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Messsage #: 537
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Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2017 00:37:20 -0600
Subject: Re: [compass-users] Getting started with a new DAT file
From: David Gerboth 

Larry,
While I was documenting my procedure, I discovered a duplicate DAT file 
of the same name I am trying to create. The odd thing is that I can't 
pull that file up on a system search but when I am given a default new 
DAT name as "NEW1" there is a list from wcomp.32 of existing files and 
that is where I am finding the duplicate file. I don't know how that got 
generated. When I delete it and start the process again with "Create new 
survey file" in Project Manager, the file I am trying to create now 
saves when I "save current file". If I get stopped again, I now know 
where to look for duplicate files.
- Dave
On 12/30/2016 11:18 PM, 'Larry' [email protected] [compass-users] 
wrote:

 Hi Dave,

 Thanks for your email. I tried to duplicate the problem you described, 
 but I couldn't do it. I also haven't had any other complaints about a 
 similar problem, although sometimes bugs can exist for years before 
 some one trips over them.

 Normally, if the file already exists, Compass will offer the option of 
 overwriting the existing file. You also should be able to use the 
 "Save As" option to save it under another name. That way, you wouldn't 
 lose any data.

 From your description, I'm not sure if the problem is occurring in the 
 Project Manager or the Editor. It sounds like you are generating the 
 new file in the project manager and then entering data in the Editor. 
 That would imply the problem is occurring in the Editor.

 Could you give me the exact sequence of events that causes the 
 problem? Don't leave out any details. You may be doing something that 
 I haven't anticipated and that one step is causing the problem. For 
 example, a few years back a Compass user kept complaining about a 
 problem that I couldn't duplicate. It took five or six email exchanges 
 before he told me that he was saving the data to floppy disk. Once I 
 tried it on a floppy, I was able to duplicate and fix the problem.

 Larry

 ------------------------------------------------------------------------

 *From:*[email protected] 
 [mailto:[email protected]]
 *Sent:* Friday, December 30, 2016 8:05 PM
 *To:* Compass-Users
 *Subject:* [compass-users] Getting started with a new DAT file

 Over the years, I been having problems getting started with a new DAT
 file. What is the proper procedure to do this? What I have been doing is
 Create a new survey file. It asks for the first survey and I provide the
 first survey name. It then asks for the new name for the DAT file. I
 provide that. I then can get started adding shots to the survey. When I
 try to save current file, I get an error message stating the file name
 already exists and will not save any of my data. I have been going
 around in circles trying to save the file and in most cases lose all of
 the data I typed in. Finally for some unknown reason to me, it finally
 saves after several tries and I am fine after that adding data and more
 surveys to the file. What am I doing wrong?

 - Dave
  
    Larry,
      While I was documenting my procedure, I discovered a duplicate DAT
      file of the same name I am trying to create. The odd thing is that
      I can't pull that file up on a system search but when I am given a
      default new DAT name as "NEW1" there is a list from wcomp.32 of
      existing files and that is where I am finding the duplicate file.
      I don't know how that got generated. When I delete it and start
      the process again with "Create new survey file" in Project
      Manager, the file I am trying to create now saves when I "save
      current file". If I get stopped again, I now know where to look
      for duplicate files.
      - Dave
      On 12/30/2016 11:18 PM, 'Larry' [email protected]
      [compass-users] wrote:
    
     ˇ
            
              Hi Dave,
              Thanks
                    for your email. I tried to duplicate the problem you
                    described, but I couldn't do it. I also haven't had
                    any other
                    complaints about a similar problem, although
                    sometimes bugs can exist for years
                    before some one trips over them. 
              Normally,
                    if the file already exists, Compass will offer the
                    option of overwriting the existing file. You also
                    should be able to use the "Save
                    As" option to save it under another name. That way,
                    you wouldn't
                    lose any data.
              From
                    your description, I'm not sure if the problem is
                    occurring
                    in the Project Manager or the Editor. It sounds like
                    you are generating the new
                    file in the project manager and then entering data
                    in the Editor. That would
                    imply the problem is occurring in the Editor. 
              Could
                    you give me the exact sequence of events that causes
                    the problem? Don't leave out any details. You may be
                    doing something that
                    I haven't anticipated and that one step is causing
                    the problem. For
                    example, a few years back a Compass user kept
                    complaining about a problem that
                    I couldn't duplicate. It took five or six email
                    exchanges before he told
                    me that he was saving the data to floppy disk. Once
                    I tried it on a floppy, I
                    was able to duplicate and fix the problem.
              Larry
              ˇ
                    
                From: [email protected]
                      [mailto:[email protected]]
                      
                      Sent:
                      Friday, December 30, 2016
                      8:05 PM
                      To:
                      Compass-Users
                      Subject:
                      [compass-users] Getting
                      started with a new DAT file
              
              ˇ
              ˇ 
                  
                    Over the years, I
                          been having problems getting started
                          with a new DAT 
                          file. What is the proper procedure to do this?
                          What I have been doing is 
                          Create a new survey file. It asks for the
                          first survey and I provide the 
                          first survey name. It then asks for the new
                          name for the DAT file. I 
                          provide that. I then can get started adding
                          shots to the survey. When I 
                          try to save current file, I get an error
                          message stating the file name 
                          already exists and will not save any of my
                          data. I have been going 
                          around in circles trying to save the file and
                          in most cases lose all of 
                          the data I typed in. Finally for some unknown
                          reason to me, it finally 
                          saves after several tries and I am fine after
                          that adding data and more 
                          surveys to the file. What am I doing wrong?
                          
                          - Dave


Messsage #: 538
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Date: Tue, 2 May 2017 19:20:31 +0200
Subject: Sketch Editor Problem
From: Roger Schuster 

Hi Larry,

recently I (re-) discovered a problem with Sketch Editor. The following
steps cause the error:

- Start up Sketch Editor.
- Press "Load" and open a scanned sketch as PNG file.
- Press "Morph" (without doing any scaling or editing).
- Select "File | Open Plot File" and select a brand new PLT file.
- Move and scale the plot file to match the sketch as close as possible.
- Check "Show Handles".
- Move the handles to match the survey stations on the sketch.
- Press "Morph".

Now the progress bar starts running and as soon as it reaches 100% the
sketch disappears. Only the PLT survey remains on screen. 

In the past I also tried other surveys and scanned sketches and
sometimes it works and sometimes I get the result described above. If
the error appears I always can reproduce it. I run Sktech Edit
1.2015.11.30.13 on Windows 10 with locale Germany.

Here are the example files:

Regards,

Roger


Messsage #: 539
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Date: Tue, 2 May 2017 18:38:05 -0600
Subject: RE: [compass-users] Sketch Editor Problem
From: "Larry" 

Hi Roger,

Thanks for pointing out the problem. I've found it and fixed it.

In order for the morphing operation to work properly, there cannot be any
duplicate positions. If two of the handles are in the same position, the
morphing equations go to infinity. To prevent this problem, the program is
supposed to remove all duplicates. In the case of your file, there were two
duplicates right at the end of the survey. The program would remove one of
the duplicates but not the other. All I needed to do was make simple change
to fix the problem.

 The new version is on the internet. Check it out and let me know if you
find any other problems.

Larry

  _____  

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] 
Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2017 11:21 AM
Subject: [compass-users] Sketch Editor Problem

Hi Larry,

recently I (re-) discovered a problem with Sketch Editor. The following
steps cause the error:

- Start up Sketch Editor.
- Press "Load" and open a scanned sketch as PNG file.
- Press "Morph" (without doing any scaling or editing).
- Select "File | Open Plot File" and select a brand new PLT file.
- Move and scale the plot file to match the sketch as close as possible.
- Check "Show Handles".
- Move the handles to match the survey stations on the sketch.
- Press "Morph".

Now the progress bar starts running and as soon as it reaches 100% the
sketch disappears. Only the PLT survey remains on screen. 

In the past I also tried other surveys and scanned sketches and
sometimes it works and sometimes I get the result described above. If
the error appears I always can reproduce it. I run Sktech Edit
1.2015.11.30.13 on Windows 10 with locale Germany.

Here are the example files:

Regards,

Roger

v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}

st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }


Messsage #: 540
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Date: Wed, 3 May 2017 09:00:34 +0200
Subject: Re: [compass-users] Sketch Editor Problem
From: Roger Schuster 

Hi Larry,

thank you very much for this fast response. The new version works like
a charm!

Best regards,

Roger

Am Tue, 2 May 2017 18:38:05 -0600
schrieb "'Larry' [email protected] [compass-users]"
:

 Hi Roger,
 
 Thanks for pointing out the problem. I've found it and fixed it.
 
 In order for the morphing operation to work properly, there cannot be
 any duplicate positions. If two of the handles are in the same
 position, the morphing equations go to infinity. To prevent this
 problem, the program is supposed to remove all duplicates. In the
 case of your file, there were two duplicates right at the end of the
 survey. The program would remove one of the duplicates but not the
 other. All I needed to do was make simple change to fix the problem.
 
  The new version is on the internet. Check it out and let me know if
 you find any other problems.
 
 Larry


Messsage #: 541
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Date: Wed, 3 May 2017 11:59:47 +0200
Subject: Ordering of data colums with backsights
From: Roger Schuster 

Hi Larry,

another question: Do you think it is possible to make the ordering of
columns for backsight data in "Cave Editor" user adjustable? At the
moment backclino always follows clino and backcompass follows compass.
I guess most cavers who are using backsights first record the
instrument readings from "From" to "To" station, then moving to the
"To" station and doing both backsight readings there. In my opinion it
makes sense to rearrange the columns in the editor or make them user
adjustable. For myself I would like to use the order
From-To-Tape-Inc1-Comp1-Inc2-Comp2-LRUD.

Best regards,

Roger


Messsage #: 542
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Date: Fri, 5 May 2017 13:24:04 -0600
Subject: RE: [compass-users] Ordering of data colums with backsights
From: "Larry" 

Hi Roger,

I've modified the Editor so you can now control the order in which the back
sight measurements are displayed. In other words, the Tape, Azm, Azm2, Inc,
and Inc2 measurements can be displayed in any order.

This required quite a bit of modification to the Editor and the file format.
I've tested it in all the obvious ways it might fail, but it is always a bit
hard to test everything. Let me know how it works and if you have any
problems with the display or saving the format information to files.

Thanks again for your suggestion; it will probably make other Compass-users
happy.

Larry  

  _____  

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] 
Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2017 4:00 AM
Subject: [compass-users] Ordering of data colums with backsights

Hi Larry,

another question: Do you think it is possible to make the ordering of
columns for backsight data in "Cave Editor" user adjustable? At the
moment backclino always follows clino and backcompass follows compass.
I guess most cavers who are using backsights first record the
instrument readings from "From" to "To" station, then moving to the
"To" station and doing both backsight readings there. In my opinion it
makes sense to rearrange the columns in the editor or make them user
adjustable. For myself I would like to use the order
From-To-Tape-Inc1-Comp1-Inc2-Comp2-LRUD.

Best regards,

Roger

v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}

st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }


Messsage #: 543
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Date: Fri, 5 May 2017 13:24:45 -0600
Subject: RE: [compass-users] Ordering of data colums with backsights
From: "Larry" 

PS: The new version is up on the internet.

Larry

  _____  

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] 
Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2017 4:00 AM
Subject: [compass-users] Ordering of data colums with backsights

Hi Larry,

another question: Do you think it is possible to make the ordering of
columns for backsight data in "Cave Editor" user adjustable? At the
moment backclino always follows clino and backcompass follows compass.
I guess most cavers who are using backsights first record the
instrument readings from "From" to "To" station, then moving to the
"To" station and doing both backsight readings there. In my opinion it
makes sense to rearrange the columns in the editor or make them user
adjustable. For myself I would like to use the order
From-To-Tape-Inc1-Comp1-Inc2-Comp2-LRUD.

Best regards,

Roger

v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}

st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }


Messsage #: 544
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Date: Fri, 5 May 2017 13:00:10 -0700
Subject: Re: [compass-users] Ordering of data colums with backsights
From: "David A. Riggs" 

On Fri, May 5, 2017 at 12:24 PM, 'Larry' [email protected]
[compass-users]  wrote:

 This required quite a bit of modification to the Editor and the file
 format.

Hi Larry,

As always, thanks for continuing to improve Compass!

Can you describe how this modification changes the .DAT file format? I
assume it was a change to the FORMAT field, but don't see an obvious update
to the documentation online.

http://fountainware.com/compass/Documents/FileFormats/SurveyDataFormat.htm

- DR

David A. Riggs 

On Fri, May 5, 2017 at 12:24 PM, 'Larry' [email protected] [compass-users] <[email protected]> wrote:This required quite a bit of modification to the Editor and
the file format. Hi Larry,As always, thanks for continuing to improve Compass!Can you describe how this modification changes the .DAT file format? I assume it was a change to the FORMAT field, but don't see an obvious update to the documentation online.Aˇ Aˇ http://fountainware.com/compass/Documents/FileFormats/SurveyDataFormat.htm- DR-- David A. Riggs <[email protected]>


Messsage #: 545
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Date: Fri, 5 May 2017 20:06:42 -0600
Subject: RE: [compass-users] Ordering of data colums with backsights
From: "Larry" 

Hi David,

I hadn't' gotten around to posting the web pages that document the changes.
I just posted them and the information about the Format String is here in
Section-2, Subsection-G:

http://www.fountainware.com/compass/HTML_Help/Compass_Editor/surveyfileforma
t.htm

When I post new versions of the Compass, the changes are documented first in
the help files.  In this case, the updated information was in the Editor's
help file under the section "Technical Data."

Converting the Help files to HTML is a bit of work and there are a few
manual steps that take some time. I usually wait until I've accumulated a
bunch of changes before I update the online files.

Larry

  _____  

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] 
Sent: Friday, May 05, 2017 2:00 PM
Subject: Re: [compass-users] Ordering of data colums with backsights

On Fri, May 5, 2017 at 12:24 PM, 'Larry' [email protected]
[compass-users]  wrote:

This required quite a bit of modification to the Editor and the file format.

Hi Larry,

As always, thanks for continuing to improve Compass!

Can you describe how this modification changes the .DAT file format? I
assume it was a change to the FORMAT field, but don't see an obvious update
to the documentation online.
 
http://fountainware.com/compass/Documents/FileFormats/SurveyDataFormat.htm

- DR

David A. Riggs 

v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}

st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }


Messsage #: 546
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Date: Sun, 7 May 2017 15:17:56 +0200
Subject: Re: [compass-users] Ordering of data colums with backsights
From: Roger Schuster 

Hi Larry,

I did a first test (changing the ordering of an existing survey) and
it worked as expected. 

Thank you for your great work!

Best regards,

Roger

Am Fri, 5 May 2017 13:24:04 -0600
schrieb "'Larry' [email protected] [compass-users]"
:

 Hi Roger,
 
 I've modified the Editor so you can now control the order in which
 the back sight measurements are displayed. In other words, the Tape,
 Azm, Azm2, Inc, and Inc2 measurements can be displayed in any order.
 
 This required quite a bit of modification to the Editor and the file
 format. I've tested it in all the obvious ways it might fail, but it
 is always a bit hard to test everything. Let me know how it works and
 if you have any problems with the display or saving the format
 information to files.
 
 Thanks again for your suggestion; it will probably make other
 Compass-users happy.
 
 Larry  
 
   _____  
 
 From: [email protected]
 [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2017
 4:00 AM To: Compass-Users
 Subject: [compass-users] Ordering of data colums with backsights
 
 Hi Larry,
 
 another question: Do you think it is possible to make the ordering of
 columns for backsight data in "Cave Editor" user adjustable? At the
 moment backclino always follows clino and backcompass follows compass.
 I guess most cavers who are using backsights first record the
 instrument readings from "From" to "To" station, then moving to the
 "To" station and doing both backsight readings there. In my opinion it
 makes sense to rearrange the columns in the editor or make them user
 adjustable. For myself I would like to use the order
 From-To-Tape-Inc1-Comp1-Inc2-Comp2-LRUD.
 
 Best regards,
 
 Roger


Messsage #: 547
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Date: Fri, 26 May 2017 13:01:12 -0600
Subject: New Version of CaveXO
From: "Larry" 

Hi everyone. I've just posted a new version of CaveXO that has several major
new features. (CaveXO is the program that displays full 3D models of cave
passages.)

Speed Increases. CaveXO is now many times faster than previous versions.
Caves now load and animate much faster

1. Load Speed. For example, here are the load speeds for 124 miles (198 km)
of Lechuguilla Cave:

Old Version: 32 seconds.
New Version:  6 seconds.

That is more than five times improvement.

2. Animation Speed. Here are animation speeds for Lechuguilla:

Old Version: 2 Frames/Sec.
New Version: 16.4 Frames/Sec

Old Version: 1.7 million triangles/sec
New Version: 16.7 million triangles/sec

The increase in display speed makes it much easier to animate large caves
like Lechuguilla. These times are for a somewhat older graphics card, newer
computers and graphics cards should be much faster.

Improved Station Labels/Marks. The old version displayed station labels with
text that was drawn using scaled lines. This meant that if you were zoomed
out, the text was too small to read and if you were zoomed in, the text
could be too big to read. Also, the labels only faced in one direction, so
you couldn't read them from the side and would be backwards if you looked at
them from behind.
 
The new labels are a fixed size, no matter how much you are zoomed in or
zoomed out. Likewise, they always face toward the front, so they can be read
from any angle. 

Finally, in the old version, station marks consisted of a small cube or
tetrahedron, which was very small when you zoomed out and got progressively
larger when you zoomed in. In the new version, station labels stay the same
size whether you are zoomed in or out. They also face the same direction so
they can be seen and read from any angle.

Larry


Messsage #: 548
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Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2017 19:55:53 -0700
Subject: PLT File Format Changes
From: "David A. Riggs" 

On Fri, May 5, 2017 at 7:06 PM, 'Larry' [email protected]
[compass-users]  wrote:

 When I post new versions of the Compass, the changes are documented first
 in the help files.  In this case, the updated information was in the
 EditorÉ?Ts help file under the section É?oTechnical Data.É??

 Converting the Help files to HTML is a bit of work and there are a few
 manual steps that take some time. I usually wait until IÉ?Tve accumulated a
 bunch of changes before I update the online files.

Hi Larry,

Another quick file format comment...

It looks like the .PLT file has recently(?) started including shot flags at
the end of a Move or Draw command, which means there are a variable number
of values on the line depending on whether flags are associated or not.

It also looks like the Draw command now uses a lower-cased 'd' for hidden
shots (shots with the P flag) but uses an upper-cased 'D' for regular shots?

There's also an undocumented 'C' control code in this file, followed by
lots of 'R' feature values.

These aren't mentioned on the documentation page:

    http://fountainware.com/compass/Documents/FileFormats/PlotFileFormat.htm

- DR

David A. Riggs 

On Fri, May 5, 2017 at 7:06 PM, 'Larry' [email protected] [compass-users] <[email protected]> wrote:When I post new versions of the Compass, the changes are
documented first in the help files.Aˇ In this case, the updated information
was in the EditorÉ?Ts help file under the section É?oTechnical Data.É??

Converting the Help files to HTML is a bit of work and there
are a few manual steps that take some time. I usually wait until IÉ?Tve
accumulated a bunch of changes before I update the online files.Hi Larry,Another quick file format comment...It looks like the .PLT file has recently(?) started including shot flags at the end of a Move or Draw command, which means there are a variable number of values on the line depending on whether flags are associated or not.It also looks like the Draw command now uses a lower-cased 'd' for hidden shots (shots with the P flag) but uses an upper-cased 'D' for regular shots?There's also an undocumented 'C' control code in this file, followed by lots of 'R' feature values.These aren't mentioned on the documentation page:Aˇ Aˇ http://fountainware.com/compass/Documents/FileFormats/PlotFileFormat.htm- DR-- David A. Riggs <[email protected]>


Messsage #: 549
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Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2017 01:59:30 -0600
Subject: RE: [compass-users] PLT File Format Changes
From: "Larry" 

Hi David,

Those changes are documented in the help files for the individual program
which are generally accessible from those programs. The help files for the
currently distributed program should have all those changes.

I haven't updated the online versions of those files, so you won't find the
information there. Updating the online version requires a bunch of manual
HTML editing, so I only do that after there is been a major release.

In this case, the new features are in the help file for the Viewer. To get
to the Viewer, run the Project Manager and select the "Run-Run Viewer
Manually" from the menu bar.  From Viewer select the "Help-Index" option
from the menu bar. Once the help file opens, select the "Technical Details"
option then " Plot File Format."

Here are answers to your specific questions:

1. The shot flags are documented as follows:

F. Shot Flags. This command is specified by the letter "F"

followed by up to three uppercase flag characters. The shot

flags are set in the Compass Editor to control how each shot

is handled. The flag characters are defined as follows:

L - Exclude this shot from length calculations.

P - Exclude this shot from plotting.

X - Exclude this shot from all processing.

C - Do not adjust this shot when closing loops.

Since the "X" flag excludes a shot from all processing, any

shot marked with this flag will be missing from the Plot

file. As a result, you will never see this flag in a plot

file.

2. The lower case "d" does indicate a hidden shot. Here is the documentation
for it:

A. Plot Command. Consisting of: Upper case "D" or "M" or a

lower case "d". "D" indicates that the program should draw a

line from the last location to the location specified by the

Cartesian point that follows. Lower case "d" indicates that

the shot was entered into the Editor using "P"

plot-exclusion flag. Programs that display the cave can

selectively display or hide shots that were originally

excluded.

3. The "C" and "R" commands indicate loop information and they are
documented as follows: 

10. C. This command indicates the number of

loops in the cave. If there are no loops, the command should

report zero. The command can be used to differentiate

between caves that have no loops and plot files that were

created before the loop-feature was added.

11. R.

This command contains all the stations for a single loop.

Here is a description of each data item:

A. Count. This is the number of stations in the loop.

B. Common. This is the "Common" station that unites each

side of the loop.

C. From Close. This is the "From" station of the closing

shot in the loop.

D. To Close. This is the "To" station of the closing shot in

the loop.

E. Loop Stations. This a list of each station in the loop

separated by a space.

Larry

  _____  

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] 
Sent: Saturday, June 10, 2017 8:56 PM
Subject: [compass-users] PLT File Format Changes

On Fri, May 5, 2017 at 7:06 PM, 'Larry' [email protected]
[compass-users]  wrote:

When I post new versions of the Compass, the changes are documented first in
the help files.  In this case, the updated information was in the Editor's
help file under the section "Technical Data."

Converting the Help files to HTML is a bit of work and there are a few
manual steps that take some time. I usually wait until I've accumulated a
bunch of changes before I update the online files.

Hi Larry,

Another quick file format comment...

It looks like the .PLT file has recently(?) started including shot flags at
the end of a Move or Draw command, which means there are a variable number
of values on the line depending on whether flags are associated or not.

It also looks like the Draw command now uses a lower-cased 'd' for hidden
shots (shots with the P flag) but uses an upper-cased 'D' for regular shots?

There's also an undocumented 'C' control code in this file, followed by lots
of 'R' feature values.

These aren't mentioned on the documentation page:

    http://fountainware.com/compass/Documents/FileFormats/PlotFileFormat.htm

- DR

David A. Riggs 

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Date: 12 Aug 2017 00:52:04 +0000
Subject: Round Tripping Error
From: [email protected]

Hi Larry
 I am having a strange issue with round tripping. 
 I have been trying to roundtrip a cave that unexpected looped after 3500 feet, so I have a 15 foot error I am trying to update my map to. I originally drew it with little regards to roundtripping layers, but went back and placed everything in the correct layer (Mostly Walls.shp and details.shp).
 Most of my drawing is round tripping correctly. However one single element is not. I use a scatter brush in illustrator to make a sandy/cobble floor symbol which will resize and rotate at each application, so it appears random. This ONE element is placed in a different location then the rest of the roundtripped map. 
 You can look at the pictures I posted in the album on this site. The elements ARE round tripped, but they are offset. They also have a small dot located where they should be, but the floor symbol itself is about 5 inches to the right and a little below. 
 I have checked, and it is in the right layer in detail.shp. This can be confirmed because it matches the shape of the roundtripped passage, just offset. You can see when I highlight one of the symbols the dot in the right position also highlights. 
 I can shift the artwork, but this seems strange. Plus if I shift, those dots currently in the right position shift out to the left.
 I have thought to try the same roundtrip out of walls, but I have not done this yet. 
 Any ideas on what may be happening here?

 Thanks
 Howard

Hi LarryI am having a strange issue with round tripping. I have been trying to roundtrip a cave that unexpected looped after 3500 feet, so I have a 15 foot error I am trying to update my map to. I originally drew it with little regards to roundtripping layers, but went back and placed everything in the correct layer (Mostly Walls.shp and details.shp).Most of my drawing is round tripping correctly. However one single element is not. I use a scatter brush in illustrator to make a sandy/cobble floor symbol which will resize and rotate at each application, so it appears random. This ONE element is placed in a different location then the rest of the roundtripped map. You can look at the pictures I posted in the album on this site. The elements ARE round tripped, but they are offset. They also have a small dot located where they should be, but the floor symbol itself is about 5 inches to the right and a little below. I have checked, and it is in the right layer in detail.shp. This can be confirmed because it matches the shape of the roundtripped passage, just offset. You can see when I highlight one of the symbols the dot in the right position also highlights. I can shift the artwork, but this seems strange. Plus if I shift, those dots currently in the right position shift out to the left.I have thought to try the same roundtrip out of walls, but I have not done this yet. Any ideas on what may be happening here?ThanksHowardy:›I


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Date: 12 Aug 2017 01:41:44 +0000
Subject: Re: Round Tripping Error
From: [email protected]

I do have one correction. After looking at it deeper, I found that the Scatter brush symbols are NOT correctly round tripped, but the 'dot' in the passage WAS correctly roundtripped. The farther around the loop, the more these two points converge.
 Its as if the program picked up the hypothetical centerpoint of the scatter brush and moved it, but left the actual parts of the brush behind

 howard

I do have one correction.After looking at it deeper, I found that the Scatter brush symbols are NOT correctly round tripped, but the 'dot' in the passage WAS correctly roundtripped. The farther around the loop, the more these two points converge.Its as if the program picked up the hypothetical centerpoint of the scatter brush and moved it, but left the actual parts of the brush behindhoward


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Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2017 02:01:03 -0600
Subject: RE: [compass-users] Round Tripping Error
From: "Larry" 

Howard,

The whole concept of Round Tripping is based "Scalable Vector Graphics," or
SVG for short. SVG consists of sets of drawing elements, such as lines,
polygons, circles, text etc. When Compass round trips the data, it adjusts
these elements. Each type of element may be adjusted differently. Depending
on what type of element it is and what layer it is in, the element may be
scaled, rotated or offset or any combination of the three. 

Illustrator doesn't use SVG as its native format. However it does import and
export SVG. That means that Illustrator has to convert all of its own
drawing elements into an equivalent combination of SVG elements. In the case
of the "scatter brush" that you are using, it is possible that Illustrator
is using SVG elements that Compass doesn't know how to handle properly. This
seems likely since some of the elements are adjusted properly and some
aren't

I've also seen Illustrator violate SVG rules and move things out of the
proper layer when it exports an SVG file. I've even had to put code into
Compass that repairs these errors. 

I'm not exactly sure what is causing the problem your case. If you could
send me a copy of the file that illustrates the problem I could track down
exactly what elements are not being round-tripped proper. If the file is
particularly large, it would be even better if you could trim down the file
to the smallest possible example that shows the problem. Also, please
explain in as much detail as possible, exactly what the problem is so I can
zero in on exactly what your seeing.

Larry      

  _____  

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] 
Sent: Friday, August 11, 2017 6:52 PM
Subject: [compass-users] Round Tripping Error

Hi Larry

I am having a strange issue with round tripping. 

I have been trying to roundtrip a cave that unexpected looped after 3500
feet, so I have a 15 foot error I am trying to update my map to. I
originally drew it with little regards to roundtripping layers, but went
back and placed everything in the correct layer (Mostly Walls.shp and
details.shp).

Most of my drawing is round tripping correctly. However one single element
is not. I use a scatter brush in illustrator to make a sandy/cobble floor
symbol which will resize and rotate at each application, so it appears
random. This ONE element is placed in a different location then the rest of
the roundtripped map. 

You can look at the pictures I posted in the album on this site. The
elements ARE round tripped, but they are offset. They also have a small dot
located where they should be, but the floor symbol itself is about 5 inches
to the right and a little below. 

I have checked, and it is in the right layer in detail.shp. This can be
confirmed because it matches the shape of the roundtripped passage, just
offset. You can see when I highlight one of the symbols the dot in the right
position also highlights. 

I can shift the artwork, but this seems strange. Plus if I shift, those dots
currently in the right position shift out to the left.

I have thought to try the same roundtrip out of walls, but I have not done
this yet. 

Any ideas on what may be happening here?

Thanks

Howard

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Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2017 13:31:49 -0600
Subject: RE: [compass-users] Round Tripping Error
From: "Larry" 

Hi Howard,

I finally had a chance to look at your SVG files. I think I've fixed the
problem you were describing. There is a new version on the internet;
download it and see if it works for you.

Here are some notes on the changes I made.

1. The "scatter brush" brush you were using works by dropping a bunch of
small "ellipses" in the drawing. In the past, most people only used "paths"
to make cave drawings, so the SVG Exported didn't do anything with ellipses.
The new version morphs or moves ellipses depending on which layer it is in.
The same problem was fixed with rectangles and circles. 

It was a little tricky to figure out how to morph ellipses and rectangles.
Morphing can do strange things rectangles and ellipses, so all the morphing
routines do to these two figures is move, scale and rotate. It does not
distort them. 

2. I had some problems with the files you sent. The unmerged file, "Perfect
fall.svg" wouldn't load into any program I have. It wouldn't load into Adobe
Illustrator CS2, getting an error that says: "This SVG is invalid. Validate
it before opening." It wouldn't load into the Compass SVG Exporter, getting
an error that says: "End tag 'image' does not match start tag 'g'. Line
139465" It wouldn't load into Google Chrome, which has its own SVG renderer.

Strangely, the "Perfect Fall_Mrg.svg" didn't have any problems.

I traced the problem down to corruption in the file. The files had multiple
unmatched closing tags, all having to do with "" elements. Normally
the svg for this type of element would look like this:

(Image data...)

Instead, I found multiple instances that looked like this:

(Image data...)

The problem is that there are multiple copies of the ending tag 
that don't have a corresponding starting tage. 

I'm not sure where this problem came from. Compass doesn't manipulate the
 tag, so I doubt Compass is producing the problem. On the other hand,
I've see Illustrator do similar things.

The SVG Exporter is unable to fix this type of problem because it violates
the basic SVG structure and it is hard for a program to figure out what is
the best solution. In the end, I edited the files manually to be able to
look at them.

I have a fixed version of the file if you need it. 

Let me know if the changes solve your problem.

Larry

  _____  

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] 
Sent: Friday, August 11, 2017 6:52 PM
Subject: [compass-users] Round Tripping Error

Hi Larry

I am having a strange issue with round tripping. 

I have been trying to roundtrip a cave that unexpected looped after 3500
feet, so I have a 15 foot error I am trying to update my map to. I
originally drew it with little regards to roundtripping layers, but went
back and placed everything in the correct layer (Mostly Walls.shp and
details.shp).

Most of my drawing is round tripping correctly. However one single element
is not. I use a scatter brush in illustrator to make a sandy/cobble floor
symbol which will resize and rotate at each application, so it appears
random. This ONE element is placed in a different location then the rest of
the roundtripped map. 

You can look at the pictures I posted in the album on this site. The
elements ARE round tripped, but they are offset. They also have a small dot
located where they should be, but the floor symbol itself is about 5 inches
to the right and a little below. 

I have checked, and it is in the right layer in detail.shp. This can be
confirmed because it matches the shape of the roundtripped passage, just
offset. You can see when I highlight one of the symbols the dot in the right
position also highlights. 

I can shift the artwork, but this seems strange. Plus if I shift, those dots
currently in the right position shift out to the left.

I have thought to try the same roundtrip out of walls, but I have not done
this yet. 

Any ideas on what may be happening here?

Thanks

Howard

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Date: 08 Sep 2017 12:23:24 +0000
Subject: RE: [compass-users] Round Tripping Error
From: [email protected]

Larry Thanks - I just now noticed your message, so I had not looked into it yet. I will get into it this weekend and give it a try. I had not gone any further on the map due to other activities, so if it works, I will move on from there!

 Could  the corruptions in the SVG  be due to the fact that I linked scans to the AI drawing but did not include them? That would explain the issue coming out of Illustrator, not compass, and my not having the same issue, as scans are resident on my computer.

 Regardless, Thanks for this effort! I may be the only one using scatter brushes, but I have been advocating for them for some time. In several caves I work (Mona, Yucatan) there are acres of floor detail, and this is a great way to fill a lot of area with a 'symbol' that does not repeat or look placed..... (I have a powerpoint show at  http://www.cavecartography.com/Illustrator%20Brushes.ppt http://www.cavecartography.com/Illustrator%20Brushes.ppt  if you are interested in how/why)
  
 Thanks again
 Howard

LarryThanks - I just now noticed your message, so I had not looked into it yet. I will get into it this weekend and give it a try. I had not gone any further on the map due to other activities, so if it works, I will move on from there!Could  the corruptions in the SVG  be due to the fact that I linked scans to the AI drawing but did not include them? That would explain the issue coming out of Illustrator, not compass, and my not having the same issue, as scans are resident on my computer.Regardless, Thanks for this effort! I may be the only one using scatter brushes, but I have been advocating for them for some time. In several caves I work (Mona, Yucatan) there are acres of floor detail, and this is a great way to fill a lot of area with a 'symbol' that does not repeat or look placed..... (I have a powerpoint show at  http://www.cavecartography.com/Illustrator%20Brushes.ppt  if you are interested in how/why) Thanks againHoward#ygrps-yiv-1017954441 #ygrps-yiv-1017954441ACTIVITY
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Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2017 08:25:48 -0600
Subject: Re: [compass-users] Round Tripping Error
From: Derek Bristol 

I've had issues periodically when round-tripping. There's a fair amount of time involved whenever I round-trip so I don't do it that frequently. It's common that I do it once a year for some projects. Because of this I wrote down the steps (my personal workflow) to make the process a little more efficient and avoid certain problems. It's a workflow that's still being refined. I'm attaching it here in case it's of any use.

Derek Bristol
(303) 589-4469 (mobile)

 On Sep 8, 2017, at 6:23 AM, [email protected] [compass-users]  wrote:
 
 Larry
 
 Thanks - I just now noticed your message, so I had not looked into it yet. I will get into it this weekend and give it a try. I had not gone any further on the map due to other activities, so if it works, I will move on from there!
 
 Could  the corruptions in the SVG  be due to the fact that I linked scans to the AI drawing but did not include them? That would explain the issue coming out of Illustrator, not compass, and my not having the same issue, as scans are resident on my computer.
 
 Regardless, Thanks for this effort! I may be the only one using scatter brushes, but I have been advocating for them for some time. In several caves I work (Mona, Yucatan) there are acres of floor detail, and this is a great way to fill a lot of area with a 'symbol' that does not repeat or look placed..... (I have a powerpoint show at  http://www.cavecartography.com/Illustrator%20Brushes.ppt  if you are interested in how/why)
  
 Thanks again
 Howard

I've had issues periodically when round-tripping. There's a fair amount of time involved whenever I round-trip so I don't do it that frequently. It's common that I do it once a year for some projects. Because of this I wrote down the steps (my personal workflow) to make the process a little more efficient and avoid certain problems. It's a workflow that's still being refined. I'm attaching it here in case it's of any use. 

Derek Bristol(303) 589-4469 (mobile)On Sep 8, 2017, at 6:23 AM, [email protected] [compass-users] <[email protected]> wrote:

 
      
      LarryThanks - I just now noticed your message, so I had not looked into it yet. I will get into it this weekend and give it a try. I had not gone any further on the map due to other activities, so if it works, I will move on from there!Could  the corruptions in the SVG  be due to the fact that I linked scans to the AI drawing but did not include them? That would explain the issue coming out of Illustrator, not compass, and my not having the same issue, as scans are resident on my computer.Regardless, Thanks for this effort! I may be the only one using scatter brushes, but I have been advocating for them for some time. In several caves I work (Mona, Yucatan) there are acres of floor detail, and this is a great way to fill a lot of area with a 'symbol' that does not repeat or look placed..... (I have a powerpoint show at  http://www.cavecartography.com/Illustrator%20Brushes.ppt  if you are interested in how/why) Thanks againHoward


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Date: 08 Sep 2017 17:04:47 +0000
Subject: Re: [compass-users] Round Tripping Error
From: [email protected]

I was hoping for a Video.....

I was hoping for a Video.....


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Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2017 14:07:41 -0600
Subject: Re: [compass-users] Round Tripping Error
From: Derek Bristol 

Your generation needs to learn to read... kids these days. 

Derek Bristol
(303) 589-4469 (mobile)

 On Sep 8, 2017, at 11:04 AM, [email protected] [compass-users]  wrote:
 
 I was hoping for a Video.....

Your generation needs to learn to read... kids these days. Derek Bristol(303) 589-4469 (mobile)On Sep 8, 2017, at 11:04 AM, [email protected] [compass-users] <[email protected]> wrote:

 
      
      I was hoping for a Video.....


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Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2017 16:27:41 -0400
Subject: Re: [compass-users] Round Tripping Error
From: Luc Le Blanc 

Derek,

The time I had the most comments on a new Auriga release was when I made a
small video of its new features. It was quick to do: just a video grab of
the Palm emulator on my PC screen and voilAˇ! Easier and faster to
understand than a lot of text. More software should be documented that way.
I have always hoped some savvy users would make more videos as a
(task-oriented) user guide, but that never happened except for Brandon
Kowallis' excellent tutorials (what I supply is a screen-oriented user
reference manual, and I lack time to do more).

Regards,

2017-09-08 16:07 GMT-04:00 Derek Bristol [email protected]
[compass-users] :

 Your generation needs to learn to read... kids these days.

 Derek Bristol
 (303) 589-4469 (mobile)

 On Sep 8, 2017, at 11:04 AM, [email protected] [compass-users]  [email protected] wrote:

 I was hoping for a Video.....

Luc Le Blanc
http://www.speleo.qc.ca/Auriga

Derek,The time I had the most comments on a new Auriga release was when I made a small video of its new features. It was quick to do: just a video grab of the Palm emulator on my PC screen and voilAˇ! Easier and faster to understand than a lot of text. More software should be documented that way. I have always hoped some savvy users would make more videos as a (task-oriented) user guide, but that never happened except for Brandon Kowallis' excellent tutorials (what I supply is a screen-oriented user reference manual, and I lack time to do more).Regards,2017-09-08 16:07 GMT-04:00 Derek Bristol [email protected] [compass-users] <[email protected]>:

Your generation needs to learn to read... kids these days.AˇDerek Bristol(303) 589-4469 (mobile)On Sep 8, 2017, at 11:04 AM, [email protected] [compass-users] <[email protected]> wrote:

Aˇ
      
      I was hoping for a Video.....

-- Luc Le Blanchttp://www.speleo.qc.ca/Auriga

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Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2017 15:20:28 -0600
Subject: Re: [compass-users] Round Tripping Error
From: Derek Bristol 

I agree Luc. I have tentative plans to do some video tutorials on Compass, Walls, Illustrator and specifically round-tripping, but I might need to take a short break from caving to find the time. 

Derek Bristol
(303) 589-4469 (mobile)

 On Sep 8, 2017, at 2:27 PM, Luc Le Blanc [email protected] [compass-users]  wrote:
 
 Derek,
 
 The time I had the most comments on a new Auriga release was when I made a small video of its new features. It was quick to do: just a video grab of the Palm emulator on my PC screen and voilAˇ! Easier and faster to understand than a lot of text. More software should be documented that way. I have always hoped some savvy users would make more videos as a (task-oriented) user guide, but that never happened except for Brandon Kowallis' excellent tutorials (what I supply is a screen-oriented user reference manual, and I lack time to do more).
 
 Regards,
 
 2017-09-08 16:07 GMT-04:00 Derek Bristol [email protected] [compass-users] :
 
 Your generation needs to learn to read... kids these days. 
 
 Derek Bristol
 (303) 589-4469 (mobile)
 
 On Sep 8, 2017, at 11:04 AM, [email protected] [compass-users]  wrote:
  
 I was hoping for a Video.....
 
 -- 
 Luc Le Blanc
 http://www.speleo.qc.ca/Auriga

I agree Luc. I have tentative plans to do some video tutorials on Compass, Walls, Illustrator and specifically round-tripping, but I might need to take a short break from caving to find the time. Derek Bristol(303) 589-4469 (mobile)On Sep 8, 2017, at 2:27 PM, Luc Le Blanc [email protected] [compass-users] <[email protected]> wrote:

 
      
      Derek,The time I had the most comments on a new Auriga release was when I made a small video of its new features. It was quick to do: just a video grab of the Palm emulator on my PC screen and voilAˇ! Easier and faster to understand than a lot of text. More software should be documented that way. I have always hoped some savvy users would make more videos as a (task-oriented) user guide, but that never happened except for Brandon Kowallis' excellent tutorials (what I supply is a screen-oriented user reference manual, and I lack time to do more).Regards,2017-09-08 16:07 GMT-04:00 Derek Bristol [email protected] [compass-users] <[email protected]>:

Your generation needs to learn to read... kids these days. Derek Bristol(303) 589-4469 (mobile)On Sep 8, 2017, at 11:04 AM, [email protected] [compass-users] <[email protected]> wrote:

 
      
      I was hoping for a Video.....

-- Luc Le Blanchttp://www.speleo.qc.ca/Auriga

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Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2017 16:04:42 -0600
Subject: RE: [compass-users] Round Tripping Error
From: "Larry" 

Hi Howard,

 Could the corruptions in the SVG be due to the fact that I

 linked scans to the AI drawing but did not include them?

Maybe. It would explain why you're not getting the error, but it doesn't
explain what I see in the files. Looking at the files, the errors don't seem
to be related to the omitted files. 

The problem that I see is that the file contains unmatched tags. Normally,
you would see matched pairs of  and  in the SVG data.

If you were missing a file, that wouldn't cause a mismatched tag. The worse
you'd expect is the program giving an error saying it couldn't find the
file.

When I look at the raw file data, I can see places where there are external,
linked scans that I don't have and the code looks correct there. Here is an
example that appears to link to a file named "ED16A551.jpg": 

This code is correct, because it contains a matched pairs of  and
 tags. I don't get an error on this line of code. Instead, the place
where I see has patterns like this:

...data....

In this case, there are 10 ending-tags, and only one beginning-tag. That is
clearly an illegal condition and several programs I've tested flag it as an
error and abort.

This doesn't happen on every image in the file. In fact, the first example
of this problem occurs 35 images from the beginning. Others occur at 42 and
44 images from the beginning.

If I had to guess, I would say this is probably the result of Illustrator
not handling a delete or move operation correctly. For example, if you
deleted an image, Illustrator would have to remove the tag and all
associated information. If it forgot to remove the end-tag, then that would
leave a bunch of end-tags with no beginning tags.

 I may be the only one using scatter brushes, but I have been

 advocating for them for some time. 

The scatter-brushes actually create very simple SVG-objects. Each "droplet"
in the scatter pattern is a simple ellipse. None the cave maps had seen used
the ellipse, so it never occurred to me to morph them. I also didn't morph
rectanges and circles for the same reason. That was obviously a mistake
because it is perfectly predictable that cavers would want to use those
shapes. The new version fixes all of that.

Your power-point looks good!

Larry

  _____  

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] 
Sent: Friday, September 08, 2017 6:23 AM
Subject: RE: [compass-users] Round Tripping Error

Larry

Thanks - I just now noticed your message, so I had not looked into it yet. I
will get into it this weekend and give it a try. I had not gone any further
on the map due to other activities, so if it works, I will move on from
there!

Could  the corruptions in the SVG  be due to the fact that I linked scans to
the AI drawing but did not include them? That would explain the issue coming
out of Illustrator, not compass, and my not having the same issue, as scans
are resident on my computer.

Regardless, Thanks for this effort! I may be the only one using scatter
brushes, but I have been advocating for them for some time. In several caves
I work (Mona, Yucatan) there are acres of floor detail, and this is a great
way to fill a lot of area with a 'symbol' that does not repeat or look
placed..... (I have a powerpoint show at
http://www.cavecartography.com/Illustrator%20Brushes.ppt  if you are
interested in how/why)

Thanks again

Howard

v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}

st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }


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Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2017 14:01:21 -0600
Subject: RE: [compass-users] Round Tripping Error
From: "Larry" 

Howard,

I have a new version of the SVG Exporter that is posted on the Compass web
site. Here is a list of changes that I've made:

1. The program now handles the scatter brush correctly. I finally found a
way to deal the ellipse issue that involves no compromises. For a while, I
thought I could only move the ellipses without rotating them. That meant
that the ellipses would only move to the new position; they wouldn't rotate
to maintain their orientation relative to the passage. With the new version,
the not only move correctly, but their rotated into the right orientation.
The same fix also applies to rectangles.

2. I continue to get errors loading your original "Perfect Fall.svg" file.
These problems occur with Illustrator, Inkscape and the SVG Exporter. 

You said that maybe the problem was caused by the fact that I don't have the
underlying sketch maps. That might explain Inkscape and Illustrator, but it
wouldn't explain SVG Exporter. The SVG Exporter doesn't care anything about
the sketch maps and doesn't try to load them, so I doubt this is the
explanation.

When I actually look at the files I see clear violation of the SVG syntax.
SVG and XML tags come in pairs. A beginning tag must be matched by an ending
tag later in the data. In this case, there are extra ending tags:

.... data ....

The SVG Exporter uses a Windows library to do basic processing of the SVG
file. When it encounters the error, it gives a generic error message that
doesn't help you find and fix the problem. 

As a result, the SVG Exporter now traps these errors and gives a warning
before it starts loading the data. Trapping the error doesn't prevent the
Windows library from aborting when it hits the error, but it does retain
detailed information about exactly where the errors occurred. As a result,
there is now a special tool that displays the errors. Since this particular
error has to be corrected manually, the program provides you with its own
text editor that will take you directly to the point in the data where the
error occurred. You can then edit the raw SVG and fix each problem.

If you run into the same problem with your copy of "Perfect Fall.svg", I
already have a fixed version of this file. If it turns out that you need it,
I can send you copy.

Let me know if the program solves the problem for you.

Larry