wrong. More on this below.
   
   4. MONITOR ADJUSTMENTS. On top of that, you can adjust the width of the
   image on the monitor using the monitor's own controls. For example, you
   might prefer to have an 1/4 inch border on the right and left side of the
   image to make sure you can the you are not cutting off part of the
  display.
   That small gap would change the Aspect Ratio enough to through the survey
   angles.
   
   5. MEASURED ANGLES. I loaded the file you posted into Compass and
  displayed
   the file in the Viewer. I then used the "Tools - Measure Distance/Angles"
   option to measure the angles of each shot in the cave. The tool allows you
   to lock a cursor on each survey station ("Nearest Station" button) so the
   measurements are extremely accurate. When I do this, the angles exactly
   match the compass angles in the survey data.
   
   This tools measures angles mathematically by calculating difference
  between
   the locations of each point on the screen. The key thing is that it is NOT
   measuring it visually, so it ignores all kinds of resolution, scaling and
   aspect ratio issues.
   
   This is something you can do too and it would give us more information to
   isolate the cause. Let me know if you need help using the tool.
   
   I have uploaded a file to the Compass Group called "Cross.plt." You should
   download it and double click on it. If Compass is installed properly, the
   Viewer will automatically open the file. The image will display a cross
  with
   equal length arms. (Be sure to expand the Viewer to full screen and zoom
  out
   a bit so you can see the ends of the cross arms.) If you measure the cross
   arms on the screen and they aren't equal, then the problem is probably
   caused because the video resolution settings don't match your monitor.
   
   It would also be useful to know more about your computer. What type of
   monitor and video card are you using, what resolution your are running and
   what operating system have you got? 
   
   Larry
   
   ________________________________________
   From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
   On Behalf Of RyanY
   Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 2:27 PM
   To: [email protected]
   Subject: [compass-users] Cave Viewer inconsistently renders incorrect
  angles
   
    
   Hi All! I apologize if I'm asking something that's already been asked, but
   I've searched both this forum and the archives and couldn't find a similar
   problem.
   
   My friend has over 6300 feet of survey data in Compass for a cave he's
  been
   working on. He recently bought a Pocket PC to sketch the cave with using
   PocketTopo. I offered to convert his Compass files into PocketTopo files.
   When I did, the PocketTopo plot looked a little different. I overlayed the
   Compass plot with the PocketTopo plot, and they definitely were different.
  I
   assumed it was an error of mine during file manipulation. I decided to
   determine the source of the error, so I made brand new survey files in
   Compass and PocketTopo *using only front sights* and *the exact same
  data*.
   Somehow, the plots were STILL different! So, I pulled out my transparent
   cave survey protractor and began measuring. Lo and behold, the Compass
  plot
   had some angles that were incorrect! I verified that I was in the plan
  view,
   so it's not that I was looking at the plot from a skewed view. Exporting
  to
   bitmap still gives me the wrong angles. What's interesting is that when I
   print the plot out, the angles SUDDENLY BECOME CORRECT!
   
   Do you guys have any ideas?? I suppose this could be some sort of
  incorrect
   setting, but surely there isn't a setting to make the angles appear
   different that what they should be? Could this be some sort of software
  bug?
   I have version 5.11.1.1.165
   
   Here are some pictures of the plots: 
   http://forums.caves.org/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=11762&p=101230#p101098
   
   Thanks for any help you can give. 
   
   ----------------------------------------------------------
   mail2web - Check your email from the web at
   http://link.mail2web.com/mail2web


Messsage #: 270
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2011 09:53:23 -0600
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [compass-users] Re: Cave Viewer inconsistently renders incorrect angles

Ryan,

I can understand your desire for your application to have the lineplot be
exact on the screen. When I am using Compass to view lineplots on the
screen, I really don't worry too much about the lineplot not being exact. I
only view lineplots on the screen to look at approximate relationships and
since my eyeballs aren't calibrated very precisely, as long as the
lineplots are close I'm OK. Where I do care about the lineplots being
correct is when I export them to ARCGIS to view the lineplot in
relationship to surface features, other caves, geology maps and etcetera,
however I export those maps as Shape files which shouldn't have the
problems you experienced. I also care about the lineplots being correct
when I export them to Adobe Illustrator to draft a map. However, since I
use the SVG exporter to export maps to Illustrator I shouldn't have the
problems you experienced. Since most of the caves I work with are maze
caves with lots of loop closures, I am always careful to check the close
loop option on the Project Manager screen when exporting a lineplot where I
care about exact relationships.

I applaud your tenacity and thoroughness in tracking down the problem you
were having with your driver. I admit that I have never checked the Compass
Shape File and SVG exports to make sure that they are exactly correct, but
merely assume that they work properly. I did learn something from your
experiences concerning video drivers, screen resolutions and ratios. I also
learned from Larry that exporting lineplots as a scaled BMP or WMF is a way
to make sure the lineplot is correct despite video driver, screen
resolution and ratio problems. Before the SVG exporter I used to export
lineplots as WMF for drafting cave maps. I had intuitively exported them as
scaled files, since that seemed like a better option and now I know why. I
wonder if it is really ever desirable to export an unscaled BMP or WMF and
whether it might be better to have the default be to have the scaled output
box checked.

Good luck with your cave survey and cartography projects,

Stan Allison
                                                                           
             "RyanY"                                                       
                                                                     To 
             Sent by:                  [email protected]       
             [email protected]                                          cc 
             oogroups.com                                                  
                                                                   Subject 
                                       [compass-users] Re: Cave Viewer     
             03/19/2011 09:27          inconsistently renders incorrect    
             AM                        angles                              
                                                                           
             Please respond to                                             
             [email protected]                                             
               oogroups.com                                                

All,

I am not quite sure how downloading a later driver solved the problem, but
I am glad Compass is performing perfectly now!

I am curious though, if I had used the older driver when it first came out,
would Compass have rendered an incorrect plot then as well? Or, did the
driver become inaccurate for Compass over time? Perhaps installing a new
driver reset a setting that was set wrong?

Knowing that one's computer can influence the plot of Compass, what is the
easiest and quickest way for one ensure Compass is plotting correctly? To
periodically open your cross.plt file and measure the lengths?

Thanks,
Ryan

--- In [email protected], "RyanY"  wrote:

 Larry,

 Unfortunately, I have made a huge error, which has resulted in a waste of
your guys' time. Fortunately, the Cave Viewer is now correctly rendering
plots! I told you I had the latest driver, but this was not true. You see,
I own a Compaq Presario v2010us and traditionally I've always went to the
computer manufacturer website to look for the latest drivers, which is what
I did this time. The website claimed it was the most up to date driver, but
it wasn't. While looking for the umpteenth time at my graphics properties,
I noticed Intel has an option to go to their website to check for drivers.
Desperate, I gave this a try and sure enough, the Compaq website had lied
to me. After downloading, installing and rebooting, the Compass plotter
works fine now.

 I tried all your suggestions from your previous two postings before
installing the new driver including using your small program, and if you
are still interested in my findings I can elaborate. It's probably not
worth mentioning, but after installing the driver, the crosses are
occurring at different inch origins (pixel mode - 0,0 ; other modes -
8.2,8.2) and the 0.01 inch mode is as thick as the pixel mode. But as long
as the Compass Cave Viewer is working correctly this doesn't concern me.

 I apologize for wasting your time, and thank you for all the help you've
given. I've definitely learned some things about Compass (and the
reliability of Compaq support) that I never knew before. Kudos to you Larry
for your excellent program and phenomenal support. Thanks also to this
wonderful community of Compass users.

 Ryan

 --- In [email protected], "Larry Fish"  wrote:
 
  Ryan,
 
  I wrote a small program to test the different modes that are available
on a
  graphics card. It may give us more information about your problem. I
have
  uploaded the file to the Compass Group site and it has the name:
 
  MapModeTest.zip
 
  After you've downloaded the file, unzip it and put it somewhere on your
hard
  drive. Double click on the file. The program shows a list of Windows
  "mapping modes." Pressing the "Cross" button will draw a cross on the
screen
  using the mapping mode you've selected. The cross should be in the same
  place and the same size no matter what mode it is drawn in. The lines
will
  be thicker in "Pixel" mode and the cross might jump by one pixel
because of
  rounding errors. Otherwise they should be identical.
 
  Let me know what you find out.
 
  Larry
 
  ________________________________________
  From: [email protected] [mailto:
[email protected]]
  On Behalf Of RyanY
  Sent: Friday, March 18, 2011 8:32 AM
  To: [email protected]
  Subject: [compass-users] Re: Cave Viewer inconsistently renders
incorrect
  angles
 
  Larry et al,
 
  Thank you for the quick response!
 
  I neglected to mention that when I "printed" the cave plot, I actually
  printed to PDF (via CutePDF), not on paper. I would have thought that
if it
  were an issue with an incorrect screen setting, the PDF plot should
also
  show incorrect angles, but as far as I can tell the PDF plot is
entirely
  accurate.
 
  Another thing worth mentioning is that when someone sends me a bitmap
screen
  image from their computer of the same survey data the plot looks
perfect to
  me, but when I make a bitmap screen image with my computer the plot
remains
  incorrect.
 
  Admittedly, my screen is of oddball proportions (WXGA), but I am a
  resolution "purist" and always make sure to have my screen set at the
  maximum, undistorted resolution possible. My screen is 14" (diagonal)
and is
  set to 1280x768 pixels. I believe with these settings, everything is
1:1 (no
  distortion). Finally, it appears that the monitor adjustment is such
that
  there is no black space between or extension beyond the screen borders
(the
  screen has been automatically adjusted).
 
  My graphics card is actually the integrated rubbish that comes standard
with
  most low end computers (Intel 82852/82855 GM/GME, Intel Extreme
Graphics 2),
  but it usually does the job just fine. My operating system is XP Home
  Edition, 2002, SP3. I've verified that my driver is the most up to date
  there is.
 
  Perhaps unsurprisingly, I opened your cross.plt file and the N-S
lengths
  were indeed shorter than the W-E lengths (approximately a 4:5 ratio).
Of
  course, the PDF plot lengths measured to be equal. I used the distance
tool
  and the program told me they were the same lengths, so Compass thinks
it's
  showing me an accurate plot.
 
  I am not entirely sure what the cause of my problem is, but at the
moment I
  am of the opinion that Compass may have rendering issues with my
particular
  resolution.
 
  Does anyone else have the newest Compass version and have a WXGA
monitor
  that can confirm or deny my theory? It would also be interesting to see
if
  running an older Compass version on my computer would produce the same
  distorted plot.
 
  Thanks again for all your help guys, and I hope this problem can be
solved
  so I can use this fantastic program with confidence!
 
  --- In [email protected], "[email protected]"  wrote:
  
   I ran into the aspect ratio problem when I was taking screen shots
from
  the
   Compass viewer. I intended to get into my graphics card controls to
see if
   I could correct it. As it happened, I first updated my ATI graphic
card
   driver, and that fixed the problem.
  
   The easiest test is to create a couple of fake shots, both the same
  length,
   one north-south and the other east-west. Get a screen shot into
Photoshop
   and compare the pixel length.
  
   Dwight
  
   Original Message:
   -----------------
   From: Larry Fish [email protected]
   Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 03:46:32 -0600
   To: [email protected]
   Subject: RE: [compass-users] Cave Viewer inconsistently renders
incorrect
   angles
  
   Ryan,
  
   Thanks for your email and questions. I've down loaded your files and
  images
   and spent some time looking at them. I think this is probably an
"aspect
   ratio" issue, but I don't have quite enough information to be sure.
  
   I'm going to give you a fairly large "brain-dump" so you can
understand
  the
   issues and focus on certain details.
  
   This statement gives me a clue:
  
    What's interesting is that when I print the plot out, the
    angles SUDDENLY BECOME CORRECT!
  
   Compass uses exactly the same subroutines to print a file and display
a
  file
   on the screen, so that rules out a mathematical or graphics error
inside
   Compass. The most likely cause is the display and how it is setup,
   especially things that the "Aspect Ratio." Here is a detailed
explanation
  of
   the issues:
  
   1. PRINTERS. When you print a cave plot, the printer uses an exact
number
  of
   Pixels per inch in the left-right and up-down direction. As a result,
when
   you print a line that is supposed to be 1-inch long, it will be
1-inch
  long
   on the paper. That's why your print out has the correct angles.
  
   2. SCREEN SCALING. The screen is different. Its scale and resolution
are
   based on a several extraneous factors. For example, Windows assumes
the
   screen has a certain resolution. Typically, it is 96 Dots Per Inch
(DPI),
   but it can be other values. If Windows is set to 96 DPI, it doesn't
really
   mean that a line 96 dots long will really be 1-inch long. The actual
size
   depends on the Resolution of the monitor, the size of the monitor,
the
  video
   card settings and how the monitor is adjusted.
  
   For example, let's say you have a monitor whose screen is 16 inches
wide.
  If
   your video card is set to a resolution of 1024 by 768, there will be
1024
   pixels across the 16 inch width of the screen. That means that the
actual
   scale is 64 dpi so a 96 pixel lines would actually be 1.5 inches long
on
  the
   screen. If you change the video mode to 2048 by 1536, the actual
screen
  DPI
   will now be 128 dpi and the 96 pixel line will only be 0.75-inch
long. The
   important thing to understand is that, unlike the printer, the
monitors
   scale and resolution depends of many factors and the computer can't
  control
   all of them.
  
   3. ASPECT RATIO. The problem gets more complicated because different
   monitors have different "aspect ratios." For example, on an old style
   non-HiDef monitor the "Aspect Ratio" is 4 to 3. That means that the
ratio
  of
   the width to the height is 4 to 3. Newer, high def monitors have
aspect
   ratios of 16 to 9. Some of the very newest monitors have aspect
ratios of
  16
   to 10.
  
   When you setup your computer for a particular monitor, you must
select a
   screen resolution that matches your monitor. If you don't, the pixels
will
   be stretched or squashed horizontally or vertically. If this happens,
the
   pixels won't be "Square" and the image will be distorted. The angles
  between
   lines will be distorted. This is the most likely cause of the problem
you
   are seeing.
  
   The first thing I would try is to check the monitor's resolution and
make
   sure your video card was set for a matching resolution. Some people
don't
   like to set their video resolution to match the monitor because it
makes
  the
   text too small. If you are doing this, make sure the resolution you
choose
   match the aspect ratio of your monitor. For example, if your monitor
has a
  4
   by 3 aspect ratio, screen resolutions of 800x600, 1024x768 and
1600x1200
  all
   have a 4 to 3 aspect ratio. I've have posted file that you can use to
test
   to see if the aspect ratio is wrong. More on this below.
  
   4. MONITOR ADJUSTMENTS. On top of that, you can adjust the width of
the
   image on the monitor using the monitor's own controls. For example,
you
   might prefer to have an 1/4 inch border on the right and left side of
the
   image to make sure you can the you are not cutting off part of the
  display.
   That small gap would change the Aspect Ratio enough to through the
survey
   angles.
  
   5. MEASURED ANGLES. I loaded the file you posted into Compass and
  displayed
   the file in the Viewer. I then used the "Tools - Measure
Distance/Angles"
   option to measure the angles of each shot in the cave. The tool
allows you
   to lock a cursor on each survey station ("Nearest Station" button) so
the
   measurements are extremely accurate. When I do this, the angles
exactly
   match the compass angles in the survey data.
  
   This tools measures angles mathematically by calculating difference
  between
   the locations of each point on the screen. The key thing is that it
is NOT
   measuring it visually, so it ignores all kinds of resolution, scaling
and
   aspect ratio issues.
  
   This is something you can do too and it would give us more
information to
   isolate the cause. Let me know if you need help using the tool.
  
   I have uploaded a file to the Compass Group called "Cross.plt." You
should
   download it and double click on it. If Compass is installed properly,
the
   Viewer will automatically open the file. The image will display a
cross
  with
   equal length arms. (Be sure to expand the Viewer to full screen and
zoom
  out
   a bit so you can see the ends of the cross arms.) If you measure the
cross
   arms on the screen and they aren't equal, then the problem is
probably
   caused because the video resolution settings don't match your
monitor.
  
   It would also be useful to know more about your computer. What type
of
   monitor and video card are you using, what resolution your are
running and
   what operating system have you got?
  
   Larry
  
   ________________________________________
   From: [email protected] [mailto:
[email protected]]
   On Behalf Of RyanY
   Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 2:27 PM
   To: [email protected]
   Subject: [compass-users] Cave Viewer inconsistently renders incorrect
  angles
  
   Hi All! I apologize if I'm asking something that's already been
asked, but
   I've searched both this forum and the archives and couldn't find a
similar
   problem.
  
   My friend has over 6300 feet of survey data in Compass for a cave
he's
  been
   working on. He recently bought a Pocket PC to sketch the cave with
using
   PocketTopo. I offered to convert his Compass files into PocketTopo
files.
   When I did, the PocketTopo plot looked a little different. I
overlayed the
   Compass plot with the PocketTopo plot, and they definitely were
different.
  I
   assumed it was an error of mine during file manipulation. I decided
to
   determine the source of the error, so I made brand new survey files
in
   Compass and PocketTopo *using only front sights* and *the exact same
  data*.
   Somehow, the plots were STILL different! So, I pulled out my
transparent
   cave survey protractor and began measuring. Lo and behold, the
Compass
  plot
   had some angles that were incorrect! I verified that I was in the
plan
  view,
   so it's not that I was looking at the plot from a skewed view.
Exporting
  to
   bitmap still gives me the wrong angles. What's interesting is that
when I
   print the plot out, the angles SUDDENLY BECOME CORRECT!
  
   Do you guys have any ideas?? I suppose this could be some sort of
  incorrect
   setting, but surely there isn't a setting to make the angles appear
   different that what they should be? Could this be some sort of
software
  bug?
   I have version 5.11.1.1.165
  
   Here are some pictures of the plots:
   http://forums.caves.org/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=11762&p=101230#p101098
  
   Thanks for any help you can give.
  
   ----------------------------------------------------------
   mail2web - Check your email from the web at
   http://link.mail2web.com/mail2web


Messsage #: 271
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2011 13:02:14 -0600
From: "Larry Fish" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] Re: Cave Viewer inconsistently renders incorrect angles

Ryan,

 I apologize for wasting your time, and thank you for all the help
 you've given.

Don't worry about it. It was not a waste of time. One of the nice things
about the Users Group is that other people can read about your problems and
learn from them. In the future your discoveries may save someone a lot of
time and effort. At the same time, I now have a test tool that I can send
out to people so they can test to see if their graphics drivers are handling
the mapping modes correctly.

Larry


Messsage #: 272
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2011 13:29:15 -0600
From: "Larry Fish" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] Re: Cave Viewer inconsistently renders incorrect angles

Ryan,

You might want to post something on the Cave Chat page letting people know
that you solved the problem. The information would help somebody who has a
similar problem.

Larry


Messsage #: 273
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2011 13:32:29 -0600
From: "Larry Fish" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] Re: Cave Viewer inconsistently renders incorrect angles

Ryan,

 I am not quite sure how downloading a later driver solved
 the problem, but I am glad Compass is performing perfectly
 now! 

The driver is responsible for converting Windows commands into actions. For
example, if I tell Windows to draw a line from the coordinates (0,0) to
(1000,0) it will draw a horizontal line 1,000 pixels long. The driver is
responsible lighting all the pixels between those two points.

If I tell Windows to go into "Inch" mode, that 1000 number is now
interpreted to be 1-inch and the Driver has to figure out how many pixels it
has to light up to equal 1-inch. On my computer, it turns out that it has to
light up 72 pixels to equal one inch.

There are lots of things that go into that calculation. And the calculation
may be different in the Horizontal direction than in the Vertical direction.
If the driver software gets any of those calculations wrong, the line will
have an error in it. Since driver software can be very complicated, it is
not unusual to have bugs in the software that the programmer didn't notice.
That is apparently what happened here.

 I am curious though, if I had used the older driver when it
 first came out, would Compass have rendered an incorrect
 plot then as well? Or, did the driver become inaccurate for
 Compass over time? Perhaps installing a new driver reset a
 setting that was set wrong?

It is possible that the problem was caused by some kind of "Setting Error"
that occurred after the older driver was originally installed, but I doubt
it. It is most likely that the error was there from the beginning. You
either didn't notice it in other applications or Compass was the first
program to use the driver in this particular video mode.

 Knowing that one's computer can influence the plot of
 Compass, what is the easiest and quickest way for one ensure
 Compass is plotting correctly? To periodically open your
 cross.plt file and measure the lengths? 

This kind of problem is relatively rare. In all the years of working with
Compass, this is the first time I've seen anything similar. The "Cross.plt"
file is a good way to test for these kinds of problems. I have several
similar files that I use to verify that the draw/printing routines are
working properly.

Larry

________________________________________
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of RyanY
Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2011 9:27 AM
Subject: [compass-users] Re: Cave Viewer inconsistently renders incorrect
angles

 
All,

I am not quite sure how downloading a later driver solved the problem, but I
am glad Compass is performing perfectly now! 

I am curious though, if I had used the older driver when it first came out,
would Compass have rendered an incorrect plot then as well? Or, did the
driver become inaccurate for Compass over time? Perhaps installing a new
driver reset a setting that was set wrong?

Knowing that one's computer can influence the plot of Compass, what is the
easiest and quickest way for one ensure Compass is plotting correctly? To
periodically open your cross.plt file and measure the lengths? 

Thanks,
Ryan

 Larry,
 
 Unfortunately, I have made a huge error, which has resulted in a waste of
your guys' time. Fortunately, the Cave Viewer is now correctly rendering
plots! I told you I had the latest driver, but this was not true. You see, I
own a Compaq Presario v2010us and traditionally I've always went to the
computer manufacturer website to look for the latest drivers, which is what
I did this time. The website claimed it was the most up to date driver, but
it wasn't. While looking for the umpteenth time at my graphics properties, I
noticed Intel has an option to go to their website to check for drivers.
Desperate, I gave this a try and sure enough, the Compaq website had lied to
me. After downloading, installing and rebooting, the Compass plotter works
fine now.
 
 I tried all your suggestions from your previous two postings before
installing the new driver including using your small program, and if you are
still interested in my findings I can elaborate. It's probably not worth
mentioning, but after installing the driver, the crosses are occurring at
different inch origins (pixel mode - 0,0 ; other modes - 8.2,8.2) and the
0.01 inch mode is as thick as the pixel mode. But as long as the Compass
Cave Viewer is working correctly this doesn't concern me. 
 
 I apologize for wasting your time, and thank you for all the help you've
given. I've definitely learned some things about Compass (and the
reliability of Compaq support) that I never knew before. Kudos to you Larry
for your excellent program and phenomenal support. Thanks also to this
wonderful community of Compass users.
 
 Ryan
 
 --- In [email protected], "Larry Fish"  wrote:
 
  Ryan,
  
  I wrote a small program to test the different modes that are available
on a
  graphics card. It may give us more information about your problem. I
have
  uploaded the file to the Compass Group site and it has the name:
  
  MapModeTest.zip 
  
  After you've downloaded the file, unzip it and put it somewhere on your
hard
  drive. Double click on the file. The program shows a list of Windows
  "mapping modes." Pressing the "Cross" button will draw a cross on the
screen
  using the mapping mode you've selected. The cross should be in the same
  place and the same size no matter what mode it is drawn in. The lines
will
  be thicker in "Pixel" mode and the cross might jump by one pixel because
of
  rounding errors. Otherwise they should be identical.
  
  Let me know what you find out.
  
  Larry
  
  ________________________________________
  From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]]
  On Behalf Of RyanY
  Sent: Friday, March 18, 2011 8:32 AM
  To: [email protected]
  Subject: [compass-users] Re: Cave Viewer inconsistently renders
incorrect
  angles
  
   
  Larry et al,
  
  Thank you for the quick response!
  
  I neglected to mention that when I "printed" the cave plot, I actually
  printed to PDF (via CutePDF), not on paper. I would have thought that if
it
  were an issue with an incorrect screen setting, the PDF plot should also
  show incorrect angles, but as far as I can tell the PDF plot is entirely
  accurate.
  
  Another thing worth mentioning is that when someone sends me a bitmap
screen
  image from their computer of the same survey data the plot looks perfect
to
  me, but when I make a bitmap screen image with my computer the plot
remains
  incorrect.
  
  Admittedly, my screen is of oddball proportions (WXGA), but I am a
  resolution "purist" and always make sure to have my screen set at the
  maximum, undistorted resolution possible. My screen is 14" (diagonal)
and is
  set to 1280x768 pixels. I believe with these settings, everything is 1:1
(no
  distortion). Finally, it appears that the monitor adjustment is such
that
  there is no black space between or extension beyond the screen borders
(the
  screen has been automatically adjusted).
  
  My graphics card is actually the integrated rubbish that comes standard
with
  most low end computers (Intel 82852/82855 GM/GME, Intel Extreme Graphics
2),
  but it usually does the job just fine. My operating system is XP Home
  Edition, 2002, SP3. I've verified that my driver is the most up to date
  there is.
  
  Perhaps unsurprisingly, I opened your cross.plt file and the N-S lengths
  were indeed shorter than the W-E lengths (approximately a 4:5 ratio). Of
  course, the PDF plot lengths measured to be equal. I used the distance
tool
  and the program told me they were the same lengths, so Compass thinks
it's
  showing me an accurate plot.
  
  I am not entirely sure what the cause of my problem is, but at the
moment I
  am of the opinion that Compass may have rendering issues with my
particular
  resolution.
  
  Does anyone else have the newest Compass version and have a WXGA monitor
  that can confirm or deny my theory? It would also be interesting to see
if
  running an older Compass version on my computer would produce the same
  distorted plot.
  
  Thanks again for all your help guys, and I hope this problem can be
solved
  so I can use this fantastic program with confidence!
  
  --- In [email protected], "[email protected]"  wrote:
  
   I ran into the aspect ratio problem when I was taking screen shots
from
  the
   Compass viewer. I intended to get into my graphics card controls to
see if
   I could correct it. As it happened, I first updated my ATI graphic
card
   driver, and that fixed the problem.
   
   The easiest test is to create a couple of fake shots, both the same
  length,
   one north-south and the other east-west. Get a screen shot into
Photoshop
   and compare the pixel length.
   
   Dwight
   
   Original Message:
   -----------------
   From: Larry Fish [email protected]
   Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 03:46:32 -0600
   To: [email protected]
   Subject: RE: [compass-users] Cave Viewer inconsistently renders
incorrect
   angles
   
   Ryan,
   
   Thanks for your email and questions. I've down loaded your files and
  images
   and spent some time looking at them. I think this is probably an
"aspect
   ratio" issue, but I don't have quite enough information to be sure. 
   
   I'm going to give you a fairly large "brain-dump" so you can
understand
  the
   issues and focus on certain details.
   
   This statement gives me a clue:
   
    What's interesting is that when I print the plot out, the
    angles SUDDENLY BECOME CORRECT!
   
   Compass uses exactly the same subroutines to print a file and display
a
  file
   on the screen, so that rules out a mathematical or graphics error
inside
   Compass. The most likely cause is the display and how it is setup,
   especially things that the "Aspect Ratio." Here is a detailed
explanation
  of
   the issues:
   
   1. PRINTERS. When you print a cave plot, the printer uses an exact
number
  of
   Pixels per inch in the left-right and up-down direction. As a result,
when
   you print a line that is supposed to be 1-inch long, it will be 1-inch
  long
   on the paper. That's why your print out has the correct angles.
   
   2. SCREEN SCALING. The screen is different. Its scale and resolution
are
   based on a several extraneous factors. For example, Windows assumes
the
   screen has a certain resolution. Typically, it is 96 Dots Per Inch
(DPI),
   but it can be other values. If Windows is set to 96 DPI, it doesn't
really
   mean that a line 96 dots long will really be 1-inch long. The actual
size
   depends on the Resolution of the monitor, the size of the monitor, the
  video
   card settings and how the monitor is adjusted. 
   
   For example, let's say you have a monitor whose screen is 16 inches
wide.
  If
   your video card is set to a resolution of 1024 by 768, there will be
1024
   pixels across the 16 inch width of the screen. That means that the
actual
   scale is 64 dpi so a 96 pixel lines would actually be 1.5 inches long
on
  the
   screen. If you change the video mode to 2048 by 1536, the actual
screen
  DPI
   will now be 128 dpi and the 96 pixel line will only be 0.75-inch long.
The
   important thing to understand is that, unlike the printer, the
monitors
   scale and resolution depends of many factors and the computer can't
  control
   all of them.
   
   3. ASPECT RATIO. The problem gets more complicated because different
   monitors have different "aspect ratios." For example, on an old style
   non-HiDef monitor the "Aspect Ratio" is 4 to 3. That means that the
ratio
  of
   the width to the height is 4 to 3. Newer, high def monitors have
aspect
   ratios of 16 to 9. Some of the very newest monitors have aspect ratios
of
  16
   to 10.
   
   When you setup your computer for a particular monitor, you must select
a
   screen resolution that matches your monitor. If you don't, the pixels
will
   be stretched or squashed horizontally or vertically. If this happens,
the
   pixels won't be "Square" and the image will be distorted. The angles
  between
   lines will be distorted. This is the most likely cause of the problem
you
   are seeing. 
   
   The first thing I would try is to check the monitor's resolution and
make
   sure your video card was set for a matching resolution. Some people
don't
   like to set their video resolution to match the monitor because it
makes
  the
   text too small. If you are doing this, make sure the resolution you
choose
   match the aspect ratio of your monitor. For example, if your monitor
has a
  4
   by 3 aspect ratio, screen resolutions of 800x600, 1024x768 and
1600x1200
  all
   have a 4 to 3 aspect ratio. I've have posted file that you can use to
test
   to see if the aspect ratio is wrong. More on this below.
   
   4. MONITOR ADJUSTMENTS. On top of that, you can adjust the width of
the
   image on the monitor using the monitor's own controls. For example,
you
   might prefer to have an 1/4 inch border on the right and left side of
the
   image to make sure you can the you are not cutting off part of the
  display.
   That small gap would change the Aspect Ratio enough to through the
survey
   angles.
   
   5. MEASURED ANGLES. I loaded the file you posted into Compass and
  displayed
   the file in the Viewer. I then used the "Tools - Measure
Distance/Angles"
   option to measure the angles of each shot in the cave. The tool allows
you
   to lock a cursor on each survey station ("Nearest Station" button) so
the
   measurements are extremely accurate. When I do this, the angles
exactly
   match the compass angles in the survey data.
   
   This tools measures angles mathematically by calculating difference
  between
   the locations of each point on the screen. The key thing is that it is
NOT
   measuring it visually, so it ignores all kinds of resolution, scaling
and
   aspect ratio issues.
   
   This is something you can do too and it would give us more information
to
   isolate the cause. Let me know if you need help using the tool.
   
   I have uploaded a file to the Compass Group called "Cross.plt." You
should
   download it and double click on it. If Compass is installed properly,
the
   Viewer will automatically open the file. The image will display a
cross
  with
   equal length arms. (Be sure to expand the Viewer to full screen and
zoom
  out
   a bit so you can see the ends of the cross arms.) If you measure the
cross
   arms on the screen and they aren't equal, then the problem is probably
   caused because the video resolution settings don't match your monitor.
   
   It would also be useful to know more about your computer. What type of
   monitor and video card are you using, what resolution your are running
and
   what operating system have you got? 
   
   Larry
   
   ________________________________________
   From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]]
   On Behalf Of RyanY
   Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 2:27 PM
   To: [email protected]
   Subject: [compass-users] Cave Viewer inconsistently renders incorrect
  angles
   
    
   Hi All! I apologize if I'm asking something that's already been asked,
but
   I've searched both this forum and the archives and couldn't find a
similar
   problem.
   
   My friend has over 6300 feet of survey data in Compass for a cave he's
  been
   working on. He recently bought a Pocket PC to sketch the cave with
using
   PocketTopo. I offered to convert his Compass files into PocketTopo
files.
   When I did, the PocketTopo plot looked a little different. I overlayed
the
   Compass plot with the PocketTopo plot, and they definitely were
different.
  I
   assumed it was an error of mine during file manipulation. I decided to
   determine the source of the error, so I made brand new survey files in
   Compass and PocketTopo *using only front sights* and *the exact same
  data*.
   Somehow, the plots were STILL different! So, I pulled out my
transparent
   cave survey protractor and began measuring. Lo and behold, the Compass
  plot
   had some angles that were incorrect! I verified that I was in the plan
  view,
   so it's not that I was looking at the plot from a skewed view.
Exporting
  to
   bitmap still gives me the wrong angles. What's interesting is that
when I
   print the plot out, the angles SUDDENLY BECOME CORRECT!
   
   Do you guys have any ideas?? I suppose this could be some sort of
  incorrect
   setting, but surely there isn't a setting to make the angles appear
   different that what they should be? Could this be some sort of
software
  bug?
   I have version 5.11.1.1.165
   
   Here are some pictures of the plots: 
   http://forums.caves.org/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=11762&p=101230#p101098
   
   Thanks for any help you can give. 
   
   ----------------------------------------------------------
   mail2web - Check your email from the web at
   http://link.mail2web.com/mail2web


Messsage #: 274
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2011 19:40:31 -0000
From: "RyanY" 
Subject: Re: Cave Viewer inconsistently renders incorrect angles

Thanks Larry, this pretty much answers every remaining question I had. Looking very forward to using this program more in the future! 

I've already let Cavechat know that it was as simple as downloading the latest driver and that it wasn't any sort of software bug. Now that you mention it though, I'll go ahead and provide a link to the specific discussion so that they can more easily find the details.

Happy mapping!

 Ryan,
 
  I am not quite sure how downloading a later driver solved
  the problem, but I am glad Compass is performing perfectly
  now! 
 
 The driver is responsible for converting Windows commands into actions. For
 example, if I tell Windows to draw a line from the coordinates (0,0) to
 (1000,0) it will draw a horizontal line 1,000 pixels long. The driver is
 responsible lighting all the pixels between those two points.
 
 If I tell Windows to go into "Inch" mode, that 1000 number is now
 interpreted to be 1-inch and the Driver has to figure out how many pixels it
 has to light up to equal 1-inch. On my computer, it turns out that it has to
 light up 72 pixels to equal one inch.
 
 There are lots of things that go into that calculation. And the calculation
 may be different in the Horizontal direction than in the Vertical direction.
 If the driver software gets any of those calculations wrong, the line will
 have an error in it. Since driver software can be very complicated, it is
 not unusual to have bugs in the software that the programmer didn't notice.
 That is apparently what happened here.
 
  I am curious though, if I had used the older driver when it
  first came out, would Compass have rendered an incorrect
  plot then as well? Or, did the driver become inaccurate for
  Compass over time? Perhaps installing a new driver reset a
  setting that was set wrong?
 
 It is possible that the problem was caused by some kind of "Setting Error"
 that occurred after the older driver was originally installed, but I doubt
 it. It is most likely that the error was there from the beginning. You
 either didn't notice it in other applications or Compass was the first
 program to use the driver in this particular video mode.
 
  Knowing that one's computer can influence the plot of
  Compass, what is the easiest and quickest way for one ensure
  Compass is plotting correctly? To periodically open your
  cross.plt file and measure the lengths? 
 
 This kind of problem is relatively rare. In all the years of working with
 Compass, this is the first time I've seen anything similar. The "Cross.plt"
 file is a good way to test for these kinds of problems. I have several
 similar files that I use to verify that the draw/printing routines are
 working properly.
 
 Larry
 
 ________________________________________
 From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
 On Behalf Of RyanY
 Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2011 9:27 AM
 To: [email protected]
 Subject: [compass-users] Re: Cave Viewer inconsistently renders incorrect
 angles
 
  
 All,
 
 I am not quite sure how downloading a later driver solved the problem, but I
 am glad Compass is performing perfectly now! 
 
 I am curious though, if I had used the older driver when it first came out,
 would Compass have rendered an incorrect plot then as well? Or, did the
 driver become inaccurate for Compass over time? Perhaps installing a new
 driver reset a setting that was set wrong?
 
 Knowing that one's computer can influence the plot of Compass, what is the
 easiest and quickest way for one ensure Compass is plotting correctly? To
 periodically open your cross.plt file and measure the lengths? 
 
 Thanks,
 Ryan
 
 --- In [email protected], "RyanY"  wrote:
 
  Larry,
  
  Unfortunately, I have made a huge error, which has resulted in a waste of
 your guys' time. Fortunately, the Cave Viewer is now correctly rendering
 plots! I told you I had the latest driver, but this was not true. You see, I
 own a Compaq Presario v2010us and traditionally I've always went to the
 computer manufacturer website to look for the latest drivers, which is what
 I did this time. The website claimed it was the most up to date driver, but
 it wasn't. While looking for the umpteenth time at my graphics properties, I
 noticed Intel has an option to go to their website to check for drivers.
 Desperate, I gave this a try and sure enough, the Compaq website had lied to
 me. After downloading, installing and rebooting, the Compass plotter works
 fine now.
  
  I tried all your suggestions from your previous two postings before
 installing the new driver including using your small program, and if you are
 still interested in my findings I can elaborate. It's probably not worth
 mentioning, but after installing the driver, the crosses are occurring at
 different inch origins (pixel mode - 0,0 ; other modes - 8.2,8.2) and the
 0.01 inch mode is as thick as the pixel mode. But as long as the Compass
 Cave Viewer is working correctly this doesn't concern me. 
  
  I apologize for wasting your time, and thank you for all the help you've
 given. I've definitely learned some things about Compass (and the
 reliability of Compaq support) that I never knew before. Kudos to you Larry
 for your excellent program and phenomenal support. Thanks also to this
 wonderful community of Compass users.
  
  Ryan
  
  --- In [email protected], "Larry Fish"  wrote:
  
   Ryan,
   
   I wrote a small program to test the different modes that are available
 on a
   graphics card. It may give us more information about your problem. I
 have
   uploaded the file to the Compass Group site and it has the name:
   
   MapModeTest.zip 
   
   After you've downloaded the file, unzip it and put it somewhere on your
 hard
   drive. Double click on the file. The program shows a list of Windows
   "mapping modes." Pressing the "Cross" button will draw a cross on the
 screen
   using the mapping mode you've selected. The cross should be in the same
   place and the same size no matter what mode it is drawn in. The lines
 will
   be thicker in "Pixel" mode and the cross might jump by one pixel because
 of
   rounding errors. Otherwise they should be identical.
   
   Let me know what you find out.
   
   Larry
   
   ________________________________________
   From: [email protected]
 [mailto:[email protected]]
   On Behalf Of RyanY
   Sent: Friday, March 18, 2011 8:32 AM
   To: [email protected]
   Subject: [compass-users] Re: Cave Viewer inconsistently renders
 incorrect
   angles
   
    
   Larry et al,
   
   Thank you for the quick response!
   
   I neglected to mention that when I "printed" the cave plot, I actually
   printed to PDF (via CutePDF), not on paper. I would have thought that if
 it
   were an issue with an incorrect screen setting, the PDF plot should also
   show incorrect angles, but as far as I can tell the PDF plot is entirely
   accurate.
   
   Another thing worth mentioning is that when someone sends me a bitmap
 screen
   image from their computer of the same survey data the plot looks perfect
 to
   me, but when I make a bitmap screen image with my computer the plot
 remains
   incorrect.
   
   Admittedly, my screen is of oddball proportions (WXGA), but I am a
   resolution "purist" and always make sure to have my screen set at the
   maximum, undistorted resolution possible. My screen is 14" (diagonal)
 and is
   set to 1280x768 pixels. I believe with these settings, everything is 1:1
 (no
   distortion). Finally, it appears that the monitor adjustment is such
 that
   there is no black space between or extension beyond the screen borders
 (the
   screen has been automatically adjusted).
   
   My graphics card is actually the integrated rubbish that comes standard
 with
   most low end computers (Intel 82852/82855 GM/GME, Intel Extreme Graphics
 2),
   but it usually does the job just fine. My operating system is XP Home
   Edition, 2002, SP3. I've verified that my driver is the most up to date
   there is.
   
   Perhaps unsurprisingly, I opened your cross.plt file and the N-S lengths
   were indeed shorter than the W-E lengths (approximately a 4:5 ratio). Of
   course, the PDF plot lengths measured to be equal. I used the distance
 tool
   and the program told me they were the same lengths, so Compass thinks
 it's
   showing me an accurate plot.
   
   I am not entirely sure what the cause of my problem is, but at the
 moment I
   am of the opinion that Compass may have rendering issues with my
 particular
   resolution.
   
   Does anyone else have the newest Compass version and have a WXGA monitor
   that can confirm or deny my theory? It would also be interesting to see
 if
   running an older Compass version on my computer would produce the same
   distorted plot.
   
   Thanks again for all your help guys, and I hope this problem can be
 solved
   so I can use this fantastic program with confidence!
   
   --- In [email protected], "[email protected]"  wrote:
   
    I ran into the aspect ratio problem when I was taking screen shots
 from
   the
    Compass viewer. I intended to get into my graphics card controls to
 see if
    I could correct it. As it happened, I first updated my ATI graphic
 card
    driver, and that fixed the problem.
    
    The easiest test is to create a couple of fake shots, both the same
   length,
    one north-south and the other east-west. Get a screen shot into
 Photoshop
    and compare the pixel length.
    
    Dwight
    
    Original Message:
    -----------------
    From: Larry Fish [email protected]
    Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 03:46:32 -0600
    To: [email protected]
    Subject: RE: [compass-users] Cave Viewer inconsistently renders
 incorrect
    angles
    
    Ryan,
    
    Thanks for your email and questions. I've down loaded your files and
   images
    and spent some time looking at them. I think this is probably an
 "aspect
    ratio" issue, but I don't have quite enough information to be sure.    
    I'm going to give you a fairly large "brain-dump" so you can
 understand
   the
    issues and focus on certain details.
    
    This statement gives me a clue:
    
     What's interesting is that when I print the plot out, the
     angles SUDDENLY BECOME CORRECT!
    
    Compass uses exactly the same subroutines to print a file and display
 a
   file
    on the screen, so that rules out a mathematical or graphics error
 inside
    Compass. The most likely cause is the display and how it is setup,
    especially things that the "Aspect Ratio." Here is a detailed
 explanation
   of
    the issues:
    
    1. PRINTERS. When you print a cave plot, the printer uses an exact
 number
   of
    Pixels per inch in the left-right and up-down direction. As a result,
 when
    you print a line that is supposed to be 1-inch long, it will be 1-inch
   long
    on the paper. That's why your print out has the correct angles.
    
    2. SCREEN SCALING. The screen is different. Its scale and resolution
 are
    based on a several extraneous factors. For example, Windows assumes
 the
    screen has a certain resolution. Typically, it is 96 Dots Per Inch
 (DPI),
    but it can be other values. If Windows is set to 96 DPI, it doesn't
 really
    mean that a line 96 dots long will really be 1-inch long. The actual
 size
    depends on the Resolution of the monitor, the size of the monitor, the
   video
    card settings and how the monitor is adjusted. 
    
    For example, let's say you have a monitor whose screen is 16 inches
 wide.
   If
    your video card is set to a resolution of 1024 by 768, there will be
 1024
    pixels across the 16 inch width of the screen. That means that the
 actual
    scale is 64 dpi so a 96 pixel lines would actually be 1.5 inches long
 on
   the
    screen. If you change the video mode to 2048 by 1536, the actual
 screen
   DPI
    will now be 128 dpi and the 96 pixel line will only be 0.75-inch long.
 The
    important thing to understand is that, unlike the printer, the
 monitors
    scale and resolution depends of many factors and the computer can't
   control
    all of them.
    
    3. ASPECT RATIO. The problem gets more complicated because different
    monitors have different "aspect ratios." For example, on an old style
    non-HiDef monitor the "Aspect Ratio" is 4 to 3. That means that the
 ratio
   of
    the width to the height is 4 to 3. Newer, high def monitors have
 aspect
    ratios of 16 to 9. Some of the very newest monitors have aspect ratios
 of
   16
    to 10.
    
    When you setup your computer for a particular monitor, you must select
 a
    screen resolution that matches your monitor. If you don't, the pixels
 will
    be stretched or squashed horizontally or vertically. If this happens,
 the
    pixels won't be "Square" and the image will be distorted. The angles
   between
    lines will be distorted. This is the most likely cause of the problem
 you
    are seeing. 
    
    The first thing I would try is to check the monitor's resolution and
 make
    sure your video card was set for a matching resolution. Some people
 don't
    like to set their video resolution to match the monitor because it
 makes
   the
    text too small. If you are doing this, make sure the resolution you
 choose
    match the aspect ratio of your monitor. For example, if your monitor
 has a
   4
    by 3 aspect ratio, screen resolutions of 800x600, 1024x768 and
 1600x1200
   all
    have a 4 to 3 aspect ratio. I've have posted file that you can use to
 test
    to see if the aspect ratio is wrong. More on this below.
    
    4. MONITOR ADJUSTMENTS. On top of that, you can adjust the width of
 the
    image on the monitor using the monitor's own controls. For example,
 you
    might prefer to have an 1/4 inch border on the right and left side of
 the
    image to make sure you can the you are not cutting off part of the
   display.
    That small gap would change the Aspect Ratio enough to through the
 survey
    angles.
    
    5. MEASURED ANGLES. I loaded the file you posted into Compass and
   displayed
    the file in the Viewer. I then used the "Tools - Measure
 Distance/Angles"
    option to measure the angles of each shot in the cave. The tool allows
 you
    to lock a cursor on each survey station ("Nearest Station" button) so
 the
    measurements are extremely accurate. When I do this, the angles
 exactly
    match the compass angles in the survey data.
    
    This tools measures angles mathematically by calculating difference
   between
    the locations of each point on the screen. The key thing is that it is
 NOT
    measuring it visually, so it ignores all kinds of resolution, scaling
 and
    aspect ratio issues.
    
    This is something you can do too and it would give us more information
 to
    isolate the cause. Let me know if you need help using the tool.
    
    I have uploaded a file to the Compass Group called "Cross.plt." You
 should
    download it and double click on it. If Compass is installed properly,
 the
    Viewer will automatically open the file. The image will display a
 cross
   with
    equal length arms. (Be sure to expand the Viewer to full screen and
 zoom
   out
    a bit so you can see the ends of the cross arms.) If you measure the
 cross
    arms on the screen and they aren't equal, then the problem is probably
    caused because the video resolution settings don't match your monitor.
    
    It would also be useful to know more about your computer. What type of
    monitor and video card are you using, what resolution your are running
 and
    what operating system have you got? 
    
    Larry
    
    ________________________________________
    From: [email protected]
 [mailto:[email protected]]
    On Behalf Of RyanY
    Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 2:27 PM
    To: [email protected]
    Subject: [compass-users] Cave Viewer inconsistently renders incorrect
   angles
    
     
    Hi All! I apologize if I'm asking something that's already been asked,
 but
    I've searched both this forum and the archives and couldn't find a
 similar
    problem.
    
    My friend has over 6300 feet of survey data in Compass for a cave he's
   been
    working on. He recently bought a Pocket PC to sketch the cave with
 using
    PocketTopo. I offered to convert his Compass files into PocketTopo
 files.
    When I did, the PocketTopo plot looked a little different. I overlayed
 the
    Compass plot with the PocketTopo plot, and they definitely were
 different.
   I
    assumed it was an error of mine during file manipulation. I decided to
    determine the source of the error, so I made brand new survey files in
    Compass and PocketTopo *using only front sights* and *the exact same
   data*.
    Somehow, the plots were STILL different! So, I pulled out my
 transparent
    cave survey protractor and began measuring. Lo and behold, the Compass
   plot
    had some angles that were incorrect! I verified that I was in the plan
   view,
    so it's not that I was looking at the plot from a skewed view.
 Exporting
   to
    bitmap still gives me the wrong angles. What's interesting is that
 when I
    print the plot out, the angles SUDDENLY BECOME CORRECT!
    
    Do you guys have any ideas?? I suppose this could be some sort of
   incorrect
    setting, but surely there isn't a setting to make the angles appear
    different that what they should be? Could this be some sort of
 software
   bug?
    I have version 5.11.1.1.165
    
    Here are some pictures of the plots: 
    http://forums.caves.org/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=11762&p=101230#p101098
    
    Thanks for any help you can give. 
    
    ----------------------------------------------------------
    mail2web - Check your email from the web at
    http://link.mail2web.com/mail2web


Messsage #: 275
Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2011 01:47:33 -0600
From: "Larry Fish" 
Subject: New Version of the SVG Exporter

Hi Everyone,

I wanted to announce that I've just finished up a new version of the SVG
Exporter. Most of the changes were based on compatibility issues that I
discovered working with Illustrator CS2. I also added lots of options that
allow you to repair and deal with file corruption and compatibility issues.
Here is a description of the problems and changes I made:

1. ILLUSTRATOR SPLITS AND MOVES LAYERS. Illustrator sometimes takes
Compass/Walls tags and splits them up or embeds that at deeper level. This
would cause the SVG Exporter to miss part or all of the tag and not process
them. The result was that certain parts of the map would be adjusted
properly and certain parts would not. 

To solve this problem, the SVG Exporter is now smart enough to re-assemble
tags. It also searches to the bottom of all layers, not just the top layer,
for Compass/Walls tags.

2. ILLUSTRATOR REMOVES INKSCAPE TAGS. Adobe Illustrator sometimes removes
key "Inkscape" tags from the SVG file. This wouldn't be so bad except that
it leaves some other Inkscape tags in place. When that happens, the Inkscape
tags that are left in the file cannot be tied to a reference and the file
cannot be parsed correctly. That means that even Illustrator will get an
"Invalid File" error and tell you to "validate" the file before trying to
load it again. This is particularly disconcerting because, Illustrator will
load the file perfectly one time and then not the next. Even the Compass SVG
Exporter would get an error when it tried to load the SVG file for merging,
(although Inkscape would load it just fine.)

To solve this problem, the SVG Exporter now checks to make sure all the tags
are in place before it attempts to work with the file. To give the user
control over the tags, there is now a "Compatibility" option in the exporter
and merge/morph tools that allows you to select which tags are added or
removed from the file. There is a also a Repair Option that allows you fix
problems with the tags without doing any morphing or merging. These options
will not only add tags that you want in the file, it will also remove
unwanted tags if they are causing compatibility problems.

If you are working exclusively with Illustrator, you should set the SVG
Exporter to remove all Inkscape tags. It you want to use both Inkscape and
Illustrator on the file, you need to be aware that you will have to run the
file through the Repair Tool in the Exporter periodically to reinsert all
the Inkscape tags.

4. ILLUSTRATOR RENAMES LAYERS. Adobe Illustrator also renames some of the
key layers on a whim. For example, it might rename "w2d_vectors" to
"w2d_vectors_4_." When this happens, Compass cannot find the key layers. To
solve the problem, the program looks for key layers whose names have been
changed and corrects them.

5. PIXEL RESOLUTION. The SVG Exporter uses "Points" as the unit of measure
when specifying Paper Sizes and Margins in the SVG file. Since Points
translate directly into Inches or Millimeters, SVG files exported from
Compass will always show the correct paper size and margin.

On the other hand, a drawing generated by other programs or directly from
Inkscape or Illustrator will specify the paper size in pixels. Since there
is no universal standard for converting pixels to inches or millimeters, the
pixel values are hard to interpret.

For example, Adobe Illustrator defaults to using a scale 72 dots per inch
when converting pixels to a real-world unit such as inches. (This makes one
pixel equal to one "Point.") Inkscape, on the other hand, defaults to 90
dots per inch. If the SVG Exporter reads a document using the wrong number
of DPIs, the paper and margin sizes will be wrong. For this reason, there is
now a compatibility option that allows you to choose between Inkscape and
Illustrator modes.

If you want use both Inkscape and Illustrator on the same map, you should
either set Inkscape to 72 dpi or Illustrator to 90 dpi. 

SETTING INKSCAPE. To set Inkscape to a different resolution like 72 dpi,
choose the "File - Inkscape Options" from the menu bar. Next, select the
"Import/Export" option from the panel on the left. Finally, set "Default
export resolution."

SETTING ILLUSTRATOR. To set Illustrator to a different resolution such as 90
dpi, select the "Effect - Document Raster Effect Settings," from the menu
bar. In "Resolution Box," select the "Other" option and then enter the
resolution in the edit box to the right.

6. ORGANIZATION. When Compass processes an SVG file, it can adjust one item
at a time or it can adjust a group of items all at once. Adjusting items as
a group is useful when you have several items that have to be adjusted
together. For example, you might have a Number with a Circle around it to
represent Ceiling Heights. Because they have slightly different starting
positions, if they were adjusted separately, the number would no longer be
centered in the circle.

You control which items are adjusted together by putting them in "unnamed
groups." Compass looks for Unnamed groups adjusts all the items in the group
at once instead of one-at-a-time.

This can also lead to problems if you are not careful how you group items.
For example, let's say you have two groups that are organized like this:
  
    Line
  
  Text

The "Line" inside "Group 2" could get adjusted twice and move twice as far
as you would expect. This is because the Exporter would adjust both Group-1
and Group-2 since they both Unnamed groups. Because the "Line" item is
inside both groups, the adjustment would be twice as much as necessary.

To solve this problem, Compass now only adjusts the top most un-named group.
This solves most of the problems with nested Groups, but it may not fix
every possible combination of groupings. For this reason, you probably want
to avoid having unnamed groups nested inside other unnamed groups. 

7. ILLUSTRATOR EMBEDS BINARY DATA. When you save an SVG file from
Illustrator, Illustrator can save a "binary" copy of the Image inside the
SVG file. The Binary image is saved in a SVG group called "i:pgf" and is
actually just a copy of the standard "AI" file that Illustrator normally
uses. Saving this Binary data allows Illustrator to the load image faster
and save certain setting that SVG doesn't handle.

The Binary data causes a problem because Illustrator will ignore the rest of
the SVG file. If you have made any changes to the SVG part of the file,
Illustrator will ignore those changes and instead read the old, unchanged
binary data. In other words, Compass could make changes to the data and
Illustrator would ignore the changes.

To solve this problem, the SVG Exporter now has the option of removing the
Binary Data as a part of the Export or Merge/Morph process. It is also an
option when you Repair a file.

To avoid the problem in the first place, you should always disable the
"Preserve Illustrator Editing Capabilities" when you export an SVG file from
Illustrator. It is also a good idea to turn off all the following options
when you export a file:

Preserve Illustrator Editing Capabilities
Optimize for Adobe SVG Viewer
Include Adobe Graphic Server Data
Include Slicing Data
Use  element for Text on Path

10. ILLUSTRATOR/INKSCAPE TAGS. Illustrator requires a special tag
(i:layer="yes") in each SVG group before it will be treated as a "layer." In
the past, you had to manually convert the groups to layers. The SVG Exporter
now adds the special tag if you have the "Illustrator Compatibility" option
enabled. Likewise, Inkscape requires its own special tag for a group to be
seen as a Layer. The Compatibility Option now allow you add or remove these
tags.

11. CLIPPING WINDOW. The SVG Exporter normally exports a clipping window
around your map. This tells Illustrator or Inkscape not to draw any portion
of the map that might fall outside the margins. Unfortunately, Adobe
Illustrator versions 10, CS1 and CS2 do not support this kind of a clipping
window. If AI10, CS1 or CS2 tries to read a file with the clipping window,
it would two errors. First, Illustrator would give the Error message
"Clipping will be lost on roundtrip to Tiny." Second, the drawing would not
appear on the paper window but would appear up and to the right of the
paper.

The SVG Exporter has always had the ability to not export the Clipping
Windows if the "10/CS1/CS2 Compatible" option was enabled. However, it could
not remove the Clipping Window if you accidentally put one in. Your only
choice was to manually delete it. The new version SVG Exporter will remove
the Clipping Window during the Repair or Merge/Morph operation if the option
is turned off.

The new version is on the Compass web site.

Larry Fish


Messsage #: 276
Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2011 23:45:36 -0000
From: [email protected]
Subject: use of 'pass' in LRUD

Hello Larry
I have been using compass for many years and recently another caver has inputed data into the program and not used 'pass' for passages at L and R  but written in a distance as if the wall continued along the passage being surveyed.
Question: will this make a difference to the program and how so?

Thanks
Bob


Messsage #: 277
Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2011 18:26:56 -0600
From: "Larry Fish" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] use of 'pass' in LRUD

Hi Bob,

It shouldn't make much difference. When you enter the "pass" option,
depending on circumstances and settings, Compass may substitute the last
valid passage-wall distance and use it to draw the passage walls. What the
other caver is doing is very similar to what Compass does, except the caver
is better able to figure out what the correct distance should be. What
he/she is doing might actually improve the accuracy of the Compass display.

On the other hand, we don't enter enough Passage Wall information to
accurately display the true shape and size of the passage. To do it right,
we'd need more LRUDs along the length of a shot. It would also be better to
have more than just the four measurements - for example, eight passage
dimensions would be much better. Since we don't have more data, the 3D model
Compass constructs is just a rough approximation. As a result, entering or
not entering the "Pass" option won't make much difference.

Larry

  _____  

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, August 06, 2011 5:46 PM
Subject: [compass-users] use of 'pass' in LRUD

Hello Larry
I have been using compass for many years and recently another caver has
inputed data into the program and not used 'pass' for passages at L and R
but written in a distance as if the wall continued along the passage being
surveyed.
Question: will this make a difference to the program and how so?

Thanks
Bob

v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
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Messsage #: 278
Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2011 04:02:53 -0000
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: use of 'pass' in LRUD

hello LArry
thanks for the quick reply
Bob

 Hi Bob,
 
 It shouldn't make much difference. When you enter the "pass" option,
 depending on circumstances and settings, Compass may substitute the last
 valid passage-wall distance and use it to draw the passage walls. What the
 other caver is doing is very similar to what Compass does, except the caver
 is better able to figure out what the correct distance should be. What
 he/she is doing might actually improve the accuracy of the Compass display.
 
 On the other hand, we don't enter enough Passage Wall information to
 accurately display the true shape and size of the passage. To do it right,
 we'd need more LRUDs along the length of a shot. It would also be better to
 have more than just the four measurements - for example, eight passage
 dimensions would be much better. Since we don't have more data, the 3D model
 Compass constructs is just a rough approximation. As a result, entering or
 not entering the "Pass" option won't make much difference.
 
 Larry
 
   _____  
 
 From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
 On Behalf Of [email protected]
 Sent: Saturday, August 06, 2011 5:46 PM
 To: [email protected]
 Subject: [compass-users] use of 'pass' in LRUD
 
 Hello Larry
 I have been using compass for many years and recently another caver has
 inputed data into the program and not used 'pass' for passages at L and R
 but written in a distance as if the wall continued along the passage being
 surveyed.
 Question: will this make a difference to the program and how so?
 
 Thanks
 Bob


Messsage #: 279
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2011 16:12:43 -0000
From: "[email protected]" 
Subject: Section displays

Can anyone please inform if Compass has the facility to display extended sections ? I have seen and used the various projected sections but for a very curvy cave would prefer to show as extended instead. 
Thanks, Mark Tringham


Messsage #: 280
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2011 12:43:26 -0600
From: "Larry Fish" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] Section displays

Mark,

Thanks for your question. I assume that when you say "extended sections,"
you mean unfolding a profile so you see every shot as it's full extended
length. Compass calls this an "Unfolded Profile." It requires that you
recompile the cave to do this. In the Project Manager, choose the
"Options-Settings" item from the menu bar, then select the "Profile" tab.
Enable the "Unfolded Profile" option and then set the various options to
your liking. (If you have any questions about how the options work, press
the "Help" button and look at the section about "Unfolded Profiles."
Finally, recompile the cave. In the Viewer, select profile mode. The Viewer
will now show the cave in as an extended or unfolded profile. The option is
only available for profiles. 

Let me know if you have any questions.

Larry Fish

  _____  

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2011 10:13 AM
Subject: [compass-users] Section displays

Can anyone please inform if Compass has the facility to display extended
sections ? I have seen and used the various projected sections but for a
very curvy cave would prefer to show as extended instead. 
Thanks, Mark Tringham

v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
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Messsage #: 281
Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2011 16:31:31 -0000
From: "Tony Canike" 
Subject: Layers in SVG round tripping

I've been using Compass and Illustrator CS4 for a while, but have never used the SVG roundtripping feature. Just got another round of 2011 survey data from the team, and they added few more loops in 2011.  The line plot creaked and groaned, so I thought it would be a good time to learn the SVG roundtripping process before I start drawing the 2011 updates to the map.

I downloaded Larry's latest version of SVG Exporter, read his tutorial on adopting roundtripping, and think I understand what I need to do. 

I am at the stage where I need to organize my artwork into the SVG roundtrip-specific layers (e.g "w2d_*") and I have a couple questions about organizing the artwork into roundtrip-specific layers.

1.  Can I create sub-sub-layers of the w2d sym and shp layers to keep my art organized how I like it?  For example, can I define new layers "walls" and "ledges" under the "w2d_Walls_shp" layer?

2.  Does anyone have a cheat sheet to help figure out what artwork to put into which w2d layer.  For example, I think the leader lines for cross sections should be moved but not warped or rotated, so I think they need to go into a shp layer.  But what works best for everyone?  If I could save a day of trial and error it would really help!

Thanks,

Tony.

PS 7073 I'm working on your map, honest :) !


Messsage #: 282
Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2011 15:59:12 -0600
From: "Larry Fish" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] Layers in SVG round tripping

Hi Tony,

You can create sublayers under the standard layers and the SVG Exporter will
adjust all the sublayers the same as the standard layer.

The closest I can come to a "Cheat Sheet," is the "Layer Details" section of
the help file. You've probably already seen it, but in case you haven't, it
is under the "Concepts, Techniques and Details" section of the help file. At
the bottom is a list of all the standard layers and what they are used for.
There are some suggestions about what things could go in each layer.

Let me know if you have any more questions.

Larry

  _____  

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Tony Canike
Sent: Saturday, September 17, 2011 10:32 AM
Subject: [compass-users] Layers in SVG round tripping

I've been using Compass and Illustrator CS4 for a while, but have never used
the SVG roundtripping feature. Just got another round of 2011 survey data
from the team, and they added few more loops in 2011. The line plot creaked
and groaned, so I thought it would be a good time to learn the SVG
roundtripping process before I start drawing the 2011 updates to the map.

I downloaded Larry's latest version of SVG Exporter, read his tutorial on
adopting roundtripping, and think I understand what I need to do. 

I am at the stage where I need to organize my artwork into the SVG
roundtrip-specific layers (e.g "w2d_*") and I have a couple questions about
organizing the artwork into roundtrip-specific layers.

1. Can I create sub-sub-layers of the w2d sym and shp layers to keep my art
organized how I like it? For example, can I define new layers "walls" and
"ledges" under the "w2d_Walls_shp" layer?

2. Does anyone have a cheat sheet to help figure out what artwork to put
into which w2d layer. For example, I think the leader lines for cross
sections should be moved but not warped or rotated, so I think they need to
go into a shp layer. But what works best for everyone? If I could save a day
of trial and error it would really help!

Thanks,

Tony.

PS 7073 I'm working on your map, honest :) !

v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}


Messsage #: 283
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 02:11:10 +0000 (GMT)
From: Matt Cracknell 
Subject: SVG Exporter error

Hi all,

I am encountering an error when attempting to load an existing SVG map (created with SVG Exporter and edited with Inkscape) into the SVG Exporter. The error states "Device is not ready". 

I have had a quick look in the Compass group archives but have not seen any discussions for a similar error.

I have tried a few things like reinstalling the SVG Exporter, loading other PLT files and SVGs, mucking around with the compatability settings and even trying to repair the SVG. But alas the same error comes up.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Regards,

Matt Cracknell

(Ph) 0409 438 924

Alternative email
[email protected]

Hi all,I am encountering an error when attempting to load an existing SVG map (created with SVG Exporter and edited with Inkscape) into the SVG Exporter. The error states "Device is not ready". I have had a quick look in the Compass group archives but have not seen any discussions for a similar error. I have tried a few things like reinstalling the SVG Exporter, loading other PLT files and SVGs, mucking around with the compatability settings and even trying to repair the SVG. But alas the same error comes up.Any help would be greatly appreciated.Regards,Matt Cracknell(Ph) 0409 438 924Alternative [email protected]


Messsage #: 284
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 04:25:26 -0600
From: "Larry Fish" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] SVG Exporter error

Hi Matt,

I have not seen this error before. I will need to look at the data to
diagnose the problem. I will send you a private message with an email
address where you can send the data.

Larry

  _____  

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Matt Cracknell
Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2011 8:11 PM
Subject: [compass-users] SVG Exporter error

Hi all,

I am encountering an error when attempting to load an existing SVG map
(created with SVG Exporter and edited with Inkscape) into the SVG Exporter.
The error states "Device is not ready". 

I have had a quick look in the Compass group archives but have not seen any
discussions for a similar error. 

I have tried a few things like reinstalling the SVG Exporter, loading other
PLT files and SVGs, mucking around with the compatability settings and even
trying to repair the SVG. But alas the same error comes up.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Regards,

Matt Cracknell

(Ph) 0409 438 924

Alternative email

[email protected]

v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}


Messsage #: 285
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 11:09:36 +0000 (GMT)
From: Matt Cracknell 
Subject: Re: [compass-users] SVG Exporter error

Larry,

Thanks for that.

A
Matt Cracknell

(Ph) 0409 438 924

Alternative email
[email protected]

________________________________
From: Larry Fish 
Sent: Wednesday, 2 November 2011, 21:25
Subject: RE: [compass-users] SVG Exporter error

A 
Hi Matt,
A
I have not seen this error before. I will
need to look at the data to diagnose the problem. I will send you a private
message with an email address where you can send the data.
A
Larry
A
A

________________________________
 
From:[email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Matt Cracknell
Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2011
8:11 PM
Subject: [compass-users] SVG
Exporter error
A
A 
Hi all,
A
I am encountering an error when attempting to load an existing SVG
map (created with SVG Exporter and edited with Inkscape) into the SVG Exporter.
The error states "Device is not ready". 
A
I have had a quick look in the Compass group archives but have not
seen any discussions for a similar error.A
A
I have tried a few things like reinstalling the SVG Exporter,
loading other PLT files and SVGs, mucking around with the compatability
settings and even trying to repair the SVG. But alas the same error comes up.
A
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
A
Regards,
A
Matt Cracknell

(Ph) 0409 438 924
Alternative
email
[email protected]

Larry,Thanks for that. Matt Cracknell(Ph) 0409 438 924Alternative [email protected]: Larry Fish <[email protected]>To: [email protected]: Wednesday, 2 November 2011, 21:25Subject: RE: [compass-users] SVG Exporter error

 

Hi Matt, 

  
I have not seen this error before. I will
need to look at the data to diagnose the problem. I will send you a private
message with an email address where you can send the data. 

  
Larry 

 
  
From:
[email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Matt Cracknell
Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2011
8:11 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [compass-users] SVG
Exporter error 

   

   

Hi all, 

   

I am encountering an error when attempting to load an existing SVG
map (created with SVG Exporter and edited with Inkscape) into the SVG Exporter.
The error states "Device is not ready".  

   

I have had a quick look in the Compass group archives but have not
seen any discussions for a similar error.  

   

I have tried a few things like reinstalling the SVG Exporter,
loading other PLT files and SVGs, mucking around with the compatability
settings and even trying to repair the SVG. But alas the same error comes up. 

   

Any help would be greatly appreciated. 

   

Regards, 

   

Matt Cracknell 

(Ph) 0409 438 924 

Alternative
email 

[email protected] 


Messsage #: 286
Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 03:56:40 -0600
From: "Larry Fish" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] SVG Exporter error

Matt,

Did you get the private email I sent? If not, I will retransmit.

Larry

  _____  

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Matt Cracknell
Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2011 5:10 AM
Subject: Re: [compass-users] SVG Exporter error

Larry,

Thanks for that.

Matt Cracknell

(Ph) 0409 438 924

Alternative email

[email protected]

  _____  

From: Larry Fish 
Sent: Wednesday, 2 November 2011, 21:25
Subject: RE: [compass-users] SVG Exporter error

Hi Matt,

I have not seen this error before. I will need to look at the data to
diagnose the problem. I will send you a private message with an email
address where you can send the data.

Larry

  _____  

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Matt Cracknell
Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2011 8:11 PM
Subject: [compass-users] SVG Exporter error

Hi all,

I am encountering an error when attempting to load an existing SVG map
(created with SVG Exporter and edited with Inkscape) into the SVG Exporter.
The error states "Device is not ready". 

I have had a quick look in the Compass group archives but have not seen any
discussions for a similar error. 

I have tried a few things like reinstalling the SVG Exporter, loading other
PLT files and SVGs, mucking around with the compatability settings and even
trying to repair the SVG. But alas the same error comes up.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Regards,

Matt Cracknell

(Ph) 0409 438 924

Alternative email

[email protected]

v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}


Messsage #: 287
Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 22:25:05 +0000 (GMT)
From: Matt Cracknell 
Subject: Re: SVG Exporter error - FIXED!

Larry,

After a bit of searching I fixed the SVG Exporter error ("Device is not ready") that occured when attempting to load SVG files for round tripping. It appears that there was a bug in a Windows 7-64 bit MS XML handling code. This is fixed by getting the latest Microsoft MSXML 4.0 Service Pack 3 (Microsoft XML Core Services).

This can be downloaded at
http://www.microsoft.com/download/en/details.aspx?id=15697

Cheers,

Matt Cracknell

(Ph) 0409 438 924

Alternative email
[email protected]

________________________________
From: Larry Fish 
Sent: Sunday, 6 November 2011, 19:30
Subject: RE: SVG Exporter error
 
Matt,
A
I checked the files you sent and I can't
get them to fail. I tested them on both Windows XP and Window 7. I don't have
64-bit Win7 installed, so I couldn't test that version, but I kind of doubt
that is the issue. Here are some thoughts about the problem:
A
1. The error message "Device is not
ready" is an operating system error that usually indicates a problem with
a disk drive. Searching the internet, I see lots of people getting that error
message with USB hard drives and Windows 7. That makes me wonder if the files
might be on some kind of USB drive or thumb drive and that is causing the
problem. You might try copying the files to different drive or folder and
re-testing the operation.
A
2. I'm not sure I'm doing exactly the same
steps that you are doing. To test the problem, I loaded the
"Newdegate_Sept_2011.PLT" in the SVG Exporter then load the
"Newdegate_Sept_2011_example.svg." Perhaps you doing this in a
different order or you are working with different files. It would be very
helpful for you to explain exactly what steps you are performing and exactly
where the error occurs. Sometimes very small differences in procedure can make
a big difference. For example, one problem I tracked down a few years only
happened on a floppy disk, not on the hard drive. I couldn't duplicate the
problem no matter what I did, until the user happened mentioned that he had the
data on a floppy. Since I rarely used floppies, it never occurred to me to test
the problem on a floppy disk.
A
3. Another possibility is "Regional
Settings." Since you appear to be in the UK , I wonder if you might have
computer setup in a special way. If so, it might explain why I cannot reproduce
the problem.
A
For example, in much of Europe ,
they use a comma "," as the "decimal point" and a period
"." as the "thousands separator." In the US it is the
opposite. I have had several bugs in Compass that were caused by those differences.
If your computer was setup in a way that I haven?Tt anticipated, that
could explain why I can?Tt duplicate the problem.
A
You can get to the Regional Setting under
Win7, by going to the Start Menu and selecting the "Control Panel"
option. In the Control Panel, select "Region and Language." Finally,
on the "Formats" page, select the "Advanced" option. There
are a number of different settings here. The ones I have had the most trouble
with are the number format settings. 
A
Let me know what you think.
A
Larry

Larry,After a bit of searching I fixed the SVG Exporter error ("Device is not ready") that occured when attempting to load SVG files for round tripping. It appears that there was a bug in a Windows 7-64 bit MS XML handling code. This is fixed by getting the latest Microsoft MSXML 4.0 Service Pack 3 (Microsoft XML Core Services).This can be downloaded athttp://www.microsoft.com/download/en/details.aspx?id=15697Cheers,Matt Cracknell(Ph) 0409 438
 924Alternative [email protected]: Larry Fish <[email protected]>To: 'Matt Cracknell' <[email protected]>Sent: Sunday, 6 November 2011, 19:30Subject: RE: SVG Exporter error


Messsage #: 288
Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 15:50:51 -0700
From: "Larry Fish" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] Re: SVG Exporter error - FIXED!

Matt,

Thank you very much. Great find! That saves me a lot of head scratching. I'm
not sure I would have found it considering I don't have Win7-64 bits.

Larry

  _____  

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Matt Cracknell
Sent: Sunday, November 06, 2011 3:25 PM
Subject: [compass-users] Re: SVG Exporter error - FIXED!

Larry,

After a bit of searching I fixed the SVG Exporter error ("Device is not
ready") that occured when attempting to load SVG files for round tripping.
It appears that there was a bug in a Windows 7-64 bit MS XML handling code.
This is fixed by getting the latest Microsoft MSXML 4.0 Service Pack 3
(Microsoft XML Core Services).

This can be downloaded at

http://www.microsoft.com/download/en/details.aspx?id697

Cheers,

Matt Cracknell

(Ph) 0409 438 924

Alternative email

[email protected]

  _____  

From: Larry Fish 
Sent: Sunday, 6 November 2011, 19:30
Subject: RE: SVG Exporter error

Matt,

I checked the files you sent and I can't get them to fail. I tested them on
both Windows XP and Window 7. I don't have 64-bit Win7 installed, so I
couldn't test that version, but I kind of doubt that is the issue. Here are
some thoughts about the problem:

1. The error message "Device is not ready" is an operating system error that
usually indicates a problem with a disk drive. Searching the internet, I see
lots of people getting that error message with USB hard drives and Windows
7. That makes me wonder if the files might be on some kind of USB drive or
thumb drive and that is causing the problem. You might try copying the files
to different drive or folder and re-testing the operation.

2. I'm not sure I'm doing exactly the same steps that you are doing. To test
the problem, I loaded the "Newdegate_Sept_2011.PLT" in the SVG Exporter then
load the "Newdegate_Sept_2011_example.svg." Perhaps you doing this in a
different order or you are working with different files. It would be very
helpful for you to explain exactly what steps you are performing and exactly
where the error occurs. Sometimes very small differences in procedure can
make a big difference. For example, one problem I tracked down a few years
only happened on a floppy disk, not on the hard drive. I couldn't duplicate
the problem no matter what I did, until the user happened mentioned that he
had the data on a floppy. Since I rarely used floppies, it never occurred to
me to test the problem on a floppy disk.

3. Another possibility is "Regional Settings." Since you appear to be in the
UK , I wonder if you might have computer setup in a special way. If so, it
might explain why I cannot reproduce the problem.

For example, in much of Europe , they use a comma "," as the "decimal point"
and a period "." as the "thousands separator." In the US it is the opposite.
I have had several bugs in Compass that were caused by those differences. If
your computer was setup in a way that I haven't anticipated, that could
explain why I can't duplicate the problem.

You can get to the Regional Setting under Win7, by going to the Start Menu
and selecting the "Control Panel" option. In the Control Panel, select
"Region and Language." Finally, on the "Formats" page, select the "Advanced"
option. There are a number of different settings here. The ones I have had
the most trouble with are the number format settings. 

Let me know what you think.

Larry

v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}

st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }


Messsage #: 289
Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2011 17:16:36 -0000
From: "[email protected]" 
Subject: Loasding compass into Widows 7

I had a problem loading compass software. No icons appeared and I cannot start the software even tho the software folders are present on 'C' drive. Any similar experiences with other users or fix advice please.
Mark Tringham


Messsage #: 290
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 04:15:34 -0700
From: "Larry Fish" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] Loasding compass into Widows 7

Hi Mark,

Thanks for you question.

I don't think I've heard of anyone having similar problem. Compass should
put the Project Manager Icon on the Desk Top when you install Compass. You
don't provide many details, so I need to ask a few questions:

1. Are you installing the Base Compass program or are you installing one of
the other Compass support programs?

2. When you install Compass, do you see the Compass Installing walk you
through a series of questions about the installation?

3. What is in the Compass installation folder? You should find a copy of
"comp32.exe," which is the Project Manager.

4. You should be able to double click on "comp32.exe" and it should run the
program.

In general, you need to give me as many details about the process as you
can. 

Larry Fish

  _____  

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of [email protected]
Sent: Monday, November 07, 2011 10:17 AM
Subject: [compass-users] Loasding compass into Widows 7

I had a problem loading compass software. No icons appeared and I cannot
start the software even tho the software folders are present on 'C' drive.
Any similar experiences with other users or fix advice please.
Mark Tringham