Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 13:23:41 +0000 (GMT)
From: Matt Cracknell 
Subject: Displaying passage dimensions "values" in Viewer32

Hi,

I would like to display LRUD (or LUDR) "values" with my PLT file view in the Viewer32 program. Similar to how station labels/coordinates/elevation etc. can be displayed. I have had a look at the ASCII view of the PLT and know that passage dimensions exist in numeric format in the file. However, there does not seem to be a way to display this information throught the GUI (correct me if I am wrong). 

Ideally, this information could also be transferred to the SVG output as a "layer" for display in Inkscape (but I will settle for Viewer32 at the moment) so that mapping passage height can be complete quickly. 

Alternatively, I can envisage this being done in ArcGIS but I would like to not have to use (very expensive) proprietory software... having said this maybe I can do it GRASS if there is no quick alternative?

Cheers,� � � 

�
Matt Cracknell

(Ph) 0409 438 924

Alternative email
[email protected]

Hi,I would like to display LRUD (or LUDR) "values" with my PLT file view in the Viewer32 program. Similar to how station labels/coordinates/elevation etc. can be displayed. I have had a look at the ASCII view of the PLT and know that passage dimensions exist in numeric format in the file. However, there does not seem to be a way to display this information throught the GUI (correct me if I am wrong). Ideally, this information could also be transferred to the SVG output as a "layer" for display in Inkscape (but I will settle for Viewer32 at the moment) so that mapping passage height can be complete quickly. Alternatively, I can envisage this
 being done in ArcGIS but I would like to not have to use (very expensive) proprietory software... having said this maybe I can do it GRASS if there is no quick alternative?Cheers,       Matt Cracknell(Ph) 0409 438 924Alternative [email protected]

Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 04:02:37 -0700
From: "Larry Fish" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] Displaying passage dimensions "values" in Viewer32

Hi Matt,

Thanks for your email. Your question set me in motion and I have added the
feature you wanted to the Compass Viewer. To enable the option, you start by
selecting "Preferences - Passage Wall Modeling" option from the menu bar.
Next, enable the "Passage Wall Display" and then select the any one of the
following: "Mark From," "Mark To," or "Mark From/To." Finally, on the
"Options" Page, enable the "Display LRUD Values" option.

The color, size and other properties of the font are controlled by the "Shot
Information Font." You can modify it by selecting the "Preferences - Set
Colors Fonts" option from the menu bar.

The new version is up on the Compass web site. Let me know what you think.

Larry

  _____  

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Matt Cracknell
Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2012 6:24 AM
Subject: [compass-users] Displaying passage dimensions "values" in Viewer32

Hi,

I would like to display LRUD (or LUDR) "values" with my PLT file view in the
Viewer32 program. Similar to how station labels/coordinates/elevation etc.
can be displayed. I have had a look at the ASCII view of the PLT and know
that passage dimensions exist in numeric format in the file. However, there
does not seem to be a way to display this information throught the GUI
(correct me if I am wrong). 

Ideally, this information could also be transferred to the SVG output as a
"layer" for display in Inkscape (but I will settle for Viewer32 at the
moment) so that mapping passage height can be complete quickly. 

Alternatively, I can envisage this being done in ArcGIS but I would like to
not have to use (very expensive) proprietory software... having said this
maybe I can do it GRASS if there is no quick alternative?

Cheers,      

Matt Cracknell

(Ph) 0409 438 924

Alternative email

[email protected]

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Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 11:19:11 +0000 (GMT)
From: Matt Cracknell 
Subject: Re: [compass-users] Displaying passage dimensions "values" in Viewer32

Thanks Larry for the LRUD display in Compass viewer. This is exactly what I required. 

Cheers

A�
Matt Cracknell

(Ph) 0409 438 924

Alternative email
[email protected]

________________________________
 From: Matt Cracknell 
Sent: Friday, 27 January 2012, 0:23
Subject: [compass-users] Displaying passage dimensions "values" in Viewer32

A� 
Hi,

I would like to display LRUD (or LUDR) "values" with my PLT file view in the Viewer32 program. Similar to how station labels/coordinates/elevation etc. can be displayed. I have had a look at the ASCII view of the PLT and know that passage dimensions exist in numeric format in the file. However, there does not seem to be a way to display this information throught the GUI (correct me if I am wrong). 

Ideally, this information could also be transferred to the SVG output as a "layer" for display in Inkscape (but I will settle for Viewer32 at the moment) so that mapping passage height can be complete quickly. 

Alternatively, I can envisage this being done in ArcGIS but I would like to not have to use (very expensive) proprietory software... having said this maybe I can do it GRASS if there is no quick alternative?

Cheers,A� A� A� 
A�
Matt Cracknell

(Ph) 0409 438 924

Alternative email
[email protected]

Thanks Larry for the LRUD display in Compass viewer. This is exactly what I required. Cheers Matt Cracknell(Ph) 0409 438 924Alternative [email protected]        From: Matt Cracknell <[email protected]> To: compass <[email protected]>  Sent: Friday, 27 January 2012, 0:23 Subject: [compass-users] Displaying passage dimensions "values" in Viewer32   

 
      
      Hi,I would like to display LRUD (or LUDR) "values" with my PLT file view in the Viewer32 program. Similar to how station labels/coordinates/elevation etc. can be displayed. I have had a look at the ASCII view of the PLT and know that passage dimensions exist in numeric format in the file. However, there does not seem to be a way to display this information throught the GUI (correct me if I am wrong). Ideally, this information could also be transferred to the SVG output as a "layer" for display in Inkscape (but I will settle for Viewer32 at the moment) so that mapping passage height can be complete quickly. Alternatively, I can envisage this
 being done in ArcGIS but I would like to not have to use (very expensive) proprietory software... having said this maybe I can do it GRASS if there is no quick alternative?Cheers,       Matt Cracknell(Ph) 0409 438 924Alternative [email protected]

Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2012 21:05:17 +0100
From: "Paul De Bie" 
Subject: 3D printing a cave

Hi, 

you've probably heard of 3D printing. This technology is rapidly evolving. In 5 or 10 years it will
be everywhere.
It is already possible to print extremely complex 3D objects. 
Google in Google Images on "3d printing art" and you'll see.

"Extremely complex" makes me think of caves. 

Has anyone already experimented with this for printing a 3D model of a cave? 
For some complex caves it would be fantastic and even necessary to really understand the cave. 
And I guess some people would like to have a (very) small 3D model of Lechuguilla on there desk. 

In time, it might even replace the standard plan or elevation drawing...

Compass is now already capable of exporting to VRML files, but I understood dat the standard format
to "feed" 3D printers is SLT.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STL_(file_format)

Larry have you or some Compass user ever thought of this possibility?

cheers

Paul De Bie
http://www.scavalon.be
http://scavalon.blogspot.com

Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2012 23:02:11 +0100
From: Martin Sluka 
Subject: Re: [compass-users] 3D printing a cave

On 16.2.2012, at 21:05, Paul De Bie wrote:

 you've probably heard of 3D printing. This technology is rapidly  
 evolving. In 5 or 10 years it will
 be everywhere.

:)))

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reprap

http://reprap.org/wiki/RepRap

Good luck

Martin

Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2012 10:50:02 -0600
From: "John Lovaas" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] Digest Number 143

 I discussed making a 3D model of a cave with two 3D printer dealers before
the 2007 NSS Convention- I was planning on entering it in the art salon, as
there would be no legend, north arrow, etc.  Just a cool object.  They
needed a file in 3ds format, which I gave them- I believe we converted the
Compass data in Microstation.

I never heard back from either company.  Oh well.  Minimum charge at the
time was $500; I haven't shopped around for prices lately.

The model would be as detailed as the survey data collected in the cave; a
LIDAR model would be impressive, if the LIDAR data can be accurately
converted to what is normally a architectural/manufacturing format.        
________________________________________________________________________
1a. 3D printing a cave
    Posted by: "Paul De Bie" [email protected] paul_debie
    Date: Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:05 pm ((PST))

Hi, 

you've probably heard of 3D printing. This technology is rapidly evolving.
In 5 or 10 years it will be everywhere.
It is already possible to print extremely complex 3D objects. 
Google in Google Images on "3d printing art" and you'll see.

"Extremely complex" makes me think of caves. 

Has anyone already experimented with this for printing a 3D model of a cave?

For some complex caves it would be fantastic and even necessary to really
understand the cave. 
And I guess some people would like to have a (very) small 3D model of
Lechuguilla on there desk. 

In time, it might even replace the standard plan or elevation drawing...

Compass is now already capable of exporting to VRML files, but I understood
dat the standard format to "feed" 3D printers is SLT.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STL_(file_format)

Larry have you or some Compass user ever thought of this possibility?

cheers

Paul De Bie
http://www.scavalon.be
http://scavalon.blogspot.com

Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2012 13:33:34 -0700
From: "Larry Fish" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] 3D printing a cave

Hi Paul,

I have thought a lot about using one of the 3D printers to print a cave
model. It would be fascinating to have 3D model of Lechuguilla. I'm not
aware of anyone actually doing it. I have looked at several 3D printers that
are available on the market:

Here is a cheap, build-it-yourself printer that costs about $750 in kit
form:

http://www.engadget.com/2009/06/10/video-makerbots-build-it-yourself-3d-prin
ter-in-action-replic/

Here is one that makes 3D models strong enough to be used as tools such as
wrenches:

http://www.zcorp.com/en/Products/3D-Printers/ZPrinter-150/spage.aspx

Another possibility:

http://cubify.com/

I've also been looking at 3D scanners that could be used to map the interior
of the cave just by moving around. Here is an example of using the Kinect
Fusion gaming device that is used with the X-Box. Microsoft has developed
experimental software that can scan a room and instantly reconstruct a 3D
model of the interior.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSh8Voanp3c

Here are some papers on how it works:

http://research.microsoft.com/pubs/155416/kinectfusion-uist-comp.pdf

http://research.microsoft.com/pubs/155378/ismar2011.pdf

The Kinect scanner costs about $125, so all we'd need is the software:

http://www.amazon.com/Kinect-Sensor-Adventures-Xbox-360/dp/B002BSA298

Larry

  _____  

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Paul De Bie
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 1:05 PM
Subject: [compass-users] 3D printing a cave

Hi, 

you've probably heard of 3D printing. This technology is rapidly evolving.
In 5 or 10 years it will
be everywhere.
It is already possible to print extremely complex 3D objects. 
Google in Google Images on "3d printing art" and you'll see.

"Extremely complex" makes me think of caves. 

Has anyone already experimented with this for printing a 3D model of a cave?

For some complex caves it would be fantastic and even necessary to really
understand the cave. 
And I guess some people would like to have a (very) small 3D model of
Lechuguilla on there desk. 

In time, it might even replace the standard plan or elevation drawing...

Compass is now already capable of exporting to VRML files, but I understood
dat the standard format
to "feed" 3D printers is SLT.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STL_(file_format)

Larry have you or some Compass user ever thought of this possibility?

cheers

Paul De Bie
http://www.scavalon.be
http://scavalon.blogspot.com

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Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2012 22:50:16 +0100
From: Martin Sluka 
Subject: Re: [compass-users] 3D printing a cave

On 17.2.2012, at 21:33, Larry Fish wrote:

 I have thought a lot about using one of the 3D printers to print a  
 cave model.

According to some articles about RepRap project of selfmade 3D  
printer: the main problem is to print something as mushroom. There  
isn't "support material" to support overhang parts in model yet. But  
there is a research to find cheap material which will be possible to  
remove easy (disolute) and print with two heads one material of model  
and second one support material.

Martin

Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2012 19:39:28 +0100
From: "Paul De Bie" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] 3D printing a cave

Hi Larry,
 
I guess the main problem is the scale of the printed object. And the cost of course. Cost/scale are
related of course. 
OK with one of those DIY printers one could print a very tiny model of a cave, that you could study
with a magnifying glass. It would also be extremely fragile because a 1 meter diameter gallery would
become just fractions of a millimeter thick on such small scales. It would be more interesting to
have a "print" that is say 0.5-1 metre big :-)
Probably such printers already exist but the cost for printing the cave model would be very high. 
 
But maybe it is a chicken/egg situation. AFAIK no cave software delivers the output format that is
need by those 3D printers.  That's why nobody has ever printed a cave in 3D I think. 
 
The 3D Scanning is an interesting technology also. But still quite experimental, I think. 
 
ciao

Paul De Bie
http://www.scavalon.be  
http://scavalon.blogspot.com  

  _____  

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Larry Fish
Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 9:34 PM
Subject: RE: [compass-users] 3D printing a cave

Hi Paul,

I have thought a lot about using one of the 3D printers to print a cave model. It would be
fascinating to have 3D model of Lechuguilla. I'm not aware of anyone actually doing it. I have
looked at several 3D printers that are available on the market:

Here is a cheap, build-it-yourself printer that costs about $750 in kit form:

http://www.engadget.com/2009/06/10/video-makerbots-build-it-yourself-3d-printer-in-action-replic/

Here is one that makes 3D models strong enough to be used as tools such as wrenches:

http://www.zcorp.com/en/Products/3D-Printers/ZPrinter-150/spage.aspx

Another possibility:

http://cubify.com/

I've also been looking at 3D scanners that could be used to map the interior of the cave just by
moving around. Here is an example of using the Kinect Fusion gaming device that is used with the
a 3D model of the interior.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSh8Voanp3c

Here are some papers on how it works:

http://research.microsoft.com/pubs/155416/kinectfusion-uist-comp.pdf

http://research.microsoft.com/pubs/155378/ismar2011.pdf

The Kinect scanner costs about $125, so all we'd need is the software:

http://www.amazon.com/Kinect-Sensor-Adventures-Xbox-360/dp/B002BSA298

Larry

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Hi Larry,
 
I guess the main problem is the scale of the 
printed object. And the cost of course. Cost/scale are related of 
course. 
OK with one of those DIY printers one could print a very tiny 
model of a cave, that you could study with a magnifying glass. It would 
also be extremely fragile because a 1 meter diameter gallery would become just 
fractions of a millimeter thick on such small scales. It would be more 
interesting to have a "print" that is say 0.5-1 metre big 
:-)
Probably such printers already exist but the cost for printing 
the cave model would be very high. 
 
But maybe it is a chicken/egg situation. AFAIK 
no cave software delivers the output format that is need by those 3D 
printers.  That's why nobody has ever printed a cave in 3D I think. 

 
The 3D Scanning is an interesting technology also. But still 
quite experimental, I think. 
 
ciao
Paul De Biehttp://www.scavalon.behttp://scavalon.blogspot.com
 
  
  From: [email protected] 
  [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Larry 
  FishSent: Friday, February 17, 2012 9:34 PMTo: 
  [email protected]: RE: [compass-users] 3D 
  printing a cave
  
  Hi 
  Paul,
   
  I have thought a lot 
  about using one of the 3D printers to print a cave model. It would be 
  fascinating to have 3D model of Lechuguilla. I’m not aware of anyone actually 
  doing it. I have looked at several 3D printers that are available on the 
  market:
  Here is a cheap, 
  build-it-yourself printer that costs about $750 in kit 
  form:
  http://www.engadget.com/2009/06/10/video-makerbots-build-it-yourself-3d-printer-in-action-replic/
  Here is one that 
  makes 3D models strong enough to be used as tools such as 
  wrenches:
  http://www.zcorp.com/en/Products/3D-Printers/ZPrinter-150/spage.aspx
  Another 
  possibility:
  http://cubify.com/
  I’ve also been 
  looking at 3D scanners that could be used to map the interior of the cave just 
  by moving around. Here is an example of using the Kinect Fusion gaming device 
  that is used with the X-Box. Microsoft has developed experimental software 
  that can scan a room and instantly reconstruct a 3D model of the 
  interior.
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSh8Voanp3c
  Here are some papers 
  on how it works:
  http://research.microsoft.com/pubs/155416/kinectfusion-uist-comp.pdf
  http://research.microsoft.com/pubs/155378/ismar2011.pdf
  The Kinect scanner 
  costs about $125, so all we’d need is the 
  software:
  http://www.amazon.com/Kinect-Sensor-Adventures-Xbox-360/dp/B002BSA298
  Larry
   
   
   

Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2012 16:58:09 -0600
From: "Aram, Richard B" 
Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL]RE: [compass-users] 3D printing a cave

greetings,

I don't have a solution but can share my unfulfilled dream.  I am a geologist and have looked for a software that would allow us to flesh out a digital 3D survey into true and easily-editable 3D bodies, and to include digital photos of the cave passage cross sections, relevant geology (rock layers, rock structures such as folds and faults, surface topography with satellite imagery draped over it, and then the capability to view it at all angles and to fly through it.  That is far beyond the capability that we should expect from Compass.  Compass does many things really well (huge thanks to Larry!).

I work in the petroleum business:  we have software tools to visualize seismic data and well data in 3D, but not the kind of other geo-detail I'd like, and most 3D viz tools have pretty unfriendly user interfaces.  Alas.

I continue to play around with Lewis and Clark Caverns State Park in Montana, my old Masters thesis.  The map view of the cave is a confusing mess because the geology is complicated.  The limestone layers are no longer flat, but have been tilted steeply and folded into a reverse Z shape.  I have taken digital survey data from a recent survey and superimposed on that some false surveys to mimic a mesh of the tilted, folded rock layers.  Any one static view of that is still hard to understand, but rotating and animating it through Compass starts to help a lot.  I should probably ask permission to share any graphics of that from the fine folks who loaned me the digital survey data.  I was part of an earlier survey and mapping (1977-79) but that was all done on paper and some of the old notes are missing.

Lewis and Clark Caverns State Park has an old clay 3D model of the cave, but it is incomplete and lacks any geology (rock layers).  I experimented with building a 3D model from sheets of clear plastic, tilted and folded like the rock layers, then drawing the cave passages on that.  That places them pretty close to proper 3D geometry.  That should have worked better than it did, but I learned that I am a poorer carpenter than expected.  Simply building the 3D model in Compass and on the plastic sheets helped me to think out a lot of things in 3D, but unfortunately that's all in my head where no one else can see it.

Rich Aram

[cid:491333422@19022012-21E8]

[cid:491333422@19022012-21EF]

________________________________
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Larry Fish
Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 2:34 PM
Subject: [EXTERNAL]RE: [compass-users] 3D printing a cave

Hi Paul,
I have thought a lot about using one of the 3D printers to print a cave model. It would be fascinating to have 3D model of Lechuguilla. I'm not aware of anyone actually doing it. I have looked at several 3D printers that are available on the market:
Here is a cheap, build-it-yourself printer that costs about $750 in kit form:
http://www.engadget.com/2009/06/10/video-makerbots-build-it-yourself-3d-printer-in-action-replic/
Here is one that makes 3D models strong enough to be used as tools such as wrenches:
http://www.zcorp.com/en/Products/3D-Printers/ZPrinter-150/spage.aspx
Another possibility:
http://cubify.com/
I've also been looking at 3D scanners that could be used to map the interior of the cave just by moving around. Here is an example of using the Kinect Fusion gaming device that is used with the X-Box. Microsoft has developed experimental software that can scan a room and instantly reconstruct a 3D model of the interior.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSh8Voanp3c
Here are some papers on how it works:
http://research.microsoft.com/pubs/155416/kinectfusion-uist-comp.pdf
http://research.microsoft.com/pubs/155378/ismar2011.pdf
The Kinect scanner costs about $125, so all we'd need is the software:
http://www.amazon.com/Kinect-Sensor-Adventures-Xbox-360/dp/B002BSA298
Larry
________________________________
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Paul De Bie
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 1:05 PM
Subject: [compass-users] 3D printing a cave

Hi,

you've probably heard of 3D printing. This technology is rapidly evolving. In 5 or 10 years it will
be everywhere.
It is already possible to print extremely complex 3D objects.
Google in Google Images on "3d printing art" and you'll see.

"Extremely complex" makes me think of caves.

Has anyone already experimented with this for printing a 3D model of a cave?
For some complex caves it would be fantastic and even necessary to really understand the cave.
And I guess some people would like to have a (very) small 3D model of Lechuguilla on there desk.

In time, it might even replace the standard plan or elevation drawing...

Compass is now already capable of exporting to VRML files, but I understood dat the standard format
to "feed" 3D printers is SLT.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STL_(file_format)

Larry have you or some Compass user ever thought of this possibility?

cheers

Paul De Bie
http://www.scavalon.be
http://scavalon.blogspot.com

greetings,
 
I don't have a solution but can share my unfulfilled 
dream.  I am a geologist and have looked for a software that would allow us 
to flesh out a digital 3D survey into true and easily-editable 3D bodies, and to 
include digital photos of the cave passage cross sections, relevant geology 
(rock layers, rock structures such as folds and faults, surface topography with 
satellite imagery draped over it, and then the capability to view it at all 
angles and to fly through it.  That is far beyond the capability that we 
should expect from Compass.  Compass does many things really well (huge 
thanks to Larry!).  
 
I work in the petroleum business:  we have 
software tools to visualize seismic data and well data in 3D, but not the kind 
of other geo-detail I'd like, and most 3D viz tools have pretty unfriendly user 
interfaces.  Alas.
 
I continue to play around with Lewis and Clark 
Caverns State Park in Montana, my old Masters thesis.  The map view of 
the cave is a confusing mess because the geology is complicated.  The 
limestone layers are no longer flat, but have been tilted steeply and folded 
into a reverse Z shape.  I have taken digital survey data from a recent 
survey and superimposed on that some false surveys to mimic a mesh of the 
tilted, folded rock layers.  Any one static view of that is still hard to 
understand, but rotating and animating it through Compass starts to help a 
lot.  I should probably ask permission to share any graphics of that from 
the fine folks who loaned me the digital survey data.  I was part of an 
earlier survey and mapping (1977-79) but that was all done on paper and 
some of the old notes are missing.
 
Lewis and Clark Caverns State Park has an old clay 3D 
model of the cave, but it is incomplete and lacks any geology (rock 
layers).  I experimented with building a 3D model from sheets of clear 
plastic, tilted and folded like the rock layers, then drawing the cave passages 
on that.  That places them pretty close to proper 3D geometry.  That 
should have worked better than it did, but I learned that I am a poorer 
carpenter than expected.  Simply building the 3D model in Compass and on 
the plastic sheets helped me to think out a lot of things in 3D, but 
unfortunately that's all in my head where no one else can see 
it.
 

Rich Aram
 
 

 

 
 
 

From: [email protected] 
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Larry 
FishSent: Friday, February 17, 2012 2:34 PMTo: 
[email protected]: [EXTERNAL]RE: [compass-users] 
3D printing a cave
  

Hi 
Paul,

I have thought a lot 
about using one of the 3D printers to print a cave model. It would be 
fascinating to have 3D model of Lechuguilla. I’m not aware of anyone actually 
doing it. I have looked at several 3D printers that are available on the 
market:
Here is a cheap, 
build-it-yourself printer that costs about $750 in kit 
form:
http://www.engadget.com/2009/06/10/video-makerbots-build-it-yourself-3d-printer-in-action-replic/
Here is one that makes 
3D models strong enough to be used as tools such as 
wrenches:
http://www.zcorp.com/en/Products/3D-Printers/ZPrinter-150/spage.aspx
Another 
possibility:
http://cubify.com/
I’ve also been looking 
at 3D scanners that could be used to map the interior of the cave just by moving 
around. Here is an example of using the Kinect Fusion gaming device that is used 
with the X-Box. Microsoft has developed experimental software that can scan a 
room and instantly reconstruct a 3D model of the 
interior.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSh8Voanp3c
Here are some papers on 
how it works:
http://research.microsoft.com/pubs/155416/kinectfusion-uist-comp.pdf
http://research.microsoft.com/pubs/155378/ismar2011.pdf
The Kinect scanner 
costs about $125, so all we’d need is the software:
http://www.amazon.com/Kinect-Sensor-Adventures-Xbox-360/dp/B002BSA298
Larry

From: 
[email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Paul De BieSent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 1:05 
PMTo: 
[email protected]: [compass-users] 3D printing a 
cave

  

Hi, 
you've probably heard of 3D printing. This technology is rapidly 
evolving. In 5 or 10 years it willbe everywhere.It is already possible 
to print extremely complex 3D objects. Google in Google Images on "3d 
printing art" and you'll see."Extremely complex" makes me think of 
caves. Has anyone already experimented with this for printing a 3D model 
of a cave? For some complex caves it would be fantastic and even necessary 
to really understand the cave. And I guess some people would like to have a 
(very) small 3D model of Lechuguilla on there desk. In time, it might 
even replace the standard plan or elevation drawing...Compass is now 
already capable of exporting to VRML files, but I understood dat the standard 
formatto "feed" 3D printers is SLT.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STL_(file_format)Larry 
have you or some Compass user ever thought of this 
possibility?cheersPaul De Biehttp://www.scavalon.behttp://scavalon.blogspot.com

Content-Description: Outlook.jpg

Content-Description: Outlook.jpg

Content-Description: Outlook.jpg

Content-Description: Outlook.jpg

Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2012 16:41:05 -0700
From: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL]RE: [compass-users] 3D printing a cave

Rich and All,

Perhaps Maya Software might be able to at least partially fulfill your
dream. I also wonder if it might be possible to print a 3D model of a cave
using Maya. I personally have not used Maya but I did assist a bat
researcher who exported 3D Compass data of Carlsbad Cavern to Maya where he
created 3D animations of bat flights out of the Cavern to see how many bats
could physically enter and exit Carlsbad Cavern in one night. Here is a
link to his paper:
http://www.mammalsociety.org/uploads/Hristov_etal_2010.pdf
The interesting stuff where he discusses using Compass data to create a 3D
model in Maya is on page 185 in the paragraph just before the Results
section. There is also a nifty figure on page 188 that has screen shots of
his 3D animation models.

Stan

Stan Allison, Cave Technician
Carlsbad Caverns National Park
3225 National Parks Highway
Carlsbad, NM  88220
575-785-3105
[email protected]
                                                                           
             "Aram, Richard B"                                             
                                      "[email protected]"     
             Sent by:                  ,    
             compass-users@yah         Paul De Bie                         
             oogroups.com              , Martin     
                                       Sluka          
                                                                        cc 
             02/19/2012 03:58                                              
             PM                                                    Subject 
                                       RE: [EXTERNAL]RE: [compass-users]   
                                       3D printing a cave                  
             Please respond to                                             
             compass-users@yah                                             
               oogroups.com                                                

greetings,

I don't have a solution but can share my unfulfilled dream.  I am a
geologist and have looked for a software that would allow us to flesh out a
digital 3D survey into true and easily-editable 3D bodies, and to include
digital photos of the cave passage cross sections, relevant geology (rock
layers, rock structures such as folds and faults, surface topography with
satellite imagery draped over it, and then the capability to view it at all
angles and to fly through it.  That is far beyond the capability that we
should expect from Compass.  Compass does many things really well (huge
thanks to Larry!).

I work in the petroleum business:  we have software tools to visualize
seismic data and well data in 3D, but not the kind of other geo-detail I'd
like, and most 3D viz tools have pretty unfriendly user interfaces.  Alas.

I continue to play around with Lewis and Clark Caverns State Park in
Montana, my old Masters thesis.  The map view of the cave is a confusing
mess because the geology is complicated.  The limestone layers are no
longer flat, but have been tilted steeply and folded into a reverse Z
shape.  I have taken digital survey data from a recent survey and
superimposed on that some false surveys to mimic a mesh of the tilted,
folded rock layers.  Any one static view of that is still hard to
understand, but rotating and animating it through Compass starts to help a
lot.  I should probably ask permission to share any graphics of that from
the fine folks who loaned me the digital survey data.  I was part of an
earlier survey and mapping (1977-79) but that was all done on paper and
some of the old notes are missing.

Lewis and Clark Caverns State Park has an old clay 3D model of the cave,
but it is incomplete and lacks any geology (rock layers).  I experimented
with building a 3D model from sheets of clear plastic, tilted and folded
like the rock layers, then drawing the cave passages on that.  That places
them pretty close to proper 3D geometry.  That should have worked better
than it did, but I learned that I am a poorer carpenter than expected.
Simply building the 3D model in Compass and on the plastic sheets helped me
to think out a lot of things in 3D, but unfortunately that's all in my head
where no one else can see it.

Rich Aram

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Larry Fish
Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 2:34 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [EXTERNAL]RE: [compass-users] 3D printing a cave

Hi Paul,

I have thought a lot about using one of the 3D printers to print a cave
model. It would be fascinating to have 3D model of Lechuguilla. I�?Tm not
aware of anyone actually doing it. I have looked at several 3D printers
that are available on the market:

Here is a cheap, build-it-yourself printer that costs about $750 in kit
form:

http://www.engadget.com/2009/06/10/video-makerbots-build-it-yourself-3d-printer-in-action-replic/

Here is one that makes 3D models strong enough to be used as tools such as
wrenches:

http://www.zcorp.com/en/Products/3D-Printers/ZPrinter-150/spage.aspx

Another possibility:

http://cubify.com/

I�?Tve also been looking at 3D scanners that could be used to map the
interior of the cave just by moving around. Here is an example of using the
Kinect Fusion gaming device that is used with the X-Box. Microsoft has
developed experimental software that can scan a room and instantly
reconstruct a 3D model of the interior.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSh8Voanp3c

Here are some papers on how it works:

http://research.microsoft.com/pubs/155416/kinectfusion-uist-comp.pdf

http://research.microsoft.com/pubs/155378/ismar2011.pdf

The Kinect scanner costs about $125, so all we�?Td need is the software:

http://www.amazon.com/Kinect-Sensor-Adventures-Xbox-360/dp/B002BSA298

Larry

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Paul De Bie
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 1:05 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [compass-users] 3D printing a cave

Hi,

you've probably heard of 3D printing. This technology is rapidly evolving.
In 5 or 10 years it will
be everywhere.
It is already possible to print extremely complex 3D objects.
Google in Google Images on "3d printing art" and you'll see.

"Extremely complex" makes me think of caves.

Has anyone already experimented with this for printing a 3D model of a
cave?
For some complex caves it would be fantastic and even necessary to really
understand the cave.
And I guess some people would like to have a (very) small 3D model of
Lechuguilla on there desk.

In time, it might even replace the standard plan or elevation drawing...

Compass is now already capable of exporting to VRML files, but I understood
dat the standard format
to "feed" 3D printers is SLT.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STL_(file_format)

Larry have you or some Compass user ever thought of this possibility?

cheers

Paul De Bie
http://www.scavalon.be
http://scavalon.blogspot.com

f|?� �AP

Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2012 20:02:00 -0700
From: "Larry Fish" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] 3D printing a cave

Hi Paul,

 But maybe it is a chicken/egg situation. AFAIK no cave software delivers
the output format that is need by those 3D printers.\

 That's why nobody has ever printed a cave in 3D I think. 

1. Actually, the 3D-Systems software accepts VRML which Compass can export.
It also accepts files from ArcGis, although it doesn't says specifically
what file formats those are. Since Compass exports Shapefiles, that is
another possible route.

http://www.zcorp.com/en/Products/3D-Printers/Compatible-Software/spage.aspx

2. There is also the option of DXF. Since DXF is the standard for all kinds
of CAD applications, there has to be a way to use DXF for 3D models.

3. There are also a number of file converters that will convert between
different formats. For example:

http://www.quick3d.org/features.html

4. Finally, the Compass 3D engine was designed to be very flexible. The same
software already exports DirectX, VRML, ShapeFiles, DXF, KML and Compass's
own 3D format. It would be very easy to add other standard formats. In fact,
I've already looked at exporting the 3DS since it is a relatively common
format.

Larry

  _____  

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Paul De Bie
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2012 11:39 AM
Subject: RE: [compass-users] 3D printing a cave

Hi Larry,

I guess the main problem is the scale of the printed object. And the cost of
course. Cost/scale are related of course. 

OK with one of those DIY printers one could print a very tiny model of a
cave, that you could study with a magnifying glass. It would also be
extremely fragile because a 1 meter diameter gallery would become just
fractions of a millimeter thick on such small scales. It would be more
interesting to have a "print" that is say 0.5-1 metre big :-)

Probably such printers already exist but the cost for printing the cave
model would be very high. 

But maybe it is a chicken/egg situation. AFAIK no cave software delivers the
output format that is need by those 3D printers.  That's why nobody has ever
printed a cave in 3D I think. 

The 3D Scanning is an interesting technology also. But still quite
experimental, I think. 

r&"n

Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 07:38:19 +0100
From: Martin Sluka 
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL]RE: [compass-users] 3D printing a cave

nvelope - but it is dificult to find its author.

Martin

OdeslA�no z iPhonu

19. 2. 2012 v 23:58, "Aram, Richard B" :

 greetings,
  
 I don't have a solution but can share my unfulfilled dream.  I am a geologist and have looked for a software that would allow us to flesh out a digital 3D survey into true and easily-editable 3D bodies, and to include digital photos of the cave passage cross sections, relevant geology (rock layers, rock structures such as folds and faults, surface topography with satellite imagery draped over it, and then the capability to view it at all angles and to fly through it.  That is far beyond the capability that we should expect from Compass.  Compass does many things really well (huge thanks to Larry!). 
  
 I work in the petroleum business:  we have software tools to visualize seismic data and well data in 3D, but not the kind of other geo-detail I'd like, and most 3D viz tools have pretty unfriendly user interfaces.  Alas.
  
 I continue to play around with Lewis and Clark Caverns State Park in Montana, my old Masters thesis.  The map view of the cave is a confusing mess because the geology is complicated.  The limestone layers are no longer flat, but have been tilted steeply and folded into a reverse Z shape.  I have taken digital survey data from a recent survey and superimposed on that some false surveys to mimic a mesh of the tilted, folded rock layers.  Any one static view of that is still hard to understand, but rotating and animating it through Compass starts to help a lot.  I should probably ask permission to share any graphics of that from the fine folks who loaned me the digital survey data.  I was part of an earlier survey and mapping (1977-79) but that was all done on paper and some of the old notes are missing.
  
 Lewis and Clark Caverns State Park has an old clay 3D model of the cave, but it is incomplete and lacks any geology (rock layers).  I experimented with building a 3D model from sheets of clear plastic, tilted and folded like the rock layers, then drawing the cave passages on that.  That places them pretty close to proper 3D geometry.  That should have worked better than it did, but I learned that I am a poorer carpenter than expected.  Simply building the 3D model in Compass and on the plastic sheets helped me to think out a lot of things in 3D, but unfortunately that's all in my head where no one else can see it.
  
 Rich Aram
 
 From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Larry Fish
 Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 2:34 PM
 To: [email protected]
 Subject: [EXTERNAL]RE: [compass-users] 3D printing a cave
 
 Hi Paul,
 
 I have thought a lot about using one of the 3D printers to print a cave model. It would be fascinating to have 3D model of Lechuguilla. I�?Tm not aware of anyone actually doing it. I have looked at several 3D printers that are available on the market:
 
 Here is a cheap, build-it-yourself printer that costs about $750 in kit form:
 
 http://www.engadget.com/2009/06/10/video-makerbots-build-it-yourself-3d-printer-in-action-replic/
 
 Here is one that makes 3D models strong enough to be used as tools such as wrenches:
 
 http://www.zcorp.com/en/Products/3D-Printers/ZPrinter-150/spage.aspx
 
 Another possibility:
 
 http://cubify.com/
 
 I�?Tve also been looking at 3D scanners that could be used to map the interior of the cave just by moving around. Here is an example of using the Kinect Fusion gaming device that is used with the X-Box. Microsoft has developed experimental software that can scan a room and instantly reconstruct a 3D model of the interior.
 
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSh8Voanp3c
 
 Here are some papers on how it works:
 
 http://research.microsoft.com/pubs/155416/kinectfusion-uist-comp.pdf
 
 http://research.microsoft.com/pubs/155378/ismar2011.pdf
 
 The Kinect scanner costs about $125, so all we�?Td need is the software:
 
 http://www.amazon.com/Kinect-Sensor-Adventures-Xbox-360/dp/B002BSA298
 
 Larry
 
 From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Paul De Bie
 Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 1:05 PM
 To: [email protected]
 Subject: [compass-users] 3D printing a cave
 
 Hi, 
 
 you've probably heard of 3D printing. This technology is rapidly evolving. In 5 or 10 years it will
 be everywhere.
 It is already possible to print extremely complex 3D objects. 
 Google in Google Images on "3d printing art" and you'll see.
 
 "Extremely complex" makes me think of caves. 
 
 Has anyone already experimented with this for printing a 3D model of a cave? 
 For some complex caves it would be fantastic and even necessary to really understand the cave. 
 And I guess some people would like to have a (very) small 3D model of Lechuguilla on there desk. 
 
 In time, it might even replace the standard plan or elevation drawing...
 
 Compass is now already capable of exporting to VRML files, but I understood dat the standard format
 to "feed" 3D printers is SLT.
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STL_(file_format)
 
 Larry have you or some Compass user ever thought of this possibility?
 
 cheers
 
 Paul De Bie
 http://www.scavalon.be
 http://scavalon.blogspot.com
 
 Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post | Start a New Topic
 Messages in this topic (3)

nvelope - but it is dificult to find its author.MartinOdeslA�no z iPhonu19. 2. 2012 v 23:58, "Aram, Richard B" <[email protected]>:

greetings,
 
I don't have a solution but can share my unfulfilled 
dream.  I am a geologist and have looked for a software that would allow us 
to flesh out a digital 3D survey into true and easily-editable 3D bodies, and to 
include digital photos of the cave passage cross sections, relevant geology 
(rock layers, rock structures such as folds and faults, surface topography with 
satellite imagery draped over it, and then the capability to view it at all 
angles and to fly through it.  That is far beyond the capability that we 
should expect from Compass.  Compass does many things really well (huge 
thanks to Larry!).  
 
I work in the petroleum business:  we have 
software tools to visualize seismic data and well data in 3D, but not the kind 
of other geo-detail I'd like, and most 3D viz tools have pretty unfriendly user 
interfaces.  Alas.
 
I continue to play around with Lewis and Clark 
Caverns State Park in Montana, my old Masters thesis.  The map view of 
the cave is a confusing mess because the geology is complicated.  The 
limestone layers are no longer flat, but have been tilted steeply and folded 
into a reverse Z shape.  I have taken digital survey data from a recent 
survey and superimposed on that some false surveys to mimic a mesh of the 
tilted, folded rock layers.  Any one static view of that is still hard to 
understand, but rotating and animating it through Compass starts to help a 
lot.  I should probably ask permission to share any graphics of that from 
the fine folks who loaned me the digital survey data.  I was part of an 
earlier survey and mapping (1977-79) but that was all done on paper and 
some of the old notes are missing.
 
Lewis and Clark Caverns State Park has an old clay 3D 
model of the cave, but it is incomplete and lacks any geology (rock 
layers).  I experimented with building a 3D model from sheets of clear 
plastic, tilted and folded like the rock layers, then drawing the cave passages 
on that.  That places them pretty close to proper 3D geometry.  That 
should have worked better than it did, but I learned that I am a poorer 
carpenter than expected.  Simply building the 3D model in Compass and on 
the plastic sheets helped me to think out a lot of things in 3D, but 
unfortunately that's all in my head where no one else can see 
it.
 

Rich Aram
 
 
<Outlook.jpg>
 
<Outlook.jpg>
 
 
 

From: [email protected] 
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Larry 
FishSent: Friday, February 17, 2012 2:34 PMTo: 
[email protected]: [EXTERNAL]RE: [compass-users] 
3D printing a cave
  

Hi 
Paul,

I have thought a lot 
about using one of the 3D printers to print a cave model. It would be 
fascinating to have 3D model of Lechuguilla. I�?Tm not aware of anyone actually 
doing it. I have looked at several 3D printers that are available on the 
market:
Here is a cheap, 
build-it-yourself printer that costs about $750 in kit 
form:
http://www.engadget.com/2009/06/10/video-makerbots-build-it-yourself-3d-printer-in-action-replic/
Here is one that makes 
3D models strong enough to be used as tools such as 
wrenches:
http://www.zcorp.com/en/Products/3D-Printers/ZPrinter-150/spage.aspx
Another 
possibility:
http://cubify.com/
I�?Tve also been looking 
at 3D scanners that could be used to map the interior of the cave just by moving 
around. Here is an example of using the Kinect Fusion gaming device that is used 
with the X-Box. Microsoft has developed experimental software that can scan a 
room and instantly reconstruct a 3D model of the 
interior.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSh8Voanp3c
Here are some papers on 
how it works:
http://research.microsoft.com/pubs/155416/kinectfusion-uist-comp.pdf
http://research.microsoft.com/pubs/155378/ismar2011.pdf
The Kinect scanner 
costs about $125, so all we�?Td need is the software:
http://www.amazon.com/Kinect-Sensor-Adventures-Xbox-360/dp/B002BSA298
Larry

From: 
[email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Paul De BieSent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 1:05 
PMTo: 
[email protected]: [compass-users] 3D printing a 
cave

  

Hi, 
you've probably heard of 3D printing. This technology is rapidly 
evolving. In 5 or 10 years it willbe everywhere.It is already possible 
to print extremely complex 3D objects. Google in Google Images on "3d 
printing art" and you'll see."Extremely complex" makes me think of 
caves. Has anyone already experimented with this for printing a 3D model 
of a cave? For some complex caves it would be fantastic and even necessary 
to really understand the cave. And I guess some people would like to have a 
(very) small 3D model of Lechuguilla on there desk. In time, it might 
even replace the standard plan or elevation drawing...Compass is now 
already capable of exporting to VRML files, but I understood dat the standard 
formatto "feed" 3D printers is SLT.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STL_(file_format)Larry 
have you or some Compass user ever thought of this 
possibility?cheersPaul De Biehttp://www.scavalon.behttp://scavalon.blogspot.com

Reply 
to sender | Reply 
to group | Reply 
via web post | Start 
a New Topic Messages 
in this topic (3) 

Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 04:50:31 -0700
From: "Larry Fish" 
Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL]RE: [compass-users] 3D printing a cave

Hi Rich,

Those are really neat photographs of your models and I can see the reversed
z-shaped folds of the limestone. I visited Lewis and Clark in 1964 and the
images vaguely match what I remember about the cave.

Thanks for the compliments about Compass.

Larry

  _____  

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Aram, Richard B
Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2012 3:58 PM
Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL]RE: [compass-users] 3D printing a cave

greetings,

I don't have a solution but can share my unfulfilled dream.  I am a
geologist and have looked for a software that would allow us to flesh out a
digital 3D survey into true and easily-editable 3D bodies, and to include
digital photos of the cave passage cross sections, relevant geology (rock
layers, rock structures such as folds and faults, surface topography with
satellite imagery draped over it, and then the capability to view it at all
angles and to fly through it.  That is far beyond the capability that we
should expect from Compass.  Compass does many things really well (huge
thanks to Larry!).  

I work in the petroleum business:  we have software tools to visualize
seismic data and well data in 3D, but not the kind of other geo-detail I'd
like, and most 3D viz tools have pretty unfriendly user interfaces.  Alas.

I continue to play around with Lewis and Clark Caverns State Park in
Montana, my old Masters thesis.  The map view of the cave is a confusing
mess because the geology is complicated.  The limestone layers are no longer
flat, but have been tilted steeply and folded into a reverse Z shape.  I
have taken digital survey data from a recent survey and superimposed on that
some false surveys to mimic a mesh of the tilted, folded rock layers.  Any
one static view of that is still hard to understand, but rotating and
animating it through Compass starts to help a lot.  I should probably ask
permission to share any graphics of that from the fine folks who loaned me
the digital survey data.  I was part of an earlier survey and mapping
(1977-79) but that was all done on paper and some of the old notes are
missing.

Lewis and Clark Caverns State Park has an old clay 3D model of the cave, but
it is incomplete and lacks any geology (rock layers).  I experimented with
building a 3D model from sheets of clear plastic, tilted and folded like the
rock layers, then drawing the cave passages on that.  That places them
pretty close to proper 3D geometry.  That should have worked better than it
did, but I learned that I am a poorer carpenter than expected.  Simply
building the 3D model in Compass and on the plastic sheets helped me to
think out a lot of things in 3D, but unfortunately that's all in my head
where no one else can see it.

Rich Aram

  _____  

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Larry Fish
Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 2:34 PM
Subject: [EXTERNAL]RE: [compass-users] 3D printing a cave

Hi Paul,

I have thought a lot about using one of the 3D printers to print a cave
model. It would be fascinating to have 3D model of Lechuguilla. I'm not
aware of anyone actually doing it. I have looked at several 3D printers that
are available on the market:

Here is a cheap, build-it-yourself printer that costs about $750 in kit
form:

http://www.engadget.com/2009/06/10/video-makerbots-build-it-yourself-3d-prin
ter-in-action-replic/

Here is one that makes 3D models strong enough to be used as tools such as
wrenches:

http://www.zcorp.com/en/Products/3D-Printers/ZPrinter-150/spage.aspx

Another possibility:

http://cubify.com/

I've also been looking at 3D scanners that could be used to map the interior
of the cave just by moving around. Here is an example of using the Kinect
Fusion gaming device that is used with the X-Box. Microsoft has developed
experimental software that can scan a room and instantly reconstruct a 3D
model of the interior.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSh8Voanp3c

Here are some papers on how it works:

http://research.microsoft.com/pubs/155416/kinectfusion-uist-comp.pdf

http://research.microsoft.com/pubs/155378/ismar2011.pdf

The Kinect scanner costs about $125, so all we'd need is the software:

http://www.amazon.com/Kinect-Sensor-Adventures-Xbox-360/dp/B002BSA298

Larry

  _____  

size=2 width="100%" alignInter tabIndex=-1 

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Paul De Bie
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 1:05 PM
Subject: [compass-users] 3D printing a cave

Hi, 

you've probably heard of 3D printing. This technology is rapidly evolving.
In 5 or 10 years it will
be everywhere.
It is already possible to print extremely complex 3D objects. 
Google in Google Images on "3d printing art" and you'll see.

"Extremely complex" makes me think of caves. 

Has anyone already experimented with this for printing a 3D model of a cave?

For some complex caves it would be fantastic and even necessary to really
understand the cave. 
And I guess some people would like to have a (very) small 3D model of
Lechuguilla on there desk. 

In time, it might even replace the standard plan or elevation drawing...

Compass is now already capable of exporting to VRML files, but I understood
dat the standard format
to "feed" 3D printers is SLT.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STL_(file_format)

Larry have you or some Compass user ever thought of this possibility?

cheers

Paul De Bie
http://www.scavalon.be
http://scavalon.blogspot.com

v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}

st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }

Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 13:09:12 +0100
From: Martin Sluka 
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL]RE: [compass-users] 3D printing a cave

On 20.2.2012, at 12:50, Larry Fish wrote:

 Hi Rich,
 Those are really neat photographs of your models and I can see the  
 reversed z-shaped folds of the limestone. I visited Lewis and Clark  
 in 1964 and the images vaguely match what I remember about the cave.
 Thanks for the compliments about Compass.
 Larry

 From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected] 
 ] On Behalf Of Aram, Richard B
 Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2012 3:58 PM
 To: [email protected]; Paul De Bie; Martin Sluka
 Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL]RE: [compass-users] 3D printing a cave

 greetings,

 I don't have a solution but can share my unfulfilled dream.  I am a  
 geologist and have looked for a software that would allow us to  
 flesh out a digital 3D survey into true and easily-editable 3D  
 bodies, and to include digital photos of the cave passage cross  
 sections, relevant geology (rock layers, rock structures such as  
 folds and faults, surface topography with satellite imagery draped  
 over it, and then the capability to view it at all angles and to fly  
 through it.  That is far beyond the capability that we should expect  
 from Compass.  Compass does many things really well (huge thanks to  
 Larry!).

 I work in the petroleum business:  we have software tools to  
 visualize seismic data and well data in 3D, but not the kind of  
 other geo-detail I'd like, and most 3D viz tools have pretty  
 unfriendly user interfaces.  Alas.

 I continue to play around with Lewis and Clark Caverns State Park in  
 Montana, my old Masters thesis.  The map view of the cave is a  
 confusing mess because the geology is complicated.  The limestone  
 layers are no longer flat, but have been tilted steeply and folded  
 into a reverse Z shape.  I have taken digital survey data from a  
 recent survey and superimposed on that some false surveys to mimic a  
 mesh of the tilted, folded rock layers.  Any one static view of that  
 is still hard to understand, but rotating and animating it through  
 Compass starts to help a lot.  I should probably ask permission to  
 share any graphics of that from the fine folks who loaned me the  
 digital survey data.  I was part of an earlier survey and mapping  
 (1977-79) but that was all done on paper and some of the old notes  
 are missing.

 Lewis and Clark Caverns State Park has an old clay 3D model of the  
 cave, but it is incomplete and lacks any geology (rock layers).  I  
 experimented with building a 3D model from sheets of clear plastic,  
 tilted and folded like the rock layers, then drawing the cave  
 passages on that.  That places them pretty close to proper 3D  
 geometry.  That should have worked better than it did, but I learned  
 that I am a poorer carpenter than expected.  Simply building the 3D  
 model in Compass and on the plastic sheets helped me to think out a  
 lot of things in 3D, but unfortunately that's all in my head where  
 no one else can see it.

 Rich Aram

 From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected] 
 ] On Behalf Of Larry Fish
 Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 2:34 PM
 To: [email protected]
 Subject: [EXTERNAL]RE: [compass-users] 3D printing a cave

 Hi Paul,
 I have thought a lot about using one of the 3D printers to print a  
 cave model. It would be fascinating to have 3D model of Lechuguilla.  
 I'm not aware of anyone actually doing it. I have looked at several  
 3D printers that are available on the market:
 Here is a cheap, build-it-yourself printer that costs about $750 in  
 kit form:
 http://www.engadget.com/2009/06/10/video-makerbots-build-it-yourself-3d-printer-in-action-replic/
 Here is one that makes 3D models strong enough to be used as tools  
 such as wrenches:
 http://www.zcorp.com/en/Products/3D-Printers/ZPrinter-150/spage.aspx
 Another possibility:
 http://cubify.com/
 I've also been looking at 3D scanners that could be used to map the  
 interior of the cave just by moving around. Here is an example of  
 using the Kinect Fusion gaming device that is used with the X-Box.  
 Microsoft has developed experimental software that can scan a room  
 and instantly reconstruct a 3D model of the interior.
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSh8Voanp3c
 Here are some papers on how it works:
 http://research.microsoft.com/pubs/155416/kinectfusion-uist-comp.pdf
 http://research.microsoft.com/pubs/155378/ismar2011.pdf
 The Kinect scanner costs about $125, so all we'd need is the software:
 http://www.amazon.com/Kinect-Sensor-Adventures-Xbox-360/dp/B002BSA298
 Larry
 size=2 width="100%" align=center tabIndex=-1
 From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected] 
 ] On Behalf Of Paul De Bie
 Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 1:05 PM
 To: [email protected]
 Subject: [compass-users] 3D printing a cave

 Hi,

 you've probably heard of 3D printing. This technology is rapidly  
 evolving. In 5 or 10 years it will
 be everywhere.
 It is already possible to print extremely complex 3D objects.
 Google in Google Images on "3d printing art" and you'll see.

 "Extremely complex" makes me think of caves.

 Has anyone already experimented with this for printing a 3D model of  
 a cave?
 For some complex caves it would be fantastic and even necessary to  
 really understand the cave.
 And I guess some people would like to have a (very) small 3D model  
 of Lechuguilla on there desk.

 In time, it might even replace the standard plan or elevation  
 drawing...

 Compass is now already capable of exporting to VRML files, but I  
 understood dat the standard format
 to "feed" 3D printers is SLT.
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STL_(file_format)

 Larry have you or some Compass user ever thought of this possibility?

 cheers

 Paul De Bie
 http://www.scavalon.be
 http://scavalon.blogspot.com

Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 13:18:37 +0100
From: Martin Sluka 
Subject: pictures from nvelope

This two pictures are from nvelope program but from year 1995! As I  
know author lives in Canada and use the nvelope (+15 years of  
development) till now. His name is
Jacques Farine.

Martin

Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 12:39:38 -0000
From: "caveresource" 
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL]RE: [compass-users] 3D printing a cave

Greetings,

I have seen several examples of 3D cave models over the years.  I began working on them in the early 1990s myself.  There are many interesting approaches, several of which have already been mentioned here.  Another great example that I have seen is a lineplot of the Holloch system laser etched in to a cube of lucite.  It would be very easy to do something similar with the Lech data.

I have some more info on this topic, but am currently travelling with limited email access.  I will try to share more when I return home.

Cheers,

Aaron
 
 On 20.2.2012, at 12:50, Larry Fish wrote:
 
  Hi Rich,
  Those are really neat photographs of your models and I can see the  
  reversed z-shaped folds of the limestone. I visited Lewis and Clark  
  in 1964 and the images vaguely match what I remember about the cave.
  Thanks for the compliments about Compass.
  Larry
 
  From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected] 
  ] On Behalf Of Aram, Richard B
  Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2012 3:58 PM
  To: [email protected]; Paul De Bie; Martin Sluka
  Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL]RE: [compass-users] 3D printing a cave
 
  greetings,
 
  I don't have a solution but can share my unfulfilled dream.  I am a  
  geologist and have looked for a software that would allow us to  
  flesh out a digital 3D survey into true and easily-editable 3D  
  bodies, and to include digital photos of the cave passage cross  
  sections, relevant geology (rock layers, rock structures such as  
  folds and faults, surface topography with satellite imagery draped  
  over it, and then the capability to view it at all angles and to fly  
  through it.  That is far beyond the capability that we should expect  
  from Compass.  Compass does many things really well (huge thanks to  
  Larry!).
 
  I work in the petroleum business:  we have software tools to  
  visualize seismic data and well data in 3D, but not the kind of  
  other geo-detail I'd like, and most 3D viz tools have pretty  
  unfriendly user interfaces.  Alas.
 
  I continue to play around with Lewis and Clark Caverns State Park in  
  Montana, my old Masters thesis.  The map view of the cave is a  
  confusing mess because the geology is complicated.  The limestone  
  layers are no longer flat, but have been tilted steeply and folded  
  into a reverse Z shape.  I have taken digital survey data from a  
  recent survey and superimposed on that some false surveys to mimic a  
  mesh of the tilted, folded rock layers.  Any one static view of that  
  is still hard to understand, but rotating and animating it through  
  Compass starts to help a lot.  I should probably ask permission to  
  share any graphics of that from the fine folks who loaned me the  
  digital survey data.  I was part of an earlier survey and mapping  
  (1977-79) but that was all done on paper and some of the old notes  
  are missing.
 
  Lewis and Clark Caverns State Park has an old clay 3D model of the  
  cave, but it is incomplete and lacks any geology (rock layers).  I  
  experimented with building a 3D model from sheets of clear plastic,  
  tilted and folded like the rock layers, then drawing the cave  
  passages on that.  That places them pretty close to proper 3D  
  geometry.  That should have worked better than it did, but I learned  
  that I am a poorer carpenter than expected.  Simply building the 3D  
  model in Compass and on the plastic sheets helped me to think out a  
  lot of things in 3D, but unfortunately that's all in my head where  
  no one else can see it.
 
  Rich Aram
 
  From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected] 
  ] On Behalf Of Larry Fish
  Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 2:34 PM
  To: [email protected]
  Subject: [EXTERNAL]RE: [compass-users] 3D printing a cave
 
  Hi Paul,
  I have thought a lot about using one of the 3D printers to print a  
  cave model. It would be fascinating to have 3D model of Lechuguilla.  
  I'm not aware of anyone actually doing it. I have looked at several  
  3D printers that are available on the market:
  Here is a cheap, build-it-yourself printer that costs about $750 in  
  kit form:
  http://www.engadget.com/2009/06/10/video-makerbots-build-it-yourself-3d-printer-in-action-replic/
  Here is one that makes 3D models strong enough to be used as tools  
  such as wrenches:
  http://www.zcorp.com/en/Products/3D-Printers/ZPrinter-150/spage.aspx
  Another possibility:
  http://cubify.com/
  I've also been looking at 3D scanners that could be used to map the  
  interior of the cave just by moving around. Here is an example of  
  using the Kinect Fusion gaming device that is used with the X-Box.  
  Microsoft has developed experimental software that can scan a room  
  and instantly reconstruct a 3D model of the interior.
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSh8Voanp3c
  Here are some papers on how it works:
  http://research.microsoft.com/pubs/155416/kinectfusion-uist-comp.pdf
  http://research.microsoft.com/pubs/155378/ismar2011.pdf
  The Kinect scanner costs about $125, so all we'd need is the software:
  http://www.amazon.com/Kinect-Sensor-Adventures-Xbox-360/dp/B002BSA298
  Larry
  size=2 width="100%" align=center tabIndex=-1
  From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected] 
  ] On Behalf Of Paul De Bie
  Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 1:05 PM
  To: [email protected]
  Subject: [compass-users] 3D printing a cave
 
  Hi,
 
  you've probably heard of 3D printing. This technology is rapidly  
  evolving. In 5 or 10 years it will
  be everywhere.
  It is already possible to print extremely complex 3D objects.
  Google in Google Images on "3d printing art" and you'll see.
 
  "Extremely complex" makes me think of caves.
 
  Has anyone already experimented with this for printing a 3D model of  
  a cave?
  For some complex caves it would be fantastic and even necessary to  
  really understand the cave.
  And I guess some people would like to have a (very) small 3D model  
  of Lechuguilla on there desk.
 
  In time, it might even replace the standard plan or elevation  
  drawing...
 
  Compass is now already capable of exporting to VRML files, but I  
  understood dat the standard format
  to "feed" 3D printers is SLT.
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STL_(file_format)
 
  Larry have you or some Compass user ever thought of this possibility?
 
  cheers
 
  Paul De Bie
  http://www.scavalon.be
  http://scavalon.blogspot.com

Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 10:32:31 -0700
From: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL]RE: [compass-users] 3D printing a cave

Rich and All,

Perhaps Maya Software might be able to at least partially fulfill your
dream. I also wonder if it might be possible to print a 3D model of a cave
using Maya. I personally have not used Maya but I did assist a bat
researcher who exported 3D Compass data of Carlsbad Cavern to Maya where he
created 3D animations of bat flights out of the Cavern to see how many bats
could physically enter and exit Carlsbad Cavern in one night. Here is a
link to his paper:
http://www.mammalsociety.org/uploads/Hristov_etal_2010.pdf
The interesting stuff where he discusses using Compass data to create a 3D
model in Maya is on page 185 in the paragraph just before the Results
section. There is also a nifty figure on page 188 that has screen shots of
his 3D animation models.

Stan

Stan Allison, Cave Technician
Carlsbad Caverns National Park
3225 National Parks Highway
Carlsbad, NM  88220
575-785-3105
[email protected]
                                                                           
             "Aram, Richard B"                                             
                                      "[email protected]"     
             Sent by:                  ,    
             compass-users@yah         Paul De Bie                         
             oogroups.com              , Martin     
                                       Sluka          
                                                                        cc 
             02/19/2012 03:58                                              
             PM                                                    Subject 
                                       RE: [EXTERNAL]RE: [compass-users]   
                                       3D printing a cave                  
             Please respond to                                             
             compass-users@yah                                             
               oogroups.com                                                

greetings,

I don't have a solution but can share my unfulfilled dream.  I am a
geologist and have looked for a software that would allow us to flesh out a
digital 3D survey into true and easily-editable 3D bodies, and to include
digital photos of the cave passage cross sections, relevant geology (rock
layers, rock structures such as folds and faults, surface topography with
satellite imagery draped over it, and then the capability to view it at all
angles and to fly through it.  That is far beyond the capability that we
should expect from Compass.  Compass does many things really well (huge
thanks to Larry!).

I work in the petroleum business:  we have software tools to visualize
seismic data and well data in 3D, but not the kind of other geo-detail I'd
like, and most 3D viz tools have pretty unfriendly user interfaces.  Alas.

I continue to play around with Lewis and Clark Caverns State Park in
Montana, my old Masters thesis.  The map view of the cave is a confusing
mess because the geology is complicated.  The limestone layers are no
longer flat, but have been tilted steeply and folded into a reverse Z
shape.  I have taken digital survey data from a recent survey and
superimposed on that some false surveys to mimic a mesh of the tilted,
folded rock layers.  Any one static view of that is still hard to
understand, but rotating and animating it through Compass starts to help a
lot.  I should probably ask permission to share any graphics of that from
the fine folks who loaned me the digital survey data.  I was part of an
earlier survey and mapping (1977-79) but that was all done on paper and
some of the old notes are missing.

Lewis and Clark Caverns State Park has an old clay 3D model of the cave,
but it is incomplete and lacks any geology (rock layers).  I experimented
with building a 3D model from sheets of clear plastic, tilted and folded
like the rock layers, then drawing the cave passages on that.  That places
them pretty close to proper 3D geometry.  That should have worked better
than it did, but I learned that I am a poorer carpenter than expected.
Simply building the 3D model in Compass and on the plastic sheets helped me
to think out a lot of things in 3D, but unfortunately that's all in my head
where no one else can see it.

Rich Aram

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Larry Fish
Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 2:34 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [EXTERNAL]RE: [compass-users] 3D printing a cave

Hi Paul,

I have thought a lot about using one of the 3D printers to print a cave
model. It would be fascinating to have 3D model of Lechuguilla. I�?Tm not
aware of anyone actually doing it. I have looked at several 3D printers
that are available on the market:

Here is a cheap, build-it-yourself printer that costs about $750 in kit
form:

http://www.engadget.com/2009/06/10/video-makerbots-build-it-yourself-3d-printer-in-action-replic/

Here is one that makes 3D models strong enough to be used as tools such as
wrenches:

http://www.zcorp.com/en/Products/3D-Printers/ZPrinter-150/spage.aspx

Another possibility:

http://cubify.com/

I�?Tve also been looking at 3D scanners that could be used to map the
interior of the cave just by moving around. Here is an example of using the
Kinect Fusion gaming device that is used with the X-Box. Microsoft has
developed experimental software that can scan a room and instantly
reconstruct a 3D model of the interior.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSh8Voanp3c

Here are some papers on how it works:

http://research.microsoft.com/pubs/155416/kinectfusion-uist-comp.pdf

http://research.microsoft.com/pubs/155378/ismar2011.pdf

The Kinect scanner costs about $125, so all we�?Td need is the software:

http://www.amazon.com/Kinect-Sensor-Adventures-Xbox-360/dp/B002BSA298

Larry

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Paul De Bie
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 1:05 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [compass-users] 3D printing a cave

Hi,

you've probably heard of 3D printing. This technology is rapidly evolving.
In 5 or 10 years it will
be everywhere.
It is already possible to print extremely complex 3D objects.
Google in Google Images on "3d printing art" and you'll see.

"Extremely complex" makes me think of caves.

Has anyone already experimented with this for printing a 3D model of a
cave?
For some complex caves it would be fantastic and even necessary to really
understand the cave.
And I guess some people would like to have a (very) small 3D model of
Lechuguilla on there desk.

In time, it might even replace the standard plan or elevation drawing...

Compass is now already capable of exporting to VRML files, but I understood
dat the standard format
to "feed" 3D printers is SLT.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STL_(file_format)

Larry have you or some Compass user ever thought of this possibility?

cheers

Paul De Bie
http://www.scavalon.be
http://scavalon.blogspot.com

Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2012 11:16:37 +0100
From: Martin Sluka 
Subject: Request for SVG samples

Dear friends

Because of possibility to create or edit map files for Therion in SVG  
(thanks to Thomas Holder's extension) may I ask you, please, to send  
me (privately) some samples of SVG maps you created? Just to test them  
in Inkscape export to Therion's .th2 file.

Thank you very much

Best caving and drawing

Martin Sluka

Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 21:15:54 -0500
From: "Aram, Richard B" 
Subject: cave models

hi Larry,

For your entertainment, here is a PDF showing how I have used Compass to better visualize and communicate the geology of Lewis and Clark Caverns State Park.  I already sent you a few photos of my attempt at a physical plastic model.  My grandfather the master carpenter would not be impressed with the quality of my construction.  I attempted something similar in Compass by building a lot of phony surveys to mimic the tilted and folded limestone layers.  It's all kind of complicated, but of course easier to visualize in the animation mode.  I can send you an example of that too just for fun, but that will have to be in a separate email.

The State Park owns the modern survey data and gave me permission to share these images.

F'!

________________________________
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Larry Fish
Sent: Monday, February 20, 2012 5:51 AM
Subject: [EXTERNAL]RE: [EXTERNAL]RE: [compass-users] 3D printing a cave

Hi Rich,
Those are really neat photographs of your models and I can see the reversed z-shaped folds of the limestone. I visited Lewis and Clark in 1964 and the images vaguely match what I remember about the cave.
Thanks for the compliments about Compass.
Larry

hi Larry,
 
For your entertainment, here is a PDF showing how I 
have used Compass to better visualize and communicate the geology of Lewis and 
Clark Caverns State Park.  I already sent you a few photos of my attempt at 
a physical plastic model.  My grandfather the master carpenter would not be 
impressed with the quality of my construction.  I attempted something 
similar in Compass by building a lot of phony surveys to mimic the tilted and 
folded limestone layers.  It's all kind of complicated, but of course 
easier to visualize in the animation mode.  I can send you an example of 
that too just for fun, but that will have to be in a separate 
email.
 
The State Park owns the modern survey data and gave me 
permission to share these images. 
 
Rich
 
 

From: [email protected] 
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Larry 
FishSent: Monday, February 20, 2012 5:51 AMTo: 
[email protected]: [EXTERNAL]RE: [EXTERNAL]RE: 
[compass-users] 3D printing a cave
  

Hi 
Rich,
Those are really neat 
photographs of your models and I can see the reversed z-shaped folds of the 
limestone. I visited Lewis and Clark in 1964 and the images vaguely match what I 
remember about the cave.
Thanks for the 
compliments about Compass.
Larry 

Content-Description: Aram_3D_model_examples_Lewis_and_Clark_Caverns.pdf

Content-Description: Aram_3D_model_examples_Lewis_and_Clark_Caverns.pdf

Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 21:15:21 -0700 (PDT)
From: Tom 
Subject: Re: [compass-users] cave models [1 Attachment]

That is really great work. Thanks for sharing. Is it possible to explain how the strata folds were inserted into Compass? I could use that in my maps.
Tom

ote:

From: Aram, Richard B 
Subject: [compass-users] cave models [1 Attachment]
Date: Tuesday, March 13, 2012, 7:15 PM

[Attachment(s) from Aram, Richard B included below]

hi Larry,
�
For your entertainment, here is a PDF showing how I 
have used Compass to better visualize and communicate the geology of Lewis and 
Clark Caverns State Park.� I already sent you a few photos of my attempt at 
a physical plastic model.� My grandfather the master carpenter would not be 
impressed with the quality of my construction.� I attempted something 
similar in Compass by building a lot of phony surveys to mimic the tilted and 
folded limestone layers.� It's all kind of complicated, but of course 
easier to visualize in the animation mode.� I can send you an example of 
that too just for fun, but that will have to be in a separate 
email.
�
The State Park owns the modern survey data and gave me 
permission to share these images. 
�
Rich
�
�

From: [email protected] 
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Larry 
Fish
Sent: Monday, February 20, 2012 5:51 AM
[email protected]
Subject: [EXTERNAL]RE: [EXTERNAL]RE: 
[compass-users] 3D printing a cave

� 

Hi 
Rich, 
Those are really neat 
photographs of your models and I can see the reversed z-shaped folds of the 
limestone. I visited Lewis and Clark in 1964 and the images vaguely match what I 
remember about the cave. 
Thanks for the 
compliments about Compass. 
Larry� 

       Attachment(s) from Aram, Richard B  
    
           1 of 1 File(s) 
     
     Aram_3D_model_examples_Lewis_and_Clark_Caverns.pdf

That is really great work. Thanks for sharing. Is it possible to explain how the strata folds were inserted into Compass? I could use that in my maps.Tom--- On Tue, 3/13/12, Aram, Richard B <[email protected]> wrote:From: Aram, Richard B <[email protected]>Subject: [compass-users] cave models [1 Attachment]To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>Date: Tuesday, March 13, 2012, 7:15 PM

Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 18:39:23 +0100
From: "Paul De Bie" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] cave models

It would intrest me too. But I guess it has been done by making many dummy survey legs (I have used
this technique to make 2D special grids, and also to represent the surface.)

Paul De Bie
http://www.scavalon.be  
http://scavalon.blogspot.com  

  _____  

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Tom
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 5:15 AM
Subject: Re: [compass-users] cave models

That is really great work. Thanks for sharing. Is it possible to explain how the strata folds were
inserted into Compass? I could use that in my maps.
Tom

From: Aram, Richard B 
Subject: [compass-users] cave models [1 Attachment]
Date: Tuesday, March 13, 2012, 7:15 PM

[Attachment(s)   from Aram, Richard B included below] 

hi Larry,
 
For your entertainment, here is a PDF showing how I have used Compass to better visualize and
communicate the geology of Lewis and Clark Caverns State Park.  I already sent you a few photos of
my attempt at a physical plastic model.  My grandfather the master carpenter would not be impressed
with the quality of my construction.  I attempted something similar in Compass by building a lot of
phony surveys to mimic the tilted and folded limestone layers.  It's all kind of complicated, but of
course easier to visualize in the animation mode.  I can send you an example of that too just for
fun, but that will have to be in a separate email.
 
The State Park owns the modern survey data and gave me permission to share these images. 
 
Rich

  _____  

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Larry Fish
Sent: Monday, February 20, 2012 5:51 AM
Subject: [EXTERNAL]RE: [EXTERNAL]RE: [compass-users] 3D printing a cave

Hi Rich,

Those are really neat photographs of your models and I can see the reversed z-shaped folds of the
limestone. I visited Lewis and Clark in 1964 and the images vaguely match what I remember about the
cave.

Thanks for the compliments about Compass.

Larry 

Attachment(s) from Aram, Richard B 

1 of 1 File(s) 
   
Aram_3D_model_examples_Lewis_and_Clark_Caverns.pdf

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It would intrest me too. But I guess it has been done by 
making many dummy survey legs (I have used this technique to make 2D 
special grids, and also to represent the surface.)
Paul De Biehttp://www.scavalon.behttp://scavalon.blogspot.com
 
  
  From: [email protected] 
  [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of TomSent: 
  Wednesday, March 14, 2012 5:15 AMTo: 
  [email protected]: Re: [compass-users] cave 
  models
    
      That is really great work. Thanks for sharing. Is it 
        possible to explain how the strata folds were inserted into Compass? I 
        could use that in my maps.Tom--- On Tue, 3/13/12, Aram, 
        Richard B <[email protected]> 
wrote:
        From: 
          Aram, Richard B <[email protected]>Subject: 
          [compass-users] cave models [1 Attachment]To: 
          "[email protected]" 
          <[email protected]>Date: Tuesday, March 13, 
          2012, 7:15 PM
          
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          [Attachment(s) from Aram, Richard B included 
          below] 
          hi Larry,
           
          For your entertainment, here is 
          a PDF showing how I have used Compass to better visualize and 
          communicate the geology of Lewis and Clark Caverns State Park.  I 
          already sent you a few photos of my attempt at a physical plastic 
          model.  My grandfather the master carpenter would not be 
          impressed with the quality of my construction.  I attempted 
          something similar in Compass by building a lot of phony surveys to 
          mimic the tilted and folded limestone layers.  It's all kind of 
          complicated, but of course easier to visualize in the animation 
          mode.  I can send you an example of that too just for fun, but 
          that will have to be in a separate email.
           
          The State Park owns the modern 
          survey data and gave me permission to share these images. 
          
           
          Rich
           
           
          
          From: [email protected] 
          [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Larry 
          FishSent: Monday, February 20, 2012 5:51 AMTo: 
          [email protected]: [EXTERNAL]RE: 
          [EXTERNAL]RE: [compass-users] 3D printing a cave
            
          
          Hi 
          Rich,
          Those are 
          really neat photographs of your models and I can see the reversed 
          z-shaped folds of the limestone. I visited Lewis and Clark in 1964 and 
          the images vaguely match what I remember about the 
          cave.
          Thanks for 
          the compliments about Compass.
          Larry 
          Attachment(s) 
          from Aram, Richard B 
          1 of 1 File(s) 
          
          Aram_3D_model_examples_Lewis_and_Clark_Caverns.pdf

Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 23:47:12 -0600
From: "Jon Jasper" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] cave models

For cool 3D visualizations, you should check out:
http://jonjasper.com/CavingResources/VRML.html

On the website I have 3D PDF, VRML (.WRL) made with Compass and ESRI
ArcScene.

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Paul De Bie
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 11:39 AM
Subject: RE: [compass-users] cave models

It would intrest me too. But I guess it has been done by making many dummy
survey legs (I have used this technique to make 2D special grids, and also
to represent the surface.)

Paul De Bie
http://www.scavalon.be  
http://scavalon.blogspot.com  

  _____  

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Tom
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 5:15 AM
Subject: Re: [compass-users] cave models

That is really great work. Thanks for sharing. Is it possible to explain how
the strata folds were inserted into Compass? I could use that in my maps.
Tom

wrote:

From: Aram, Richard B 
Subject: [compass-users] cave models [1 Attachment]
Date: Tuesday, March 13, 2012, 7:15 PM

[Attachment(s) from Aram, Richard B included below] 

hi Larry,

For your entertainment, here is a PDF showing how I have used Compass to
better visualize and communicate the geology of Lewis and Clark Caverns
State Park.  I already sent you a few photos of my attempt at a physical
plastic model.  My grandfather the master carpenter would not be impressed
with the quality of my construction.  I attempted something similar in
Compass by building a lot of phony surveys to mimic the tilted and folded
limestone layers.  It's all kind of complicated, but of course easier to
visualize in the animation mode.  I can send you an example of that too just
for fun, but that will have to be in a separate email.

The State Park owns the modern survey data and gave me permission to share
these images. 

F'!e

Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 08:40:44 +0100
From: Martin Sluka 
Subject: Re: [compass-users] cave models

On 15.3.2012, at 6:47, Jon Jasper wrote:

 For cool 3D visualizations, you should check out: http://jonjasper.com/CavingResources/VRML.html
 On the website I have 3D PDF, VRML (.WRL) made with Compass and ESRI  
 ArcScene.

An example of advanced 3D model generated according shapes of walls  
and passage height informations (http://therion.speleo.sk/3D.php):

m.

Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2012 09:31:17 -0500
From: "Jean Krejca" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] cave models [1 Attachment]

Thanks for your email.  I'll be out through March 23, please contact
[email protected] if you need something immediately.  Or call the
office at 512-291-4555.
 
Jean
 
Jean Krejca
President
Zara Environmental LLC
  www.zaraenvironmental.com
cell: 512-294-8636
office: 512-291-4555
fax: 1-866-908-9137

Clean

false
false
false

EN-US
X-NONE
X-NONE

Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 21:30:08 +0200
From: Martin Sluka 
Subject: Re: [compass-users] cave models

This technology was developed exactly for 3D model of Lechuguila:

http://www.science20.com/news_articles/twophoton_lithography_means_nanoscale_3d_printing-87953

m.

Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 18:18:22 -0700 (PDT)
From: Tom 
Subject: RE: how to display survey errors

Hi,
How does one display potential blunders?

We have a 16 mile cave with multiple entrances and I used fixed entrances to locate them. When the fixed stations are applied, long straight lines appear. It is hard to see all these lines. WinKarst used to show potential problems by using a dashed survey line. How can I display blunders/errors/problems in Compass?

thanks,
Tom

Hi,How does one display potential blunders?We have a 16 mile cave with multiple entrances and I used fixed entrances to locate them. When the fixed stations are applied, long straight lines appear. It is hard to see all these lines. WinKarst used to show potential problems by using a dashed survey line. How can I display blunders/errors/problems in Compass?thanks,Tom

Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 04:19:29 -0600
From: "Larry Fish" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] RE: how to display survey errors

Hi Tom,

In the Project Manager, select the "View-Find Blunders" option on the menu
bar. Press the "Compile" button and the program will analyze all the loops
in the cave, listing all the loops. Loops with potential blunders have red
or orange numbers. 

Once you find a loop that has blunders, highlight it and press the Analyze
Loop button. The rest of the tabs will now be populated with detailed
information about the most likely blundered shots. Press the "Help" button
for detailed information about how to use the blunder analysis.

Long straight lines are usually the result of bad tie-ins. You can use the
"Survey-Location" feature of Compass to identify which survey and shot the
long line belongs to. In the Compass Viewer, select the "Tools-Find
Survey/Station" option from the menu bar. Go to the "Stations" page then
click on the cave near the passage in question, then press the "Find Survey
With Cursor" button (second from the left). The program will highlight the
corresponding survey and show the nearest station.

Let me know if you have any more questions.

Larry

  _____  

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Tom
Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2012 7:18 PM
Subject: [compass-users] RE: how to display survey errors

Hi,
How does one display potential blunders?

We have a 16 mile cave with multiple entrances and I used fixed entrances to
locate them. When the fixed stations are applied, long straight lines
appear. It is hard to see all these lines. WinKarst used to show potential
problems by using a dashed survey line. How can I display
blunders/errors/problems in Compass?

thanks,
Tom

v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}

st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }

Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 08:28:15 -0700 (PDT)
From: Tom 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] RE: how to display survey errors

A�Larry,
thanks for the quick response.
A�
Yes, they are bad tie-ins. I was hoping that Compass would have a way of automatically highlighting bad tie-ins, rather than manually/visually looking for long straight lines and then highlighting them.A�

I did know about the "Find Blunders" option.
A�
Tom

From: Larry Fish 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] RE: how to display survey errors
Date: Tuesday, June 5, 2012, 3:19 AM

Hi Tom,
A�
In the Project Manager, select the �?oView-Find Blunders�?? option on the menu bar. Press the �?oCompile�?? button and the program will analyze all the loops in the cave, listing all the loops. Loops with potential blunders have red or orange numbers. 
A�
Once you find a loop that has blunders, highlight it and press the Analyze Loop button. The rest of the tabs will now be populated with detailed information about the most likely blundered shots. Press the �?oHelp�?? button for detailed information about how to use the blunder analysis.
A�
Long straight lines are usually the result of bad tie-ins. You can use the �?oSurvey-Location�?? feature of Compass to identify which survey and shot the long line belongs to. In the Compass Viewer, select the �?oTools-Find Survey/Station�?? option from the menu bar. Go to the �?oStations�?? page then click on the cave near the passage in question, then press the �?oFind Survey With Cursor�?? button (second from the left). The program will highlight the corresponding survey and show the nearest station.
A�
Let me know if you have any more questions.
A�
Larry
A�
A�
A�

From: [email protected] [mailto: [email protected] ] On Behalf Of Tom
Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2012 7:18 PM
Subject: [compass-users] RE: how to display survey errors
A�
A� 

Hi,
How does one display potential blunders?

We have a 16 mile cave with multiple entrances and I used fixed entrances to locate them. When the fixed stations are applied, long straight lines appear. It is hard to see all these lines. WinKarst used to show potential problems by using a dashed survey line. How can I display blunders/errors/problems in Compass?

thanks,
Tom

 Larry,
thanks for the quick response.
 
Yes, they are bad tie-ins. I was hoping that Compass would have a way of automatically highlighting bad tie-ins, rather than manually/visually looking for long straight lines and then highlighting them. 
I did know about the "Find Blunders" option.
 
Tom
--- On Tue, 6/5/12, Larry Fish <[email protected]> wrote:
From: Larry Fish <[email protected]>Subject: RE: [compass-users] RE: how to display survey errorsTo: [email protected]: Tuesday, June 5, 2012, 3:19 AM

Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 13:50:03 -0600
From: "Larry Fish" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] RE: how to display survey errors

Hi Tom,

The Blunder Tools in the Project Manager looks for bad tie-ins. It does this
by breaking the loop and testing nearby stations to see if they make a
better tie-in. The list shows the best tie-ins. I've found dozens of bad
tie-ins in Lechuguilla this way. The correct tie-ins are pretty obvious
because they usually have similar names to the old tie-in. Here are some
examples from Lechuguilla:

        OLD TIE    NEW TIE    OLD ERROR    NEW ERROR
 
             K6       K6!    174.64 ft.      6.19 ft.
         ECKJ11   ECKJ'11    152.78 ft.      1.75 ft.
           BNM4      DNM4    127.52 ft.      3.44 ft.
          EY52a     EY52A     87.47 ft.      5.39 ft.

Larry

  _____  

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Tom
Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 9:28 AM
Subject: RE: [compass-users] RE: how to display survey errors

 Larry,

thanks for the quick response.

Yes, they are bad tie-ins. I was hoping that Compass would have a way of
automatically highlighting bad tie-ins, rather than manually/visually
looking for long straight lines and then highlighting them. 

I did know about the "Find Blunders" option.

Tom

From: Larry Fish 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] RE: how to display survey errors
Date: Tuesday, June 5, 2012, 3:19 AM

Hi Tom,

In the Project Manager, select the "View-Find Blunders" option on the menu
bar. Press the "Compile" button and the program will analyze all the loops
in the cave, listing all the loops. Loops with potential blunders have red
or orange numbers. 

Once you find a loop that has blunders, highlight it and press the Analyze
Loop button. The rest of the tabs will now be populated with detailed
information about the most likely blundered shots. Press the "Help" button
for detailed information about how to use the blunder analysis. 

Long straight lines are usually the result of bad tie-ins. You can use the
"Survey-Location" feature of Compass to identify which survey and shot the
long line belongs to. In the Compass Viewer, select the "Tools-Find
Survey/Station" option from the menu bar. Go to the "Stations" page then
click on the cave near the passage in question, then press the "Find Survey
With Cursor" button (second from the left). The program will highlight the
corresponding survey and show the nearest station. 

Let me know if you have any more questions. 

Larry 

  _____  

From: [email protected] [mailto: [email protected] ]
On Behalf Of Tom
Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2012 7:18 PM
Subject: [compass-users] RE: how to display survey errors

Hi,
How does one display potential blunders?

We have a 16 mile cave with multiple entrances and I used fixed entrances to
locate them. When the fixed stations are applied, long straight lines
appear. It is hard to see all these lines. WinKarst used to show potential
problems by using a dashed survey line. How can I display
blunders/errors/problems in Compass?

thanks,
Tom

v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}

Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 21:56:44 +0200
From: "Paul De Bie" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] RE: how to display survey errors

strange example... I thought Compass was case-insensitive? 

        EY52a     EY52A     87.47 ft.      5.39 ft.

Paul De Bie
  http://www.scavalon.be
  http://scavalon.blogspot.com

  _____  

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Larry Fish
Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 9:50 PM
Subject: RE: [compass-users] RE: how to display survey errors

Hi Tom,

The Blunder Tools in the Project Manager looks for bad tie-ins. It does this by breaking the loop
and testing nearby stations to see if they make a better tie-in. The list shows the best tie-ins.
I've found dozens of bad tie-ins in Lechuguilla this way. The correct tie-ins are pretty obvious
because they usually have similar names to the old tie-in. Here are some examples from Lechuguilla:

        OLD TIE    NEW TIE    OLD ERROR    NEW ERROR
 
             K6       K6!    174.64 ft.      6.19 ft.
         ECKJ11   ECKJ'11    152.78 ft.      1.75 ft.
           BNM4      DNM4    127.52 ft.      3.44 ft.
          EY52a     EY52A     87.47 ft.      5.39 ft.

Larry

  _____  

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Tom
Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 9:28 AM
Subject: RE: [compass-users] RE: how to display survey errors

 Larry,

thanks for the quick response.

Yes, they are bad tie-ins. I was hoping that Compass would have a way of automatically highlighting
bad tie-ins, rather than manually/visually looking for long straight lines and then highlighting
them. 

I did know about the "Find Blunders" option.

Tom

From: Larry Fish 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] RE: how to display survey errors
Date: Tuesday, June 5, 2012, 3:19 AM

Hi Tom,

In the Project Manager, select the "View-Find Blunders" option on the menu bar. Press the "Compile"
button and the program will analyze all the loops in the cave, listing all the loops. Loops with
potential blunders have red or orange numbers. 

Once you find a loop that has blunders, highlight it and press the Analyze Loop button. The rest of
the tabs will now be populated with detailed information about the most likely blundered shots.
Press the "Help" button for detailed information about how to use the blunder analysis. 

Long straight lines are usually the result of bad tie-ins. You can use the "Survey-Location" feature
of Compass to identify which survey and shot the long line belongs to. In the Compass Viewer, select
the "Tools-Find Survey/Station" option from the menu bar. Go to the "Stations" page then click on
the cave near the passage in question, then press the "Find Survey With Cursor" button (second from
the left). The program will highlight the corresponding survey and show the nearest station. 

Let me know if you have any more questions. 

Larry 

  _____  

From: [email protected] [mailto: [email protected] ] On Behalf Of Tom
Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2012 7:18 PM
Subject: [compass-users] RE: how to display survey errors

Hi,
How does one display potential blunders?

We have a 16 mile cave with multiple entrances and I used fixed entrances to locate them. When the
fixed stations are applied, long straight lines appear. It is hard to see all these lines. WinKarst
used to show potential problems by using a dashed survey line. How can I display
blunders/errors/problems in Compass?

thanks,
Tom

v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}

Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 16:53:16 -0600
From: "Larry Fish" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] RE: how to display survey errors

Hi Paul,

No, Compass is case-sensitive. The very first cave I worked on and the cave
that Compass was written for had a mixture of cases, so even if I had wanted
to make it insensitive, I couldn't do it.

Larry

  _____  

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Paul De Bie
Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 1:57 PM
Subject: RE: [compass-users] RE: how to display survey errors

strange example... I thought Compass was case-insensitive? 

        EY52a     EY52A     87.47 ft.      5.39 ft.

Paul De Bie
  http://www.scavalon.be
  http://scavalon.blogspot.com

  _____  

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Larry Fish
Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 9:50 PM
Subject: RE: [compass-users] RE: how to display survey errors

Hi Tom,

The Blunder Tools in the Project Manager looks for bad tie-ins. It does this
by breaking the loop and testing nearby stations to see if they make a
better tie-in. The list shows the best tie-ins. I've found dozens of bad
tie-ins in Lechuguilla this way. The correct tie-ins are pretty obvious
because they usually have similar names to the old tie-in. Here are some
examples from Lechuguilla:

        OLD TIE    NEW TIE    OLD ERROR    NEW ERROR
 
             K6       K6!    174.64 ft.      6.19 ft.
         ECKJ11   ECKJ'11    152.78 ft.      1.75 ft.
           BNM4      DNM4    127.52 ft.      3.44 ft.
          EY52a     EY52A     87.47 ft.      5.39 ft.

Larry

  _____  

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Tom
Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 9:28 AM
Subject: RE: [compass-users] RE: how to display survey errors

 Larry,

thanks for the quick response.

Yes, they are bad tie-ins. I was hoping that Compass would have a way of
automatically highlighting bad tie-ins, rather than manually/visually
looking for long straight lines and then highlighting them. 

I did know about the "Find Blunders" option.

Tom

From: Larry Fish 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] RE: how to display survey errors
Date: Tuesday, June 5, 2012, 3:19 AM

Hi Tom,

In the Project Manager, select the "View-Find Blunders" option on the menu
bar. Press the "Compile" button and the program will analyze all the loops
in the cave, listing all the loops. Loops with potential blunders have red
or orange numbers. 

Once you find a loop that has blunders, highlight it and press the Analyze
Loop button. The rest of the tabs will now be populated with detailed
information about the most likely blundered shots. Press the "Help" button
for detailed information about how to use the blunder analysis. 

Long straight lines are usually the result of bad tie-ins. You can use the
"Survey-Location" feature of Compass to identify which survey and shot the
long line belongs to. In the Compass Viewer, select the "Tools-Find
Survey/Station" option from the menu bar. Go to the "Stations" page then
click on the cave near the passage in question, then press the "Find Survey
With Cursor" button (second from the left). The program will highlight the
corresponding survey and show the nearest station. 

Let me know if you have any more questions. 

Larry 

  _____  

From: [email protected] [mailto: [email protected] ]
On Behalf Of Tom
Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2012 7:18 PM
Subject: [compass-users] RE: how to display survey errors

Hi,
How does one display potential blunders?

We have a 16 mile cave with multiple entrances and I used fixed entrances to
locate them. When the fixed stations are applied, long straight lines
appear. It is hard to see all these lines. WinKarst used to show potential
problems by using a dashed survey line. How can I display
blunders/errors/problems in Compass?

thanks,
Tom

v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}

Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 02:13:25 -0600
From: "Larry Fish" 
Subject: New Version of Compass

Hi Everyone,
I've just finished adding a new feature to Compass that many people have
requested. It allows you to save all the parameters from Complex Plotting
options. 
Here is description of the feature from the help file:
"Loading/Saving All Settings. You have the option of saving all the Complex
Settings so you can restore the display to its current state without going
through the task of manually setting each individual option. To save the
settings, go to the Options Page and press the "Save All Settings" button.
Files are saved with the extension "ccml," but you can choose any name for
the file and you can save as many different setting files as you want by
choosing different names for the files.
The program currently saves 41 different parameters including the settings
for each individual survey and section, the spacing and colors of all the
Color Bars and every other important setting. The file format is XML, which
means you can edit the file with a normal text editor or parse it with
various XML parsing tools.
The settings can be restored by pressing the "Load All Settings" Button on
the Options page. This will restore all settings, but it will not enable the
display of Complex Options. This you must enable manually using the Enable
Complex Plotting control described at the top of the page.
Normally, the set of complex settings can only apply to one cave or one plot
file. For example, you wouldn't want to use the Complex settings for
Carlsbad Cavern on Mammoth Cave because many of the parameters would be
totally different. For example, the depth-bar settings would be entirely
different because the caves have such different depths. For this reason, the
program warns you if the Complex files came from a different cave than the
currently being displayed. 
If you use this option with the option to save "Views" of the cave, you can
setup unique images of the cave that combine all the complex features of the
cave with specific views from certain angles and positions."
The new version is on the internet. Let me know if you notice any problems
or have any questions 
Larry

Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 05:47:40 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jean Sept 
Subject: My difficulties on Compass... first, Songjiadong = declination problem ?

Hello,

I am a french caver and I try to make some cave data usable by Compass to transmitt it to some compass users.
�I tried to have a look to http://www.fountainware.com/compass/groupmessages.htm but the link do not work (maybe some "local" problem my side).

Now, I succeeded in changing my data in .dat� files that really look like the ones provided by compass.
Even compass seemes to trust it... BUT... each survey file I transfer seemes to have a different problem.

Here is Songjiadong.
The .dat file is in attachment, and the comparison with original plan view too.

It seemes that there is a different declination value.
The declination in the original softare (Limelight) is 3.06, it is at the right place in the .dat file, it is not present in the heading in Compass... but to explais the problem by declinaison, this should be about 20� !

...

Any idea about what's wrong ?

Hello,I am a french caver and I try to make some cave data usable by Compass to transmitt it to some compass users. I tried to have a look to http://www.fountainware.com/compass/groupmessages.htm but the link do not work (maybe some "local" problem my side).Now, I succeeded in changing my data in .dat  files that really look like the ones provided by compass.Even compass seemes to trust it... BUT... each survey file I transfer seemes to have a different problem.Here is Songjiadong.The .dat file is in attachment, and the comparison with original plan view too.It seemes that there is a different
 declination value.The declination in the original softare (Limelight) is  3.06, it is at the right place in the .dat file, it is not present in the heading in Compass... but to explais the problem by declinaison, this should be about 20� !...Any idea about what's wrong ?

Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 06:13:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jean Sept 
Subject: Other example, Wanhuayan

Sorry, first a small mistake in my first example, the declination is taken by compass (in the heading), but the result...

On the Wanhuayan example, the bearing unit is the problem. It is originally grad. It is given in grad in Compass but after a strange conversion. But the drawing is not grade, it is degree...

So, I am lost.

I would like Compass to use the .dat as it is without changing the data...

Sorry, first a small mistake in my first example, the declination is taken by compass (in the heading), but the result...On the Wanhuayan example, the bearing unit is the problem. It is originally grad. It is given in grad in Compass but after a strange conversion. But the drawing is not grade, it is degree...So, I am lost.I would like Compass to use the .dat as it is without changing the data...

Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 09:42:25 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jean Sept 
Subject: Re: [compass-users] Other example, Wanhuayan

OK, I understood one thing : the .dat file must contain only decimal feet and decimal degrees...

I will come back later with more questions ... thanks...

OK, I understood one thing : the .dat file must contain only decimal feet and decimal degrees...I will come back later with more questions ... thanks...

Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 13:37:34 -0600
From: "Larry Fish" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] Other example, Wanhuayan

Hi Jean,

First, the link to the archived messages that I sent out in the email is
wrong. I restructured the Compass web site recently and the web address of
the archived group messages has changed. I guess I didn't think to update
the message I send out to new members of the group. Here is the correct
address:

http://www.fountainware.com/compass/Users/groupmessages.htm

Second, the Compass data files (.DAT) are not really meant to be manipulated
directly by the user. Although they are in a format that can be edited with
a text editor, it usually best to allow the Compass Editor and other tools
to manipulate them. Because they are meant to be manipulated by a computer,
they use a rigid format that is not necessarily meant to be "User-Friendly."

This means that the Compass data files have all the measurements in a fixed
format that doesn't change even when the cave data is a different format.
This is different from some other cave survey formats that keep the data in
the same format as the original survey data. In Compass, the Survey Editor
is responsible for converting and presenting the data in the original
measurement units that were used to survey the cave.

There are advantages and disadvantage to this approach. The advantage is
that the survey software has a simple task in reading the data, which makes
it less prone to bugs and makes the data more robust and less susceptible to
corruption. The down side is that you may have problems converting data from
other survey formats directly to the Compass .DAT format.

Compass has some tools that can help with this process. But if you are
trying to manually convert your data directly to the Compass data format,
you must convert the data to DEGREES and FEET before you read it into
Compass. Compass won't automatically do that for you. You also must insert
flags in the data that show what units were used in the original data so the
Editor will know how to present the data. Here is a detailed description of
the Compass data format:

http://www.fountainware.com/compass/HTML_Help/Compass_Editor/surveyfileforma
t.htm

There are some tools that may help you with data conversion process and make
things a lot easier.

1. SEF. I looked up "Limelight" on the internet and found that it is part of
Martin Heller's Toporobot cave survey software. Toporobot has been around
for a long time and I believe it supports the "SEF" file format, which is a
format designed for exchanging cave data between different programs. If it
does, Compass supports SEF import and will correctly convert the data,
including the units to the Compass format. SEF import and export can be
found in the "Project Manager" under the "Tools" menu item.

http://www.fountainware.com/compass/HTML_Help/Project_Manager/importexport.h
tm

2. EDITOR TOOLS. There are several tools in the Editor that may help you
with your export problem. One option allows you to change data that was
entered in one units but was actually in another. This would solve your
problem where you have survey data that was originally in Grads but since
you are putting it directly in a Compass data file, Compass thinks it is
degrees. In other words, the tool would convert the data from Grads to
Degrees so it is compatible with the Compass format:

http://www.fountainware.com/compass/HTML_Help/Compass_Editor/repair.htm

Once you have converted the data to Degrees and Feet, you will then want
Compass to display and edit the data in the original format which might be
Meters and Grads. Another Editor tool allows you set the display settings
for large blocks of data.

http://www.fountainware.com/compass/HTML_Help/Compass_Editor/blocksurveys.ht
m

There is also "Rosetta Stal," which a program that is designed to convert
cave data between different format. I don't see Toporobot on the list of
supported formats, but it still might be helpful to you in case Toporobot
will export some other data format. Here is a link to the web page:

http://www.resurgentsoftware.com/rosettastal.htm

Let me know if you have any other questions

Larry

  _____  

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Jean Sept
Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2012 10:42 AM
Subject: Re: [compass-users] Other example, Wanhuayan

OK, I understood one thing : the .dat file must contain only decimal feet
and decimal degrees...

I will come back later with more questions ... thanks...

v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}

Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 17:09:03 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jean Sept 
Subject: Re: [compass-users] Other example, Wanhuayan

Hi Larry, thank you for your answer.

Unfortunatly, Toporobot do not export to SEF format. I guess this didn't exist yet when Martin created it.

If you have a link to a page describing the SEF format, this could help.
I tried to export to SEF from compass, following the instruction in the HELP. 

But I could not edit the result.

I must succeed soon because I am working with a trial version of Excel 2011 for MAC. My only programation knowledge was very old "Basic" and Excel Macro. Know I use VBA. But I am not far from the result...

Bests.

%�

________________________________
 From: Larry Fish 
Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2012 3:37 AM
Subject: RE: [compass-users] Other example, Wanhuayan

A� 
Hi Jean,
A�
First, the link to the archived messages
that I sent out in the email is wrong. I restructured the Compass web site
recently and the web address of the archived group messages has changed. I
guess I didn't think to update the message I send out to new members of the
group. Here is the correct address:
A�
http://www.fountainware.com/compass/Users/groupmessages.htm
A�
Second, the Compass data files (.DAT) are
not really meant to be manipulated directly by the user. Although they are in a
format that can be edited with a text editor, it usually best to allow the
Compass Editor and other tools to manipulate them. Because they are meant to be
manipulated by a computer, they use a rigid format that is not necessarily
meant to be "User-Friendly."
A�
This means that the Compass data files
have all the measurements in a fixed format that doesn't change even when the
cave data is a different format. This is different from some other cave survey
formats that keep the data in the same format as the original survey data. In
Compass, the Survey Editor is responsible for converting and presenting the
data in the original measurement units that were used to survey the cave.
A�
There are advantages and disadvantage to
this approach. The advantage is that the survey software has a simple task in
reading the data, which makes it less prone to bugs and makes the data more
robust and less susceptible to corruption. The down side is that you may have
problems converting data from other survey formats directly to the Compass .DAT
format.
A�
Compass has some tools that can help with
this process. But if you are trying to manually convert your data directly to
the Compass data format, you must convert the data to DEGREES and FEET before
you read it into Compass. Compass won't automatically do that for you. You also
must insert flags in the data that show what units were used in the original
data so the Editor will know how to present the data. Here is a detailed
description of the Compass data format:
A�
http://www.fountainware.com/compass/HTML_Help/Compass_Editor/surveyfileformat.htm
A�
There are some tools that may help you
with data conversion process and make things a lot easier.
A�
1. SEF. I looked up "Limelight"
on the internet and found that it is part of Martin Heller's Toporobot cave
survey software. Toporobot has been around for a long time and I believe it
supports the "SEF" file format, which is a format designed for
exchanging cave data between different programs. If it does, Compass supports
SEF import and will correctly convert the data, including the units to the
Compass format. SEF import and export can be found in the "Project
Manager" under the "Tools" menu item.
A�
http://www.fountainware.com/compass/HTML_Help/Project_Manager/importexport.htm
A�
2. EDITOR TOOLS. There are several tools
in the Editor that may help you with your export problem. One option allows you
to change data that was entered in one units but was actually in another. This
would solve your problem where you have survey data that was originally in
Grads but since you are putting it directly in a Compass data file, Compass
thinks it is degrees. In other words, the tool would convert the data from
Grads to Degrees so it is compatible with the Compass format:
A�
http://www.fountainware.com/compass/HTML_Help/Compass_Editor/repair.htm
A�
Once you have converted the data to
Degrees and Feet, you will then want Compass to display and edit the data in
the original format which might be Meters and Grads. Another Editor tool allows
you set the display settings for large blocks of data.
A�
http://www.fountainware.com/compass/HTML_Help/Compass_Editor/blocksurveys.htm
A�
There is also "Rosetta Stal,"
which a program that is designed to convert cave data between different format.
I don't see Toporobot on the list of supported formats, but it still might be
helpful to you in case Toporobot will export some other data format. Here is a
link to the web page:
A�
http://www.resurgentsoftware.com/rosettastal.htm
A�
Let me know if you have any other
questions
A�
Larry
A�

________________________________
 
From:[email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Jean Sept
Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2012
10:42 AM
Subject: Re: [compass-users] Other
example, Wanhuayan
A�
A� 
OK, I understood one thing : the .dat file must contain only decimal
feet and decimal degrees...

I will come back later with more questions ... thanks...
A�

Hi Larry, thank you for your answer.Unfortunatly, Toporobot do not export to SEF format. I guess this didn't exist yet when Martin created it.If you have a link to a page describing the SEF format, this could help.I tried to export to SEF from compass, following the instruction in the HELP. But I could not edit the result.I must succeed soon because I am working with a trial version of Excel 2011 for MAC. My only programation knowledge was very old "Basic" and Excel Macro. Know I use VBA. But I am not far from the result...Bests.Jean        From: Larry Fish <[email protected]> To: [email protected]  Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2012 3:37 AM Subject: RE: [compass-users] Other example, Wanhuayan   

 

Hi Jean, 

  
First, the link to the archived messages
that I sent out in the email is wrong. I restructured the Compass web site
recently and the web address of the archived group messages has changed. I
guess I didn't think to update the message I send out to new members of the
group. Here is the correct address: 

  
http://www.fountainware.com/compass/Users/groupmessages.htm 

  
Second, the Compass data files (.DAT) are
not really meant to be manipulated directly by the user. Although they are in a
format that can be edited with a text editor, it usually best to allow the
Compass Editor and other tools to manipulate them. Because they are meant to be
manipulated by a computer, they use a rigid format that is not necessarily
meant to be "User-Friendly." 

  
This means that the Compass data files
have all the measurements in a fixed format that doesn't change even when the
cave data is a different format. This is different from some other cave survey
formats that keep the data in the same format as the original survey data. In
Compass, the Survey Editor is responsible for converting and presenting the
data in the original measurement units that were used to survey the cave. 

  
There are advantages and disadvantage to
this approach. The advantage is that the survey software has a simple task in
reading the data, which makes it less prone to bugs and makes the data more
robust and less susceptible to corruption. The down side is that you may have
problems converting data from other survey formats directly to the Compass .DAT
format. 

  
Compass has some tools that can help with
this process. But if you are trying to manually convert your data directly to
the Compass data format, you must convert the data to DEGREES and FEET before
you read it into Compass. Compass won't automatically do that for you. You also
must insert flags in the data that show what units were used in the original
data so the Editor will know how to present the data. Here is a detailed
description of the Compass data format: 

  
http://www.fountainware.com/compass/HTML_Help/Compass_Editor/surveyfileformat.htm
  
There are some tools that may help you
with data conversion process and make things a lot easier. 

  
1. SEF. I looked up "Limelight"
on the internet and found that it is part of Martin Heller's Toporobot cave
survey software. Toporobot has been around for a long time and I believe it
supports the "SEF" file format, which is a format designed for
exchanging cave data between different programs. If it does, Compass supports
SEF import and will correctly convert the data, including the units to the
Compass format. SEF import and export can be found in the "Project
Manager" under the "Tools" menu item. 

  
http://www.fountainware.com/compass/HTML_Help/Project_Manager/importexport.htm 

  
2. EDITOR TOOLS. There are several tools
in the Editor that may help you with your export problem. One option allows you
to change data that was entered in one units but was actually in another. This
would solve your problem where you have survey data that was originally in
Grads but since you are putting it directly in a Compass data file, Compass
thinks it is degrees. In other words, the tool would convert the data from
Grads to Degrees so it is compatible with the Compass format:
  
http://www.fountainware.com/compass/HTML_Help/Compass_Editor/repair.htm 

  
Once you have converted the data to
Degrees and Feet, you will then want Compass to display and edit the data in
the original format which might be Meters and Grads. Another Editor tool allows
you set the display settings for large blocks of data.
  
http://www.fountainware.com/compass/HTML_Help/Compass_Editor/blocksurveys.htm 

  
There is also "Rosetta Stal,"
which a program that is designed to convert cave data between different format.
I don't see Toporobot on the list of supported formats, but it still might be
helpful to you in case Toporobot will export some other data format. Here is a
link to the web page: 

  
http://www.resurgentsoftware.com/rosettastal.htm 

  
Let me know if you have any other
questions 

  
Larry 

  
From:
[email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Jean Sept
Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2012
10:42 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [compass-users] Other
example, Wanhuayan 

   

   

OK, I understood one thing : the .dat file must contain only decimal
feet and decimal degrees...

I will come back later with more questions ... thanks... 

   

Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 08:58:08 +0200
From: Sluka Martin 
Subject: Re: [compass-users] Other example, Wanhuayan

Something as this?

http://www.scavalon.be/avalonuk/software/convert.htm

Compass DAT - Avalon TXT
Toporobot TAB - Avalon TXT
Visual Topo TRO - Avalon TXT
Avalon TXT - Compass DAT
Compass DAT - Onstation CDI (Old stuff, I know, but still fun to play with)

m.

On 15.8.2012, at 2:09, Jean Sept wrote:
 
 Hi Larry, thank you for your answer.
 
 Unfortunatly, Toporobot do not export to SEF format. I guess this didn't exist yet when Martin created it.
 
 If you have a link to a page describing the SEF format, this could help.
 I tried to export to SEF from compass, following the instruction in the HELP. 
 But I could not edit the result.
 
 I must succeed soon because I am working with a trial version of Excel 2011 for MAC. My only programation knowledge was very old "Basic" and Excel Macro. Know I use VBA. But I am not far from the result...
 
 Bests.
 
 Jean
 
 From: Larry Fish 
 To: [email protected] 
 Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2012 3:37 AM
 Subject: RE: [compass-users] Other example, Wanhuayan
 
 Hi Jean,
  
 First, the link to the archived messages that I sent out in the email is wrong. I restructured the Compass web site recently and the web address of the archived group messages has changed. I guess I didn't think to update the message I send out to new members of the group. Here is the correct address:
  
 http://www.fountainware.com/compass/Users/groupmessages.htm
  
 Second, the Compass data files (.DAT) are not really meant to be manipulated directly by the user. Although they are in a format that can be edited with a text editor, it usually best to allow the Compass Editor and other tools to manipulate them. Because they are meant to be manipulated by a computer, they use a rigid format that is not necessarily meant to be "User-Friendly."
  
 This means that the Compass data files have all the measurements in a fixed format that doesn't change even when the cave data is a different format. This is different from some other cave survey formats that keep the data in the same format as the original survey data. In Compass, the Survey Editor is responsible for converting and presenting the data in the original measurement units that were used to survey the cave.
  
 There are advantages and disadvantage to this approach. The advantage is that the survey software has a simple task in reading the data, which makes it less prone to bugs and makes the data more robust and less susceptible to corruption. The down side is that you may have problems converting data from other survey formats directly to the Compass .DAT format.
  
 Compass has some tools that can help with this process. But if you are trying to manually convert your data directly to the Compass data format, you must convert the data to DEGREES and FEET before you read it into Compass. Compass won't automatically do that for you. You also must insert flags in the data that show what units were used in the original data so the Editor will know how to present the data. Here is a detailed description of the Compass data format:
  
 http://www.fountainware.com/compass/HTML_Help/Compass_Editor/surveyfileformat.htm
  
 There are some tools that may help you with data conversion process and make things a lot easier.
  
 1. SEF. I looked up "Limelight" on the internet and found that it is part of Martin Heller's Toporobot cave survey software. Toporobot has been around for a long time and I believe it supports the "SEF" file format, which is a format designed for exchanging cave data between different programs. If it does, Compass supports SEF import and will correctly convert the data, including the units to the Compass format. SEF import and export can be found in the "Project Manager" under the "Tools" menu item.
  
 http://www.fountainware.com/compass/HTML_Help/Project_Manager/importexport.htm
  
 2. EDITOR TOOLS. There are several tools in the Editor that may help you with your export problem. One option allows you to change data that was entered in one units but was actually in another. This would solve your problem where you have survey data that was originally in Grads but since you are putting it directly in a Compass data file, Compass thinks it is degrees. In other words, the tool would convert the data from Grads to Degrees so it is compatible with the Compass format:
  
 http://www.fountainware.com/compass/HTML_Help/Compass_Editor/repair.htm
  
 Once you have converted the data to Degrees and Feet, you will then want Compass to display and edit the data in the original format which might be Meters and Grads. Another Editor tool allows you set the display settings for large blocks of data.
  
 http://www.fountainware.com/compass/HTML_Help/Compass_Editor/blocksurveys.htm
  
 There is also "Rosetta Stal," which a program that is designed to convert cave data between different format. I don't see Toporobot on the list of supported formats, but it still might be helpful to you in case Toporobot will export some other data format. Here is a link to the web page:
  
 http://www.resurgentsoftware.com/rosettastal.htm
  
 Let me know if you have any other questions
  
 Larry
  
 From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Jean Sept
 Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2012 10:42 AM
 To: [email protected]
 Subject: Re: [compass-users] Other example, Wanhuayan
  
 OK, I understood one thing : the .dat file must contain only decimal feet and decimal degrees...
 
 I will come back later with more questions ... thanks...

Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 04:57:29 -0600
From: "Larry Fish" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] Other example, Wanhuayan

Hi Jean,

I couldn't find a link to any information of the SEF format, so I just
posted a text document from 1992 that I think is the only documentation on
the SEF. You'll find the document here:

http://fountainware.com/compass/Documents/SEF.txt

Let me know if you have any questions.

Larry

  _____  

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Jean Sept
Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2012 6:09 PM
Subject: Re: [compass-users] Other example, Wanhuayan

Hi Larry, thank you for your answer.

Unfortunatly, Toporobot do not export to SEF format. I guess this didn't
exist yet when Martin created it.

If you have a link to a page describing the SEF format, this could help.
I tried to export to SEF from compass, following the instruction in the
HELP. 

But I could not edit the result.

I must succeed soon because I am working with a trial version of Excel 2011
for MAC. My only programation knowledge was very old "Basic" and Excel
Macro. Know I use VBA. But I am not far from the result...

Bests.

%�

  _____  

From: Larry Fish 
Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2012 3:37 AM
Subject: RE: [compass-users] Other example, Wanhuayan

Hi Jean,

First, the link to the archived messages that I sent out in the email is
wrong. I restructured the Compass web site recently and the web address of
the archived group messages has changed. I guess I didn't think to update
the message I send out to new members of the group. Here is the correct
address:

http://www.fountainware.com/compass/Users/groupmessages.htm

Second, the Compass data files (.DAT) are not really meant to be manipulated
directly by the user. Although they are in a format that can be edited with
a text editor, it usually best to allow the Compass Editor and other tools
to manipulate them. Because they are meant to be manipulated by a computer,
they use a rigid format that is not necessarily meant to be "User-Friendly."

This means that the Compass data files have all the measurements in a fixed
format that doesn't change even when the cave data is a different format.
This is different from some other cave survey formats that keep the data in
the same format as the original survey data. In Compass, the Survey Editor
is responsible for converting and presenting the data in the original
measurement units that were used to survey the cave.

There are advantages and disadvantage to this approach. The advantage is
that the survey software has a simple task in reading the data, which makes
it less prone to bugs and makes the data more robust and less susceptible to
corruption. The down side is that you may have problems converting data from
other survey formats directly to the Compass .DAT format.

Compass has some tools that can help with this process. But if you are
trying to manually convert your data directly to the Compass data format,
you must convert the data to DEGREES and FEET before you read it into
Compass. Compass won't automatically do that for you. You also must insert
flags in the data that show what units were used in the original data so the
Editor will know how to present the data. Here is a detailed description of
the Compass data format:

http://www.fountainware.com/compass/HTML_Help/Compass_Editor/surveyfileforma
t.htm

There are some tools that may help you with data conversion process and make
things a lot easier.

1. SEF. I looked up "Limelight" on the internet and found that it is part of
Martin Heller's Toporobot cave survey software. Toporobot has been around
for a long time and I believe it supports the "SEF" file format, which is a
format designed for exchanging cave data between different programs. If it
does, Compass supports SEF import and will correctly convert the data,
including the units to the Compass format. SEF import and export can be
found in the "Project Manager" under the "Tools" menu item.

http://www.fountainware.com/compass/HTML_Help/Project_Manager/importexport.h
tm

2. EDITOR TOOLS. There are several tools in the Editor that may help you
with your export problem. One option allows you to change data that was
entered in one units but was actually in another. This would solve your
problem where you have survey data that was originally in Grads but since
you are putting it directly in a Compass data file, Compass thinks it is
degrees. In other words, the tool would convert the data from Grads to
Degrees so it is compatible with the Compass format:

http://www.fountainware.com/compass/HTML_Help/Compass_Editor/repair.htm

Once you have converted the data to Degrees and Feet, you will then want
Compass to display and edit the data in the original format which might be
Meters and Grads. Another Editor tool allows you set the display settings
for large blocks of data.

http://www.fountainware.com/compass/HTML_Help/Compass_Editor/blocksurveys.ht
m

There is also "Rosetta Stal," which a program that is designed to convert
cave data between different format. I don't see Toporobot on the list of
supported formats, but it still might be helpful to you in case Toporobot
will export some other data format. Here is a link to the web page:

http://www.resurgentsoftware.com/rosettastal.htm

Let me know if you have any other questions

Larry

  _____  

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Jean Sept
Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2012 10:42 AM
Subject: Re: [compass-users] Other example, Wanhuayan

OK, I understood one thing : the .dat file must contain only decimal feet
and decimal degrees...

I will come back later with more questions ... thanks...

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w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}

st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }

Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2012 21:01:41 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jean Sept 
Subject: Re: [compass-users] Other example, Wanhuayan

Yes, but more simple.
Only Toporobot to Compass.

Then Compass to Auriga, but this is supposed to be supported by a conduit...

Thank you.

But Avalon seems not to succeed with my data.
After one minute, the software fail ("no answer")

________________________________
 From: Sluka Martin 
Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2012 2:58 PM
Subject: Re: [compass-users] Other example, Wanhuayan

A� 
Something as this?

http://www.scavalon.be/avalonuk/software/convert.htm

Compass DAT - Avalon TXT
Toporobot TAB - Avalon TXT
Visual Topo TRO - Avalon TXT
Avalon TXT - Compass DAT
Compass DAT - Onstation CDI (Old stuff, I know, but still fun to play with)

m.

On 15.8.2012, at 2:09, Jean Sept wrote:
 
 Hi Larry, thank you for your answer.
 
 Unfortunatly, Toporobot do not export to SEF format. I guess this didn't exist yet when Martin created it.
 
 If you have a link to a page describing the SEF format, this could help.
 I tried to export to SEF from compass, following the instruction in the HELP. 
 But I could not edit the result.
 
 I must succeed soon because I am working with a trial version of Excel 2011 for MAC. My only programation knowledge was very old "Basic" and Excel Macro. Know I use VBA. But I am not far from the result...
 
 Bests.
 
 Jean
 
 From: Larry Fish 
 To: [email protected] 
 Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2012 3:37 AM
 Subject: RE: [compass-users] Other example, Wanhuayan
 
 Hi Jean,
 
 First, the link to the archived messages that I sent out in the email is wrong. I restructured the Compass web site recently and the web address of the archived group messages has changed. I guess I didn't think to update the message I send out to new members of the group. Here is the correct address:
 
 http://www.fountainware.com/compass/Users/groupmessages.htm
 
 Second, the Compass data files (.DAT) are not really meant to be manipulated directly by the user. Although they are in a format that can be edited with a text editor, it usually best to allow the Compass Editor and other tools to manipulate them. Because they are meant to be manipulated by a computer, they use a rigid format that is not necessarily meant to be "User-Friendly."
 
 This means that the Compass data files have all the measurements in a fixed format that doesn't change even when the cave data is a different format. This is different from some other cave survey formats that keep the data in the same format as the original survey data. In Compass, the Survey Editor is responsible for converting and presenting the data in the original measurement units that were used to survey the cave.
 
 There are advantages and disadvantage to this approach. The advantage is that the survey software has a simple task in reading the data, which makes it less prone to bugs and makes the data more robust and less susceptible to corruption. The down side is that you may have problems converting data from other survey formats directly to the Compass .DAT format.
 
 Compass has some tools that can help with this process. But if you are trying to manually convert your data directly to the Compass data format, you must convert the data to DEGREES and FEET before you read it into Compass. Compass won't automatically do that for you. You also must insert flags in the data that show what units were used in the original data so the Editor will know how to present the data. Here is a detailed description of the Compass data format:
 
 http://www.fountainware.com/compass/HTML_Help/Compass_Editor/surveyfileformat.htm
 
 There are some tools that may help you with data conversion process and make things a lot easier.
 
 1. SEF. I looked up "Limelight" on the internet and found that it is part of Martin Heller's Toporobot cave survey software. Toporobot has been around for a long time and I believe it supports the "SEF" file format, which is a format designed for exchanging cave data between different programs. If it does, Compass supports SEF import and will correctly convert the data, including the units to the Compass format. SEF import and export can be found in the "Project Manager" under the "Tools" menu item.
 
 http://www.fountainware.com/compass/HTML_Help/Project_Manager/importexport.htm
 
 2. EDITOR TOOLS. There are several tools in the Editor that may help you with your export problem. One option allows you to change data that was entered in one units but was actually in another. This would solve your problem where you have survey data that was originally in Grads but since you are putting it directly in a Compass data file, Compass thinks it is degrees. In other words, the tool would convert the data from Grads to Degrees so it is compatible with the Compass format:
 
 http://www.fountainware.com/compass/HTML_Help/Compass_Editor/repair.htm
 
 Once you have converted the data to Degrees and Feet, you will then want Compass to display and edit the data in the original format which might be Meters and Grads. Another Editor tool allows you set the display settings for large blocks of data.
 
 http://www.fountainware.com/compass/HTML_Help/Compass_Editor/blocksurveys.htm
 
 There is also "Rosetta Stal," which a program that is designed to convert cave data between different format. I don't see Toporobot on the list of supported formats, but it still might be helpful to you in case Toporobot will export some other data format. Here is a link to the web page:
 
 http://www.resurgentsoftware.com/rosettastal.htm
 
 Let me know if you have any other questions
 
 Larry
 
 From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Jean Sept
 Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2012 10:42 AM
 To: [email protected]
 Subject: Re: [compass-users] Other example, Wanhuayan
 
 OK, I understood one thing : the .dat file must contain only decimal feet and decimal degrees...
 
 I will come back later with more questions ... thanks...

Yes, but more simple.Only Toporobot to Compass.Then Compass to Auriga, but this is supposed to be supported by a conduit...Thank you.But Avalon seems not to succeed with my data.After one minute, the software fail ("no answer")      From: Sluka Martin <[email protected]> To: [email protected]  Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2012 2:58 PM Subject: Re: [compass-users] Other example, Wanhuayan   

 
      
      Something as this?

http://www.scavalon.be/avalonuk/software/convert.htm

Compass DAT -> Avalon TXT
Toporobot TAB -> Avalon TXT
Visual Topo TRO -> Avalon TXT
Avalon TXT -> Compass DAT
Compass DAT -> Onstation CDI (Old stuff, I know, but still fun to play with)

m.

On 15.8.2012, at 2:09, Jean Sept wrote:

> 
> 
> Hi Larry, thank you for your answer.
> 
> Unfortunatly, Toporobot do not export to SEF format. I guess this didn't exist yet when Martin created it.
> 
> If you have a link to a page describing the SEF format, this could help.
> I tried to export to SEF from compass, following the instruction in the HELP. 
> But I could not edit the result.
> 
> I must succeed soon because I am working with a trial version of Excel 2011 for MAC. My only programation knowledge was very old "Basic" and Excel Macro. Know I use VBA. But I am not far from the result...
> 
> Bests.
> 
> Jean
> 
> 
> From: Larry Fish <[email protected]>
> To: [email protected] 
> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2012 3:37 AM
> Subject: RE: [compass-users] Other example, Wanhuayan
> 
> Hi Jean,
>  
> First, the link to the archived messages that I sent out in the email is wrong. I restructured the Compass web site recently and the web address of the archived group messages has changed. I guess I didn't think to update the message I send out to new members of the group. Here is the correct address:
>  
> http://www.fountainware.com/compass/Users/groupmessages.htm
>  
> Second, the Compass data files (.DAT) are not really meant to be manipulated directly by the user. Although they are in a format that can be edited with a text editor, it usually best to allow the Compass Editor and other tools to manipulate them. Because they are meant to be manipulated by a computer, they use a rigid format that is not necessarily meant to be "User-Friendly."
>  
> This means that the Compass data files have all the measurements in a fixed format that doesn't change even when the cave data is a different format. This is different from some other cave survey formats that keep the data in the same format as the original survey data. In Compass, the Survey Editor is responsible for converting and presenting the data in the original measurement units that were used to survey the cave.
>  
> There are advantages and disadvantage to this approach. The advantage is that the survey software has a simple task in reading the data, which makes it less prone to bugs and makes the data more robust and less susceptible to corruption. The down side is that you may have problems converting data from other survey formats directly to the Compass .DAT format.
>  
> Compass has some tools that can help with this process. But if you are trying to manually convert your data directly to the Compass data format, you must convert the data to DEGREES and FEET before you read it into Compass. Compass won't automatically do that for you. You also must insert flags in the data that show what units were used in the original data so the Editor will know how to present the data. Here is a detailed description of the Compass data format:
>  
> http://www.fountainware.com/compass/HTML_Help/Compass_Editor/surveyfileformat.htm
>  
> There are some tools that may help you with data conversion process and make things a lot easier.
>  
> 1. SEF. I looked up "Limelight" on the internet and found that it is part of Martin Heller's Toporobot cave survey software. Toporobot has been around for a long time and I believe it supports the "SEF" file format, which is a format designed for exchanging cave data between different programs. If it does, Compass supports SEF import and will correctly convert the data, including the units to the Compass format. SEF import and export can be found in the "Project Manager" under the "Tools" menu item.
>  
> http://www.fountainware.com/compass/HTML_Help/Project_Manager/importexport.htm
>  
> 2. EDITOR TOOLS. There are several tools in the Editor that may help you with your export problem. One option allows you to change data that was entered in one units but was actually in another. This would solve your problem where you have survey data that was originally in Grads but since you are putting it directly in a Compass data file, Compass thinks it is degrees. In other words, the tool would convert the data from Grads to Degrees so it is compatible with the Compass format:
>  
> http://www.fountainware.com/compass/HTML_Help/Compass_Editor/repair.htm
>  
> Once you have converted the data to Degrees and Feet, you will then want Compass to display and edit the data in the original format which might be Meters and Grads. Another Editor tool allows you set the display settings for large blocks of data.
>  
> http://www.fountainware.com/compass/HTML_Help/Compass_Editor/blocksurveys.htm
>  
> There is also "Rosetta Stal," which a program that is designed to convert cave data between different format. I don't see Toporobot on the list of supported formats, but it still might be helpful to you in case Toporobot will export some other data format. Here is a link to the web page:
>  
> http://www.resurgentsoftware.com/rosettastal.htm
>  
> Let me know if you have any other questions
>  
> Larry
>  
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Jean Sept
> Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2012 10:42 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [compass-users] Other example, Wanhuayan
>  
>  
> OK, I understood one thing : the .dat file must contain only decimal feet and decimal degrees...
> 
> I will come back later with more questions ... thanks...
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2012 08:36:46 +0200
From: Sluka Martin 
Subject: Re: [compass-users] Other example, Wanhuayan

On 17.8.2012, at 6:01, Jean Sept wrote:

 Only Toporobot to Compass.

Sorry.

There are rummors than on Eurospeleo in September in Switzerland Martin Heller will introduce new version of Toporobot.

http://www.speleodiversity.ch/indexE.html

Martin

Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 02:12:41 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jean Sept 
Subject: To convert again... Auriga

Hi,

step by step, bug after bug, my VBA macro seems now to work at about 90 % ...
Anyway, it is not possible to reach 100 % because some features are different and can not be converted.
I don't know if I will go ahead to generate also the .MAK file to solve the question of the fixed point...

But now, I want to make another step and convert the compass data to Auriga (to use it on a palm).
For this, the only way is to go through the conduit developped by Christian Chenier. But I have two kind of results :
the first one is to get a file with nothing inside
the second is to get a huge number of orphelines

Do somebody here have some experience about it ?

Recent Activity: 	* New Members 1   
Visit Your Group 
 
Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest �?� Unsubscribe �?� Terms of Use
. 

Hi,step by step, bug after bug, my VBA macro seems now to work at about 90 % ...Anyway, it is not possible to reach 100 % because some features are different and can not be converted.I don't know if I will go ahead to generate also the .MAK file to solve the question of the fixed point...But now, I want to make another step and convert the compass data to Auriga (to use it on a palm).For this, the only way is to go through the conduit developped by Christian Chenier. But I have two kind of results :the first one is to get a file with nothing insidethe second is to get a huge number of orphelinesDo somebody here have some experience about it ?
      Recent Activity:
            
      New Members
      1
  
    Visit Your Group
  
  Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest �?� Unsubscribe �?� Terms of Use

  .

Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 04:22:33 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jean Sept 
Subject: Convertion Compass to Auriga, be carefull if you are using Grades as unit for azimut

I worked some more hours on my problem and found out one thing that can be usefull to know for those who would like to use some compass data under Auriga.

If you have some survey using Grades as unit for the compass, the .DAT file report it with a "R" as first string for the format. 

The conduit for Auriga have a small bug (maybe will be repared later) and need a "G" at this position.

After changing this, I could import my surveys in Auriga.

One question : when Auriga export with a "G" (ex: GMMRLURD...), Compass succeed in drawing a cave map... I guess the azimut are then in degrees, right ?

________________________________
 From: Jean Sept 
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2012 5:12 PM
Subject: To convert again... Auriga

Hi,

step by step, bug after bug, my VBA macro seems now to work at about 90 % ...
Anyway, it is not possible to reach 100 % because some features are different and can not be converted.
I don't know if I will go ahead to generate also the .MAK file to solve the question of the fixed point...

But now, I want to make another step and convert the compass data to Auriga (to use it on a palm).
For this, the only way is to go through the conduit developped by Christian Chenier. But I have two kind of results :
the first one is to get a file with nothing inside
the second is to get a huge number of orphelines

Do somebody here have some experience about it ?

Recent Activity: 	* New Members 1   
Visit Your Group 
 
Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest �?� Unsubscribe �?� Terms of Use
. 

I worked some more hours on my problem and found out one thing that can be usefull to know for those who would like to use some compass data under Auriga.If you have some survey using Grades as unit for the compass, the .DAT file report it with a "R" as first string for the format. The conduit for Auriga
 have a small bug (maybe will be repared later) and need a "G" at this position.After changing this, I could import my surveys in Auriga.One question :
 when Auriga export with a "G" (ex: GMMRLURD...), Compass succeed in drawing a cave map... I guess the azimut are then in degrees, right ?        From: Jean Sept <[email protected]> To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>  Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2012 5:12 PM Subject: To convert again... Auriga   Hi,step by step, bug after bug, my VBA macro seems now to work at about 90 % ...Anyway, it is not possible to reach 100 % because some features are different and can not be converted.I don't know if I will go ahead to generate also the .MAK file to solve the question of the fixed point...But now, I want to make another step and convert the compass data to Auriga (to use it on a palm).For this, the only way is to go through the conduit developped by Christian Chenier. But I have two kind of results :the first one is to get a file with nothing insidethe second is to get a huge number of orphelinesDo somebody here have some experience about it ?
      Recent Activity:
            
      New Members
      1
  
    Visit Your Group
  
  Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest �?� Unsubscribe �?� Terms of Use

  .

Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 09:32:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: Tom 
Subject: Re: DEM reader question

Hi,
as far as I can tell reading the online help and experimenting, I cannot enter a specific value in the DEM Reader to locate a cave entrance? I have to "eyeball" the location with a mouse on the DEM Viewer interface.

Please tell me I missed something.

Tom

Hi,as far as I can tell reading the online help and experimenting, I cannot enter a specific value in the DEM Reader to locate a cave entrance? I have to "eyeball" the location with a mouse on the DEM Viewer interface.Please tell me I missed something.Tom

Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 13:20:10 -0600
From: "Larry Fish" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] To convert again... Auriga

Hi Jean,

I thought maybe Christian or Luc would see your post and have an answer.
Since they haven't responded and since I don't have any direct experience
with Auriga, you probably should contact them directly. There is contact
information here:

  http://www.speleo.qc.ca/auriga/

There is an Auriga users group on the web and the both Christian and Luc's
email address are also available at the very bottom of the page.

Larry Fish

  _____  

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Jean Sept
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2012 3:13 AM
Subject: [compass-users] To convert again... Auriga

Hi,

step by step, bug after bug, my VBA macro seems now to work at about 90 %
...
Anyway, it is not possible to reach 100 % because some features are
different and can not be converted.
I don't know if I will go ahead to generate also the .MAK file to solve the
question of the fixed point...

But now, I want to make another step and convert the compass data to Auriga
(to use it on a palm).
For this, the only way is to go through the conduit developped by Christian
Chenier. But I have two kind of results :
the first one is to get a file with nothing inside
the second is to get a huge number of orphelines

Do somebody here have some experience about it ?

Recent Activity: 

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Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 15:26:38 -0400
From: Christian Chenier 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] To convert again... Auriga

I just confirmed today that there is a bug with 
the conduit related to the usage of Grad units 
for azimuth or slope when converting to/from 
Compass. A new conduit will be out shortly to address this issue.

Chris

At 03:20 PM 22/08/2012, Larry Fish wrote:

Hi Jean,

I thought maybe Christian or Luc would see your 
post and have an answer. Since they haven't 
responded and since I don't have any direct 
experience with Auriga, you probably should 
contact them directly. There is contact information here:

http://www.speleo.qc.ca/auriga/

There is an Auriga users group on the web and 
the both Christian and Luc's email address are 
also available at the very bottom of the page.

Larry Fish

----------
From: [email protected] 
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Jean Sept
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2012 3:13 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [compass-users] To convert again... Auriga

Hi,

step by step, bug after bug, my VBA macro seems now to work at about 90 % ...
Anyway, it is not possible to reach 100 % 
because some features are different and can not be converted.
I don't know if I will go ahead to generate also 
the .MAK file to solve the question of the fixed point...

But now, I want to make another step and convert 
the compass data to Auriga (to use it on a palm).
For this, the only way is to go through the 
conduit developped by Christian Chenier. But I have two kind of results :
the first one is to get a file with nothing inside
the second is to get a huge number of orphelines

Do somebody here have some experience about it ?

Recent Activity:
    * 
 New 
 Members 1

Visit 
Your Group

Switch to: 
Text-Only, 
Daily 
Digest   
Unsubscribe 
  Terms of Use

.

Christian Ch�nier
Gatineau (Qu�bec), Canada
(819) 772-8824 

I just confirmed today that there is a bug with the conduit related to
the usage of Grad units for azimuth or slope when converting to/from
Compass. A new conduit will be out shortly to address this
issue.
Chris
At 03:20 PM 22/08/2012, Larry Fish wrote:
  
Hi Jean,

 

I thought maybe Christian or Luc would see
your post and have an answer. Since they haven't responded and since I
don't have any direct experience with Auriga, you probably should contact
them directly. There is contact information here:

 

http://www.speleo.qc.ca/auriga/

 

There is an Auriga users group on the web
and the both Christian and Luc's email address are also available at the
very bottom of the page.

 

Larry Fish

 

From: [email protected]
[
mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Jean
Sept
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2012 3:13 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [compass-users] To convert again... Auriga

 

  

Hi,
step by step, bug after bug, my VBA macro seems now to work at about 90 %
...
Anyway, it is not possible to reach 100 % because some features are
different and can not be converted.
I don't know if I will go ahead to generate also the .MAK file to solve
the question of the fixed point...
But now, I want to make another step and convert the compass data to
Auriga (to use it on a palm).
For this, the only way is to go through the conduit developped by
Christian Chenier. But I have two kind of results :
the first one is to get a file with nothing inside
the second is to get a huge number of orphelines
Do somebody here have some experience about it ?

Recent
Activity: 

New Members
1

Visit Your Group 

Switch to:

Text-Only,

Daily Digest  

Unsubscribe   Terms of
Use

.

 

Christian Ch�nier
Gatineau (Qu�bec), Canada
(819) 772-8824

Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 05:06:38 -0600
From: "Larry Fish" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] Re: DEM reader question

Hi Tom,

As result of your question, I've just upgraded the DEM Reader so you can
directly enter the coordinates for the linking station. There is now a
button labeled "Set Link Loc." Pressing this button will take you to a
"Geographic Calculator," that will allow you to enter coordinates in either
UTM or Long/Lat. The new version is up on the Compass web site. I didn't
have a lot of time to test it, so let me know if you see any problems.

Larry

  _____  

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Tom
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 10:33 AM
Subject: [compass-users] Re: DEM reader question

Hi,
as far as I can tell reading the online help and experimenting, I cannot
enter a specific value in the DEM Reader to locate a cave entrance? I have
to "eyeball" the location with a mouse on the DEM Viewer interface.

Please tell me I missed something.

Tom

v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}

Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 14:11:13 -0700 (PDT)
From: Tom 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] Re: DEM reader question

thanks!, it'll take a few days, I have a full time job. :-)

From: Larry Fish 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] Re: DEM reader question
Date: Thursday, August 23, 2012, 4:06 AM

Hi Tom,
As result of your question, I�?Tve just upgraded the DEM Reader so you can directly enter the coordinates for the linking station. There is now a button labeled �?oSet Link Loc.�?? Pressing this button will take you to a �?oGeographic Calculator,�?? that will allow you to enter coordinates in either UTM or Long/Lat. The new version is up on the Compass web site. I didn�?Tt have a lot of time to test it, so let me know if you see any problems.
Larry
A�

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Tom
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 10:33 AM
Subject: [compass-users] Re: DEM reader question
A�
A� 

Hi,
as far as I can tell reading the online help and experimenting, I cannot enter a specific value in the DEM Reader to locate a cave entrance? I have to "eyeball" the location with a mouse on the DEM Viewer interface.

Please tell me I missed something.

Tom

thanks!, it'll take a few days, I have a full time job. :-)--- On Thu, 8/23/12, Larry Fish <[email protected]> wrote:
From: Larry Fish <[email protected]>Subject: RE: [compass-users] Re: DEM reader questionTo: [email protected]: Thursday, August 23, 2012, 4:06 AM

Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 20:11:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jean Sept 
Subject: Re: [compass-users] To convert again... Auriga

Hi Larry,

I was already in contact with auriga's group, thanks.

I have one question about the managment of magnetic decliation by compass because I want to be sure I did not misunderstand.

For example, 

- ifA� I enter +2A� as declination value, Compass will substract 2A�to the azimuth 

(Az 100 will be calculated as 98 to give a map referenced on geographic north).A�

- ifA� I enter -2A� as declination value, Compass will add 2A� to the azimuth 

(Az 100 will be calculated as 102 to give a map referenced on geographic north).

Right ?

________________________________
 From: Larry Fish 
Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2012 3:20 AM
Subject: RE: [compass-users] To convert again... Auriga

A� 
Hi Jean,
A�
I thought maybe Christian or Luc would see
your post and have an answer. Since they haven�?Tt responded and since I don�?Tt
have any direct experience with Auriga, you probably should contact them
directly. There is contact information here:
A�
http://www.speleo.qc.ca/auriga/
A�
There is an Auriga users group on the web
and the both Christian and Luc�?Ts email address are also available at the very
bottom of the page.
A�
Larry Fish
A�

________________________________
 
From:[email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Jean Sept
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2012
3:13 AM
Subject: [compass-users] To
convert again... Auriga
A�
A� 
Hi,

step by step, bug after bug, my VBA macro seems now to work at about 90 % ...
Anyway, it is not possible to reach 100 % because some features are different
and can not be converted.
I don't know if I will go ahead to generate also the .MAK file to solve the
question of the fixed point...

But now, I want to make another step and convert the compass data to Auriga (to
use it on a palm).
For this, the only way is to go through the conduit developped by Christian
Chenier. But I have two kind of results :
the first one is to get a file with nothing inside
the second is to get a huge number of orphelines

Do somebody here have some experience about it ?
Recent Activity:
	* New Members1
Visit Your Group 
Switch
.
A�

Hi Larry,I was already in contact with auriga's group, thanks.I have one question about the managment of magnetic decliation by
 compass because I want to be sure I did not misunderstand.For example, - if  I enter +2A� as declination value, Compass will substract 2A� to the azimuth (Az 100 will be calculated as 98 to give a map referenced on geographic
 north). - if  I enter -2A� as declination value, Compass will add 2A� to the azimuth (Az 100 will be calculated as 102 to give a map referenced on geographic north).Right ?        From: Larry Fish <[email protected]> To: [email protected]  Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2012 3:20 AM Subject: RE: [compass-users] To convert again... Auriga   

 

Hi Jean, 

  
I thought maybe Christian or Luc would see
your post and have an answer. Since they haven�?Tt responded and since I don�?Tt
have any direct experience with Auriga, you probably should contact them
directly. There is contact information here: 

  
http://www.speleo.qc.ca/auriga/ 

  
There is an Auriga users group on the web
and the both Christian and Luc�?Ts email address are also available at the very
bottom of the page. 

  
Larry Fish 

  
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Jean Sept
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2012
3:13 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [compass-users] To
convert again... Auriga 

   

   

Hi,

step by step, bug after bug, my VBA macro seems now to work at about 90 % ...
Anyway, it is not possible to reach 100 % because some features are different
and can not be converted.
I don't know if I will go ahead to generate also the .MAK file to solve the
question of the fixed point...

But now, I want to make another step and convert the compass data to Auriga (to
use it on a palm).
For this, the only way is to go through the conduit developped by Christian
Chenier. But I have two kind of results :
the first one is to get a file with nothing inside
the second is to get a huge number of orphelines

Do somebody here have some experience about it ? 

Recent Activity:  

 New Members 1  

Visit Your Group  

Switch
oups.com?subject=Change%20Delivery%20Format:%20Traditional" target="_blank" href="mailto:[email protected]?subject=Change%20Delivery%20Format:%20Traditional"Text-Only, Daily Digest �?� Unsubscribe �?� Terms of
 Use 

. 

   

Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 06:59:12 -0000
From: "paul_debie" 
Subject: Re: To convert again... Auriga

If I'm correct, Compass ADDS the declination to the measured azimuth.

So if you enter -2 as the declination, then the azimuth that Compass will use to make its plot will be 100 + (-2) = 98.

But there are a few things that you must carefully check (and IMO it is a weak point of Compass). 
In Project Manager, General Options: check "Use entered declinations".
In Compile Options: uncheck "Use UTM convergence" (unless you deliberately want Compass to rotate your plot so it will be aligned to the UTM grid North.
Then don't forget "Save user settings" !!! or next time you open Compass your changes are gone  (a simple dialog box saying "you have changed your settings, would you like to save them? YES/NO" would help to prevent this common error).

For Larry: the "weakness" is this (I already explained you in the past, but nevermind): these settings should really be saved on a Project level (in the MAK) or even data level (in the DAT) of the cave, and not an a "General Compass level"

Because in one cave you maybe want to use automatic declinations, and in another you maybe want manual declinations. The same for the convergence. 

I'm exchanging a lot of Compass surveys with other cavers. But often we run into problems because we have got different settings. It is a continuing source of errors. 

The bottom line is this: when I make a survey and I sent it to another Compass user, he should be able to simply open it and see exactly the same plot as I do. But it is not so, unfortunately....

Paul 

 Hi Larry,
 
 I was already in contact with auriga's group, thanks.
 
 I have one question about the managment of magnetic decliation by compass because I want to be sure I did not misunderstand.
 
 For example, 
 
 - ifA� I enter +2A� as declination value, Compass will substract 2A�to the azimuth 
 
 (Az 100 will be calculated as 98 to give a map referenced on geographic north).A�
 
 - ifA� I enter -2A� as declination value, Compass will add 2A� to the azimuth 
 
 (Az 100 will be calculated as 102 to give a map referenced on geographic north).
 
 Right ?
 
 ________________________________
  From: Larry Fish 
 To: [email protected] 
 Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2012 3:20 AM
 Subject: RE: [compass-users] To convert again... Auriga
 
 A� 
 Hi Jean,
 A�
 I thought maybe Christian or Luc would see
 your post and have an answer. Since they haven�?Tt responded and since I don�?Tt
 have any direct experience with Auriga, you probably should contact them
 directly. There is contact information here:
 A�
 http://www.speleo.qc.ca/auriga/
 A�
 There is an Auriga users group on the web
 and the both Christian and Luc�?Ts email address are also available at the very
 bottom of the page.
 A�
 Larry Fish
 A�
 
 ________________________________
  
 From:[email protected]
 [mailto:[email protected]] On
 Behalf Of Jean Sept
 Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2012
 3:13 AM
 To: [email protected]
 Subject: [compass-users] To
 convert again... Auriga
 A�
 A� 
 Hi,
 
 step by step, bug after bug, my VBA macro seems now to work at about 90 % ...
 Anyway, it is not possible to reach 100 % because some features are different
 and can not be converted.
 I don't know if I will go ahead to generate also the .MAK file to solve the
 question of the fixed point...
 
 But now, I want to make another step and convert the compass data to Auriga (to
 use it on a palm).
 For this, the only way is to go through the conduit developped by Christian
 Chenier. But I have two kind of results :
 the first one is to get a file with nothing inside
 the second is to get a huge number of orphelines
 
 Do somebody here have some experience about it ?
 Recent Activity:
 	* New Members1
 Visit Your Group 
 Switch
 to: Text-Only, Daily Digest �?� Unsubscribe �?� Terms of Use
 .
 A�

Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 03:25:03 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jean Sept 
Subject: Re: [compass-users] Re: To convert again... Auriga

OK,
I made a mistake.

Toporobot substracts the magnetic declination from measured azimuth to give a geographic north oriented survey.
(you measure azimuth with a declination, so you substract its value to your measure to get geographic north)

But Compass and Auriga add it.
(the declination is then the value you need to add to the measure azimuth to get the geographic north)

Two different ways to consider the declination. It doesn't really matter when you know it and work with both of the softwares ...

________________________________
 From: paul_debie 
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 2:59 PM
Subject: [compass-users] Re: To convert again... Auriga

A� 
If I'm correct, Compass ADDS the declination to the measured azimuth.

So if you enter -2 as the declination, then the azimuth that Compass will use to make its plot will be 100 + (-2) = 98.

But there are a few things that you must carefully check (and IMO it is a weak point of Compass). 
In Project Manager, General Options: check "Use entered declinations".
In Compile Options: uncheck "Use UTM convergence" (unless you deliberately want Compass to rotate your plot so it will be aligned to the UTM grid North.
Then don't forget "Save user settings" !!! or next time you open Compass your changes are gone  (a simple dialog box saying "you have changed your settings, would you like to save them? YES/NO" would help to prevent this common error).

For Larry: the "weakness" is this (I already explained you in the past, but nevermind): these settings should really be saved on a Project level (in the MAK) or even data level (in the DAT) of the cave, and not an a "General Compass level"

Because in one cave you maybe want to use automatic declinations, and in another you maybe want manual declinations. The same for the convergence. 

I'm exchanging a lot of Compass surveys with other cavers. But often we run into problems because we have got different settings. It is a continuing source of errors. 

The bottom line is this: when I make a survey and I sent it to another Compass user, he should be able to simply open it and see exactly the same plot as I do. But it is not so, unfortunately....

Paul 

 Hi Larry,
 
 I was already in contact with auriga's group, thanks.
 
 I have one question about the managment of magnetic decliation by compass because I want to be sure I did not misunderstand.
 
 For example, 
 
 - ifA,A� I enter +2A,A� as declination value, Compass will substract 2A,A�to the azimuth 
 
 (Az 100 will be calculated as 98 to give a map referenced on geographic north).A,A�
 
 - ifA,A� I enter -2A,A� as declination value, Compass will add 2A,A� to the azimuth 
 
 (Az 100 will be calculated as 102 to give a map referenced on geographic north).
 
 Right ?
 
 ________________________________
  From: Larry Fish 
 To: [email protected] 
 Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2012 3:20 AM
 Subject: RE: [compass-users] To convert again... Auriga
 
 A,A� 
 Hi Jean,
 A,A�
 I thought maybe Christian or Luc would see
 your post and have an answer. Since they havenA��,��,�t responded and since I donA��,��,�t
 have any direct experience with Auriga, you probably should contact them
 directly. There is contact information here:
 A,A�
 http://www.speleo.qc.ca/auriga/
 A,A�
 There is an Auriga users group on the web
 and the both Christian and LucA��,��,�s email address are also available at the very
 bottom of the page.
 A,A�
 Larry Fish
 A,A�
 
 ________________________________
 
 From:[email protected]
 [mailto:[email protected]] On
 Behalf Of Jean Sept
 Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2012
 3:13 AM
 To: [email protected]
 Subject: [compass-users] To
 convert again... Auriga
 A,A�
 A,A� 
 Hi,
 
 step by step, bug after bug, my VBA macro seems now to work at about 90 % ...
 Anyway, it is not possible to reach 100 % because some features are different
 and can not be converted.
 I don't know if I will go ahead to generate also the .MAK file to solve the
 question of the fixed point...
 
 But now, I want to make another step and convert the compass data to Auriga (to
 use it on a palm).
 For this, the only way is to go through the conduit developped by Christian
 Chenier. But I have two kind of results :
 the first one is to get a file with nothing inside
 the second is to get a huge number of orphelines
 
 Do somebody here have some experience about it ?
 Recent Activity:
 	* New Members1
 Visit Your Group 
 Switch
 to: Text-Only, Daily Digest A��,�A� Unsubscribe A��,�A� Terms of Use
 .
 A,A�

OK,I made a mistake.Toporobot substracts the magnetic declination from measured azimuth to give a geographic north oriented survey.(you measure azimuth with a declination, so you substract its value to your measure to get geographic north)But Compass and Auriga add it.(the declination is then the value you need to add to the measure azimuth to get the geographic north)Two different ways to consider the declination. It doesn't really matter when you know it and work with both of the softwares ...        From: paul_debie <[email protected]> To: [email protected]  Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 2:59 PM Subject:
 [compass-users] Re: To convert again... Auriga   

 
      
      If I'm correct, Compass ADDS the declination to the measured azimuth.

So if you enter -2 as the declination, then the azimuth that Compass will use to make its plot will be 100 + (-2) = 98.

But there are a few things that you must carefully check (and IMO it is a weak point of Compass). 
In Project Manager, General Options: check "Use entered declinations".
In Compile Options: uncheck "Use UTM convergence" (unless you deliberately want Compass to rotate your plot so it will be aligned to the UTM grid North.
Then don't forget "Save user settings" !!! or next time you open Compass your changes are gone  (a simple dialog box saying "you have changed your settings, would you like to save them? YES/NO" would help to prevent this common error).

For Larry: the "weakness" is this (I already explained you in the past, but nevermind): these settings should really be saved on a Project level (in the MAK) or even data level (in the DAT) of the cave, and not an a "General Compass level"

Because in one cave you maybe want to use automatic declinations, and in another you maybe want manual declinations. The same for the convergence. 

I'm exchanging a lot of Compass surveys with other cavers. But often we run into problems because we have got different settings. It is a continuing source of errors. 

The bottom line is this: when I make a survey and I sent it to another Compass user, he should be able to simply open it and see exactly the same plot as I do. But it is not so, unfortunately....

Paul 

m" target="_blank" href="mailto:compass-users%40yahoogroups.com"[email protected], Jean Sept <jean.sept@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Larry,
> 
> I was already in contact with auriga's group, thanks.
> 
> I have one question about the managment of magnetic decliation by compass because I want to be sure I did not misunderstand.
> 
> For example, 
> 
> - ifA,  I enter +2A,A� as declination value, Compass will substract 2A,A�to the azimuth 
> 
> (Az 100 will be calculated as 98 to give a map referenced on geographic north).A, 
> 
> - ifA,  I enter -2A,A� as declination value, Compass will add 2A,A� to the azimuth 
> 
> (Az 100 will be calculated as 102 to give a map referenced on geographic north).
> 
> Right ?
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________
>  From: Larry Fish <lfish@...>
> To: [email protected] 
> Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2012 3:20 AM
> Subject: RE: [compass-users] To convert again... Auriga
>  
> 
> A,  
> Hi Jean,
> A, 
> I thought maybe Christian or Luc would see
> your post and have an answer. Since they havenA��,��,�t responded and since I donA��,��,�t
> have any direct experience with Auriga, you probably should contact them
> directly. There is contact information here:
> A, 
> http://www.speleo.qc.ca/auriga/
> A, 
> There is an Auriga users group on the web
> and the both Christian and LucA��,��,�s email address are also available at the very
> bottom of the page.
> A, 
> Larry Fish
> A, 
> 
> ________________________________
>  
> From:[email protected]
> [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Jean Sept
> Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2012
> 3:13 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: [compass-users] To
> convert again... Auriga
> A, 
> A,  
> Hi,
> 
> step by step, bug after bug, my VBA macro seems now to work at about 90 % ...
> Anyway, it is not possible to reach 100 % because some features are different
> and can not be converted.
> I don't know if I will go ahead to generate also the .MAK file to solve the
> question of the fixed point...
> 
> But now, I want to make another step and convert the compass data to Auriga (to
> use it on a palm).
> For this, the only way is to go through the conduit developped by Christian
> Chenier. But I have two kind of results :
> the first one is to get a file with nothing inside
> the second is to get a huge number of orphelines
> 
> Do somebody here have some experience about it ?
> Recent Activity:
> 	* New Members1
> Visit Your Group 
> Switch
> to: Text-Only, Daily Digest A��,�A� Unsubscribe A��,�A� Terms of Use
> .
> A, 
>

Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 11:05:58 -0000
From: "paul_debie" 
Subject: Re: To convert again... Auriga

Oh yes it does matter, a lot. Compass, Auriga and most other software do it the right way. 
The magnetic declination is the angle between geographic and magnetic north. It is positive when your compass needle deviates to the East, and negative if it deviates to the West of true north (which depends on the location on earth, or the year). 
So there is no question about it: you need to ADD it to your bearing.

The way Toporobot does it, is wrong, period. It is a very old program and the reasoning behind the bizarre way of handling declination, is probably because 20 years ago declination was, in Europe, negative and adding a negative number is the same as substracting it, so...
Meanwhile magnetic declination has become positive for many locations in Europe. Which means that those who are still using Toporobot, have to enter a negative declination now. Quite confusing...

FYI: when you convert Toporobot files to Compass, don't forget that in Toporobot, the magnetic declination is always in GRADES, while in Compass it is in DECIMAL DEGREES. So it is not just a matter of inverting the sign. 

=��

 OK,
 I made a mistake.
 
 Toporobot substracts the magnetic declination from measured azimuth to give a geographic north oriented survey.
 (you measure azimuth with a declination, so you substract its value to your measure to get geographic north)
 
 But Compass and Auriga add it.
 (the declination is then the value you need to add to the measure azimuth to get the geographic north)
 
 Two different ways to consider the declination. It doesn't really matter when you know it and work with both of the softwares ...
 
 ________________________________
  From: paul_debie 
 To: [email protected] 
 Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 2:59 PM
 Subject: [compass-users] Re: To convert again... Auriga
 
 A� 
 If I'm correct, Compass ADDS the declination to the measured azimuth.
 
 So if you enter -2 as the declination, then the azimuth that Compass will use to make its plot will be 100 + (-2) = 98.
 
 But there are a few things that you must carefully check (and IMO it is a weak point of Compass). 
 In Project Manager, General Options: check "Use entered declinations".
 In Compile Options: uncheck "Use UTM convergence" (unless you deliberately want Compass to rotate your plot so it will be aligned to the UTM grid North.
 Then don't forget "Save user settings" !!! or next time you open Compass your changes are gone  (a simple dialog box saying "you have changed your settings, would you like to save them? YES/NO" would help to prevent this common error).
 
 For Larry: the "weakness" is this (I already explained you in the past, but nevermind): these settings should really be saved on a Project level (in the MAK) or even data level (in the DAT) of the cave, and not an a "General Compass level"
 
 Because in one cave you maybe want to use automatic declinations, and in another you maybe want manual declinations. The same for the convergence. 
 
 I'm exchanging a lot of Compass surveys with other cavers. But often we run into problems because we have got different settings. It is a continuing source of errors. 
 
 The bottom line is this: when I make a survey and I sent it to another Compass user, he should be able to simply open it and see exactly the same plot as I do. But it is not so, unfortunately....
 
 Paul 
 
 --- In [email protected], Jean Sept  wrote:
 
  Hi Larry,
  
  I was already in contact with auriga's group, thanks.
  
  I have one question about the managment of magnetic decliation by compass because I want to be sure I did not misunderstand.
  
  For example, 
  
  - ifA,A� I enter +2A,A� as declination value, Compass will substract 2A,A�to the azimuth 
  
  (Az 100 will be calculated as 98 to give a map referenced on geographic north).A,A�
  
  - ifA,A� I enter -2A,A� as declination value, Compass will add 2A,A� to the azimuth 
  
  (Az 100 will be calculated as 102 to give a map referenced on geographic north).
  
  Right ?
  
  ________________________________
   From: Larry Fish 
  To: [email protected] 
  Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2012 3:20 AM
  Subject: RE: [compass-users] To convert again... Auriga
  
  A,A� 
  Hi Jean,
  A,A�
  I thought maybe Christian or Luc would see
  your post and have an answer. Since they havenA��,��,�t responded and since I donA��,��,�t
  have any direct experience with Auriga, you probably should contact them
  directly. There is contact information here:
  A,A�
  http://www.speleo.qc.ca/auriga/
  A,A�
  There is an Auriga users group on the web
  and the both Christian and LucA��,��,�s email address are also available at the very
  bottom of the page.
  A,A�
  Larry Fish
  A,A�
  
  ________________________________
  
  From:[email protected]
  [mailto:[email protected]] On
  Behalf Of Jean Sept
  Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2012
  3:13 AM
  To: [email protected]
  Subject: [compass-users] To
  convert again... Auriga
  A,A�
  A,A� 
  Hi,
  
  step by step, bug after bug, my VBA macro seems now to work at about 90 % ...
  Anyway, it is not possible to reach 100 % because some features are different
  and can not be converted.
  I don't know if I will go ahead to generate also the .MAK file to solve the
  question of the fixed point...
  
  But now, I want to make another step and convert the compass data to Auriga (to
  use it on a palm).
  For this, the only way is to go through the conduit developped by Christian
  Chenier. But I have two kind of results :
  the first one is to get a file with nothing inside
  the second is to get a huge number of orphelines
  
  Do somebody here have some experience about it ?
  Recent Activity:
  	* New Members1
  Visit Your Group 
  Switch
  to: Text-Only, Daily Digest A��,�A� Unsubscribe A��,�A� Terms of Use
  .
  A,A�

Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2012 03:09:11 -0000
From: "virginia_underground" 
Subject: Sketch Editor - "Morph" makes sketch vanish

I've finished a few cave maps using Compass/Sketch Editor/Inkscape while following the online tutorial, but this latest cave is giving me trouble. Here's what happens:

Everything works fine until (in Sketch Editor - Morph Tool) I load the plot file. Sometimes I get an error message ("List Index Out of Bounds (1)", sometimes I don't.

Even if I get the error message, things seem to still be working OK... until I try to do the Preliminary Morphing. Following the tutorial, I line up the line plot with the sketch, move the handles to the correct survey stations, and click the "Morph" button...

And then my sketch disappears.

This happens every time. I click "Morph" and the sketch I'm trying to morph vanishes from the screen.

Has anyone ever experienced this? Any idea what the problem might be?

THANKS!

Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2012 14:57:36 -0600
From: "Larry Fish" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] Sketch Editor - "Morph" makes sketch vanish

I've seen this bug before and I thought I had fixed it. You might want to
make sure you have the latest version of the SVG Exporter. The latest
version is dated July 18, 2012. You can down load it here:

http://www.fountainware.com/compass/downloads/download.htm

If that doesn't fix the problem, you can send me a copy of the files so I
can duplicate the bug. If you are worried about confidentiality, I
frequently work with all kinds of sensitive files and always keep everything
private unless someone specifically tells me that it is in the public
domain. You can send them directly to my private email address which should
appear in the "From" section of this email after phrase "On Behalf of."

Let me know if you have any other questions.

Larry Fish

  _____  

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of virginia_underground
Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2012 9:09 PM
Subject: [compass-users] Sketch Editor - "Morph" makes sketch vanish

I've finished a few cave maps using Compass/Sketch Editor/Inkscape while
following the online tutorial, but this latest cave is giving me trouble.
Here's what happens:

Everything works fine until (in Sketch Editor - Morph Tool) I load the plot
file. Sometimes I get an error message ("List Index Out of Bounds (1)",
sometimes I don't.

Even if I get the error message, things seem to still be working OK... until
I try to do the Preliminary Morphing. Following the tutorial, I line up the
line plot with the sketch, move the handles to the correct survey stations,
and click the "Morph" button...

And then my sketch disappears.

This happens every time. I click "Morph" and the sketch I'm trying to morph
vanishes from the screen.

Has anyone ever experienced this? Any idea what the problem might be?

THANKS!

v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}

Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2012 01:56:03 -0600
From: "Larry Fish" 
Subject: RE: [compass-users] Sketch Editor - "Morph" makes sketch vanish

For other people who are using the Sketch Editor, you may want to download
the latest version. The problem mentioned in the post included below has
been fixed. I've also added a couple new features that make it easier to
copy images between different parts of the program.

Larry Fish

  _____  

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of virginia_underground
Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2012 9:09 PM
Subject: [compass-users] Sketch Editor - "Morph" makes sketch vanish

I've finished a few cave maps using Compass/Sketch Editor/Inkscape while
following the online tutorial, but this latest cave is giving me trouble.
Here's what happens:

Everything works fine until (in Sketch Editor - Morph Tool) I load the plot
file. Sometimes I get an error message ("List Index Out of Bounds (1)",
sometimes I don't.

Even if I get the error message, things seem to still be working OK... until
I try to do the Preliminary Morphing. Following the tutorial, I line up the
line plot with the sketch, move the handles to the correct survey stations,
and click the "Morph" button...

And then my sketch disappears.

This happens every time. I click "Morph" and the sketch I'm trying to morph
vanishes from the screen.

Has anyone ever experienced this? Any idea what the problem might be?

THANKS!

v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}